Farmers and Why we Play

[SenorPhrog]

Farmers.  You might've just cringed when I said that word.  There is nothing many people hate more than professional farmers.  Don't believe me?  Do a search with the word "farmers" on these forums.   Slide takes a look at this issue and explains a little bit about the secondary market.The Secondary Market and the Farmers who Own itWe all play MMO's for a reason. Some people even form longstanding loyalties to certain MMO's, but it begs the question, "Why?" What keeps people coming back for more? Savanja tackles this question by tapping her own personal experience.

The Dangling CarrotLet us know what you think.

[Meeker]

Unfortunately Slide makes the same mistake many of us make when discussing farming, plat transactions  and duping. He equates them. They aren't at all the same. Duping harms the economy by creating gold and flooding the economy with it. Farming for gold and items adds the gold and items to the economy at the highest rate allowed by the game design. It doesn't harm the economy. The economy allows for it. In fact, the economy was designed with farming in mind. Spawn rates, body drops are implemented with the understanding that farming will occur.

[SenorPhrog]

Slide gave his opinion that  professional farming hurts the economy as does duping.  I tend to agree with him, but I really appreciate your opinion on it.  :smileyhappy:

[jhr]

"the economy was designed with farming in mind" - MeekermePlease substantiate that assertion!  Since I assume you didn't design it, how do you know this?

[Meeker]

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jhr4n wrote:Please substantiate that assertion!  Since I assume you didn't design it, how do you know this?

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I investigated the evidence. Instance lockout timers are one way in which Devs control farming by dictating the rate at which one character can kill certain mobs. Loot drops and vendor prices, such as those on Fear Tainted Isle, cotinue to be adjusted due to their effect on the economy. Spawn rates control how often a mob exists to be killed, thereby controling farming.  Also, i am one of the few players who assume that the Devs know what they're doing. If I can figure out that the most effective economic model should be based on the assumption that every mob will be killed as soon as it spawns and that the model should be adjusted down from there as needed, i have faith that they figured it out before i did.

[Tradeskill_Addict]

duping hurts the economy by mudflating and  thus hurts all players.

 

farming hinders casual gamers (and even raiders can be casual gamers) thus hurting still a lot of players.

 

so these may not be equally bad but bad nonetheless.

 

just my 2 copper

 

 

[*SLiDE*]

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Meekerme wrote:

Unfortunately Slide makes the same mistake many of us make when discussing farming, plat transactions  and duping. He equates them. They aren't at all the same. Duping harms the economy by creating gold and flooding the economy with it. Farming for gold and items adds the gold and items to the economy at the highest rate allowed by the game design. It doesn't harm the economy. The economy allows for it. In fact, the economy was designed with farming in mind. Spawn rates, body drops are implemented with the understanding that farming will occur.

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I didn't overlook what you're saying Meekerme.  I understand that it is technically allowed and that the game is built this way, however it is still unnatural.  The only reason mobs get farmed the way they do is so that a certain amount of gold can be made per hour to be sold later.  I mean... if you looked at a farmer or bots kill count, how many "regular guy" players would that equal? 10? 20? 50? more?

Selling the money they make afterwords makes players who normally wouldn't be wealthy, wealthy.  It's a good way to cheapen the in game dollar.

 

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Tradeskill_Addict wrote:

duping hurts the economy by mudflating and  thus hurts all players.

 

farming hinders casual gamers (and even raiders can be casual gamers) thus hurting still a lot of players.

 

so these may not be equally bad but bad nonetheless.

 

just my 2 copper

 

 

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Yes.

[Malaka]

My view on this was touched on in the first article and that is the guilt of those who buy the plat from the farmers.  The simple fact is the ONLY reason the plat farmers are in the game spoiling peoples fun and enjoyment is that they make a living out of it, take away the profit and you take away the reason to do it. IMHO Sony should not only ban the accounts of those who farm the plat to sell but also those who buy the plat off them.   Yes the plat farmers will just open up another accounts and carry on as normal, the player who has his 60th lvl account closed will not just start again and will quit.  After a while the farmers will run out of people to buy the plat and will simply give up or move onto another game where they can make a living.I have to say that the farmers are after all just enterprising people who have found an new way to make a living and maybe we should not be that harsh on them, I am sure we have people playing EQ that make a living in far more damaging ways.  However the ones that really mess thing up and those people who take the easy road... I want item X should I go out and hunt for it myself, or put in the effort to earn the in game cash to buy it... NO I am going to CHEAT and hand over some cash and buy myself to the top of the game.  Now its these people I find harder to live with than relevantly innocent people that have found and innovative way to make a living AND play a game at the same time---- sounds like heaven to me

[*SLiDE*]

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Malakath wrote:

My view on this was touched on in the first article and that is the guilt of those who buy the plat from the farmers.  The simple fact is the ONLY reason the plat farmers are in the game spoiling peoples fun and enjoyment is that they make a living out of it, take away the profit and you take away the reason to do it. IMHO Sony should not only ban the accounts of those who farm the plat to sell but also those who buy the plat off them.   Yes the plat farmers will just open up another accounts and carry on as normal, the player who has his 60th lvl account closed will not just start again and will quit.  After a while the farmers will run out of people to buy the plat and will simply give up or move onto another game where they can make a living.I have to say that the farmers are after all just enterprising people who have found an new way to make a living and maybe we should not be that harsh on them, I am sure we have people playing EQ that make a living in far more damaging ways.  However the ones that really mess thing up and those people who take the easy road... I want item X should I go out and hunt for it myself, or put in the effort to earn the in game cash to buy it... NO I am going to CHEAT and hand over some cash and buy myself to the top of the game.  Now its these people I find harder to live with than relevantly innocent people that have found and innovative way to make a living AND play a game at the same time---- sounds like heaven to me

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And there ARE people who farm/play without botting and sell plat... but it's still against the license agreement to buy and/or sell in game items unless you play on a station exchange server. So people who buy plat are just as guilty.

Yeah... there are way worse jobs out there ...

 

[Kuld]

I guess in EQ2 I never understood how farmers really hurt anyone.  Ive ran into many of them, and if they were killing mobs I needed, I would ask to join...if they ignored me (typically), I would just take the mobs I needed.  Everyone has as much chance at any mob in the game as anyone else, the idea of 'camping' is always going to be around, but that is more of a practice in respect and coutesy then anything else.  I wont just run up and snag mobs I need without at least asking to group, I know some farmers do that, and they suck for it, but the avg power-gamer does the same thing, so should we criticize them too?

I personaly dont like farmers, but I just dont see how they are hurting ppl.  Duping is something totally diff, has nothing to do with farming.

[SenorPhrog]

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*SLiDE* wrote:

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Malakath wrote:

My view on this was touched on in the first article and that is the guilt of those who buy the plat from the farmers.  The simple fact is the ONLY reason the plat farmers are in the game spoiling peoples fun and enjoyment is that they make a living out of it, take away the profit and you take away the reason to do it. IMHO Sony should not only ban the accounts of those who farm the plat to sell but also those who buy the plat off them.   Yes the plat farmers will just open up another accounts and carry on as normal, the player who has his 60th lvl account closed will not just start again and will quit.  After a while the farmers will run out of people to buy the plat and will simply give up or move onto another game where they can make a living.I have to say that the farmers are after all just enterprising people who have found an new way to make a living and maybe we should not be that harsh on them, I am sure we have people playing EQ that make a living in far more damaging ways.  However the ones that really mess thing up and those people who take the easy road... I want item X should I go out and hunt for it myself, or put in the effort to earn the in game cash to buy it... NO I am going to CHEAT and hand over some cash and buy myself to the top of the game.  Now its these people I find harder to live with than relevantly innocent people that have found and innovative way to make a living AND play a game at the same time---- sounds like heaven to me

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And there ARE people who farm/play without botting and sell plat... but it's still against the license agreement to buy and/or sell in game items unless you play on a station exchange server. So people who buy plat are just as guilty.

Yeah... there are way worse jobs out there ...

 

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Is this you asking for another raise? Ok...ok  TWO slim jims.  Thats my final offer.

[Scathi]

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*SLiDE* wrote:

I didn't overlook what you're saying Meekerme.  I understand that it is technically allowed and that the game is built this way, however it is still unnatural.  The only reason mobs get farmed the way they do is so that a certain amount of gold can be made per hour to be sold later.  I mean... if you looked at a farmer or bots kill count, how many "regular guy" players would that equal? 10? 20? 50? more?

Selling the money they make afterwords makes players who normally wouldn't be wealthy, wealthy.  It's a good way to cheapen the in game dollar.

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How is it unnatural?  What is one of the primary goals in any MMO?  To progress.  If a mob drops loot that is superior to other mobs, it is perfectly within reason that you will kill that mob more than you will kill others so that you can progress faster.  That is about as natural as you can get in a fantasy world that exists only on your computer.

You also make the mistake of assuming that the only people who are farming are those who are intent on reselling their profit in order to make real-world cash.  I am perfectly comfortable admitting that I farm.  I farm gold, I farm items (some to equip, others to sell), and I farm spells.  Do I sell my spoils in the real world?  Of course not.  I play to better my character, not someone else's.  This is a perfectly acceptable way to progress my character and harms absolutely no one unless I deliberately prevent others from having the same opportunity (which I don't, if I see competition I will either work out a deal or go elsewhere).

As to the buying and selling of plat cheapening the in game dollar, that is completely absurd.  All the buying and selling of plat does is shift the hands that the money is in.  If you sell me 100 plat, you lose 100 plat and I gain 100 plat.  Nothing changed except for the fact that you are 100 plat poorer and I am 100 plat richer.  The economy does not suffer as the amount of money in the game has remained the same.  Similar to how if I buy a breastplate for the same amount, I am that much poorer and the merchant is that much richer.  This is assuming of course that the money was not duped as I think we all agree that duping is unexcusable and harms everyone.  All the buying and selling of in game money does is cheapen the accomplishment of earning your plat, it does not cheapen the money itself.

 

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*SLiDE* wrote:

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Tradeskill_Addict wrote:

duping hurts the economy by mudflating and  thus hurts all players. 

 

farming hinders casual gamers (and even raiders can be casual gamers) thus hurting still a lot of players.

 

so these may not be equally bad but bad nonetheless.

 

just my 2 copper

 

 

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Yes.

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How does farming hinder casual gamers?  It doesn't hinder anyone any more than two groups trying to complete the same quests would.  You either work out an arrangement to the satisfaction of both parties, or you have a race to the mob(s).  Either way the end result is the exact same as if you were competing against non-farmers.

[Aubalys]

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Malakath wrote:

IMHO Sony should not only ban the accounts of those who farm the plat to sell but also those who buy the plat off them.   Yes the plat farmers will just open up another accounts and carry on as normal, the player who has his 60th lvl account closed will not just start again and will quit.  After a while the farmers will run out of people to buy the plat and will simply give up or move onto another game where they can make a living.

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Well, if we are going to follow that logic, shouldn't we also ban the people who are selling the items that the people want to buy, therefore causing them to buy the play, therefore allowing the plat-farmers to make money this way?  For exmple, I just sold a shield for 1plat.   Now was that plat bought?  Or did the person who bought it actually adventure for the money?  I have no way of telling, do you?So following my line of reasoning, how do you think SOE can tell who bought the plat from the plat farmers?  The plat farmers sell to the large plat sellers, and the plat sellers then sell the play to the players.  Lets think about this.  A smart plat farmer would transfer the plat to at least one alt first, to muddy up the water.  The Sellers have many toons to deliver the plat, further muddying up the water.   Lets even take it one step further.  On both ends, the sellers and the farmers, it would be smart of them to start a guild, just to have use of the guild bank.  The farmer to go farm the plat, and place it in the guild bank.  You then create a new account, and max toons on that accound.   Rotate through them when making delivery of the plat by removing the money from the guild bank, and making delivery to the plat seller.  Then, in turn the plat seller would do the same, but making belivery to the buyer.NOw, with all that said, how many accounts does SOE have playing EQII?  I dont know, but I would have to guess that it is in the hundreds of thousands, at least.   Do I have any volunteers to search through all those hundreds of thousands of accounts, loking for a relationship between players like I have described above?  Or perhaps an even more convoluted association than that?  No?  Didnt think so.    And I say THAT is why SOE does not ban the farmers, sellers, buyers, etc.DISCLAIMER:  a.)  I am not a plat farmer.                        b.)  I am not a plat seller.                        c.)  I am not  a plat buyer.                        d.)  I have no intention of becoming any of the above.                        e.)  I do not work for SOE.                        f.)   Ummmm, I will probably think of more later, but thats it for now... 

[Tradeskill_Addict]

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Scathian wrote:

How does farming hinder casual gamers?  It doesn't hinder anyone any more than two groups trying to complete the same quests would.  You either work out an arrangement to the satisfaction of both parties, or you have a race to the mob(s).  Either way the end result is the exact same as if you were competing against non-farmers.

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the type of farmers we are talking about dont PLAY the game, for them its a JOB

and employes and entepreneurs tend NOT to share their source of income. I also never heard of players questing the same mob TRAINING each other

i wish you luck asking a farmer to team up with you if you want a mob he's camping 8 hours a day......

[Scathi]

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Tradeskill_Addict wrote:

the type of farmers we are talking about dont PLAY the game, for them its a JOB

and employes and entepreneurs tend NOT to share their source of income. I also never heard of players questing the same mob TRAINING each other

i wish you luck asking a farmer to team up with you if you want a mob he's camping 8 hours a day......

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That may be the type of farmer that you are talking about, but at every point in this and almost every other thread it is made abundantly clear that they are referring to farmers in general by the fact that they are either unwilling or unable to differentiate between the two.  When they refer to people who farm for their character's progression they say "farmers" and when they refer to those people who farm for the purpose of selling for real world money they say "farmers".  They are not the same.  Farming is not a problem, and attempting to make it seem to be one is irresponsible and ignorant.  Selling plat for real money obviously is a problem if for no other reason than it is breaking the user agreement that we all agree to any time we log into the game.

Just 'cause though, I actually have been trained by people who were simply questing.  People sometimes break the rules in order to progress at the expense of others.  It does and will always happen despite whether the person is doing it for real world profit, or simply to ding that last level.

Plat selling and farming are not the same.  Botting and Boxxing are not the same.  I am firmly convinced that eventually people will either learn to differentiate between the two, or learn to specify to which they mean.  The easiest means to do this is to call what they are doing for what it is; plat selling, duping, farming, botting, boxxing, etc.  Of that list of things, some harm the game and/or the economy and others don't no matter what spin people try to put on it.

[Meeker]

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Scathian wrote:

Plat selling and farming are not the same.  Botting and Boxxing are not the same.  I am firmly convinced that eventually people will either learn to differentiate between the two, or learn to specify to which they mean.  The easiest means to do this is to call what they are doing for what it is; plat selling, duping, farming, botting, boxxing, etc.  Of that list of things, some harm the game and/or the economy and others don't no matter what spin people try to put on it.

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Interestingly, this is exactly what i said in my first post.

"Unfortunately Slide makes the same mistake many of us make when discussing farming, plat transactions  and duping. He equates them. They aren't at all the same."

Duping harms the economy.

Farming does not.

Saying otherwise furthers the spread of misinformation.

 

[*SLiDE*]

lol.. ok ok ok... look.The main theme of the article here was to touch on the secondary market.Farming to sell is against the rules. Farming to farm if that's your thing... fine.Buying in game dollars for real dollars... against the rules.Buying in game items for in game money... ok.Farming is one source of making real money for fake coin.Duping is one source of making real money for fake coin.There exists a secondary market.  Whether you think it harms the economy or not is up to you. I think its an unnatural form of making people wealthy... a cheat if you will.  AND once again... against the EULA.I still stand by what I wrote.and on that note, it's late and I'm off to bed. :smileywink:

Message Edited by *SLiDE* on 04-05-200612:56 AM

[Ratslave]

I dont think sony going to say no to money. I think they laught when u said close the platframer and buyers account...will never happen. Plus i think sony starting to see what kind of money that can be made out there seel Plat and items(station ezchange servers...wink wink). If you look into the world records the money spended buying Plat, items, and account rank norath like 56 highest grossing country....LOL. Lets not forget Sony all about the money and that was drives where this game and all other MMO games. They dont make money game goes into trash.

[Meeker]

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I still stand by what I wrote.

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As do i.

[SenorPhrog]

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Meekerme wrote:

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Scathian wrote:

Plat selling and farming are not the same.  Botting and Boxxing are not the same.  I am firmly convinced that eventually people will either learn to differentiate between the two, or learn to specify to which they mean.  The easiest means to do this is to call what they are doing for what it is; plat selling, duping, farming, botting, boxxing, etc.  Of that list of things, some harm the game and/or the economy and others don't no matter what spin people try to put on it.

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Interestingly, this is exactly what i said in my first post.

"Unfortunately Slide makes the same mistake many of us make when discussing farming, plat transactions  and duping. He equates them. They aren't at all the same."

Duping harms the economy.

Farming does not.

Saying otherwise furthers the spread of misinformation.

 

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Whether farming huts the economy or not, can be debated in my mind.  As Slide stated though, this wasn't the scope of his article.  I had actually planned an article strictly on the pros and cons farming, but Fan Faire kind of snuck up on me. 

[Meeker]

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Radar-X wrote:

 

Whether farming huts the economy or not, can be debated in my mind.  As Slide stated though, this wasn't the scope of his article.  I had actually planned an article strictly on the pros and cons farming, but Fan Faire kind of snuck up on me. 

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Slide's point was fairly obvious, but thak you for clarifying it again. The point that i made in my first reply still stands. Equating plat farming, plat selling and duping furthers the spread of misinformation since they are not at all the same.

Wheter farming is "unnatural" or harms the economy isn't really up for debate since the game is designed to handle even the most rampant farming. In fact, farming is, in some aspects, encouraged as anyone who has completed the PGT or Sword of Thunder HQs can tell you. If we were going to debate the nature of farming shouldn't we start with accurate information?

Message Edited by Meekerme on 04-05-200610:34 AM

[Tebos]

Interesting thread, though I did not read every post, I got the jest of it. At anyrate, in my EQ1 days, the fastest way that I was able to accumulate platinum coin, was to buy low and sell high, in-game items. I would accumulate anywhere between 200k to 500k of platinum, in a week time period, through the use of the Bazaar zone and character merchants. Server wide channels were also a great avenue to acquire low setting items. In the early years, buying low and selling high was mainly limited to those zones that were used for buying/selling through /ooc channel.

I am happy to report that I don't have the desire to do so in EQII. I've also come to the realization that the in-game mechanics and item offerings hinders that aspect of gaining large amounts of coin, then what EQ 1 has to offer.

 

Message Edited by Tebos on 04-07-200611:09 AM