Penny Arcade bashed EQ2

[Aristac]

After reading Penny Arcade's response to John Smedely, they lost my respect.

 

No one with any maturity uses language like that in public. How can Mr. Art Critic give an honest review of what is art and what is not, when he has a mouth like that? True critics don't use  "F.... and S...";  that is so childish. Comedians do, so perhaps that what these guys really are. Comedians - Not to be taken seriously.

 

I find Penny Arcade to be childish and not at all funny.

 

I play both WoW and EQ2. I do not like anime type graphics and I don't want to play an MMORPG looking like a cartoon. Each to their own, but this drift toward anime graphics is not grabbing my attention and I'm sure a lot of players agree. Take for example RF, which is just being released. Garbage graphics.

 

We like EQ2 graphics for their realism, and I don't like Penny Arcade for their filthy mouths. The language, at least to me, negated anything they have ever written as being taken seriously. I can't take someone talking like a 10 year old in WoW, seriously.

 

Perhaps for their next article, they can do a write up on Chuck Norris.

[KinMorbidreamer]

I've never been to the PA site before today..and rest assured I won't be returning

Biased opinions that are aggressively forced down people's throats aren't worth the time it takes to read them, or listen to

[Kai'va Arros]

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KinMorbidreamer wrote:

and rest assured I won't be returning

Biased opinions that are aggressively forced down people's throats

When fanboys clash, Intelligence is the only casualty

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How are you not getting that if by following the first part there, it completely negates the second? I call B.S. Sorry, its the internet, nothing is 'forced down your throat.' You simply follow the 'no return' policy you have adopted and your issues are solved.And please, save the poor attempt at profundity.

Message Edited by Kai'va Arroska on 02-21-200612:43 PM

[Pyrrhon]

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Kai'va Arroska wrote:

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KinMorbidreamer wrote:

and rest assured I won't be returning

Biased opinions that are aggressively forced down people's throats

When fanboys clash, Intelligence is the only casualty

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How are you not getting that if by following the first part there, it completely negates the second? I call B.S. Sorry, its the internet, nothing is 'forced down your throat.' You simply follow the 'no return' policy you have adopted and your issues are solved.And please, save the poor attempt at profundity.

Message Edited by Kai'va Arroska on 02-21-200612:43 PM

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I thought it was rather clever.

 

And I think you're reading his words a little too anally here. He was simply stating that the opinions expressed on PA were aggressive -- saying "forced down people's throats", in common parlance, does not actually *mean* physically forcing something down someone's throat, as I'm sure you know. It's a euphemism for aggression.

 

I see how you might have read him as contradicting himself, but you must give people some license for using idioms. You'll be regularly frustrated if you do not.

[daboa]

You know PA though i never read them is almost right about the lack of real creativity put into the game. I do feel that the main part of EQ2 is just a copy and paste from what the original developers of EQ1 created and designed, there was art there imagination.  Alot of the times while i play EQ2 i just notice a lack luster of creativity and less careing on Sony's part.  They really have turned into the big uncaring bussiness they describe in the PA article.  I do disagree however on the lack of imagination, it is there hidden, by what sony "thinks" you want to see.  But its there. there story especialy, they have done i think an awsome job sicking to there story line and do create quite enthralling story aspects that really are interesting to read.

Another aspect that seems to prove PA's point is the constant changing of the game it seems they just change it at will to tests crap out.  No sticking to there guns no real testing or heart going on just constant change to hopefully satify the seemingly increaeing ADHD population.

But PA is just a tool of the people they also post what they want others to hear, what they think is "popular" or just to get the reveiw for being the basher, they also have no real heart behind there stories there mindless creations to get publicity, just like there fundraisers, sure they help sick kids, but in the end there PR items to gain respect.

 

At the end of the day i play EQ2 cause >>>>>>>I<<<<<< have fun playing it, who gives a foofy puppies collar what others think. WoW isent fun EQ2 is fun for me, so i play EQ2

[Frippen]

    I had played eq1for awhile and had a few good characters and when WoW came out I thought that I would jump on the bandwagon and try it out.  I played WoW for about 1 year and really got bored.  Everyone looked the same.  Hey there is a druid with that same armor with sticks coming out of the shoulders, oh there is the priest wearing a ... robe.  Wow, no pun intended.  Who's up for going to Molten Core for the umpteenth time.... Oh boy, yeah, that's what I call fun.  How about that level 60 rogue  ganking your level 15 cloth wearing mage/priest then laughing at you like he performed some feat, woohoo yeah that showed me.  Waiting in a queue just to get on your server, ummm I have better things to do.  Best of all how about all of that mature talk while in your main city.  Oh, and I just love to be in a guild and watch it fall apart because someone who is running the guild doesn't like something and disbands everyone (yes, it happened to me).   I got fed up with WoW and thought that since I played eq1 for awhile I would try eq2...    I started to have fun again.  Many more classes/races to choose from, the game really doesn't look bad.  As a matter of fact I think they look great!  But hey, when you are playing, how much attention are you really paying to the graphics anyhow?  I played eq1 with their block like characters when it first came out and it was fun.  The people are much friendlier/more mature.  I love the mentoring system as well.  Tradeskilling is much better even if they do dumb it down with the KoS expansion.  There is a LOT more to do in eq2 versus WoW.  Tons more quests, solo dungeons and team dungeons to go to.  I don't regret making my way back to SOE land at all.  I closed my WoW account with a month left on it and won't be going back.  As far as those WoW fanboys making their little cartoon...  Big deal, they aren't giving an educated opinion anyhow since they really didn't play the game.  Let em go back to playing what they draw...  Cartoons.

[Shirlyn]

I *used* to check PA every day, for the new posts, and the comics m-w-f. I can tell you, I won't be going back.Any one that reads PA on a regular basis knows that they're WoW fanbois. Its obvious. They also play alliance characters (something else I noticed when reading one of Gabe's posts). But frankly, the piece on EQII recently was a very low blow, and now I find out that WoW webpage linked to that review.Sorry. PA and Blizzard just lost all my respect.I don't play WoW because I don't like the graphics. I did play their demo, but couldnt' get into it. I'm sure its a great game, but not for me. If Gabe and Tycho don't like EQII, so be it. But that review was over the top and rather disgusting to me, and not because I'm an EQII fangirl

[Kai'va Arros]

The stupid thread that wouldn't die.

[KinMorbidreamer]

contradicting myself? lol

 

I was merely using the second sentence to support my reasoning for the first...no need to get all uppity.

 

Sorry man..but its the internet, deal with it

[Pyrrhon]

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Kai'va Arroska wrote:The stupid thread that wouldn't die.

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Let me remind you of something you said in this very thread:"Sorry, its the internet, nothing is 'forced down your throat.' You simply follow the 'no return' policy you have adopted and your issues are solved."Sorry, why are you still here? Oh, that's right, to make random snarky comments at people you don't know.

[Iagan the Swart]

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Sabrosia wrote:

You also  have to wonder why there's over 5 million players playing WoW; and not even 500,000 playing EQ2.  Sure, some of it is because of the type of game WoW is, some if it is because it's from Blizzard, blah blah blah...   But one of the biggest reasons more people play WoW than EQ2, is because EQ2's engine requires a gaming machine from hell to play.  WoW's doesn't.

If I could combine WoW's graphics, with EQ2's "difficulty" (ie. you don't hit 60 i

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I am curious.  Where are you getting your numbers?  I know Blizzard is fond of its 5,000,000 so I know where you found that one.  However, I have never seen any subscription numbers for EQ2.  The best information I have seen is EQ2Census, and that does not give an accurate assessment of the number of subscribers.  The latest count of toons on EQ2Census shows a total of 1,417,726 toons on all servers.  That gives us a total subscription count somewhere between 141,772 and 1,417,726.  Obviously, either extreme is incorrect.  But we cannot draw any additional conclusions without more information. Can you point us to your source information please?

[Skean]

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Frippen wrote:    Waiting in a queue just to get on your server

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There are two reasons I never tried WoW, and that one's #1.  The other was that I never really got into the Warcraft series. 

The look and feel of WoW doesn't bother me, although it's not my preference.  I prefer the more realistic look (although like many others I would have opted for a brighter look than a pure historical one; as with SCA reenactors, nobody wants to play the grungy-looking serf.)

As for the PA guys:  Don't worry, as the number of people who have exhausted their interest in WoW grows (naturally over time) cartoonists will follow.  They've got to write about what's popular, and right now in pure subscriber count WoW is comfortably positioned.

 

[Raveller]

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http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/02/15#1139992380http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/02/15#1140015960http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/02/15

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The 'article' reads like the sophomoric ramblings of a precocious twelve year-old.

[ironman2000]

I had never heard of Penny-Arcade before, and now I understand why.  I don't think i'll be looking at them again any time soon.

[Hur]

Ive also played wow, and am playing eq2 (no expansions though) and i agree that the art is "steril".thats not to say it isnt good, just that there is no life to it for me.  horses for instance, are beutiful, but coupled with very crappy animations, they are just "dead" to me... i dont think that im on a horse, I think that im on a graphical representation of one.  in wow, the horses felt more real, because the underlying animations were.the same goes for carpets... everyone riding a carpet has the same stupid "hey im alladin!" pose, thats totaly unnatural unless your doing 30 miles per hour.That said, the review was heavily biased and out of line.oh... an no, sienfeld inst funny.... because slapstick isnt funny.  To understand why people think that way, its really simple... if you have to contrive a situation, then its not funny... if it could really happen, then it is..... it goes back to believability... I have to think that something could happen before the situation can be funny to me.anyway... PA needs to consider their position, and maybe post a real review, instead of their "complaints".

[DrkVsr]

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Hurk_ wrote:the same goes for carpets... everyone riding a carpet has the same stupid "hey im alladin!" pose, thats totaly unnatural unless your doing 30 miles per hour.

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Heh heh, ah've said that mahself, would look better sitting down (don't know how that would work in combat, haven't even tried fighting from horseback yet)

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Hurk_ wrote:oh... an no, sienfeld inst funny.... because slapstick isnt funny.  To understand why people think that way, its really simple... if you have to contrive a situation, then its not funny... if it could really happen, then it is..... it goes back to believability... I have to think that something could happen before the situation can be funny to me.

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Slapstick can be funny, Seinfeld was neither slapstick nor funny, Charlie Chaplin was both

[Trajaian]

Ok, for what i's worth, here are my thoughts:

1. Who the heck is Penny Arcade?

2. Obviously some 20 something WoW players.

3. Having played both games and CoH extensively, I have cancelled my other subscriptions, and am in Norrath to stay.

4. I love the graphics. If i liked cartoons, I would play WoW or CoH.

5. Unlike WoW, people here are more mature players, not wrapped around an axle on loot and power leveling.

6. I really enjoy the rich lore of the game.

7. Who the heck cares what they think?

8. Another 8 months until WoW's first expansion?

I am now off my soapbox.

Atado Ta'Drel

[merula]

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Radar-X wrote: They are also however in a influential position that might be considered journalism and that requires a little bit of integrity.  I found almost none in any of their statements. 

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I found this statement hilarious. Journalism and integrity? Can you say oxymoron?

So some of you are upset because a comic bashed a game you love. Big whoop. I love EQ2 and play constantly and I thought the comic was quite funny. Have you ever read a newspaper? Some things called political cartoons? They constantly bash our president/congress/government in general. I find those hilarious as well. It's called satire. It's for entertainment. If you don't like it, don't read it. So they bashed EQ2. A lot of you are bashing them now. What's the difference?

 

Note: This was not directed towards you Radar-X. I just used your quote because I about fell out of my chair laughing when I saw that you put journalism and integrity in the same sentence. :smileywink:

[Lofwe]

Let me preface my post by making the following caveats:

 

1.  I am new to Everquest II.  I started with the Trial of the Isle free trial, and only recently upgraded to the full product.

2.  I am currenlty and intend to stay an active WoW player.

3.  I am not an artist.  I have dabbled in 3D renderings, but there are plenty of people out there that can make 3D art.  I'm not one of those people.

4.  Preface and caveat are the biggest words I'll use in the post.

 

As stated, I came to EQII from World of Warcraft, looking for a change.  I started with the free trial, gave it some thought, and purchased KoS when it came out, as that was the easiest way to acquire the full install of EQ2 as well (currently do not have DoF).

 

There are things about both games that I like and dislike.  Obviously I have firmer opinions regarding WoW as I have played that game longer, but there are some things in EQII that will strike the beginning player right from the get-go.  I'll focus on the art as that is the main point of this thread.

 

Environment Art in

[Lofwe]

Let me preface my post by making the following caveats:

 

1.  I am new to Everquest II.  I started with the Trial of the Isle free trial, and only recently upgraded to the full product.

2.  I am currenlty and intend to stay an active WoW player.

3.  I am not an artist.  I have dabbled in 3D renderings, but there are plenty of people out there that can make 3D art.  I'm not one of those people.

4.  Preface and caveat are the biggest words I'll use in the post.

 

As stated, I came to EQII from World of Warcraft, looking for a change.  I started with the free trial, gave it some thought, and purchased KoS when it came out, as that was the easiest way to acquire the full install of EQ2 as well (currently do not have DoF).

 

There are things about both games that I like and dislike.  Obviously I have firmer opinions regarding WoW as I have played that game longer, but there are some things in EQII that will strike the beginning player right from the get-go.  I'll focus on the art as that is the main point of this thread.

 

Environment Art in World o

[Lofwe]

Let me preface my post by making the following caveats:

 

1.  I am new to Everquest II.  I started with the Trial of the Isle free trial, and only recently upgraded to the full product.

2.  I am currenlty and intend to stay an active WoW player.

3.  I am not an artist.  I have dabbled in 3D renderings, but there are plenty of people out there that can make 3D art.  I'm not one of those people.

4.  Preface and caveat are the biggest words I'll use in the post.

 

As stated, I came to EQII from World of Warcraft, looking for a change.  I started with the free trial, gave it some thought, and purchased KoS when it came out, as that was the easiest way to acquire the full install of EQ2 as well (currently do not have DoF).

 

There are things about both games that I like and dislike.  Obviously I have firmer opinions regarding WoW as I have played that game longer, but there are some things in EQII that will strike the beginning player right from the get-go.  I'll focus on the art as that is the main point of this thread.

 

Environment Art in World of Warcraft.

 

World of Warcraft has a singular style which leans to the fantastical.  There is no question that you are playing a fantasy game when viewing WoW environments.  Giant trees and mushrooms, lush jungles teeming with giant reptiles, and wintery landscapes over which dragons fly are the primary enviroments.  The key structure to WoW environment is the creation of a sense of scale.  Ironforge is a gigantic construction, with huge vaulted ceilings.  Massive statues decorate every city, and key buildings are huge affairs of spires and ballistrades.   Colors are lush and rich, volcanic environments seethe with venting gasses and lava.  Water looks good.  The overall look and feel of the game is very heavy into the "fantasy" part of a fantasy RPG.

 

Environment Art in EQII

 

I have explored the Initial Start island, the city of Qeynos, and a small part of Antonica (sp?).

 

The environments in EQII, at least so far, are designed to better resemble the real world and are more what we would expect.  Colors are definitely more muted than they are in WoW, but they are also more realistic.  The city of Qeynos looks like it was built from wood and stone block.  It feels like a true medieval city.  The plains of Antonica (sp?) felt like I was out in the grasslands.  Water looks good (even though if I max out the settings my computer whimpers). 

 

Overall, the environment art is different.  It is hard to compare on to the other as they are almost completely different styles.  EQ II leans towards a more realistic representation of the world, and WoW leans towards a more fantastical representation.

 

Character Models in WoW

 

Creating using a style that has been defined as "cartoony".  Rather than using realistic shading, WoW went towards a more painted or drawn feel.  This fits in with the art direction for the overall world.

 

Character Models in EQ2

 

Full 3D-rendered models.  Honestly, these appear to be hit and miss.  I like the appearance of the beast-type races, not so much the appearance of the humanoids.  They do appear to be rendered Poser models, and just seem to lack life.  I have downloaded the SOGA models, but I'm not sure if they are active or not.  Character models are probably my only complaint about EQII art, and it is one I can get past.

 

Lighting

 

EQII, hands down.  The lighting is very well done in this game.  It gets dark at nighttime!  It seems weird to get excited about such a simple thing, but after several months of the funky "half-night" in WoW, it was nice to see an actual sunset and sunrise, and to see it get dark at night.  Also, the overall lighting on character models is very well done, and woot, I have a real shadow.

 

Armor

 

WoW armor is definitely aimed at the anime fan-base.  Spiky, huge, and sometimes just downright ugly.  Lots of purple.  Definitely cartoony, and more ornamental in appearance than funcitonal.  Armor in EQ:  functional.  It looks like...well...armor.  Chain looks like chain, plate looks like forged steel, and so on.  Defintely a taste thing, but I am leaning towards EQII.  There is a CTRL-ALT-DEL comic that sums it up pretty well when defining EQII armor.  (May be paraphrasing here).  "This isn't a fashion statement, I wear this when I kill people"

 

Overall all, I think if you look long enough, you can find somethign to really like or dislike in either game art wise.  I have not played nearly long enough to make an intelligent statement about mob art in EQII, so I have left that off.  Overall, the art in both games serves the purpose of the games, and boils down to a personal preference.

 

  

[merula]

Third times a charm Lofweir. Good write up.

Message Edited by merula on 02-28-200612:46 PM

[Frobus]

As pointed out by another poster, I love how Gabe totally misses Smed's point.  All Smed basically said was, "Please don't make personal attacks on my artists until you can make better game art."  Somehow Gabe took that as Smed saying he couldn't have an opinion on game art.  You can have as much of an opinion on the game art as you want, just don't make immature personal attacks on people you've never met.

[Aeger]

Well played with the donuts. Well played, indeed.

[NotGonnaUseHybr]

I sure hate EQ2 and Money ...

 

 

 

*Waits for a check*

 

 

Kudos to Smedley

[Kai'va Arros]

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Pyrrhonic wrote:

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Kai'va Arroska wrote:The stupid thread that wouldn't die.

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Let me remind you of something you said in this very thread:"Sorry, its the internet, nothing is 'forced down your throat.' You simply follow the 'no return' policy you have adopted and your issues are solved."Sorry, why are you still here? Oh, that's right, to make random snarky comments at people you don't know.

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Wow, hypocritical much? Sad.

[Sarduscious]

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merula wrote:

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Radar-X wrote: They are also however in a influential position that might be considered journalism and that requires a little bit of integrity.  I found almost none in any of their statements. 

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I found this statement hilarious. Journalism and integrity? Can you say oxymoron?

So some of you are upset because a comic bashed a game you love. Big whoop. I love EQ2 and play constantly and I thought the comic was quite funny. Have you ever read a newspaper? Some things called political cartoons? They constantly bash our president/congress/government in general. I find those hilarious as well. It's called satire. It's for entertainment. If you don't like it, don't read it. So they bashed EQ2. A lot of you are bashing them now. What's the difference?

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________

In answer to your last question here : "What's the difference?"

The difference here is that the people at PA also have a known business link with Blizzard which began before the game's launch and continues still, so this type of thing is seen as less a matter of 'satire' and more a matter of 'smear campain' by an extension of a direct competitor.  The political cartoons you mentioned are no different in the sense that the majority of newspapers in the US that run such things either A ) Have an often unstated political bias towards a single political party and B ) Are often paid money that in essence is a part of the taxes you pay to run those cartoons by the political party in question.  In that light 'political cartoons' are the same type of thing -- a poor attempt at putting a humorous spin on a known political bias. 

You'll note that not all people here are 'bashing' PA in general, only their blatant mis-use of their voice in the gaming community to put down a game that everyone knows they would never say a positive word about due to the fact that in essence they're being paid not to.  That plus the fact that the link Blizzard put to their site on the WoW start page didn't go to the comic itself but rather to the immature rant about the art in EQ2. 

Perhaps we're all not seeing the point, and what we should take from the statements by PA is that they simply consider a graphic style based off of the unicorn sticker collections of Lisa Frank and has the most notoriously cut-and-paste approach to games environments ( yes, no matter where you go and no matter which 'side' you play on ALL towns and outposts use the exact same buildings simply with a slightly altered skin applied ) to be far superior and the hight of the artistic end of current game design ?  Either that or they simply want the checks to keep appearing in their PO box. /shrugs

[BtilTheMage]

If I say EQ2 is complete [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] will you start a thread about me, pretty please?

[Rezikai]

Eh.. I've read PA for quite a while.. years now... the comedy there is decent.. not always gut busting, ... but then again it's a web-comic... not stand up...lol

As for the refrences to EQ2 and the -slight- bashing they did.... meh... good.. whatever doesn't kill it will make it stronger... maybe it'll get the creative juices flowing in whatever board room the artists have to take their directive ques from..

there are those of us that really don't like direction artistically that EQ2 had when it began .. some of the more stylized graphics are now being implemented,.. some could say they prefer the more "realistic" look.. and to each their own.. but in a fantasy world I dont consider little balls of light that come out of your hand when you wave them all that realistic either.. so why would I care if the armor is realistic either?,.... personal preference i guess

As for the whole WoW tools/posts issue.... meh.. I guess its possible.. I've never played wow and don't entend to anytime soon... but I still agree with the artistic.. staleness of the current Art departments final product.... ( yes I critisize a hard working artist.. I do that b/c as one myself I know alot of what we make is crap.. and I don't have John Smed to come to my defense when my feelings get hurt ) ... and while this is just is this lowly penciler's opinion,.. I don't really blame the artists themselves.. I do blame the higherups for not letting them flex their creative muscles...

Meh.. while I knwo Sony wants to "protect their own" with Smed's reply.. It kinda cheapens the creativity... of well.. of what more then likely was a board room agreement of what they did/didn't want to do.. weahter i think its the right art direction or not.. (which i dont).

-Rez.

 

[Tiphison]

Personally, I agree with the arctiles statement on EQ2 lacking any real creative vision... The graphics are solid, no doubt, but they lack any real creativty. It's what you would expect as where WoW, for instance, is much more fantasy like.I do have to say though that EQ2 is an absolutely magnificent game. When I first played it at launch I knew there was something special about ti but wasn't quite able to commt. I still had SWG going and was wantign to give WoW a fair chance.Many months later during the CURB I gave EQ2 another shot but just wasn't able to commit again, mostly due to being busy in rl.Now though.. I'm heavily into EQ2. There was always something I loved about the game and now I am really able to enjoy it fully and the farther I progress the more and more I enjoy it.The dungeons and zones are also so diverse. It's quite amazing. Every new dungeon I go to astonishes me at how different it is from the rest, from both this game and others.In all honesty, I do not understand why anyone could dislike the game. EQ2 certainly doesn't match up to SWG or UO which will remain my favorite MMORPGs (Pre EA, pre CURB) but then again EQ2 is a different game. Compared to WoW and every other MMORPG aside from SWG/UO... EQ2 is by far the best and the only MMORPG of those types to entertain me.Penny Arcade is clearly blinded. That or they just follow the crowd. Either way, I have no idea who Penny Arcade is. I never heard of them until this. I do have to say their comic strip of SOE made no sense at all. Farther more, I noticed them in EGM and again... Their comics are not funny at all.