Mitigation Change

[Malleria]

Could you clarify what you mean here Xelgad?

“A few notes about leather versus plate durability: With this expansion, we're moving more towards "health" versus "mitigation" rather than "mitigation" versus "avoidance."”

At first glance it sounds like you're going to inflate leather tanks HP pools substantially beyond those of plate tanks and hope the difference makes up for the fact we don't mitigate as much damage?

[Corydonn]

Sounds like the more standard approach to monks in old school RPGs. I can get behind this idea.

[Genghes]

That is exactly what is happening. With the current expansion if you're a brawler and say have 2.5 -3 mil hp you'll be able to tank harder raid encounters easier. The inflated hp for brawlers will help prevent one shots for when you do get hit. This should be a good change

[Silzin]

Are they really looking at giving Brawlers about 50% or more extra HP then the Plate tanks.

If we are taking hits 25% harder (Bast on the new Mit curve) then i am thinking at least 50% would be needed... i have not been able to get my Monk up to 100 and test the new Prestige or .... the Gear that is not in yet...

[Luzionist]

Was this not attempted a few years back where they gave brawlers more hp than the other 2 tank subclasses and it was not effective, this is an interesting idea but why not allow certain raid mobs to be best suited for a specific tank class as the testing goes on I am sure the tuning will be done

[Malleria]

Yea, I'm not really convinced SOE will be willing to give enough of a boost to really make up the difference. This isn't something you can just throw a few hundred thousand HP at and call it good, the difference is going to have to be pretty substantial and that's going to draw complaints.

Seems like the no-brainer solution is just to give leather tank armor the same mit values as plate tank armor. Save yourselves the balance headache.

[Buffrat]

?????????

Brawlers already have as much mit as plate tanks. They're not inflating brawler hp beyond the new prestige ability.

[Malleria]

Buffrat said: ↑

“Brawlers already have as much mit as plate tanks.”

How do you figure?

[Buffrat]

Malleria said: ↑

“How do you figure?”

Because Brawlers have mit temps that are up 100% of the time they need them. I actually have more mit than crusaders, when it matters.

[Corydonn]

Buffrat said: ↑

“Because Brawlers have mit temps that are up 100% of the time they need them. I actually have more mit than crusaders, when it matters.”

Monks, But they might as well be the only brawler.

Bruisers only have a 40% chance to get their mit temp back up.

[Buffrat]

I can't hear you over the sound of my cooldowns popping twice as fast as yours.

[xkrisx]

Buffrat said: ↑

“I can't hear you over the sound of my cooldowns popping twice as fast as yours.”

Hahaha.. this made me lol.

But .. even as a bruiser :
Base Mit : 12,413
+ Martial Retaliation 1041
+ Fortitude Stand 843
Gives a constant : 14297 Mitigation

Then add in Temp Buffs

+ Bruising Spirit 1611 4min 8sec buff / 1min 30 recast
+ Rock Skin 3837 43sec buff / 1min 30 recast

= 19745 Mitigation

Just time your Rock Skin in between your Temp Rotation and as long as your not getting your socks rocked off with your Stone Skins the 1min 30 recast on Rock Skin is up every rotation and at the end of your 4th rotation, Bruising Spirit refreshes and can be recast. This gives you the ~20k Mit you need when you need it and refresh's when you dont. Is that ideal for every fight, no " absolutely not " but... it is doable and just call for assistance from your healers if you find yourself in a large gap. " Death Prevents / Death Interventions / Stone Skins / Coercive Shout ... ya know, the utility in your grp " Is a monk easier to manage, " I dont think so " as I have tried and tried and I didn't find it much better then Bruiser but then again, I have played a bruiser a hell of a lot longer then Monk and it just feels more natural to me. On paper though, I give it to the monk hands down, I just suck at playing one .

On the flip side, plate tanks will always have the potential to proc and temp there mitigation way above ours and can hold it there more consistently. This is the reason I feel that Brawlers are getting such a huge boost to HP this time round so when we do get hit, it isnt a one shot. Wont know untill new raids and new gear are released and get to see what the final result is.

[Tombstone]

Thanks Buffrat. Im very pleased that in at least someone is telling the truth. I can not say about bruiser, but monk at the moment reaches the mitigation cap (18.4k) without any problems. Monk also has a 95-97% total avoidance against any raid boss. And if brawlers get a huge advantage in HP, we will get an expansion where plate tanks will be useless. Monk is currently one of the best tanks for any content. But bruiser requires some love.

[Mahgnus]

xkrisx said: ↑

“= 19745 Mitigation
This gives you the ~20k Mit " .”

As a Crusader the best I can manage with my Mit siphon on 3 adds is around 18.5, fully buffed and best in slot gear. Mist gives me 432 per target I'm able to siphon so that number is often lower. Kinda makes me laugh that ppl still claim brawlers don't have the Mit that the plate tanks do.

Seems legit..

[headbusta]

As a guard if I'm wearing every piece of mit gear I can put on I'll end up at 23-25k+ in raid, problem is it isn't required cause anything over 18.5k is a waste. So I get to wear a few pieces of gear to help the raid out, but when it comes to being hit there is no real difference in the mit between the tanks, and the brawlers avoid *slightly* more of the attacks. If this HP instead of Mit thing is going to happen, they need to make it so leather tanks either can't reach the cap so that they actually do get hit harder (due to mit, not really questioning that they get hit hard right now), or make it relatively easy for plate tanks to reach it so we have more room to gear for some extra utility/dps.

[Stealthmode]

I disagree with above, you will wind up as a dps tank. That would unbalance the game. These changes need to be thoroughly tested, in pvp as well as pve, some of them are gonna break other classes. And thats not good. So get on beta, and get together with others in same archtype. Considering we are this close to release and devz havent even tested out the new gear yet, much less combat changes, this is a little scary and I foresee on launch a lot of ad hoc patching to fix broken classes. (thinks back a few years) yeah they tried the same thing before, didnt work, and a lot of classes had to be changed to fix what they broke by overpowering certain classes before and NOT TESTING THOROUGHLY the changes they implemented.

[Genghes]

As a bruiser I can get to about 22k mit in combat on raids with all temps running. What it comes down to is class abilities and temp rotation of the tank.

[ElectricPotato]

headbusta said: ↑

“As a guard if I'm wearing every piece of mit gear I can put on I'll end up at 23-25k+ in raid, problem is it isn't required cause anything over 18.5k is a waste. So I get to wear a few pieces of gear to help the raid out, but when it comes to being hit there is no real difference in the mit between the tanks, and the brawlers avoid *slightly* more of the attacks. If this HP instead of Mit thing is going to happen, they need to make it so leather tanks either can't reach the cap so that they actually do get hit harder (due to mit, not really questioning that they get hit hard right now), or make it relatively easy for plate tanks to reach it so we have more room to gear for some extra utility/dps.”

mmm look at mit curve with no cap that is the current model for Armor of Morbius Expansion
https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2...n-resists-and-protection.551682/#post-6110807

[xkrisx]

ElectricPotato said: ↑

“mmm look at mit curve with no cap that is the current model for Armor of Morbius Expansion
https://forums.station.sony.com/eq2...n-resists-and-protection.551682/#post-6110807”

I think what he is getting at, is that even though there is no Hard Threshold for Mitigation / 18.5k was esssentialy cap. New expansion cap is set at 35k. If Brawlers turn out to have 50% more HP Then plate tanks, then they need to make sure they cant hit the 35k Threshold for 75% Damage Reduction. If all tanks are able to get 35k + mitigation then it boils down to Temps and HP Pool for survivability once again. If this happens, then there will be no change in tank balance.

[Silzin]

xkrisx said: ↑

“I think what he is getting at, is that even though there is no Hard Threshold for Mitigation / 18.5k was esssentialy cap. New expansion cap is set at 35k. If Brawlers turn out to have 50% more HP Then plate tanks, then they need to make sure they cant hit the 35k Threshold for 75% Damage Reduction. If all tanks are able to get 35k + mitigation then it boils down to Temps and HP Pool for survivability once again. If this happens, then there will be no change in tank balance.”

the New Prestige Brawler changes only give about 6% * the amount of HP% increase as we can get, Or about 18%-20% on live #. (If i am doing to number right) having 20% -25% more HP may give us enough of a buffer to survive hits that would one shot of and not kill plate tanks

Edit: since given my experience Brawlers still have a lower average Mit then similar Plate tanks. Bu i may be wrang.

[ElectricPotato]

sounds like discussion needs input from beta itemization drops(armor mit, shields, brawler primary,secondaries, ranges) and prostige point expenditure actual yields to continue more constructively.

[Malleria]

The whole point of the thread was asking Xelgad to give more details about where they imagine each class sitting on the new curve. For example, will plate tanks be reasonably expected to reach say 30k mit with leather tanks sitting around 20k, but with leather tanks getting ~40% more total hp? Not saying that's what it should be, but that kind of information is ultimately needed before anyone can say one way or another whether it's a good change or not.

And like it or not, plate tanks do have an advantage in mitigation, regardless of temps. Sure, a brawler might be able to use temps to match the unbuffed mit of a plate, but once some plates get their own temps running it's no contest. If the only hp increase coming to brawlers is the first prestige thing, it's just not enough without some big changes to itemization. It's pretty shocking that a beta as short as this one doesn't have even basic itemization in yet, and until it is put in there's no way to really judge anything.

If they keep the status quo (and I haven't seen anything to suggest they won't. They seem to view ToV balance (itemization, mob damage, hp pools, etc) as pretty much spot on) brawlers (bruisers mostly) are going to see a continuing decline. The new mitigation curve means as mob levels get higher, brawlers get worse proportionally compared to plate tanks, because of the naturally lower mitigation. Using HP to balance that is questionable, because any increase to HP to make brawlers survive better at the high end will ultimately make them overpowered in the low end. The obvious solution if they're abandoning avoidance as a balance point (which thank God they seem to be doing, cause it's been clear to players that brawler avoidance is not any better than plate for some time) is to just level out the mitigation difference. That way everything can be balanced from one starting point, instead of trying to juggle how much HP they need to give one tank vs how much mit they need to give another.

[Genghes]

Maergoth said: ↑

“Sounds like brawlers are going to be ridiculous.

Brawlter of Malice inc.”

I guess it's a good thing that you don't need healers to keep you alive on raids then so pally still strong...

[ElectricPotato]

from the master crafted armor, with my monks view of them, leather hands 1331 mit, plate hands 1634.

the first box of prostige sent my formerly 970k hp monk to just under 1130k.

shield protection being double what it was at 95 to 100, I haven't wrapped my head whether that will make avoidance easier to cap for shield users compared to what it was for (well, except for scouts and priests trying to cap, prolly still be hard =D).

[Maergoth]

Sounds like brawlers are going to be ridiculous.

Brawlter of Malice inc.

[Hamorm]

A+ cause it was basically a copy of what you posted earlier about not needing healers to survive? To much speculation on MIT vs hp currently ... We made things work in tov I'm sure tanks will manage this round too.

[Buffrat]

Maergoth just doesn't want to get outtanked by a Ratonga.

[Maergoth]

It's a copy/paste with zero relevance, taken out of context. No tank needs healers anywhere near as much as before.

In fact, on most of these fights, if the tank stops pushing buttons, the tank dies. If the healer stops pushing buttons.. you won't even notice. I am confident that I could tank anything in this expansion with a solo healing channeler. The days of needing 2 healers are gone, because tanks control 90% of their survivability now.

To the point that I am currently, willingly, bertox charming 50-150% of my HP away per second because of how excessive my survivability is.

And I guarantee other tanks could get similar usage out of it.

[Buffrat]

Monks can tank the entirety of Vulak'Aerr without being hit more than 5 times, so yeah. Who needs heals anyway.

[Maergoth]

Buffrat said: ↑

“Monks can tank the entirety of Vulak'Aerr without being hit more than 5 times, so yeah. Who needs heals anyway.”

Not just heals, but mitigation or max health either.

Which is why I think brawlers will be OP, if this expansion doesn't really shake things up. Plate tanks are going to be juggling mitigation and max health while brawlers are all



EQ2 and Smash have the same pro strat.