Monk Prestige abilities

[Silzin]

This is a first impressions since leveling is going to take a long time.  I will be updating this after I have had time to test everything. 

Right Side - DPS - CB

• Waveform - An on attack proc, with a DD, and DoT and a attack skill debuff. looks promising and may be decent dps when just dpsing in Reckless.
• Liquid Movement - Busts Waveform, looks promising.
• Ocean's Onslaught - Adds damage to Waveform when we are behind or Flanking. Not sure how much but again looks Promising.
• Stifling Assault - adds an Attack Speed Debuff to Waveform. very underwhelming. unless it is going to make a actual difference in mob dps then this will probably be skipped by all monks.
• Fluid Combination - Final DPS ability - an attack like 5 rings that looks to do good damage on a 6 sec's and can only be used when Waveform is proced and the monk must be behind or Flanking. may be a very nice attack and add some good dps when not tanking.

Middle abilities. 

• Tranquil Constitution - STA bussed, ok I will take it.
• Serene Energy - 5k ward on a Block with a 1s every 10 sec's. it may weld some, but I think it is going to heal more than about 50 hps and not help when needed.

Left Side - Tanking - Pot

• Winds of Salvation - first I thought it was like Drag but with also with a 5 sec AoE Prevent and 50% Damage Reduction.... OMG .... but its not that. it teleports a player to me and gives them the 5 sec AoE Prevent and 50% Damage Reduction. on a 3 minute base recast. I can only think of 2 ways I could use this. 1, on a tank that needs to stay in to give them a save... but then why am I dragging them to me? or a non tank that is rooted or whatever and needs to get out of a Red Test and I won't have the time to target and drag, it's a 5 sec duration. O did I mention it has a rang or 10-35 meters, so if you are next to me and need to help I cant save you. If we could also use this ability on a mob and drag it and we get the other effects the it would be nice, but as is I would not take it.
• Tranquil Breeze - Adds a control effects Immunity to Winds of Salvation. Nice, its not all effects at first, may get better with all ranks, but ... this doesn't make the original ability worth it.
• Winds of Aggression - at rank 1 is a 10% hate Transfer from the target of Winds of Salvation. so 30% at 3 ranks, not bad.
• Crushing Winds - 15% damage Reflect of the reduced damage. so with 3 ranks should be 45% of the 50%, not bad I guess.
• Winds of Retribution - Final Ability - On Repost will cast, not bad beginning, will Reflect 2% of damage taken back to the mob in crushing damage. If you go this far then I would expect a ... tanking option here not damage. I think something defensive needs to replace this.

Over all, I like the DPS line and I think as is 99% of monks will take it.  I think the tanking side will need some major revamping if you expect any monks to take it. 

[Rageincarnate]

Winds of Salvation

Don't do a teleport   Talk about a herding sheep ability.

I will torture rangers every chance i can.  oh you just got in position due to weird hit boxes?  teleport!  Now run back and like it !  Oh and give me 30% of your hate that i just messed up cause i teleported you out of position.

HAHAHA OMG!  I'm going to use this on the mt, stand behind the mob, teleport him to me and have the whole raid eat frontal !!! YES!!!!  

Whistling in the backgroud while the raid trys to figure out the mobs tank port script muhahuahahaua

This should be group friend 0-50meters.  or group non fighter period or group priest or something.  I wouldnt be opposed to self but guards would cry and i dont want nerfed more :/

I don't see a use for this. in its current state.  Maybe if the guardian is in a wheelchair.. and he can't joust..  I can joust him for him.

Dps side is a no brainer as it stands now.  The tank side has a good concept.. but it needs a tweak.

[DeathMagus]

The best use for Winds that I can come up with atm is to pull a melee dps back to a mob after they joust so they don't have to run as far... or to pull them back to the mob after a KB.  Since you'll be in front of a mob if tanking the dmg reduction might help keep them alive if an AE auto goes off before they get behind the mob.  

The other decent way to use this would be to stack on a tank that's going to take a %hp based DT to keep them alive.  However, that could be bothersome.  

[edit]

It could also be used to pull an OT to you if you are the MT and adds just spawned on you.  (this should almost always be unnecesary)

[BChizzle]

Initial impression

Right Side - DPS - CB

• Waveform - Yay more dps!
• Liquid Movement - Not sure if the duration increase does anything for this, it lasts 12 seconds without it and a 10% proc rate waveform will pretty much be up at all times.  The tick increase is nice.
• Ocean's Onslaught - Looks good.
• Stifling Assault - Seems like maybe this was intended for PVP however the attack speed debuff is so low I don't even know how effective it will be, this ability needs to be looked at and most likely will be passed up by all monks.
• Fluid Combination - Final DPS ability -Pretty awesome.

Middle abilities. 

• Tranquil Constitution - cool stuff
• Serene Energy - the only triggers every 10 seconds is really not needed on this ability, I mean if it was on all the time possible that means max it could do is 300 or so heal per second which is really useless when you consider we probably will be hitting the 100k HP mark this expansion.

Left Side - Tanking - Pot

• Winds of Salvation - When I heard about this ability I didn't think I would like it, but in actuality it is pretty amazing.  My only beef with it is the minimum range restriction.  Please consider allowing us to use it on someone who is right beside us.  It will just be too much hassle to have to make sure our target is in the right range so we can use it.
• Tranquil Breeze - Pretty cool, monks need a way to do control effects.  I do have an issue with the cure element of this ability.  If we are going to be using this ability to bring people in for things like AE's we would probably be using it before the AE goes off, which means the detrimental will land on us after we use the ability.  What would work much better is if while Winds is active that the cures spam off detrimentals every second as ticks rather than it just coming off when we first use the ability.
• Winds of Aggression - with the hate transfer cap I don't see this being effective in any way.  If we don't have an assassin or swashy transfer on us chances are we are just temporarily tanking which in that case we wouldn't need that hate tranfer after Winds expires.
• Crushing Winds - Reflect damage on an ability that gives AE immune and damage reduction means very little damage on this one, not sure how useful it will be.
• Winds of Retribution - Final Ability - Sounds like some crazy DPS from this one while tanking.

[kalanon]

I'm still trying to figure out the point of Winds of Salvation.  The short timer on the defensive buff and the minimum distance points to whoever designed the ability wanting it to be used for the pull, but the only scenario I've been able to come up with where it would be useful is on a fight where the mob memwipes and does something where the tank is unable to use a snap, you use this ability to pull whoever the mob wiped to and give them an extra 5 seconds to live while not frontaling the raid.  However, since there is only one fight like this that I know of (Lichlord), it seems a bit of a waste.

You could use it as a way to let one of your scouts stay in for jousts, but the minimum distance and the fact that you are pulling someone out of position in front of the mob doesn't really fit with that.  You could use it for the control effect immunity on one of your healers, but the same problem arises.  If you are OT'ing, you could pull the MT out on a red text, but that means you have to be out already, and he could have just run out anyway.  

All in all, with the general lack of anything interesting in the first tier of the defensive tree and the amazingness that is Dragonfire, there just doesn't seem to be much incentive for a defensive tank to take the defensive prestige options, which seems odd.  I guess the defensive endline could turn out to be an amazing amount of dps, but then you just get more dps and a mostly useless ability, not more defense.

If nothing else, I think the ability needs to be changed to:

Teleports target to caster

-if target is greater than 10m away

and apply all of the other buffs regardless of range.

[Ambrin]

To be honest, non of the new prestige abilities look all that great from a main tanking (defensive) perspective.

DPS

• Waveform - DPS proc that could potentially add a large chunk of DPS, will probably be worth picking up.
• Ocean's Onslaught - Useless when tanking, probably pretty great for DPSing.
• Stifling Assault - May be somewhat useful when tanking if the attack speed reduction is significant, although I doubt it will be.
• Liquid Movement - Could potentially add a lot of DPS depending on how Waveform stacks / refreshes itself.
• Fluid Combination - A high damage attack that could potentially add a lot of DPS, especially when not tanking.

Middle

• Tranquil Constitution - I'm not exactly sure what increasing my stamina bonus will do, but it seems like this will give me more HP which is always good while tanking.
• Serene Energy - I seem to remember suggesting something almost exactly like this in the past, and I really like the basic idea behind the ability. The problem is that by only allowing it to proc once every 10 seconds you are effectively capping it's healing potential at ~300 HPS which isn't a whole lot. Please consider allowing this ward to stack with itself and decrease the proc cap to once per 3 seconds. Even with this much lower cap this skill will cap out at ~1000hps worth of warding, which isn't exactly huge.

Defense

• Winds of Salvation - I can't really see much of a use for this skill. The 10 minimum range basically means that you can't use this skill on another tank. Either he is too close to you, or you summon this tank and screw up raid positioning. It might be usefull for helping a DPS survive a joust, but even than it's not much help because they will have to run back out range right after you use it, not to mention the high reuse meaning it can only be used every few jousts / AoE's and only on one person. At best it seems like it could used as a "pseudo-snap" to bring someone with agro to you so that you can get agro back. Even this isn't as useful as another DPS could pull agro while the mob is running and we already have a decent set of tools for getting agro back from range (Peel, Mantis Leap, Provoking Stance + taunts). I can't honestly say that this skill will get much use at all from a tank. This skill really need to be replaced.
• Tranquil Breeze - Control immunity is something that Monks need, but with such a low duration and a high reuse this will hardly be useful at all.
• Winds of Aggression - This skill supports the idea of using this ability to protect DPS on a joust or to use this skill as a pseudo-snap. The overall design of this skill line prevents this from being of much use.
• Crushing Winds - Considering this will only reflect direct damage and that Winds of Salvation can only really be used on DPS, this skill is ultimately useless as having a raid name attack a DPS class is usually going to result in the quick death of that DPS class. It won't even reflect that much damage considering it will only reflect 22.5% of any incoming damage.
• Winds of Retribution - It sounds nice at first look, but it won't reflect very much damage at all. Looking back at my last few raids as MT (ST, Drunder HM havn't done much in PoW), my average incoming damage was 6000-8000 DPS. If we are generous and say that new expansion raid mobs will be capable of dealing 10000 DPS to me and assuming that I have a constant 10 stacks than this ability at most will deal back a whopping 2000 DPS. Even if I could get 400CB (shouldn't be too hard in raid) and this skill can crit than this skill will max out at 10,000 DPS. It is doubtfull a Monk will have very many stacks of this up unless he is running Tsunami considering ripostes are a relatively low percent of a brawlers overall avoidance.

Overall, the DPS side of the tree is really good, if you're DPSing and not tanking. The tanking side however, seems like a complete disaster.

Monks really don't need another agro management skill, we have a ton of those already. We need something that is going to either directly increase are ability to take damage, or something that is going to provide us with an increase in utility that is actually desireable. Some sort of unique group would really be awesome, something like this:

• Winds of Salvation (Starter) -  Outward Calm, Will of the Heavens, Mountain Stance, and Lightning Palm will have their effects applied to each member of the group (30m range) when activated by the Monk. 25%/50%/75% of the Monks casting strength (ie at rank 3 a 100% Mend would be 75% on each group member, and 50k Outward Calm would 37.5K on each group member, etc)
• Breath of the Heavens - Activating Will of The Heavens will apply Breath of the Heavens to self (each group member gets Breath of the Heavens when Will of the Heavens is activated). Breath of the Heavens adds control immunity for 3/4/5 seconds after being activated. The final rank allows Will of the Heavens to break control effects.
• Chinook - Activating Mend or Outward Calm applies Chinook to self (each group member gets Chinook when the Monk activtates Mend or Outward Calm). Chinook causes all healing spells cast on target to heal all firendly targets (10m AE) for 1% of their max health. Lasts 3/4/5 seconds.
• Hurricane Force Winds - Records all damage you deal while Lightning Palm is active (like Rhythmic Overture / Victorious Concerto). Applies Hurricane Force Winds when Lightning Palm expires: Deals 15%/30%/45% of recorded damage to enemy as magic damage. (Lightning Palm only lasts until it is out of triggers, which is usually only a few seconds. This ability could record some huge hits in the right scenario, especially AoE.)
• Winds of Retribution (Endline) - Grants 100% additional riposte chance (parry's become ripostes). Casts Winds of Retribution on a successful riposte: Reflects 1% of all incoming damage to all targets in range (10m AE) and instantly restores 0.5% of all incoming damage to the monk. Lasts 30s and can stack up to 10 times.

This new tree is designed to give the monk more group utility that is based largely around his role as a tank. In addition to the direct effects of Mend and Outward calm being applied to our group members we will also indirectly heal the raid. Our Self cure will become group wide and provide control immunity for a short duration. One of our most mediocre damage abilities will become a decent group wide damage skill with the potential for large bursts of damage. Winds of retribution, with a slight tweek, becames a highly desireable defensive ability while still maintaining a worthwhile damage component, especially in group encounters. The numbers I suggested to start with may not be perfect (will require testing), but the ideas I suggested are far better and much more unique than the ones currently implemented.

[Silzin]

Winds of Salvation - is stunning me for the 5 sec's during it is active. this makes it even more useless. I like several of the ideas here to change the ability and make it useful.

Edit: Also Tranquil Constitution- gave me about 3k more HP when i was at 62k self buffed.  So its a dicent bust. 

[BChizzle]

Monks don't really need more defensive temps as we can pretty much chain our current ones until infinity.  I like the inclusion of a more utility type skill, it needs some tweaking though right now it is a bit too limited.

Right now how I see winds is this:

Use it as an AE avoid/dmg reduction and keep a DPS in for a joust.

Use it on another tank as a boost to their survivability.

Use it on memwipes to bring the wiped agro target to you.

Use it on things like in POW when the mobs cast their death touch root stun detrimental right before a red text and the tank gets ported to you instead of dying.

Use it for the cure/immunity. (is it usable while under control effects?)

Lost of usefulness but very script dependant, it needs to be useful all the time.

[Serik]

Fom what I've tried out so far, the Waveform tree is pretty good and it provides enough value in both MT and OT roles.  Stifling Assault does not give enough of a benefit to spend points in, even when all 5 increments are present on a mob.  If it were to debuff 1-1.5 more attack speed per increment it could be better.

Also, Fluid Combination does not currently light up when Waveform is on a mob, so it's a bit harder to track when you can use it unless you use a third party UI add-on.

The middle stuff is good.  Tranquil Constitution provides enough value for 3 points.  I like Serene Energy but I would have to agree with the others that it should either have the chance to proc more or give a slightly bigger ward.

I haven't tried out the left side yet, but just from initial impressions it could be better if the minimum range on Winds of Salvation was reduced to 5m.  It seems really limited in use for the time being but then again the value of the ability is dependent on the content.  Winds of Retribution will be very good, especially if we are able to play around with riposte chance on the new gear and get it capped.

[BChizzle]

Serik@Butcherblock wrote:

Fom what I've tried out so far, the Waveform tree is pretty good and it provides enough value in both MT and OT roles.  Stifling Assault does not give enough of a benefit to spend points in, even when all 5 increments are present on a mob.  If it were to debuff 1-1.5 more attack speed per increment it could be better.

Also, Fluid Combination does not currently light up when Waveform is on a mob, so it's a bit harder to track when you can use it unless you use a third party UI add-on.

The middle stuff is good.  Tranquil Constitution provides enough value for 3 points.  I like Serene Energy but I would have to agree with the others that it should either have the chance to proc more or give a slightly bigger ward.

I haven't tried out the left side yet, but just from initial impressions it could be better if the minimum range on Winds of Salvation was reduced to 5m.  It seems really limited in use for the time being but then again the value of the ability is dependent on the content.  Winds of Retribution will be very good, especially if we are able to play around with riposte chance on the new gear and get it capped.

Too much riposte might be a bad thing since you wont be taking damage to proc the reflect lol.

[kalanon]

A couple other options to tweak Winds of Salvation to make it a little more viable outside of extremely contrived circumstances:

1.  Change the base ability to only give the AoE Block and damage reduction buff, with no pull.  Change one of the modifying abilities to allow WoS to pull the target to the caster from up to 15/25/35 meters away.  You could add whatever effect this replaces (hate siphon?) to the base ability if you want to retain total theoretical usefulness.

2.  Have Winds of Salvation give you two useable abilities with a shared cooldown, similar to the replacements a lot of classes got to certain spells from the original prestige line (e.g. Umbral Ward/Umbral Barrier or Grave Sacrament/Chaos Cloud).  Both abilities would have the same effects and be modified in the same way by the current upgrades, but one would include the 10+ meter pull to caster effect, and the other would not.  

[Silzin]

Updating these ability since I have 16 Prestige Points. Note all numbers are as of 93 with all DoV or better raid gear in D-Stance.

Right Side - DPS - CB

• Waveform with 3 points have a 30% chance to proc and a 12 sec duration. It deals 1836 - 2713 instantly and 219 - 365 every 4, with 30 attack skill debuff. I think the DoT #'s need to be brought up a lot, but DD part is fine. Note: for an ability that should go off 30% of any attach it sure is not procing that much. On a 5 minit Fight with 3 points in Ocean's Onslaught on a traning dume it did 4.7k, not bad. • 3 points in Liquid Movement - Changes the duration of Waveform to 18 sec's and reduses the tick time of the DoT to 3 sec's. • 3 points in Ocean's Onslaught - Reduces the normal Hit of Waveform to be 1326-2210 and 221-368 every 4. Adds 521 all of the time DD, 1326-2210 DD if Flanking or Behind, and 221-368 every 4. So the added Green DD makes up for the reduction DD. Over all almost double damage when Flanking or Behind on an ability that was parsing 1500 in reckless is not impressive. • 3 Points in Stifling Assault - Adds 7.5% Attack Speed Debuff. Still not Impressed, if you want it to be a Attack Speed Debuff make it like 50% or more. It may have a large effect if mobs don’t have huge amounts of attack speed, but I think it is worth anything at the moment.

Middle - HP

• Tranquil Constitution - 3 points game me 3k HP Solo from 62k. Not bad. Left Side - Tanking - Pot • Winds of Salvation - I like the Idea and I want to like the ability, but as I test it I think it needs work. with 3 Points and max reuse it has a 45 sec recast, nice. As stated by others the 10 Meter min is a killer. for starters I would say get rid of the Teleport other. these 2 things alone may fix the ability and give us a nice defensive utility option. • Tranquil Breeze - with 3 points Adds to Winds of Salvation: 123 lvls of Dispels and immunity for 9 sec's on Stifles, Roots, Stunes, Makes target Afraid, Daze, and Mesmerizes, and dispels with you take damage. I think the dispels needs to go away if we don’t get the AoE immunity and 50% DR. Also it appears this ability also Stuns the Monk when Winds of Salvation is active. it is a fill Stun, cant move, auto attack, or use Ca's, cant even use abilities that I can use when Stunned/Stifled, nice. O also it looks like I was feared, so it make be giving me all of the things its making me immune to... • Winds of Aggression - 3 points gives 30% hate Transfers from target for 15 sec's. I am impressed with this part and think something else would be better. Like giving the Monk some Defensive bused. • Crushing Winds - 3 points gives 45% of the damaged Reduced will be reflected. if this includes any damage that the target would take my the AoE immune that its nice, other than that it will only work if we use it on the MT and we screw up his positioning.

[Nebbeny]

Left side.  First things first, Tranquil breeze is bugged, and is applying all of the CC instead of immunizing to it, even says as such in the tooltip for Winds of Salvation, bug report sent about it but hopefully they'll read it here.

I could see using it on specific fights.  Fights where the named does a death touch combined with deagro and you happen to be the adds tank.  If there wasn't a minimum range then I could see it being used more often to help a scout avoid jousting or something similar.  But with a minimum range, there are very few times I can think of off the top of my head when i've said to myself "you know what, i wish the person standing over there were instead standing on top of me".  I'm a tank.  I'm infront of the mob, other people getting infront of the mob usually means an AE auto attack landing on them and killing them instantly, if AE avoids worked for AE auto attack this wouldn't be a problem but it doesn't.  With all the issues the main ability has, the other 9 points you could potentially spend on it don't really need dealing with now, but as it is other than the CC one (when it's fixed) I don't really like the look of them.  Reflect damage seems to be worthless and I very rarely need another transfer unless i'm stunned, which i wont be once this works.

As for the final one, I assume it refreshing to full duration on every riposte even when maxxed is supposed to happen, since I saw on another prestige that it specifically called out not reseting duration, so on a long fight this'll be initiated with tsunami pretty quickly then maintained with ease. However the reflect only works on damage dealt to you, so anything warded or stoneskinned or avoided will be ignored by this, it also doesn't reduce the damage you take which might of been nice.  So it's a dps ability, at the end of the defensive endline, and it's a poor one at that.

Middle, Tranquil Constitution has a misleading description, once i'd spent point in it and examined the effect it had on my health, it was fairly obvious, and it changes the tooltip for stamina with 3 points so that makes it even easier.  But Increases the Stamina Bonus of Caster by 34.0 isn't the most intuitive of descriptions, and even when you know what it's doing it doesn't make sense.  0.34 would be easier to understand.

As for Serene energy, in it's current incarnation it's not much good, I'd like to know what makes it's ward amount scale, I don't think it's potency, I suspect it's max health, but at 70.4k max health, a 3k ward that may proc every 15 seconds is going to do very little healing.  In 3 minutes worth of fighting a solo zone, i cast outward calm once and it did nearly double what serene energy did the entire time.  But hey, it still out healed my vallon BP ward *mutter*.

Right side.  Need more testing, not sure if the endline does different damage based on number of increments, I think it should from the description, but looking at a heroic zone parse not 100% sure. need to find a GH with dummies.  I'm not sure attack speed debuffs have ever worked properly on mobs, not something i've tested, but 37.5% seems like a nice amount of attack speed debuff if it works.  But like i said, don't know the mechanics of attack speed debuffs on mobs.  Waveform itself seems to be pretty pathetic on the dps output, I would probably avoid Ocean's Onslaught becaues not only do you have to be not tanking, but doulbe of very very little, is still very little.

Edit- Okay understand the ability more now, for each stack on the mob, it'll do 1 of those 4 hits listed on the CA.  So it's a weaker version of five rings with more restrictions.  Overall i'm not impressed with monk prestiges after looking at a few parses.  Another CA is alright just... not impressive.

[kalanon]

Did a couple test parses with the new prestige AA's.  Here's defensive stance in front of a training dummy, 10 minutes, no temp buffs, using the right tree (waveform/fluid combination):

Same thing, but with reckless stance and behind the dummy:

I also did some testing with Winds of Retribution.  It looks like it takes mitigated incoming damage received without adding crits/potency/anything else.  Any damage that is warded or stoneskinned is not reflected.  Pulling a couple groups of trash in Sev x4, being solo healed by a fury (so no wards to prevent damage), I was able to get it up to 2k dps outgoing, with 100% uptime on 10 stacks of the buff.  The largest hit was 11k damage on a 55k autoattack.  Considering that this ability doesn't actually do anything for us in terms of reducing damage taken, and actually using our wards/stoneskins to keep ourselves alive through larger attacks that might reflect a decent amount of damage will actually make it not work, it seems pretty lackluster.

[Silzin]

know i have 23 PP, i did more testing. Waveform looks fine and is parsing nice from behind and in Reckless as shown above. Nice not tanking option and has possibilities for when tanking for some added dps. Fluid Combination - from the description it should be hitting 5 times per attack but its hitting for me on average 2-3 times per attack. Ether the test needs to be updated to match what it is doing or the attack needs to be fixed, since the attack has a 100% hit in the test. Middle 2 - look fine and are parsing ok. Left side - still leaves a lot to be desired. Winds of Salvation is more useable, but I still am having a hard time thinking of a time I would use it. Maybe in I am the OT and the MT needs help, or if I need a healer to stay in on a Red Text with me that is over every 45 secs. I don’t know. Or when a named memwipes I hit the named's target with it to give that person more ability to tank the mob, instead of snapping the named. I can see the added range over most of our snaps is helpful. its just a very surecom stanshall ability. Winds of Retribution - I would really like to see something defensive in this location. the ability as it is encourages us to be as non defensive as we can. Maybe if it was based on the % of damage prevented by the Ripostes (or any damage prevented) that I could like it. that feels more like a defensive ability.

[kalanon]

Did some further testing with Winds of Retribution.  MT'ing the temple x4 raid, the ability did effectively no damage the entire zone.  The last 3 named mobs we killed (zone boss was not available), it did a total of 9k damage, about 30 dps.  The fact that it only procs after wards means there will be a huge gap between [Solo with no merc] and [End Game Raid MT] where this ability is a waste of a prestige point if you have a half-decent shaman with you.

[Karagon]

Can monks get something really useful instead of all new abilities in left tree? I can't really imagine how they can help me in raid. I bet no one monk would rake the left tree if all stay like now.

If you give us antiAOE - then give it to monk also. Not to any other target except monk. Reposte damage seemes awful in the defence treee. We already got damage in the right one - give us plz something to survive/to buff or whatever that would be USEFUL in raids in the left tree as option. Not just antiAOE on groupfriend... Comparing to other tank classees monks now have the worst left tree ever/

My offers are:

1) let antiAOE and damage reduction works on monk also

2) let it be castable under control effects - so it's upgrade would grant us control immunity, and we could survive sometime. Monk is so bad with controls for now...

3) Replace the final ability that damage mob when we reposte with something that buff us when we reposte - A bit HP% increase for some time after reposte - for would be cool

You have already nerfed monk's survivability. Why now you don't give us option to choose from in prestige AA?...

[Silzin]

Karagon I like your ideas. about #3, if it had a lets say 10s duration on each HP% increase then it can stack up and would not need to be a huge % to start with. even just 1-2% and can stack up to like .... 20 times?

[Karagon]

Yeah that would be good. But if 20% hp is too overpowered - even 10% hp would be cool replacement for that trash reposte damage.

[Silzin]

Well i am thinking we would not get more then 5% at any given time without Tsunome up, and then only with adds.

[kalanon]

I haven't really seen any problems with the proc rate or maintaining stacks of Retribution, unless you get into a situation where you are not being hit for extended periods, such as tank switches.  It's really the reflect that needs to be reworked.  A defensive buff such as max health, damage reduction, or a chance to proc a stoneskin on being hit would make much more sense.  However, if the devs are really sold on a damage ability in the tank tree, it should be something like a damage proc that fires on a successful avoid or something similar, so it rewards you for doing a good job of tanking instead of taking more damage.

[Serik]

Xelgad just posted these fighter changes that will be patched tomorrow:

BRUISER:Broken Limbs also adds 1/2/4 ticks to Pulverize.Martial Retaliation now applies an incremental buff to the bruiser that increases riposte chance and maximum health.Pulverize's damage has been increased.Battering Onslaught's damage has been reduced.

Are equivalent changes going in for the Monk Prestige abilities as well?

[Karagon]

Hey really, no changes for monks yet??? Would left (defence) line stay such useless as it now?

[kalanon]

The left tree really does need... something.  The only way I think I will ever be using it in its current form is going down far enough for the aoe blocker, and then spend the extra points to fill in the top half of the right tree, and this would only be for specific fights where the blocker was necessary.  I would be essentially be throwing away most of the points to get there.  None of the extra stuff we get from the left tree is worth dropping points from the dps side of the tree because it really doesn't give us much (current live portion) or any (new stuff) actually survivability or increased ease of tanking.  And the reflect damage would be a dubious mechanic even if it did great damage, which it doesn't.

I guess I should say, this is from a monk that mostly does HM raids, HM heroics, and soloing.  Its possible that the defensive tree might perform a bit better in easy heroics, although I don't really see how, so someone else will have to comment.

Double Edit:  Changes go live 15 minutes after I hit submit...

Change to Winds of Retribution look good, buff is relatively small but worth taking for tanking serious content.  The heal and crit bonus additions to Salvation are a bit on the underwhelming side, but mostly because the actual buff only lasts 5 seconds.  If the crit bonus buff either lasts a bit longer (10-15 secs?) or gives a bit more bonus, maybe 25-30 for three points, but it is still better than what it replaced.

[Silzin]

From update notes 11/9/2012 "Monk Winds of Aggression is now Winds of Serenity. It now heals the target for 5% per rank per second that Winds of Salvation is active. Crushing Winds now grants both the caster and the target an increase to Crit Bonus. Winds of Retribution now applies an incremental buff to the monk that increases riposte chance and maximum health. Liquid Movement now also adds 1/2/4 ticks to Waveform. Fluid Combination has had its damaged reduced. It no longer inflicts bonus damage if the monk is not the current target. Serene Energy has had its ward doubled. Waveform's damage has been increased." Winds of Serenity - a 75% heal over 5 sec's, not a bad addition. If not going to make me want to take Winds of Salvation but it’s a decent addition. this with the Immunity's the ability is decent. Crushing Winds - 18% CB at 3 ranks for me and my target for 10 sec's. ok, but I think this is going to be bypassed for the HP and other options, I think 30 sec's would be more worth it. Winds of Retribution - at max 3% riposte chance and 10% maximum health, thank you, it’s a Defensive ability for us in the Defensive side… the only one on the new side… but I will take it if I am doing very hard content. Liquid Movement - adds more to the ability when not Reckless making this ability more worth taking when tanking. decent addition and with others makes the dps side a real option. Fluid Combination - reducing the end line…. I don’t think it needed to be reduced it was not parsing all that great outside of reckless and even then it was just doing decent… ok fine… Waveform - adding dps to this ability, is this to offset the reduction on the Fluid Combination?... whatever. this with the added dps from Liquid Movement the dps from this should be decent when tanking and better when reckless. Serene Energy - 10-11k ward every 10 sec's… ok 1k hps I think it worth 2 points and will probably have it all of the time.

[Karagon]

Ok, now it's at least something

Winds of Serenity - really the hate transfer was more uselfull. After applying 50% reduced damage to a target no need to heal it!!! Healer in group would heal it using 1 groupheal. So now this ability is useless.

Crushing Winds - ok critbonus increase. But for 5 sec's???? Really don't help a lot and don't cost 3 AAs - almost useless

 Winds of Retribution - this one now is good. Thanks for listening!!! 

Liquid Movement now also adds 1/2/4 ticks to Waveform. Fluid Combination has had its damaged reduced. It no longer inflicts bonus damage if the monk is not the current target. 

Don't really understand what was the point to upgrade one damage spell and nerf the 2nd one. Overall dps didn't change a lot... Except the fact about removing the bonus component of Fluid Combination

Serene Energy has had its ward doubled. 

 Thanks for this one too. Now ward will do some work. And it cost it's AA spending for sure.

But still - Why winds of salvation can't work on caster??? can't even use them when solo to get immunity!!!

Still my suggestions:

1)Make Winds of Salvation being cast on caster: If that let it don't grant us damage reduction component, only the Prevent AOE component - that would be enough to make ability usefull, and not too imbalanced! 

2) Make it being used under all control effects!!! - it don't change anything a lot - but would make the left line more desirable to take - as soon as with the combination with the granting immunity upgrage - it would be usefull sometimes.

So we would be able to use it to grant us immunity's that we need if we don't want to teleport some other player to us, also would survive AOE's if we are not tanking the mob, a bit heal to us or critbonus - if we take those upgrades of it.

This would have make at least choice for us what line to take. Crushing winds ability is good... But wasting a lot of AA only for that??? no way((( Don't think that many monks would do that. Almost none.

[Silzin]

Very good Suggestions, and then if we cant use it on the MT or a healer it still has a use. but i am afraid it may be to late. ;(

[Karagon]

it's not really. They still can change it. Even if expansion already goes live.

[Karagon]

Still no changes for us?(

Please make left line desireble to take not for only the last ability... All other's tank left line is better and get more profits to the tanks and to the entire raid than monk's one...

If you still don't wanna make wind's of salvation being cast on monk - let it absorb one magic atack for us. or give 15% absorb to group or smth like that. Let it become USEFULL in raid!!! Also let it being work under control effects!!! Really the only thing it makes now - to save someone in raid - even more - not save but grad under mob. Other's effects are almost totally useless as soon as most of AOE's are not prevented. And 50% damage absorb on a person isn't good until it can cover ALL AOE's not only the one of them in a minute.

But better way - JUST give us AOE prevent + control immunity for 9 sec's (with 3 point in it's upgrade) instead of that ability of teleporting someone to the mob and absorbing some damage to him...

If all stays as it is - most of all would go double stats conversion, or right line. And VERY VERY rare would take full left line for the last ability. It shouldn't be so. Lines should give a choice - not just the fact that one of them is good, and the other one is not.