Raiding is too hard

[Tyrus Dracofire]

wanted to post it before it locked just in case.

some are hard, and some are just pure luck, and few are easy.

just letting the devs to know, i am fed up with raids, and got burn-out and stressed out, quit raiding for now.

reason why...

too many turn-overs in guilds, leaders were trying to keep new recruits updated while some members wanted to move on to newer or unvisited zone, but all that wasted months and never seen those zone when other newer zone just open, leaving some zone not getting "kill-updates" for achievements. having those loads of achievement list is ultimate fail, FAILED concept made by devs by adding too many and bigger list that some of it will never get updated.

hadnt been in any hardmode to get one of Kraytoc's dragon, "eirleen" in hardmode.

some guilds are very picky to force me to play my dirge when i want to play my paladin that need updates.

i agreed with some others that didnt like those "charmed, extreme deathtouch, disarmed, and memwipe-chains, drains gimmicks", i am tired of it. i am sick of combat scripts. anyone can make one mistake and that is raid wipe.

i know tank and spank is very old school and kinda boring, but that okay, but really tired of fighting same boss for 10 to 30 mins of fighting, i rather kill them less than 5 mins and move on quicker.

i used to like raids that is on standard access timer like 1 week wait, now we get 2-3 days wait and on zone rotation keeping the raids on almost every nite, no time for personal quest time or find group to get some quest completed when not in raid. raid in everyday kinda created more stressfull instead of having fun.

there's no fun anymore, it feel like 2nd job.

current devs team need to go back to old school pre-DoF raid zones and see how that system works, and create "copy of current raid zones" for those who got tired of heavy scripts, the devs can study the effect and the behavours of players so they can scale or adjust any future raids, they could make "6-man raid" but no-no those "class" requirement too picky syndrome we been facing with.

pre-update 13, those paladins were prime undead killers when they had deadly bonus vs undeads in raids, now they just unwanted "utility healer" that is almost useless, some are good paladins but they got best healers in raid to make them good fighter when if other tanks are not available.

[Tigerr]

Heavy scripts and difficult encounters are fun... Yknow where all 24 people are required to be on their A++++ game. Encounters that are BROKEN and are luck based are NOT fun.

[Neskonlith]

Our raid alliance of ~5yrs has burned out over the past few months from overtuned DoV encounters demanding too many slots for utility/healers to permit fun semi-pick-up raids. 

We had a solid x2 backbone of regulars and the rest were a random mix of whoever logged in.

As SS dragged on with the "unfun mode" dragging morale down, we got fewer geared regulars logging in, and their replacements naturally have inferior gear/experience which then forces everyone else to carry the newbies, which then adds additional stress, which then prompts more regulars to stop logging in.

[Avirodar]

Neskonlith wrote:

Our raid alliance of ~5yrs has burned out over the past few months from overtuned DoV encounters demanding too many slots for utility/healers to permit fun semi-pick-up raids. 

We had a solid x2 backbone of regulars and the rest were a random mix of whoever logged in.

As SS dragged on with the "unfun mode" dragging morale down, we got fewer geared regulars logging in, and their replacements naturally have inferior gear/experience which then forces everyone else to carry the newbies, which then adds additional stress, which then prompts more regulars to stop logging in.

What you see is the price of being given 5 "trees" which significantly improve our characters abilities, and then the dev's trying to create content to challenge the powerful abilities we were given.The result is either rediculously easy content, or rediculously hard content. With out of control Mudflation, poor itemization, and all kinds of saves/prevents/avoids, it becomes harder and harder for the Devs to find a sweet spot with every single expansion. This is compounded by the size/experience of the EQ2 team, where creative content designers like TimeTravelling are no longer present.And next expansion? We will get even more big hits, big saves, big prevents, big clickies, and DPS boosters, and guess what the devs will do? Release content that gets steam rolled, or release content that is severely overtuned so we can not stomp it with our new abilities. Running on 9 hotbars has been a bit of a squeeze for quite some time now, but all I see the next expansion doing is making the problems you described, even worse.

[Drupal]

Avirodar@Oasis wrote:

Neskonlith wrote:

Our raid alliance of ~5yrs has burned out over the past few months from overtuned DoV encounters demanding too many slots for utility/healers to permit fun semi-pick-up raids. 

We had a solid x2 backbone of regulars and the rest were a random mix of whoever logged in.

As SS dragged on with the "unfun mode" dragging morale down, we got fewer geared regulars logging in, and their replacements naturally have inferior gear/experience which then forces everyone else to carry the newbies, which then adds additional stress, which then prompts more regulars to stop logging in.

What you see is the price of being given 5 "trees" which significantly improve our characters abilities, and then the dev's trying to create content to challenge the powerful abilities we were given.The result is either rediculously easy content, or rediculously hard content. With out of control Mudflation, poor itemization, and all kinds of saves/prevents/avoids, it becomes harder and harder for the Devs to find a sweet spot with every single expansion. This is compounded by the size/experience of the EQ2 team, where creative content designers like TimeTravelling are no longer present.And next expansion? We will get even more big hits, big saves, big prevents, big clickies, and DPS boosters, and guess what the devs will do? Release content that gets steam rolled, or release content that is severely overtuned so we can not stomp it with our new abilities. Running on 9 hotbars has been a bit of a squeeze for quite some time now, but all I see the next expansion doing is making the problems you described, even worse.

Once you start on the path of mudflation, you've pretty much admitted you have no idea what you are doing and no clue how to develop new content.

[CoLD MeTaL]

Avirodar@Oasis wrote:

What you see is the price of being given 5 "trees" which significantly improve our characters abilities, and then the dev's trying to create content to challenge the powerful abilities we were given.

...

I disagree, it isn't the abilities.  Devs looked and said ok they have ACT, GuildConnect, and all those other 3rd party pieces.  They have min /maxed everything to the hilt.  How do you 'give them harder raids' like they keep asking for?  Bam raiders got what they wanted.  They should be happy at this point.  But alas. . .

[The_Cheeseman]

Drupal wrote:

Once you start on the path of mudflation, you've pretty much admitted you have no idea what you are doing and no clue how to develop new content.

This. And unfortunately, the mudflationary spiral tends to keep getting worse since you've trained your players to want bigger numbers, so you can't fail to produce them in each new release or you alienate said players.

But whatever. I am looking forward to being able to solo Rhoen Theer some time next year.

[flankser]

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Drupal wrote:

Once you start on the path of mudflation, you've pretty much admitted you have no idea what you are doing and no clue how to develop new content.

This. And unfortunately, the mudflationary spiral tends to keep getting worse since you've trained your players to want bigger numbers, so you can't fail to produce them in each new release or you alienate said players.

But whatever. I am looking forward to being able to solo Rhoen Theer some time next year.

I wouldn't be surprised if you could do it now

[Ulrichvon]

Tigerr wrote:

Heavy scripts and difficult encounters are fun... Yknow where all 24 people are required to be on their A++++ game. Encounters that are BROKEN and are luck based are NOT fun.

I agree with this to a degree.  You reach a point where the script becomes so specialized that its nearly impossible to try without very specific classes and very specific aa builds, that level of detail begins to drain the fun from the game when it becomes too common.

I love things that require 24 people to be on their A game, 4RT is a awesome example of it. 

I do not like scripts that require me to have 3 tanks with builds x y and z, with atleast 3 coercers, 4 clerics with endlne W, and a bard who can hop on one foot.  Sure the challenge to kill something like this might be exciting a single time, but replaying it quickly becomes droll.

Challenge players more, challenge specific raid builds less.

[Draylore]

With 24 now 25 classes.....each with 320 AAs and now 10 new so called 'prestige' AAs one would have thought EQ2 would have a large list of different ways to skin that virtual cat but just the opposite has happened.  SOE has built content that leaves very very little room for diversity not just for each class but for raid rosters as well.   Not only are we required to have 4 bards and 4 enchanters but they all are required to spec a certain way or else.  To me that has been the biggest cause of "burn-out".

[Bubbaq]

We also need more raid zones for 2 or 3 groups instead of just 4.

[Draylore]

Bubbaq wrote:

We also need more raid zones for 2 or 3 groups instead of just 4.

I would not be surprised if the "new" raid content they say is comming in Sept is/includes an x2.   Requiring 2 bards, 2 coercers, 2 tanks and 4 healers of course =P

[Tigerr]

The only thing they can do to not "require" a certain amount of classes is to make SOME of the group buffs raidwide. A combo of any class= facerollable content just like Skyshrine. Noone is asking for that here. Don't know how Slippery posted one thing and everyone hopped onto the "SOHARD" train. What people are sick of are BROKEN scripts, BROKEN mechanics and POOR itemization..Luck factor in raids is NOT fun. If they made it so 23 SKS and 1 inquis can raid, the end result would be Skyshrine. Raiders are not complaining about the difficulty, they are complaining about the idiotic memwipes/charms that can NOT be controlled and are based entirely on luck. ( Not talking about every mob, memwipes def requires a tank that is paying 100% attention... that= fun difficult). I don't get the whole "why does it require more than 2 healers" thing. If raids are easy enough for people to use 1 healer, don't you think healers would be out of business?.. Specially with the majority of the raid being scout/mage dps. What some people are proposing is NOT balanced. People want to sacrifice heals + utility for moar dps in the raids. Pretty sure that would make more classes undesirable. DEVS, make challenging content... Just w.e you do don't have 100% of the expac luck based, THAT is not fun.

[kcirrot]

Tigerr wrote:

The only thing they can do to not "require" a certain amount of classes is to make SOME of the group buffs raidwide. A combo of any class= facerollable content just like Skyshrine....  If they made it so 23 SKS and 1 inquis can raid, the end result would be Skyshrine. 

OK, but what would be so bad about a raid requiring a more normal distribution of classes?  Where you need 2-4 tanks, 4 healers, 4 utility, and the rest damage.   But the individual classes in the broader group don't matter?   I don't have a dog in this hunt.  My guild abandoned EQ2 shortly after Velious.  My raiding days are over.  But it's fascinating to see folks still asking for such exclusionary content.

It's even more intriguing that SOE seems willing to provide it.

[Ulrichvon]

Bubbaq wrote:

We also need more raid zones for 2 or 3 groups instead of just 4.

I don't mean to be elitest, or a snob, but really, EM SS content is easily 3 grouped, and most can be done 2 grouped.  There is really only a few dps check encounters, and they can be bypassed.

If you find you can't 2 group EM SS, certainly you could 2 group DoV.

I've always felt current x4 content will be x2 content within 6 months.  If we would reign in on statflation, the rewards would fall into place as well.