Brawler Weapons - Block and Delay

[Silzin]

-In SF all Brawler 1 handed weapons were changed from 2.5 to 4.0 (thank you). this was a consistent change starting at the time with one HQ set of weapons and then jumping to the raid weapons. 

-All brawler 1 handed weapons stayed 4.0 until SS came out and this is where we start getting some problems.  The heroic, raid and Mythical 1h weapons are all 5.0.  thank you for being consistent here.  But there is no defensive weapons among them with + Block chance.  There where raid 4.0 DoV weapons that had 9.8 to 23% block on them that were relatively simple to get by Easy Mode and some Hard Mode raiding. 

-With HM Drunder there were a few (2 I think) defensive weapons that had 25%+ block on them and they also had red slots.  These where nice weapons that could be used with all other DoV weapons but not SS weapons.  I can understand wanting to get people out of these weapons and into a new set of weapons. 

-Starting with the Itemization mess in New HM Drunder...  The weapons for Brawlers that I have seen, they have been all 4.0 weapons that can't be used with the weapons from the raid tier just before this, EM SS, nor can they be used with any weapons that may drop in HM SS.  All brawler weapons in SS are 5.0. 

-More disturbing to me is the presence of only one Defensive weapon in HM Drunder that is a 6.0 delay. (It is called Forceful Mallet of the Avazeks) Looking through the loot tables there appears to be no other Brawler 6.0 weapon in game with over 120 Str/Sta.  Also instead of having +Block Chance it has an ability:  Block Chance that is like a Maintained Proc (wrong term I know) that will not stack with its self just like any other proc of this form. 

-Ok I know why you are doing this since having Brawlers using 2 +Block weapons may give an avoidance tank an advantage, but I was under the impression that brawlers were supposed to have more block than Plate tanks... but I digress back to itemization... If I am missing a +Block weapons out of HM Drunder that is a 4.0, or more 6.0 weapons that has not been discoed WW yet then I apologize. 

-The area of progression after HM Drunder and SS is PoW I do know there is more than one ~30% +Block weapons in there, but do you really want to penalize all brawlers that are not in the 48 guilds WW that are farming PoW trash for these Defensive weapons? 

-Weapon Delays in Itemization need to have a consistency between raid tiers.  Also Brawlers outside of PoW need to have an effective set of Defensive weapons that they can use.  Most raiding forces don't wait to start farming the next area of content till they are don killing everything from the last one.  Itemization needs to have a coherent and consistent path for offensive and defensive weapons. 

[The_Cheeseman]

They can never get the delays for brawler weapons right. They seem to decide to change them every expansion for no conceivable reason, and the most recent itemization revamp randomized the delays on all the existing brawler weapons, which made a lot of my old SF utility/defensive weapons unusable (ones with ward procs, etc.). It's even worse for Beastlords, especially if you want to dual wield a crushing and piercing weapons to maintain both skills while you level. Good luck finding any with matching delays.

Honestly, matching weapon delays has always been such a pain for any dual-wielding class, I think they should just change melee auto-attack to no longer be delayed by combat arts, the way spell auto-attack isn't delayed by casting spells. This would also be a boon to newer players, who don't realize that not timing their auto-attack swings with their combat arts is costing them massive DPS. I mean, it's not really their fault that they don't know--the issue isn't documented anywhere in-game, and most people have to download a 3rd-party auto-attack bar to keep track of it.

I am sure people will rage about my suggesting that they "dumb-down" the game, but honestly, what real benefit is there to the current mechanics? Wouldn't it be nice not having to worry about matching delays, and have more variety in viable weapon choices?

[resiler]

+1 to a lot of this.  I have the standard 5sec SS weapons in my bags, and I even use them occasionally, but with my old 4sec red-slots I get much more uncontested block, Wild Swings, and Armor Ch!nk, without giving up too much DPS.  The 5sec delay mayyybe makes sense from the perspective of assuming a brawler is capped on haste and so an actual 3 second delay might allow for server-side optimization (scouts, you're next if so), but the lack of consistency and lack of block is making the future look pretty rocky to me upgrade-wise (coming from an average casual guild).

-1 to undelayable melee autoattack... our CAs cast so fast, and autoattack is such a high proportion of our damage, we should have to work for it a bit.  Spell autoattack had to be set apart; it's trivial as it is but if it was routinely delayed it would be a complete waste.

[Silzin]

I was about to make a post about how to fix the weapons block, but they already placed the Ability Block Chance (18% block) on the 5.0 SS EM weapon "Protracted Wyvern Stingers of the Underdepths". Thank you. for the heroic geared brawler it would be nice if you did that same for 1-2 group dropped fists. Next they need to either make all Drunder HM and PoW weapons 5.0 or make all SS 4.0 and the stray Drunder HM 6.0's back to 4.0's.

[Silzin]

Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:

*Please do not quote forum violations*

If you are right Buffrat, and I have no reason to doubt you since you have seen every drop in the current content, then this signifies a large stealth nerf to all raiding brawlers.  With plate tanks getting higher and higher protection on their shields and brawlers getting only 18% block chance on our weapons that cannot be stacked together.  Brawlers will not be able to get as much block chance as a plate tanks.   

[Kander]

I am doing an audit of all current brawler weapons (Skyshrine, new Drunder, Old Drunder, Plane of War, Older Raid weapons for Velious) and I will try to make sure they are all at 4 second delays. I will also make sure there are some more seeded block chance weapons.

If you have specific weapons that need looking at send me a PM. I will try to get these changes out by next week.

[Silzin]

Kander wrote:

I am doing an audit of all current brawler weapons (Skyshrine, new Drunder, Old Drunder, Plane of War, Older Raid weapons for Velious) and I will try to make sure they are all at 4 second delays. I will also make sure there are some more seeded block chance weapons.

If you have specific weapons that need looking at send me a PM. I will try to get these changes out by next week.

thank you for the timely attention to this problem. 

[The_Cheeseman]

I must say, it's quite refreshing to see a response to this issue so quickly. Thank you very much, Kander!

[Pokoloko]

Are the changes for delay of Brawler weapons live yet?

I still have 4sec and 5sec delays.

4sec

aITEM 1026098856 -1340189259:Weighted Mace of Dracurion Conquest/a

5sec

aITEM -1111820328 -1138876797ozekar Claws of Bloodshed/a

Would be great if we can just put away with different delays and come up consistently with 5 or 4 secs on all brawler weapons.

[Silzin]

from talking to Kander, any brawler specific 1h weapons that are not 4 sec should be and probably need to be /bugged or PMed to Kander Directly.

[Rasttan]

I have 2 drops from the new Drunder loot table, still dont see any static block chance, the Block Chance Effect does not stack and makes multiple weapons with this effect with the same stats kind of pointless. It also locks Brawlers the Avoidance tank at 18% block from weapons much lower than a shield unless we use old loot drops pre changes.

Incedently very low tier easy to get weapons have the exact same effect 18% as Raid Weapons, are there no tiers to this Block Chance ability?

I have now 4 weapons in my bags with the Block Chance effect and only 1 gives me any benifit

Either let it stack or get busy adding something to one of the other many Block Chance Weapons and add tiers to it

Thank You

[Silzin]

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

I have 2 drops from the new Drunder loot table, still dont see any static block chance, the Block Chance Effect does not stack and makes multiple weapons with this effect with the same stats kind of pointless. It also locks Brawlers the Avoidance tank at 18% block from weapons much lower than a shield unless we use old loot drops pre changes.

Incedently very low tier easy to get weapons have the exact same effect 18% as Raid Weapons, are there no tiers to this Block Chance ability?

I have now 4 weapons in my bags with the Block Chance effect and only 1 gives me any benifit

Either let it stack or get busy adding something to one of the other many Block Chance Weapons and add tiers to it

Thank You

I dont like this change,I say it coming from the time i say the first HM Drunder 6.0 with Block Chance Ability on it i know they would never give us a +Block Chance weapon again.  I am seeing it as a stelth Nurff to all Brawlers in the long run.  But why they dont give differint %'s of Block on harder to get weapons, i dont know. 

Bad thing about it is they will eventualy have to ether jack up CC or strate nurf the 30+ Block CHange weapons that are out there already in some way.  Since they are just so much better then anything else they are going to let drop if this is the trend they are moving to. 

Or they need to let us have larger %'s of Block Chance from the ability.

[Ragnorrokk]

you brawlers need to quit whining, brawler is already overpowered

why would they put block on 2 weapons so then you got more block then a plate tank using a 1 handed weapon holding a shield?

[Kunaak]

cause thats the role of the brawler.... avoidence.

they dont get shields, they get avoidence.

brawler gear not having avoidence on it, is like having a tank wear a buckler instead of tower shield. sure yours still a tank in any case, but it feels like your not really being given the gear to do you job.

[Silzin]

Ragnorrokk wrote:

you brawlers need to quit whining, brawler is already overpowered

why would they put block on 2 weapons so then you got more block then a plate tank using a 1 handed weapon holding a shield?

this is like them removing Block chance from every group and raid shield the current content, then people saying well your shield has Protection thats what it is there for you dont need that extra Block Chance.

[Ragnorrokk]

thats fine. why dont they just add 18+ block chance to all plate fighter weapons.

or make brawler weapons useable by plate tanks too, then i would be all for as much block as you can stack on it

if they do anything to brawlers in general it should be a nerf, they have slightly less mitigation then a plate tank and a load more avoidance.

[Silzin]

Ragnorrokk wrote:

thats fine. why dont they just add 18+ block chance to all plate fighter weapons.

or make brawler weapons useable by plate tanks too, then i would be all for as much block as you can stack on it

if they do anything to brawlers in general it should be a nerf, they have slightly less mitigation then a plate tank and a load more avoidance.

interesting hypotheses, but given the brawler weapons that drop in the current content, getting over about 50% uncontested block for a brawler is going to be near impossible.  it is true that the brawler contested avoidance if much higher than a plate tanks, but if you hold any weight on contested avoidance then you need to do more studying.  look at the Avoidance FAQ.  with the continuously increasing shield protection values and the reduction of Block Chance for brawlers this is a large Nurf to brawler avoidance.  there is a desiccation about the shield protection values already Here.

[Proud_Silence]

I appreciate the delays getting synchronized, however i don't see why you chose 4 sec and not 5 sec. To me this is a nerf. The more often i swing my weapons, the more riposte/damage shields etc are triggered. Howcome you think every plate tank gets to use 6 sec weapons.

I'd chose 10 sec delay if i could, with the matching increased damage rating. going from 5 sec to 4 sec is just another punch in the guts in terms of tanking brawlers.

And on a side note, why is it ok for Beastlords to use our weapons and get the Block chance ? sloppy planing by whoever is in charge of this. all other scouts get to use roundshields if they want block chance, but that comes with the cost of losing massive dps since, you know, they can't slam the roundshield into mob's faces. But beastlords get to use dual wield AND get the defensive part.

Guess it would have taken some brainpower and extra money to think of some beastlord only weapons huh ? Yeah just let them use brawler block % weapons which were invented as substitute for shields.

[Rasttan]

Ragnorrokk wrote:

thats fine. why dont they just add 18+ block chance to all plate fighter weapons.

or make brawler weapons useable by plate tanks too, then i would be all for as much block as you can stack on it

if they do anything to brawlers in general it should be a nerf, they have slightly less mitigation then a plate tank and a load more avoidance.

Um they did nerf Mitt , a plate tank that actually adorns and gears defensively has higher mitt than a brawler and almost the exact same block chance. Higher block chance if they have access to the current gear that drops as brawlers get less block chance from current game drops.

Piece by Piece on current gear theres 250-300+ more mitt on every plate slot.

And they can about match our uncontested block which is the most important stat of them all.

Maybe your still playing 6 months in the past before the game changes and loot changes?

[Ragnorrokk]

the 1800 mitt more that a plate tank gets aint much absorption. realistically a large metal shield should be able to block more then a lil club

not to mention brawler dps is much higher then plate tank, so you want brawlers to have

Higher uncontested block then plate tank

More dps then plate tank

the ability to tank while using 2 weapons

and only 1800 or so mitigation less then a plate tank (this if you look at actual absorption is not much less)

avoidance several thousand points more then plate tank

the heck is the point of even playing a plate tank anymore if you look at anyone progressing they are mostly using brawlers to TANK, why you ask? because they are already OVERPOWERED.

[Silzin]

Class balance must be looked at from a class by class perspective and not a Us Versus Them.  If we where to look at class balance, which is out of the scope of this thread, we would need to look at things between the Defensive tanks and also things between the Offensive tanks.  I do think that more needs to be said about tank DPS and 1-2 tank survivability but NOT HERE. 

the main point of this thread was to address the fact that brawler weapons that where dropping where all over the place for delays.  this has been fixed. 

the 2nd point of this thread was to address, the fact that the only Block Chance of brawler weapons still dropping in game is in the form of a Block Chance Effect that will not stack with itself.  I understand why this change was implemented, since it may be seen to be like a plate tank using 2 shields, but it does not give us that amount of avoidance.  the Block Chance Effect has only 18% block on it in every form it is found in game, unlike all other + Block Chance weapons that we have had access to in the past.  the +Block Chance from early DoV weapons was 5-10%, and as you got better weapons there was a lot of stats scarified on it for more and more +Block Chance.  To a point where in HM Drunder there was at least 2 weapons that had 30% block on them.  there were weapons that had 30% or more Block on them, just like Shields have.  since the base % of brawlers Block is static and can never be raised by items, this gives brawlers a large dependency of the Block Chance that is on the weapons that we use.  this makes the Old weapons much more valuable than the weapons that drop from the same mob today. 

the new weapons that are dropping and the ones in the future need to have an amount that keeps us up with there we as brawlers need to be with avoidance. 

[Rasttan]

Ragnorrokk wrote:

the 1800 mitt more that a plate tank gets aint much absorption. realistically a large metal shield should be able to block more then a lil club

not to mention brawler dps is much higher then plate tank, so you want brawlers to have

Higher uncontested block then plate tank

More dps then plate tank

the ability to tank while using 2 weapons

and only 1800 or so mitigation less then a plate tank (this if you look at actual absorption is not much less)

avoidance several thousand points more then plate tank

the heck is the point of even playing a plate tank anymore if you look at anyone progressing they are mostly using brawlers to TANK, why you ask? because they are already OVERPOWERED.

Your out of touch, Guards can tank anything, SK's are awesome now especially dpsing maybe your a Zerker are you Tour on a third account you sound like him? They are the only class that needs alot of help still.

Defelct was merged with block brawlers deflect attacks they just combined them under the word block, you would expect a brawler to deflect more than another class could block with a shield since the entire premise of the class is based on its ability to avoid.

Its a game theres no realism, haha where did that come from, you shouldn't realistically be fighting dragons and stuff btw, a dragons fire should melt your armour, a 500 ton dragons paw swipe should knock a player 5,000 feet and obliterate them against a wall ...etc.

Go post on your class forums if you think your class needs something since all your doing here is asking for a nerf and adding zero constructive feedback to the thread which has nothing to do at all with comparing classes.

[Junniper]

More to the point is there is no wording on why block does not stack on these weapons.

Block stacks on Wrist, Rings and Charms, Ranged and also Adornments.  Why not weapons??!?

It needs to be either fixed so they do stack or needs to be properly worded.

Personally I hope it gets fixed so they do stack.  

I was one of the unlucky ones who got rid of my EM Drunder weapons that were red slotted and had 25-30 block chances...  /sigh

[Junniper]

*BUMP*

Still waiting on a explaination or fix to this issue.

There are other raid weapons out there from zones before Skyshrine and Drunder that have +% Block Chance and DO stack.

Yet the Skyshrine and HM Drunder zones have the ability called solely "Block Chance" on them which only allows 18% and no stacking.

Come on, let's hear a response or a fix please!  Get rid of that stupid thing and put back +% Block Chance.

[Silzin]

I think that the preserved problem with +Block Chance is several fold.1.    The weapons with +Block Chance where designed as a Shield Replacement for brawlers, as far as stat distribution goes.  2.    Using 2 large +Block Chance weapons gives a brawler a unfair advantage as far as avoidance goes.  3.    Most of the weapons with +Block chance did not have as much block on them as equivalent shields from the same mobs.  there were 2 maybe 3 weapons that had the same or more then the standard shield +Block chance amounts.  there 2 weapons have become the standard "Best in Slot" for anyone how has one.  4.    Do to all of these they have changed the way they are itemizing Block Chance on brawler weapons.  they are not using points on the weapon to give the weapons +Block chance, they are just adding it on as a effect. This means we can't gain advantage of 2 of them at the same time, but also we don’t have to sacrifice weapon stats for the defense of Block Chance.  5.    If there would give brawler weapons the same stats as plate swards, and the same Block chance as plate shields, in the futcher then that would be nice. 

[Rasttan]

Silzin@Crushbone wrote:

I think that the preserved problem with +Block Chance is several fold.1.    The weapons with +Block Chance where designed as a Shield Replacement for brawlers, as far as stat distribution goes.  2.    Using 2 large +Block Chance weapons gives a brawler a unfair advantage as far as avoidance goes.  3.    Most of the weapons with +Block chance did not have as much block on them as equivalent shields from the same mobs.  there were 2 maybe 3 weapons that had the same or more then the standard shield +Block chance amounts.  there 2 weapons have become the standard "Best in Slot" for anyone how has one.  4.    Do to all of these they have changed the way they are itemizing Block Chance on brawler weapons.  they are not using points on the weapon to give the weapons +Block chance, they are just adding it on as a effect. This means we can't gain advantage of 2 of them at the same time, but also we don’t have to sacrifice weapon stats for the defense of Block Chance.  5.    If there would give brawler weapons the same stats as plate swards, and the same Block chance as plate shields, in the futcher then that would be nice. 

The problem is we are losing our edge in block, look at a defensive plate tanks block chance in ACT. Also they can currently get to +130% block chance with aa, gear, adorns ...etc if the tank up. We only have the advantage of saves and dr prevents now and not over a guard anymore they probobly have an edge especially against physical damage aes and effects.

If we reach a point where everyone about hits max block% and uncontested block well then we have an entire new issue, and with statflation I can see that happening sooner than later.

[Zivgar]

I play a guardian as my main and I have no problem with brawlers getting block chance added back to their weapons.

The only thing I would add is that they make it a more defensive weapon, than an offensive weapon. Such as if they create a weapon with block chance they take awayor lower or replace it with another blue stat. Such as if a current weapon has 50 DPS then add 20 block chance and drop the DPS mod from 50 to like 20. (Just an example)

Or they make a brawler weapon that is off-hand only. So keep the blue stats simular to warrior/crusader shield, but as an offhand only weapon.  So then the shield with protection offers more defense, while the weapon is still a more offensive choice, gives the brawler for defensive choices in choosing their weapons.

[Junniper]

Due to the item generator, I doubt stats are gonna change based on if it's a Offence type weapon and a Defence one.

The only difference if going to be the 'proc' that it generates.

The offhand idea pretty much is already there.  Most people probably already use the weapon that has Block Chance in the offhand due to it's limited other proc (if any). 

Just don't know what brought on this sudden change.  Already took away Strikethru Immunity, now lowering Block Chance?

Guess don't want Brawlers to tank in raids?

[vorbaw]

Dagger-Lined Katar of Eons

http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/2438859334 

still 6 sec delay

[denomad]

Not sure if the daily SS weapon is to be included in this change but if so the Almsgiven Claws of Draconic Bloodshed still show a 5.0 delay