Brawler Tenacity Change

[Faildozer]

I know this is going ot be a waste of a response because you are pretty much set in your ways at this point to concede anything but.. I like how you constantly talk about petty class jealous people yet you constantly cry that shadowknights are too overpowered.. No duh, they dont have the same mitigation, thats why they have much higher avoidance, this is nothing new and guess what? the game is balanced around it in heroic situations and even raid situations. The difference is, in raid situations they have the same miti and outclass others in the avoid department and before you say anything about raiding IT DOES MATTER.. You getting upset about people not respecting the fact that there are casuals is just as absurd as you not respecting the fact that they need to balance classes for raiding as well.

Again, you saying brawlers need the current form of brawlers tenacity to live thru heroic content is pretty laughable because if they are using all the charges in brawlers tenacity then either their healer is dead (which they arent normally,) they pulled too much (any tank will die,) or they shouldnt be doing the content anyway because what do you think will happen when brawlers tenacity wears off? If they died 3 times in the period of 1.5 mins what makes you think they wont die the 2.5 mins or longer it is on cooldown??? THINK FEL! they are still going to die...

Also i would like to give a big shoutout to all the brawlers who have managed to overcome so much adversity that no other tanks have to deal with when being undergeared.. oh wait 

[vorbaw]

The_Cheeseman I  too  would like  to  know  what  you  have  tried on  test   to make  you  come to the conclusion that  :

I just don't see these changes having much of an effect on brawler viability

You  did  not specify  if  you  were  referring to  group or  raid viability. If  you are talking about  group  content   then  perhaps  you are  right.  However I would  like to know  which  raid  mobs,  if  any,   you tanked  to come to that  conclusion?

[Serik]

Since fighter heals will no longer be affected by potency, would it be possible to add 1 to 2% increased heal per rank on Enhance: Brawler's Tenacity in the heroic tree?  With only a 50% heal there could be situations where multiple triggers could go off in quick succession, so an extra 10-20% on the heal could help. 

[The_Cheeseman]

vorbaw wrote:

The_Cheeseman I  too  would like  to  know  what  you  have  tried on  test   to make  you  come to the conclusion that  :

I just don't see these changes having much of an effect on brawler viability

You  did  not specify  if  you  were  referring to  group or  raid viability. If  you are talking about  group  content   then  perhaps  you are  right.  However I would  like to know  which  raid  mobs,  if  any,   you tanked  to come to that  conclusion?

I tanked no raid MOBs to come to that conclusion (unless you count soloing the named in Shard of Hate). I made that conclusion based on my experience with the monk class, my knowledge of EQ2 game mechanics, and an analysis of the specific effects of the changes. Nowhere have I claimed to have conclusive evidence to support my conclusion, in fact I have mentioned several times that I am still worried about unintended side-effects.

Furthermore, I fail to see how tanking raid MOBs would be a valid testing procedure. There are simply too many variables in play, and it would be impossible to replicate the encounters enough times to acquire any useful data. What, exactly, would you expect to learn from that?

I stated my opinion as an eight-year veteran of the monk class. I have yet to see anybody in this thread provide more compelling evidence to support their own arguments. Do you disagree with my assessment? If so, feel free to explain your reasoning, I have never taken issue with amending my position when presented with a reasonable alternative.

Note that by "brawler viability" I mean that after these changes, I think brawlers (more specifically monks, I am no bruiser expert) will still be entirely serviceable tanks, even if we are not as strong as we are currently on Live. In other words, I don't think the sky is falling.

[The_Cheeseman]

Serik@Butcherblock wrote:

Since fighter heals will no longer be affected by potency, would it be possible to add 1 to 2% increased heal per rank on Enhance: Brawler's Tenacity in the heroic tree?  With only a 50% heal there could be situations where multiple triggers could go off in quick succession, so an extra 10-20% on the heal could help. 

I think this is a great idea that will help make the Heroic Tree enhancement AA a more competitive option than the current Test version.

[Rasttan]

Bumping my post, I really feel this ability recieved to drastic of a change, 1 min is to short of a duration especially with the AA investment.  60 seconds is just to short of an ability, 10AA to get a third trigger which has 15 seconds to be used is a horrible return for those AA points.

With the overuse of 1 shot death mechanics due to scripts/AE's I feel this ability needs a bit of tweaking either in duration or make it until triggered with 10AA and drop the third charge off.

And my standard disclaimer, I'm sorry if you other tank classes dont like your deathsave try get it fixed in your own post, as I am trying to get mine fixed here in this post.

Peace Out

[Yimway]

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

With the overuse of 1 shot death mechanics due to scripts/AE's I feel this ability needs a bit of tweaking either in duration or make it until triggered with 10AA and drop the third charge off.

Doing this would also require the reuse timer not to start until that 2nd proc went off.   Is this really the direction we want to go?

[Rasttan]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

With the overuse of 1 shot death mechanics due to scripts/AE's I feel this ability needs a bit of tweaking either in duration or make it until triggered with 10AA and drop the third charge off.

Doing this would also require the reuse timer not to start until that 2nd proc went off.   Is this really the direction we want to go?

As opposed to 45 second duration which is all you get currently with the 2 charges unless you want to use 10AA its nothing more than a 1 shot emergency AE/script blocker now and it doesnt fit in well with this games raid zones. To much happens to often on half the fights. And im for killing tanks and forcing switches but anymore you stare at timers and casting bars instead of tank because of the frequency of such effects, its a game of blocking AEs/scripts not maintaining Inc damage while working with your healers. Anyhow what I really want is content ready when its released then the point would be moot but that will never happen.

[Yimway]

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Doing this would also require the reuse timer not to start until that 2nd proc went off.   Is this really the direction we want to go?

As opposed to 45 second duration which is all you get currently with the 2 charges unless you want to use 10AA its nothing more than a 1 shot emergency AE/script blocker now and it doesnt fit in well with this games raid zones. To much happens to often on half the fights. And im for killing tanks and forcing switches but anymore you stare at timers and casting bars instead of tank because of the frequency of such effects, its a game of blocking AEs/scripts not maintaining Inc damage while working with your healers. Anyhow what I really want is content ready when its released then the point would be moot but that will never happen.

I know what you mean.  I think I would prefer this ability to retain the 90s timer and stay at 2 triggers, but that isn't the way they want to go with it.  I'd prefer a nerf of 30s longer on reuse speed instead of the direction they are going with it.

[Silzin]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

With the overuse of 1 shot death mechanics due to scripts/AE's I feel this ability needs a bit of tweaking either in duration or make it until triggered with 10AA and drop the third charge off.

Doing this would also require the reuse timer not to start until that 2nd proc went off.   Is this really the direction we want to go?

If there where to rework the Heroic AA so at 10 points it makes it until triggered and the reuse didnt start until the 2nd trigger went off then i would for one very much like that more than it is know.  this whey it would be more of the death save not just a 3 trigger stone skin.

If this was changed this way I think the Warrior death save should be changed to at least get a 2nd trigger and maybe shorten the duration down off of 10 mints?

[Yimway]

Silzin@Crushbone wrote:

If there where to rework the Heroic AA so at 10 points it makes it until triggered and the reuse didnt start until the 2nd trigger went off then i would for one very much like that more than it is know.  this whey it would be more of the death save not just a 3 trigger stone skin.

If this was changed this way I think the Warrior death save should be changed to at least get a 2nd trigger and maybe shorten the duration down off of 10 mints?

That sounds reasonable and it does make it more of a deathsave than something used to intentionally survive scripted events.

But I think SoE wants you to treat it as an ability that will prevent 1-2 scripted death events rather than being a traditional deathsave.

Something needs to be done with the aa investment though.  3 triggers in 60s is worthless given how few death hits, or ae's of death come faster than 30s.  Even if it was 70-80 seconds, if timed well it could cover 3 hits of something on a 30s timer.

I personally would prefer it to remain 3 triggers and have a 1:18 durration.  this would allow me ample time to cover 3 hits of something on a 36s timer.  Anything less than 1:12 durration, there simply is absolutely no need for a 3rd trigger from my perspective.

[Silzin]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

That sounds reasonable and it does make it more of a deathsave than something used to intentionally survive scripted events.

But I think SoE wants you to treat it as an ability that will prevent 1-2 scripted death events rather than being a traditional deathsave.

Something needs to be done with the aa investment though.  3 triggers in 60s is worthless given how few death hits, or ae's of death come faster than 30s.  Even if it was 70-80 seconds, if timed well it could cover 3 hits of something on a 30s timer.

I personally would prefer it to remain 3 triggers and have a 1:18 durration.  this would allow me ample time to cover 3 hits of something on a 36s timer.  Anything less than 1:12 durration, there simply is absolutely no need for a 3rd trigger from my perspective.

I suspect that the fact that people are using this ability to avoid scripted events is why it is getting nurfed to it cant be used to avoid those scripted events.  So be making it more of a normal death save designed to prevent random deaths, people should try to save them for those times and use other abilities to deal with scripts. 

But this is only be trying to guess that the Dev's have a logic behind why they do things.  I may be off in assuming this tho. 

[The_Cheeseman]

I agree that changing Tenacity to a 2-trigger, until-canceled effect would make more sense. It would be more appropriate for its original function (avoiding random death due to avoidance failure streaks) and wouldn't feel like such an exploitative "script avoidance" ability, like it does now.

Actually, it may be more interesting to make it a single-trigger, until-cancelled effect on a reasonably short recast (say, 60 seconds or so). That would give brawlers a means of living through dangerous avoidance-failure streaks, but leave us vulnerable for a short time afterward. The heroic tree enhancement AA could shorten the recast, increase the heal amount, or even provide a short-term survivability buff after triggering. Just brainstorming some ways to make Tenacity more unique, while still being useful.

Honestly, I'd much rather see SOE remove all tank deathsaves entirely and also remove insta-gib attacks from MOBs, but I suppose that's out of the question.

[Soul_Dreamer]

Ummm, just to check I've not got the wrong end of the stick you want:

Incombat castable bloodletter style death save with 2 triggers, a 60 second recast and then the AA to reduce this recast even further and add other benefits?

[Boli32]

5m base recast single trigger death save until cancelled; that's the pally one and its "overpowered".

If you're going for multiple triggers until cancelled the recast needs much higher than 60s.

[The_Cheeseman]

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Ummm, just to check I've not got the wrong end of the stick you want:

Incombat castable bloodletter style death save with 2 triggers, a 60 second recast and then the AA to reduce this recast even further and add other benefits?

Not quite. What I suggested was a single-trigger, until-cancelled death save with a "reasonably short" recast. I suggested perhaps around 60 seconds, and I then threw out some suggestions for the heroic AA. I only suggested 60 seconds as a sort of example of what I meant by "reasonably short", obviously the recast would need to be balanced for whatever power level the devs feel is appropriate. I merely intended to make the point that since brawlers are more vulnerable to one-shot deaths due to avoidance mechanics, our death save should reflect that in its uptime.

As I said, I am just brainstorming, not submitting a formal proposal.

[The_Cheeseman]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

5m base recast single trigger death save until cancelled; that's the pally one and its "overpowered".

If you're going for multiple triggers until cancelled the recast needs much higher than 60s.

I don't recall anybody ever calling the Paladin death save "overpowered."

[Boli32]

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

5m base recast single trigger death save until cancelled; that's the pally one and its "overpowered".

If you're going for multiple triggers until cancelled the recast needs much higher than 60s.

I don't recall anybody ever calling the Paladin death save "overpowered."

It as been called overpowered as in its own way it is better than the other plate tanks deathsave BUT it is *far* less than what is demanded for tenacity change in this thread.

If you want an until-cancelled death prevent castable in combat to prevent random spike damage (most of what a pally save is used for) then:

- 2 triggers 7min base-recast (second trigger added with herioc AA)

Better than the pally; better than bloodletter.. better than the other tanks and more than fair.

[Rageincarnate]

This speculation isn't helping.

They are never going to give a until canceled duration because it means you can use it to survive reckless stance.

See how this stupid stance interferes with tank "tanking".

And good to see you boli.  I thought you quit years ago.

[The_Cheeseman]

Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:

This speculation isn't helping.

They are never going to give a until canceled duration because it means you can use it to survive reckless stance.

See how this stupid stance interferes with tank "tanking".

And you don't call that speculation?

[Silzin]

The_Cheeseman wrote:

I agree that changing Tenacity to a 2-trigger, until-canceled effect would make more sense. It would be more appropriate for its original function (avoiding random death due to avoidance failure streaks) and wouldn't feel like such an exploitative "script avoidance" ability, like it does now.

Actually, it may be more interesting to make it a single-trigger, until-cancelled effect on a reasonably short recast (say, 60 seconds or so). That would give brawlers a means of living through dangerous avoidance-failure streaks, but leave us vulnerable for a short time afterward. The heroic tree enhancement AA could shorten the recast, increase the heal amount, or even provide a short-term survivability buff after triggering. Just brainstorming some ways to make Tenacity more unique, while still being useful.

Honestly, I'd much rather see SOE remove all tank deathsaves entirely and also remove insta-gib attacks from MOBs, but I suppose that's out of the question.

I think even if they left the duration the same as it is atm and just dropped it to be a 1 trigger until-cancelled normally (I would like to see 2 triggers) effect.  then with the Heroic AA add a .... 6-8 sec involn when it triggers and a reuse reduction or something then that would be a lot better of a "Death Save" as you mentioned.

I think all death saves need to have at least 2 triggers with the way so many events are in the game where there are more than 1 tick of death at the same time it seems.  I may be off with this part tho.  I could throw out ideas for the other death saves to bring them up to pare, but I am sure that the people that play those classes could do a better job of that. 

[Bruener]

It really depends on how the Devs want Tenacity to work.

If they want it to be a Death Save that is an "oh, crap" the healers screwed up Death Save like SKs than it would make sense to change it to a couple triggers until cancelled but not castable in combat or with an extremely long recast like 10 minutes.

If they want it to be used as a regular save like it has been in practice than the current change is balanced and it still is more powerful than any other tanks temp saves with how long the duration is, not being eaten up for sure every hit like a stoneskin, and still a fast reuse.

[Yimway]

Bruener wrote:

If they want it to be used as a regular save like it has been in practice than the current change is balanced and it still is more powerful than any other tanks temp saves with how long the duration is, not being eaten up for sure every hit like a stoneskin, and still a fast reuse.

I don't think anyone is really debating that, but the question is, what to do with the 10 AA investment.  Adding a 3rd trigger with a 60s durration is essentially pointless for how it appears devs intend for this ability to be used.

[Bruener]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:

If they want it to be used as a regular save like it has been in practice than the current change is balanced and it still is more powerful than any other tanks temp saves with how long the duration is, not being eaten up for sure every hit like a stoneskin, and still a fast reuse.

I don't think anyone is really debating that, but the question is, what to do with the 10 AA investment.  Adding a 3rd trigger with a 60s durration is essentially pointless for how it appears devs intend for this ability to be used.

Are you telling me that nobody would invest in that?

An additional trigger of being safe to "die" for 60 seconds is pretty big.  Yeah it might not go off every time, but than again other Fighter Death Saves that can't be used nearly as often hardly ever trigger.

I am sure every raid tanking Brawler will still take this AA, while non-Raiding Brawlers didn't need it in the first place.

[Yimway]

Bruener wrote:

Are you telling me that nobody would invest in that?

Just don't really need it, since nothing that must be avoided comes 3 times in 60 seconds.  I would waver on dumping 10 points into that unless I just didn't have much else useful.

If each point added 1s to the duration, it would make it much more interesting.

[Bruener]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Are you telling me that nobody would invest in that?

Just don't really need it, since nothing that must be avoided comes 3 times in 60 seconds.  I would waver on dumping 10 points into that unless I just didn't have much else useful.

If each point added 1s to the duration, it would make it much more interesting.

The point is without the AA the Death Save is best in game.  With the AA it just secured it.

If the goal is simply to make people have to spend the AA in it than back the duration back down to 50 seconds and have the AA increase it by 1 second per duration than along with the extra trigger for the last point.

Personally I think that Death Saves should be more like SKs and made an until cancelled buff that can't be cast in combat.  Make the AA simply increase the amount of heal % that it can do, or make it proc a stoneskin when a trigger procs.

Really though I can't see any serious raiding Brawler not taking the AA for the extra Trigger.  The extra trigger becomes a safe that might not be used every time, but on a bad auto attack roll or a bump in the encounter it would make a huge difference.

Just thinking about how many times I hear one of our Brawlers tell the raid all 3 Tenacity trigger proc'd in a short time period would be the difference between them living and them dying a lot more.

[Yimway]

Bruener wrote:

The point is without the AA the Death Save is best in game.  With the AA it just secured it.

If the goal is simply to make people have to spend the AA in it than back the duration back down to 50 seconds and have the AA increase it by 1 second per duration than along with the extra trigger for the last point.

I think its a mistake to categorize these things as 'death saves'.  A persistent if you die buff is one thing,  an ability with a short duration and limited amount of uses is another.

It's clear that this isn't intended to be a 'death save' in the traditional sense, It isn't intended to prevent a death cause someone failed to do something.  It's intended to allow the player to live thru 2 things that otherwise would have been sure deaths in a specified short period of time.

To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with bloodletter or UW, as those abilities are designed for different purposes.  Those abilities have slightly more utility as they can also be used the same way tenacity is (with just a super long cool down), but tenacity is designed to be used to counter the same events that blocks are typically used for.

There is no need to block 3 events in 60 seconds, so the aa choice is pretty wasted at this point, however there are a few places where blocking 3 events in 65 seconds would be useful.  Evidently SoE feels the class should have one less block available on their rotation, in which case this AA could use a little attention.  Given the amount of nerfs thrown at the class in total, doing something else with this aa choice seems warranted.

[Bruener]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Bruener wrote:

The point is without the AA the Death Save is best in game.  With the AA it just secured it.

If the goal is simply to make people have to spend the AA in it than back the duration back down to 50 seconds and have the AA increase it by 1 second per duration than along with the extra trigger for the last point.

I think its a mistake to categorize these things as 'death saves'.  A persistent if you die buff is one thing,  an ability with a short duration and limited amount of uses is another.

It's clear that this isn't intended to be a 'death save' in the traditional sense, It isn't intended to prevent a death cause someone failed to do something.  It's intended to allow the player to live thru 2 things that otherwise would have been sure deaths in a specified short period of time.

To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with bloodletter or UW, as those abilities are designed for different purposes.  Those abilities have slightly more utility as they can also be used the same way tenacity is (with just a super long cool down), but tenacity is designed to be used to counter the same events that blocks are typically used for.

There is no need to block 3 events in 60 seconds, so the aa choice is pretty wasted at this point, however there are a few places where blocking 3 events in 65 seconds would be useful.  Evidently SoE feels the class should have one less block available on their rotation, in which case this AA could use a little attention.  Given the amount of nerfs thrown at the class in total, doing something else with this aa choice seems warranted.

I can get hit with enough damage in a couple seconds on some encounters to kill me 3 times.

All I know even if you don't "categorize" it as a Death Save and instead categorize it like you said....it is still the best of its kind in-game and the availability to ensure you can go through 3 deaths before you really die is an extremely powerful ability.

I mean if you try and compare it to "similar" type of abilities no other ability is even close.  You have ToS from Guards that doesn't touch the usefullness of Tenacity with 3 Triggers.

And as far as "everything" that has been taken away from Brawlers the Tenacity change is the only significant change period.  Strike through immunity by some is considered a buff since they can use Tsunami type abilities in offensive now and not worry about being struck through.  And given that mobs had their strike through actually toned down it is a very little increase to the amount of times they actually get hit.  Than the only other thing they are seeing is the mitigation nerf which is across the board the same for all fighters.  If anything Mitigation for Brawlers should have been nerfed more since they actually have equal mitigation to other Plate Fighters and with their Temps they actually have more mitigation.

One little nerf that still leaves them with the most powerful ability of its type in-game that gets even better with the AA.

[The_Cheeseman]

The main issue I see isn't one of power--I think we all agree that Tenacity is powerful. However, I feel it doesn't perform the role that the class actually needs. Brawlers are the tank class most threatened by unpredictable death due to streaky avoidance failures, but we have a death save that requires us to predict our death within a fairly narrow window. For every time your guild's brawlers have seen all three triggers of Tenacity fire off in quick succession, I am sure there have been 3 more instances of the entire ability wearing off without ever triggering. Or them getting randomly killed out of the blue while the ability was not in effect, either because it was on cooldown, or because nothing particularly dangerous was happening and they just got screwed by the RNG.

In it's current form, Tenacity is basically used as a means of surviving scripted auto-death effects, or AoEs that you don't want to joust. It fails to provide the protection a brawler needs from unpredictable deaths, which was a major cause of brawlers being considered ineffective tanks during TSO and previous eras. Avoidance mechanics being as they are, brawlers tend to take damage in less predictable spikes, making healing less efficient and random one-shots a larger concern. I just feel it's strange that our death save does not reflect that aspect of the class.

Unless Tenacity was specifically designed to maintain that weakness, which is a possibility. I personally don't think it is a good design choice however, as it makes brawlers feel like part-time tanks, which quickly leads to role identity issues.

[Yimway]

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Avoidance mechanics being as they are, brawlers tend to take damage in less predictable spikes, making healing less efficient and random one-shots a larger concern. I just feel it's strange that our death save does not reflect that aspect of the class.

I'm not sure I agree with that sentiment anymore.  It was true at one time, but in reality the brawler just doesn't spike at all, cause he gets hit so infrequently wards are up to cover so much of their incoming damage.

I do not have the observation that our raiding brawlers spike more than our raiding plate tanks, in fact, it seems quite the opposite.