Raiding! 5 groups !

Rageincarnate · 07-05-2012, 10:47 AM

I'm about to blow your mind.

5 groups. go!

with less population and new servers.. it should be possible. I generally raid with little to no lag nowadays.

5 groups opens more raid spots, and allows for more dps and more coordination and more advanced scripts.

Who cares if raid dps goes up? great! ... the chance for a wipe also goes up! great!

Gealaen_Gaiamancer · 07-05-2012, 11:11 AM

Why limit it to 5 groups? I used to run raids in EQ1 with more than 100 characters* at the same time. Without a "raid window."

Uphill, both ways, in the snow. Whippersnappers.

*Okay, that didn't happen all the time--but even with the eventual raid window that was added to EQ1 we did sometimes need to start a second raid because we had more than the 72 that would fit in the first raid.

Edited to add footnote.

DamselInDistress · 07-05-2012, 11:13 AM

wow

Gealaen_Gaiamancer · 07-05-2012, 11:15 AM

DamselInDistress wrote:

wow

Point of clarification--I don't really think that allowing more than 4 groups into a raid is necessary. I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand, but I will certainly not hold back from gentle sarcasm.

Edit: Missed a letter. Stupid fingers.

DamselInDistress · 07-05-2012, 11:31 AM

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

DamselInDistress wrote:
wow
Point of clarification--I don't really think that allowing more than 4 groups into a raid is necessary. I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand, but I will certainly not hold back from gentle sarcasm.

Edit: Missed a letter. Stupid fingers.

you read my mind sir !

Arielle Nightshade · 07-05-2012, 12:46 PM

Even on AB, raids are having a tough time filling FOUR groups, let alone 5. Unless you want all beastlords, then it's cool.

Yimway · 07-05-2012, 01:43 PM

Arielle Nightshade wrote:

Even on AB, raids are having a tough time filling FOUR groups, let alone 5. Unless you want all beastlords, then it's cool.

We would have no issue filling 5 or even 8 group raids.

The OP's point is valid though, it would only increase the chances of someone failing the script and wiping everyone.

Rageincarnate · 07-05-2012, 01:53 PM

Honestly, the concept is most likely silly i realize.

There has been countless threads about... i wanna play this but there's no raid spots !!

Rather then nerfing the bajesus out of classes to make then useless, do exactly what they asked.. open up more raid spots.

Think what you like, i threw it out there just to get you guys thinking about alternate ways to get people into raids rather then things like "reckless stance" :/

Rahatmattata · 07-05-2012, 02:16 PM

Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:

Think what you like, i threw it out there just to get you guys thinking about alternate ways to get people into raids rather then things like "reckless stance" :/

You don't really think if they gave raids another 6 slots that people would be filling those slots with tanks do you? Anyway, it's not going to happen.

Andok · 07-05-2012, 02:28 PM

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:

I used to run raids in EQ1 with more than 100 characters* at the same time. Without a "raid window."

Haha! That brought back some memories! I raided in EQ1 a few times and one raid had nearly that number (probably closer to 75). My job was just clicking one spell (complete heal) in order with several other clerics, and rezzing people so they would get back some XP. Weeee! Fun.

Regolas · 07-05-2012, 07:13 PM

I kinda understand why they moved away from unlimited raid members of eq1. Preventing zerging, reducing lag, making encounters balanced around 24 people, etc. But it is a shame that it makes raiding so specialist. I like the idea that you can have options. Got the exact class makeup? Great! Kill it with the minimal people, more chance of getting loot. Not got enough T1 dps classes? Not enough utility? Not enough heals? No worries! Lets just bring an extra 12 people and it will die just as quick! I miss eq1 raiding! Having said that, I'm sure I'd prefer the strat based eq2 raiding if I could ever have the time to do it!

Seiffil · 07-05-2012, 09:09 PM

Andok wrote:

Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote:
I used to run raids in EQ1 with more than 100 characters* at the same time. Without a "raid window."
Haha! That brought back some memories! I raided in EQ1 a few times and one raid had nearly that number (probably closer to 75). My job was just clicking one spell (complete heal) in order with several other clerics, and rezzing people so they would get back some XP. Weeee! Fun.

Memories...I recall a terris thule kill in PoP right after we killed her the first time, the 2nd kill we went from 70ish to 120ish people since they suddenly realized they could get flagged without having to worry about dying 20 times figuring out the strat. Or 140 people in zone for the guild's first Emperor kill in ssra temple. Or...the 3-4 100+ person raid forces in NToV/WW ToV and the SS faction area of ToV.

That being said, I don't think increasing the raid size is necessarily the best idea. It was fine in EQ1 to the extent that the utility provided by the utility classes could be spread around. You only needed one shaman and one enchanter to buff the raid, and then also debuff and slow the mobs. Bards were nice to have, but what they provided didn't really provide anywhere near the relative amount of dps that bards in EQ2 bring to the game. If you add a 5th or 6th group, you'll just see another 2 spots per group for utility, DPS, and healers, you might have a raid if they don't keep their 3rd fighter in the raid at all times, let them stick around, but those thinking it'll open the door for a 4th or 5th fighter to always be in the raid, that's not likely.

The other part is that you'll get SOE to start designing fights for 5 groups vs 4, the dps requirements will most likely increase, you've also added more chances for it to fail. It won't get what people think it will, it'll just mean stacking more of the same classes in the raid again.

Hateeternal · 07-06-2012, 11:13 AM

There are only a few lucky servers left where people can say "we could fill more than 4 groups" and usually one has to struggle to fill 4 groups so a fifth group filled with 2-3 people wouldn't really make that much sense.

Also, if you had 5-group raids now you would also have to revisit ALL of the raid content that is in the game at this point to make it fit - I highly doubt that's what SOE wants to do...

The point of having (in case you could fill 5 groups) 6 more possible morons who can't move or read red text wiping your raid has already been said... SMILEY

ivoryseeker · 07-06-2012, 12:13 PM

With the servers all having such a drastic difference in population, why wouldn't they simply scale the raids to the number of people in the raid? Set a minimum to like 10 to enter and simply scale the HP and overall damage of the encounters. Making adjustments to spike damage would be the only really concern. With a 100 man raid you wouldn't want your entire melee party wiped in one AE hit. That way if 25-30 people went, it would remain just as challenging but allow more people the chance to raid. Just a thought...

Arielle Nightshade · 07-06-2012, 01:54 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Arielle Nightshade wrote:
Even on AB, raids are having a tough time filling FOUR groups, let alone 5. Unless you want all beastlords, then it's cool.
We would have no issue filling 5 or even 8 group raids.
The OP's point is valid though, it would only increase the chances of someone failing the script and wiping everyone.

Moving to your server RIGHT MEOW.

07-05-2012, 11:11 AM	#2
Gealaen_Gaiamancer Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Unrest Posts: 157	Why limit it to 5 groups? I used to run raids in EQ1 with more than 100 characters* at the same time. Without a "raid window." Uphill, both ways, in the snow. Whippersnappers. Okay, that didn't happen all the time--but even with the eventual raid window that was added to EQ1 we did sometimes need to start a second raid because we had more than the 72 that would fit in the first raid. Edited to add footnote. __________________ Fight with honor and triumph!*

07-05-2012, 11:15 AM	#4
Gealaen_Gaiamancer Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Unrest Posts: 157	DamselInDistress wrote: wow Point of clarification--I don't really think that allowing more than 4 groups into a raid is necessary. I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand, but I will certainly not hold back from gentle sarcasm. Edit: Missed a letter. Stupid fingers. __________________ Fight with honor and triumph!

07-05-2012, 11:31 AM	#5
DamselInDistress Champion Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 510	Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote: DamselInDistress wrote: wow Point of clarification--I don't really think that allowing more than 4 groups into a raid is necessary. I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand, but I will certainly not hold back from gentle sarcasm. Edit: Missed a letter. Stupid fingers. you read my mind sir !

07-05-2012, 01:43 PM	#7
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Arielle Nightshade wrote: Even on AB, raids are having a tough time filling FOUR groups, let alone 5. Unless you want all beastlords, then it's cool. We would have no issue filling 5 or even 8 group raids. The OP's point is valid though, it would only increase the chances of someone failing the script and wiping everyone. __________________

07-05-2012, 02:16 PM	#9
Rahatmattata Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,232	Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote: Think what you like, i threw it out there just to get you guys thinking about alternate ways to get people into raids rather then things like "reckless stance" :/ You don't really think if they gave raids another 6 slots that people would be filling those slots with tanks do you? Anyway, it's not going to happen. __________________ A Cure For Cancer

07-05-2012, 10:47 AM	#1
Rageincarnate Server: Unrest Guild: Vindication Rank: Officer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 396	I'm about to blow your mind. 5 groups. go! with less population and new servers.. it should be possible. I generally raid with little to no lag nowadays. 5 groups opens more raid spots, and allows for more dps and more coordination and more advanced scripts. Who cares if raid dps goes up? great! ... the chance for a wipe also goes up! great!

07-05-2012, 11:13 AM	#3
DamselInDistress Champion Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 510	wow

07-05-2012, 12:46 PM	#6
Arielle Nightshade Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,727	Even on AB, raids are having a tough time filling FOUR groups, let alone 5. Unless you want all beastlords, then it's cool.

07-05-2012, 01:53 PM	#8
Rageincarnate Server: Unrest Guild: Vindication Rank: Officer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 396	Honestly, the concept is most likely silly i realize. There has been countless threads about... i wanna play this but there's no raid spots !! Rather then nerfing the bajesus out of classes to make then useless, do exactly what they asked.. open up more raid spots. Think what you like, i threw it out there just to get you guys thinking about alternate ways to get people into raids rather then things like "reckless stance" :/

07-05-2012, 02:28 PM	#10
Andok Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 1,039	Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote: I used to run raids in EQ1 with more than 100 characters* at the same time. Without a "raid window." Haha! That brought back some memories! I raided in EQ1 a few times and one raid had nearly that number (probably closer to 75). My job was just clicking one spell (complete heal) in order with several other clerics, and rezzing people so they would get back some XP. Weeee! Fun.

07-05-2012, 07:13 PM	#11
Regolas Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 603	I kinda understand why they moved away from unlimited raid members of eq1. Preventing zerging, reducing lag, making encounters balanced around 24 people, etc. But it is a shame that it makes raiding so specialist. I like the idea that you can have options. Got the exact class makeup? Great! Kill it with the minimal people, more chance of getting loot. Not got enough T1 dps classes? Not enough utility? Not enough heals? No worries! Lets just bring an extra 12 people and it will die just as quick! I miss eq1 raiding! Having said that, I'm sure I'd prefer the strat based eq2 raiding if I could ever have the time to do it!

07-05-2012, 09:09 PM	#12
Seiffil Server: Permafrost Guild: Grievance Rank: Raider Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 854	Andok wrote: Gealaen_Gaiamancer wrote: I used to run raids in EQ1 with more than 100 characters* at the same time. Without a "raid window." Haha! That brought back some memories! I raided in EQ1 a few times and one raid had nearly that number (probably closer to 75). My job was just clicking one spell (complete heal) in order with several other clerics, and rezzing people so they would get back some XP. Weeee! Fun. Memories...I recall a terris thule kill in PoP right after we killed her the first time, the 2nd kill we went from 70ish to 120ish people since they suddenly realized they could get flagged without having to worry about dying 20 times figuring out the strat. Or 140 people in zone for the guild's first Emperor kill in ssra temple. Or...the 3-4 100+ person raid forces in NToV/WW ToV and the SS faction area of ToV. That being said, I don't think increasing the raid size is necessarily the best idea. It was fine in EQ1 to the extent that the utility provided by the utility classes could be spread around. You only needed one shaman and one enchanter to buff the raid, and then also debuff and slow the mobs. Bards were nice to have, but what they provided didn't really provide anywhere near the relative amount of dps that bards in EQ2 bring to the game. If you add a 5th or 6th group, you'll just see another 2 spots per group for utility, DPS, and healers, you might have a raid if they don't keep their 3rd fighter in the raid at all times, let them stick around, but those thinking it'll open the door for a 4th or 5th fighter to always be in the raid, that's not likely. The other part is that you'll get SOE to start designing fights for 5 groups vs 4, the dps requirements will most likely increase, you've also added more chances for it to fail. It won't get what people think it will, it'll just mean stacking more of the same classes in the raid again.

07-06-2012, 11:13 AM	#13
Hateeternal Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Berlin Posts: 155	There are only a few lucky servers left where people can say "we could fill more than 4 groups" and usually one has to struggle to fill 4 groups so a fifth group filled with 2-3 people wouldn't really make that much sense. Also, if you had 5-group raids now you would also have to revisit ALL of the raid content that is in the game at this point to make it fit - I highly doubt that's what SOE wants to do... The point of having (in case you could fill 5 groups) 6 more possible morons who can't move or read red text wiping your raid has already been said... __________________ Ihr seid lÃ¤stig und habt euch noch nicht entschieden, wen ihr nerven werdet. SOE Schedule: 8:00: see what isn't broken yet and break it 10:00: ban players complaining about it on the board 11:00: implement stuff noone wants, that breaks other stuff -repeat-

07-06-2012, 12:13 PM	#14
ivoryseeker Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 8	With the servers all having such a drastic difference in population, why wouldn't they simply scale the raids to the number of people in the raid? Set a minimum to like 10 to enter and simply scale the HP and overall damage of the encounters. Making adjustments to spike damage would be the only really concern. With a 100 man raid you wouldn't want your entire melee party wiped in one AE hit. That way if 25-30 people went, it would remain just as challenging but allow more people the chance to raid. Just a thought... __________________

07-06-2012, 01:54 PM	#15
Arielle Nightshade Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,727	Atan@Unrest wrote: Arielle Nightshade wrote: Even on AB, raids are having a tough time filling FOUR groups, let alone 5. Unless you want all beastlords, then it's cool. We would have no issue filling 5 or even 8 group raids. The OP's point is valid though, it would only increase the chances of someone failing the script and wiping everyone. Moving to your server RIGHT MEOW.