Fighter Changes Coming to Test - Page 2

Koleg · 06-26-2012, 01:41 PM

Piestro wrote:

Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!

Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage".

How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS??

We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother?

We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues.

Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management?

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 01:55 PM

Piestro wrote:

Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!

My testing on the test server will be as much speculation as my revieing the changes now.

I'm not going to be able to replicate 'live scenarios' that are meaningful on test server, so forgive me if I don't get too excited about it.

However, conceptually, parts of this update are just a bad idea to start with, and I don't need to run scenarios on test to identify things that are conceptually wrong.

Twyxx · 06-26-2012, 02:03 PM

Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:

Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage".
How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS??
We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother?
We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues.
Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management?

I think your T1's are doing it wrong.

Koleg · 06-26-2012, 02:06 PM

Piestro wrote:

Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!

For the love of God would someome please see some commonsence in this update

Bruiser-- Bodyguard no longer makes the bruiser immune to Strikethrough. <-- Remove the Daze effect already, how much more of this is going to be shoved around before someone actually understand the effect of Daze in a DPS-Aggro'centric environment when you block the ability to melee. Now your forcing the Bruisers to push themeselves into a losing aggro situation when it actually means something due to the strikethru removal.

Koleg · 06-26-2012, 02:09 PM

Twyxx wrote:

Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:
Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage".
How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS??
We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother?
We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues.
Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management?
I think your T1's are doing it wrong.

That might be true .. but how close you we all want that DPS line to be, becasue this is certainly going to close that gap and in the end why bother with any class than isn't wearing at least chain armor.

Rhita · 06-26-2012, 02:15 PM

Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:

Piestro wrote:
Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!
For the love of God would someome please see some commonsence in this update
Bruiser-- Bodyguard no longer makes the bruiser immune to Strikethrough. <-- Remove the Daze effect already, how much more of this is going to be shoved around before someone actually understand the effect of Daze in a DPS-Aggro'centric environment when you block the ability to melee. Now your forcing the Bruisers to push themeselves into a losing aggro situation when it actually means something due to the strikethru removal.

Theres a daze effect on Bodyguard?

Koleg · 06-26-2012, 02:28 PM

Rhita@Unrest wrote:

Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:
Piestro wrote:
Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!
For the love of God would someome please see some commonsence in this update
Bruiser-- Bodyguard no longer makes the bruiser immune to Strikethrough. <-- Remove the Daze effect already, how much more of this is going to be shoved around before someone actually understand the effect of Daze in a DPS-Aggro'centric environment when you block the ability to melee. Now your forcing the Bruisers to push themeselves into a losing aggro situation when it actually means something due to the strikethru removal.
Theres a daze effect on Bodyguard?

Oh Fudger!!! I read that in a blind rage as something else....

But, while we're on the topic ... please remove the Daze from that other ability too SMILEY

Talathion · 06-26-2012, 02:34 PM

I hope being reckless has its own melee animations!

Twyxx · 06-26-2012, 02:43 PM

Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:

Twyxx wrote:
Koleg@Unrest_old wrote:
Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage".
How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS??
We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother?
We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues.
Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management?
I think your T1's are doing it wrong.
That might be true .. but how close you we all want that DPS line to be, becasue this is certainly going to close that gap and in the end why bother with any class than isn't wearing at least chain armor.

All depends on what the recklessness buff actually turns out to be. Not sure if anyone has gotten on to test yet to see it. If it's significant there will be fights where sk's are up there for sure, monks would be a real asset and people might dust off their zerkers.

Unless they make them as "sky is falling" game-breaking as you're worried about I don't see it as an issue. Most of the harder fights right now you need 3-4 tanks for. Would be nice to have them all be a valuable contributer 100% of the time.

I don't think good t1's are going to have anything to worry about with this. Swashes and bad t1's should be concerned. But they should already be concerned.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 02:44 PM

Twyxx wrote:

All depends on what the recklessness buff actually turns out to be. Not sure if anyone has gotten on to test yet to see it. If it's significant there will be fights where sk's are up there for sure, monks would be a real asset and people might dust off their zerkers.

I'm concerned with the notion that a class gets to be a 'dps role' and not have to worry about agro. Which is certainly what Recklessness sounds like to me...

kalaria · 06-26-2012, 03:07 PM

Fighter DPS in Reckless stance should come no where close to the DPS levels of Preds/Rogues/Sorcs/Summoners what so ever, all things being equal skill/gear wise.

Unless SoE is going to give all classes the ability to fill an entirely new role with the press of a single button... which we all know wont happen.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 03:24 PM

kalaria wrote:

Fighter DPS in Reckless stance should come no where close to the DPS levels of Preds/Rogues/Sorcs/Summoners what so ever, all things being equal skill/gear wise.
Unless SoE is going to give all classes the ability to fill an entirely new role with the press of a single button... which we all know wont happen.

Yes, this is also part of my arguement of why Recklessness is a bad idea.

Its really not needed. Just fix the other issues and see where we are.

ElectricPotato · 06-26-2012, 03:28 PM

One stance for everybody? Probably not a fun way to go... There's not enough development resources to tune the "non-tank" tank stance for each archetype, or even each class? ((Some fighters are already at a very "pointy" place, how will a coverall stance close the gap?))

Skill removal on brawler combo stance? We get the same level of mastery in reckless stance as we had in the combo stance?

Anastasie · 06-26-2012, 03:37 PM

Maybe if they make the fighters as squishy as a mage while they have "Recklessness" stance on, it may be a bit more balanced. If they have tank survivability and can compete with wiz/lock/assn, then that would be way overpowered.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 04:06 PM

Letsee..

Fighter AE block up every other AE. -Check

Fighter Death prevents. -Check

Fighter Stoneskins and damage reductions. -Check

Fighter greater HP buffs. - Check

Yeah, as squishy as a dps class, sure...

Talathion · 06-26-2012, 04:09 PM

Fighters will take 50% more Damage.

They are effectively Wizards with the stance on.

Boethius_Permafrost · 06-26-2012, 04:39 PM

Before even getting to test, I think it likely will needs some changes:

Instead of -30 hate gain, make it prevent effects which increase hate gain and hate position changes. Just make recklessness nullify all the fighter tools for gaining agro, and nothing more. A fighter could be sitting at +100 - 30 = 70 hate gain, or at 0 - 30 = free -30 hate gain. This way allows reckless tanking and it gives a free large deagro. Special abilities to reduce agro should be restricted to dedicated dps classes.

Instead of increase all damage received, make it increase damage received from weapon attacks. The whole point is to have a raid dps option, but doing dps in a raid means taking a lot of damage from ae's. If the idea is to penalize the fighter for taking agro in recklessness, then only increase damage that occurs when you are the direct target.

edit: Also the damage penalty should not apply to intercede damage. That is a raid tool for non-tanking fighters, so don't break it with the recklessness implementation details.

Jeepned2 · 06-26-2012, 04:40 PM

Piestro wrote:

Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!

I don't care either way. I have tanks, I have mages, I have scouts. But what you just did is make a bunch of classes easily replaceable in raids. When a plate tank can go from basically a plate tank, to a wizard, back to a plate tank with an easy click of thier stance button why wouldn't I take a whole raid of these people instead of wizards, warlocks, assassins, rangers, necromancers, and conjurors? Might need to add Swashies to the list. Man, make a group of SK's with and Illusionist, and a healer and watch out. You may now have to go back and change the scripting of the mobs.

I learned a long time ago that it is useless to bring concerns up to Sony. Once you "set a path" the concerns of the player base is ignored and off you go. Write down my concerns.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... Sorry out of useless scraps of paper.

Talathion · 06-26-2012, 04:42 PM

Jeepned2 wrote:

Piestro wrote:
Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are.
Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers!
I don't care either way. I have tanks, I have mages, I have scouts. But what you just did is make a bunch of classes easily replaceable in raids. When a plate tank can go from basically a plate tank, to a wizard, back to a plate tank with an easy click of thier stance button why wouldn't I take a whole raid of these people instead of wizards, warlocks, assassins, rangers, necromancers, and conjurors? Might need to add Swashies to the list. Man, make a group of SK's with and Illusionist, and a healer and watch out. You may now have to go back and change the scripting of the mobs.
I learned a long time ago that it is useless to bring concerns up to Sony. Once you "set a path" the concerns of the player base is ignored and off you go. Write down my concerns.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... Sorry out of useless craps of paper.

DID YOU READ THE STANCE...

When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 04:44 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.

Do you read your own abilities?

Perfect Counter

Cancel Stance

Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck

Continue tanking

Jeepned2 · 06-26-2012, 04:46 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking

What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Talathion · 06-26-2012, 04:50 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking

I don't use Perfect Counter, I use Partisan Cleave.

Sorry.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 04:51 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:
Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking
I don't use Perfect Counter, I use partisan cleave.

Certainly explains some things... but you don'thave a death save either?

Talathion · 06-26-2012, 04:52 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
Atan@Unrest wrote:
Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking
I don't use Perfect Counter, I use partisan cleave.
Certainly explains some things... but you don'thave a death save either?

Your a Guardian, I'm a berserker, Partisan Cleave on a berserker is increased by 60% base damage/hits for 170k In Raids, and Also increases my damage/damage reduction significantly.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 04:55 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Your a Guardian, I'm a berserker, Partisan Cleave on a berserker is increased by 60% base damage/hits for 170k In Raids, and Also increases my damage/damage reduction significantly.

Yes, and I've seen a zerker hit 4mil on pefect counter... If your concerned with not dieing to canceling this buff, you can easily find ways around it.

kalaria · 06-26-2012, 04:57 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:
Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking
I don't use Perfect Counter, I use Partisan Cleave.
Sorry.

EVERY tank has a ton of stone skins/death prevents/damage reduction options.And guess what..... a tank isnt raiding solo, there are these crazy classes called healers that can top a tank off near instantly, and some of them even have crazing things called death prevents, stone skins, damage reductions they can put on tanks too. /gasp gasp!!!

Talathion · 06-26-2012, 04:58 PM

kalaria wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
Atan@Unrest wrote:
Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking
I don't use Perfect Counter, I use Partisan Cleave.
Sorry.
EVERY tank has a ton of stone skins/death prevents/damage reduction options.And guess what..... a tank isnt raiding solo, there are these crazy classes called healers that can top a tank off near instantly, and some of them even have crazing things called death prevents, stone skins, damage reductions they can put on tanks too. /gasp gasp!!!

No, only Brawlers/Guardians have a ton of stoneskins and death prevents.

Learn your classes before calling them out.

kalaria · 06-26-2012, 05:00 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Learn your classes before calling them out.

Yes.. YOU really do need to do that.

Yimway · 06-26-2012, 05:00 PM

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

EVERY tank has a ton of stone skins/death prevents/damage reduction options.And guess what..... a tank isnt raiding solo, there are these crazy classes called healers that can top a tank off near instantly, and some of them even have crazing things called death prevents, stone skins, damage reductions they can put on tanks too. /gasp gasp!!!
No, only Brawlers/Guardians have a ton of stoneskins and death prevents.
Learn your classes before calling them out.

No Tala, we all have enoughto get around swaping out of this stance mid fight. Learn your own class sir.

Koleg · 06-26-2012, 05:35 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
DID YOU READ THE STANCE...
When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.
Do you read your own abilities?
Perfect Counter
Cancel Stance
Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck
Continue tanking

He is only concerned that his Zerker will no longer be usless and only cares about how much more he gets and brawlers lose. It's quite obvious.

Hate Gain -30% when abilities have positions is a joke. Adds +50% Potencey and Then Doubles the casters Potencey? What will that make a raid geared toon sit at ... 500% Potency?!? No wonder all the Heal modifications had the Potency removed.

If a fighter can figure out how to avoid aggro they will turn into the #1 DPS source of DPS easily... no?

06-26-2012, 01:41 PM	#31
Koleg Server: Unrest_old Lord Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 713	Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage". How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS?? We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother? We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues. Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management?

06-26-2012, 01:55 PM	#32
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! My testing on the test server will be as much speculation as my revieing the changes now. I'm not going to be able to replicate 'live scenarios' that are meaningful on test server, so forgive me if I don't get too excited about it. However, conceptually, parts of this update are just a bad idea to start with, and I don't need to run scenarios on test to identify things that are conceptually wrong. __________________

06-26-2012, 02:03 PM	#33
Twyxx Guardian Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: CA Posts: 244	Koleg@Unrest_old wrote: Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage". How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS?? We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother? We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues. Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management? I think your T1's are doing it wrong. __________________

06-26-2012, 02:06 PM	#34
Koleg Server: Unrest_old Lord Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 713	Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! For the love of God would someome please see some commonsence in this update Bruiser-- Bodyguard no longer makes the bruiser immune to Strikethrough. <-- Remove the Daze effect already, how much more of this is going to be shoved around before someone actually understand the effect of Daze in a DPS-Aggro'centric environment when you block the ability to melee. Now your forcing the Bruisers to push themeselves into a losing aggro situation when it actually means something due to the strikethru removal.

06-26-2012, 02:09 PM	#35
Koleg Server: Unrest_old Lord Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 713	Twyxx wrote: Koleg@Unrest_old wrote: Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage". How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS?? We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother? We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues. Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management? I think your T1's are doing it wrong. That might be true .. but how close you we all want that DPS line to be, becasue this is certainly going to close that gap and in the end why bother with any class than isn't wearing at least chain armor.

06-26-2012, 02:15 PM	#36
Rhita Server: Unrest Guild: Shoukin Rank: Yakuin Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 144	Koleg@Unrest_old wrote: Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! For the love of God would someome please see some commonsence in this update Bruiser-- Bodyguard no longer makes the bruiser immune to Strikethrough. <-- Remove the Daze effect already, how much more of this is going to be shoved around before someone actually understand the effect of Daze in a DPS-Aggro'centric environment when you block the ability to melee. Now your forcing the Bruisers to push themeselves into a losing aggro situation when it actually means something due to the strikethru removal. Theres a daze effect on Bodyguard? __________________

06-26-2012, 02:28 PM	#37
Koleg Server: Unrest_old Lord Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 713	Rhita@Unrest wrote: Koleg@Unrest_old wrote: Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! For the love of God would someome please see some commonsence in this update Bruiser-- Bodyguard no longer makes the bruiser immune to Strikethrough. <-- Remove the Daze effect already, how much more of this is going to be shoved around before someone actually understand the effect of Daze in a DPS-Aggro'centric environment when you block the ability to melee. Now your forcing the Bruisers to push themeselves into a losing aggro situation when it actually means something due to the strikethru removal. Theres a daze effect on Bodyguard? Oh Fudger!!! I read that in a blind rage as something else.... But, while we're on the topic ... please remove the Daze from that other ability too

06-26-2012, 02:34 PM	#38
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	I hope being reckless has its own melee animations!

06-26-2012, 02:43 PM	#39
Twyxx Guardian Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: CA Posts: 244	Koleg@Unrest_old wrote: Twyxx wrote: Koleg@Unrest_old wrote: Currently in todays game environment we already know that Monk, Zerkers and SK's are doing T1.5 DPS, often showing in raids in the or near the top 5. Guardians, Pally's and Brawlers are not far behind and are very often higher than the T2 utility/DPS on the parse. Recklessness will only make those numbers higher and by the announcment "greatly increases outgoing damage". How?? is this not suppose to make the T2 utility/DPS and the T1 DPS feel HORRIBLE about the tasks which they once had the oportunity to fill?? Why would any raid use a Sorcerer, specifically the weaker wizards, when they can easily replace those low survivabile mages with plate wearing AE classes that can switch mid-fight between MT-OT-DPS?? We already know that the poor implementation of the assumed OP Beastlords have put several other classes on the sidelines. Rangers have all but been replaced in 99% of the situations. Wizzards, Assassins and Warlocks are equally replaced with Beastlords due to the DPS potentional. NOW, Monks SK , Zerkers and Pallys will push the remaining T1 DPS out of the game save for the Beastlords. I'd have to ask Why? Why bother playing a class that is tagged as a T1 DPS class which cannot compete with the raw DPS potential with 10x the survivibility?? why, bother? We won't even begin to talk yet about the actual fighter arch-type issues. Why wouldn't SOE Dev's simply fixed the actual fighter issue which was Snap Aggro management? I think your T1's are doing it wrong. That might be true .. but how close you we all want that DPS line to be, becasue this is certainly going to close that gap and in the end why bother with any class than isn't wearing at least chain armor. All depends on what the recklessness buff actually turns out to be. Not sure if anyone has gotten on to test yet to see it. If it's significant there will be fights where sk's are up there for sure, monks would be a real asset and people might dust off their zerkers. Unless they make them as "sky is falling" game-breaking as you're worried about I don't see it as an issue. Most of the harder fights right now you need 3-4 tanks for. Would be nice to have them all be a valuable contributer 100% of the time. I don't think good t1's are going to have anything to worry about with this. Swashes and bad t1's should be concerned. But they should already be concerned. __________________

06-26-2012, 02:44 PM	#40
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Twyxx wrote: All depends on what the recklessness buff actually turns out to be. Not sure if anyone has gotten on to test yet to see it. If it's significant there will be fights where sk's are up there for sure, monks would be a real asset and people might dust off their zerkers. I'm concerned with the notion that a class gets to be a 'dps role' and not have to worry about agro. Which is certainly what Recklessness sounds like to me... __________________

06-26-2012, 03:07 PM	#41
kalaria Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 121	Fighter DPS in Reckless stance should come no where close to the DPS levels of Preds/Rogues/Sorcs/Summoners what so ever, all things being equal skill/gear wise. Unless SoE is going to give all classes the ability to fill an entirely new role with the press of a single button... which we all know wont happen.

06-26-2012, 03:24 PM	#42
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	kalaria wrote: Fighter DPS in Reckless stance should come no where close to the DPS levels of Preds/Rogues/Sorcs/Summoners what so ever, all things being equal skill/gear wise. Unless SoE is going to give all classes the ability to fill an entirely new role with the press of a single button... which we all know wont happen. Yes, this is also part of my arguement of why Recklessness is a bad idea. Its really not needed. Just fix the other issues and see where we are. __________________

06-26-2012, 03:28 PM	#43
ElectricPotato Lord Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 33	One stance for everybody? Probably not a fun way to go... There's not enough development resources to tune the "non-tank" tank stance for each archetype, or even each class? ((Some fighters are already at a very "pointy" place, how will a coverall stance close the gap?)) Skill removal on brawler combo stance? We get the same level of mastery in reckless stance as we had in the combo stance?

06-26-2012, 03:37 PM	#44
Anastasie Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 850	Maybe if they make the fighters as squishy as a mage while they have "Recklessness" stance on, it may be a bit more balanced. If they have tank survivability and can compete with wiz/lock/assn, then that would be way overpowered.

06-26-2012, 04:06 PM	#45
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Letsee.. Fighter AE block up every other AE. -Check Fighter Death prevents. -Check Fighter Stoneskins and damage reductions. -Check Fighter greater HP buffs. - Check Yeah, as squishy as a dps class, sure... __________________

06-26-2012, 04:09 PM	#46
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Fighters will take 50% more Damage. They are effectively Wizards with the stance on.

06-26-2012, 04:39 PM	#47
Boethius_Permafrost Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 335	Before even getting to test, I think it likely will needs some changes: Instead of -30 hate gain, make it prevent effects which increase hate gain and hate position changes. Just make recklessness nullify all the fighter tools for gaining agro, and nothing more. A fighter could be sitting at +100 - 30 = 70 hate gain, or at 0 - 30 = free -30 hate gain. This way allows reckless tanking and it gives a free large deagro. Special abilities to reduce agro should be restricted to dedicated dps classes. Instead of increase all damage received, make it increase damage received from weapon attacks. The whole point is to have a raid dps option, but doing dps in a raid means taking a lot of damage from ae's. If the idea is to penalize the fighter for taking agro in recklessness, then only increase damage that occurs when you are the direct target. edit: Also the damage penalty should not apply to intercede damage. That is a raid tool for non-tanking fighters, so don't break it with the recklessness implementation details.

06-26-2012, 04:40 PM	#48
Jeepned2 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 595	Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! I don't care either way. I have tanks, I have mages, I have scouts. But what you just did is make a bunch of classes easily replaceable in raids. When a plate tank can go from basically a plate tank, to a wizard, back to a plate tank with an easy click of thier stance button why wouldn't I take a whole raid of these people instead of wizards, warlocks, assassins, rangers, necromancers, and conjurors? Might need to add Swashies to the list. Man, make a group of SK's with and Illusionist, and a healer and watch out. You may now have to go back and change the scripting of the mobs. I learned a long time ago that it is useless to bring concerns up to Sony. Once you "set a path" the concerns of the player base is ignored and off you go. Write down my concerns.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... Sorry out of useless scraps of paper.

06-26-2012, 04:42 PM	#49
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Jeepned2 wrote: Piestro wrote: Obviously this is a change that we knew people would be passionate about. Of course until people see the actual changes any evaluation of their impact is premature. The best way to move forward is to write down your concerns, and then formulate a test plan based on those concerns. That will give you the best possible start to actually testing the changes, and seeing what their actual impacts are. Looking forward to seeing a lot of you on the Test servers! I don't care either way. I have tanks, I have mages, I have scouts. But what you just did is make a bunch of classes easily replaceable in raids. When a plate tank can go from basically a plate tank, to a wizard, back to a plate tank with an easy click of thier stance button why wouldn't I take a whole raid of these people instead of wizards, warlocks, assassins, rangers, necromancers, and conjurors? Might need to add Swashies to the list. Man, make a group of SK's with and Illusionist, and a healer and watch out. You may now have to go back and change the scripting of the mobs. I learned a long time ago that it is useless to bring concerns up to Sony. Once you "set a path" the concerns of the player base is ignored and off you go. Write down my concerns.... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH... Sorry out of useless craps of paper. DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank.

06-26-2012, 04:44 PM	#50
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking __________________

06-26-2012, 04:46 PM	#51
Jeepned2 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 595	Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

06-26-2012, 04:50 PM	#52
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking I don't use Perfect Counter, I use Partisan Cleave. Sorry.

06-26-2012, 04:51 PM	#53
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking I don't use Perfect Counter, I use partisan cleave. Certainly explains some things... but you don'thave a death save either? __________________

06-26-2012, 04:52 PM	#54
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking I don't use Perfect Counter, I use partisan cleave. Certainly explains some things... but you don'thave a death save either? Your a Guardian, I'm a berserker, Partisan Cleave on a berserker is increased by 60% base damage/hits for 170k In Raids, and Also increases my damage/damage reduction significantly.

06-26-2012, 04:55 PM	#55
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Your a Guardian, I'm a berserker, Partisan Cleave on a berserker is increased by 60% base damage/hits for 170k In Raids, and Also increases my damage/damage reduction significantly. Yes, and I've seen a zerker hit 4mil on pefect counter... If your concerned with not dieing to canceling this buff, you can easily find ways around it. __________________

06-26-2012, 04:57 PM	#56
kalaria Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 121	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking I don't use Perfect Counter, I use Partisan Cleave. Sorry. EVERY tank has a ton of stone skins/death prevents/damage reduction options.And guess what..... a tank isnt raiding solo, there are these crazy classes called healers that can top a tank off near instantly, and some of them even have crazing things called death prevents, stone skins, damage reductions they can put on tanks too. /gasp gasp!!!

06-26-2012, 04:58 PM	#57
Talathion Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Cladire Mortii Rank: Initiate/Slave Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,780	kalaria wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking I don't use Perfect Counter, I use Partisan Cleave. Sorry. EVERY tank has a ton of stone skins/death prevents/damage reduction options.And guess what..... a tank isnt raiding solo, there are these crazy classes called healers that can top a tank off near instantly, and some of them even have crazing things called death prevents, stone skins, damage reductions they can put on tanks too. /gasp gasp!!! No, only Brawlers/Guardians have a ton of stoneskins and death prevents. Learn your classes before calling them out.

06-26-2012, 05:00 PM	#58
kalaria Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 121	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: Learn your classes before calling them out. Yes.. YOU really do need to do that.

06-26-2012, 05:00 PM	#59
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: EVERY tank has a ton of stone skins/death prevents/damage reduction options.And guess what..... a tank isnt raiding solo, there are these crazy classes called healers that can top a tank off near instantly, and some of them even have crazing things called death prevents, stone skins, damage reductions they can put on tanks too. /gasp gasp!!! No, only Brawlers/Guardians have a ton of stoneskins and death prevents. Learn your classes before calling them out. No Tala, we all have enoughto get around swaping out of this stance mid fight. Learn your own class sir. __________________

06-26-2012, 05:35 PM	#60
Koleg Server: Unrest_old Lord Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 713	Atan@Unrest wrote: Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote: DID YOU READ THE STANCE... When you leave Reckless, it brings your HEALTH down to 1%, you can't just leave it and Tank. Do you read your own abilities? Perfect Counter Cancel Stance Tinkered Life Stone and/or Death Prevent and/or healers that don't suck Continue tanking He is only concerned that his Zerker will no longer be usless and only cares about how much more he gets and brawlers lose. It's quite obvious. Hate Gain -30% when abilities have positions is a joke. Adds +50% Potencey and Then Doubles the casters Potencey? What will that make a raid geared toon sit at ... 500% Potency?!? No wonder all the Heal modifications had the Potency removed. If a fighter can figure out how to avoid aggro they will turn into the #1 DPS source of DPS easily... no?