Dungeon Maker: Play as Self Feedback Thread

[Maevianiu]

Hello!

We just added playing as your character in Dungeon Maker, but it is with a twist! Dungeon Maker dungeons are now "Level Agnostic" as in your level doesn't matter much when in there. Players who are any level can group with players of any other level and fight side by side against the same monsters!

How does this work? Essentially you are fighting the monsters as if they are your level for each combat calculation. Are you a level 30 healing a level 92 player? Then the heal applies as if you were level 92 but that same heal will apply to a level 30 as if you were your normal level 30 self. 

The con of monsters does matter, and monsters that con yellow, orange or red will be more difficult for players of all levels while grey, green and blue monsters will be less difficult for players of all levels.

This is a big change, and we need your help to get it tuned in! If you guys could make some dungeons and try playing them as your characters of various levels and maybe some groups with players of different levels that would be very helpful! 

When posting feedback please format it something like this:

Maevianiu from Test Server level 84 monk, 135AA Dungeon: Devland by Gninja

Overall: Was pretty easy, this character handles large pulls very well and this dungeon fit the bill for that.

Encounter 1: A single white con no buffs, very easy

Encounter 2: Three white cons, difficult but doable had to use a cooldown to complete.

Encounter 3: Very difficult, a very large group of white cons used all cooldowns but completed.

Encounter 4: Moderate, a single very buffed yellow con.

Encounter 5: Very difficult, and took me two tries to break. It had 3 very buffed yellow cons.

[Cyliena]

This is brutal on a level 30 with 44 AA. Yes, I know that's not formatted the way you requested; I'm still in the middle of my 2-room dungeon run, but wanted to get that off my chest.

edit: feedback with a combat log is a few replies down >>here<<

[Maevianiu]

Cyliena wrote:

This is brutal on a level 30 with 44 AA. Yes, I know that's not formatted the way you requested; I'm still in the middle of my 2-room dungeon run, but wanted to get that off my chest.

I'll edit this in a bit with real feedback.

On that character. Would you say that you do not do enough damage or that the monsters hit you too hard?

[Cloudrat]

Cloudrat level 90 necro 285aa   Dungeon High Adventure by Elvendor

Encounter  1   3 even conned mobs took forever to kill one ended up with broken encounter  got message my pet interfered      and broke encounter

Encounter 2 pet broke enounter  3 mobs  I died trying to escape out of the dungeon ended up outside with revive screen even though I wasnt dead had to go back in dungeon to die again and revive to get rid of the revive window

[Cyliena]

Maevianiu wrote:

Cyliena wrote:

This is brutal on a level 30 with 44 AA. Yes, I know that's not formatted the way you requested; I'm still in the middle of my 2-room dungeon run, but wanted to get that off my chest.

I'll edit this in a bit with real feedback.

On that character. Would you say that you do not do enough damage or that the monsters hit you too hard?

Monsters hit too hard. My damage is.. astounding (but their health drops fine comparitive to what I'd normally do fighting a real level 30 mob) but they hit so hard for my health.

edit: Real brief at this point, I have a combat log of my first death. Hopefully it's not too long to c/p in.

Char: Siada (30 Shadowknight, 44 AA spent in STR/WIS Crusader lines, 2.7k health, 1.7k mitigation) on TestDungeon: Infusion of NatureFight: Two white con ^ mobs with arcane power, tier increaser and vigor effects (normally a challenge but not deadly for an avatar in DM)Result: Deadly. I managed to defeat one, barely. I was at 6% health at the end of the first fight and that was only due to some of my SK lifetaps plus ward.

(1339704868)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:28 2012] You start fighting.(1339704868)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:28 2012] YOUR Harm Touch hits a watcher of nature for 112872 disease damage.(1339704868)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:28 2012] A watcher of nature is struck with a harmful touch.(1339704868)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:28 2012] A watcher of nature begins a fiery arcane spell.(1339704868)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:28 2012] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!(1339704868)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:28 2012] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!(1339704869)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:29 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.(1339704869)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:29 2012] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!(1339704869)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:29 2012] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] YOUR Aura of Leadership absorbs 102 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] a watcher of nature's Solar Flare hits YOU for 179 heat damage.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] Siada blasts you with a fiery pulse!(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 325 crushing damage.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] a watcher of nature's Magical Bolt hits YOU for 172 magic damage.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!(1339704870)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:30 2012] Your target is too far away!  Move closer!(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 320 crushing damage.(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] YOUR Malice hits a watcher of nature for 22646 disease damage.(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.(1339704871)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:31 2012] YOU hit a watcher of nature for 83276 slashing damage.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper hits a watcher of nature for 4792 disease damage.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper III increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 399 threat.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] A watcher of nature is antagonized by the insidious whispers in its ear.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 295 crushing damage.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704872)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:32 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704873)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:33 2012] YOUR Painbringer hits a watcher of nature for 14258 slashing damage.(1339704873)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:33 2012] A watcher of nature looks to be struck with a very painful blow.(1339704873)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:33 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] YOUR Soulrend hits a watcher of nature for 7788 piercing damage.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] A watcher of nature is dazed as part of their soul is knocked from them.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] YOUR Aura of Leadership regenerates 34 points of absorption.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] YOUR Aura of Leadership absorbs 34 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] a watcher of nature's Assault hits YOU for 68 crushing damage.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704874)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:34 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper III increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 77 threat.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper hits a watcher of nature for 2516 disease damage.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 239 crushing damage.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] YOUR Hateful Slam hits a watcher of nature for 6350 disease damage.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] A watcher of nature is stunned!(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] YOUR Hateful Slam II increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 291 threat.(1339704875)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:35 2012] A watcher of nature is infuriated as they are struck with a decrepit slam.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] YOUR Cleave Flesh hits a watcher of nature for 22526 disease damage.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] A watcher of nature doubles over in pain as sorrow overwhelms them.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 276 crushing damage.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704876)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:36 2012] YOUR Painbringer hits a watcher of nature for 2396 disease damage.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] YOUR Shadow Coil hits a watcher of nature for 10065 disease damage.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] A watcher of nature is wrapped in a shadow coil.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 276 crushing damage.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] A watcher of nature is no longer stunned.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 256 crushing damage.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] YOUR Lambent Rejuvenation heals YOU for 26 hit points.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704877)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:37 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOU hit a watcher of nature for 94299 slashing damage.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Grim Strike hits a watcher of nature for 20489 disease damage.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] A watcher of nature is struck with an unholy weapon!(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Grim Strike heals YOU for 85 hit points.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper III increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 74 threat.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper hits a watcher of nature for 2516 disease damage.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Hateful Slam II increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 121 threat.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Devour Vitae hits a watcher of nature for 26959 disease damage.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] Shadows flow through A watcher of nature's blood.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] YOUR Devour Vitae heals YOU for 129 hit points.(1339704878)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:38 2012] Shadows flow through your blood.(1339704879)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:39 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.(1339704879)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:39 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU with Overpower, but YOU block.(1339704879)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:39 2012] YOUR Painbringer hits a watcher of nature for 2396 disease damage.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 250 crushing damage.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] YOUR Lambent Rejuvenation heals YOU for 26 hit points.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] YOUR Swift Attack hits a watcher of nature for 26600 slashing damage.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] A watcher of nature begins a fiery arcane spell.(1339704880)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:40 2012] YOUR Aura of Leadership regenerates 34 points of absorption.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper III increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 71 threat.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Insidious Whisper hits a watcher of nature for 2276 disease damage.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] A watcher of nature calms their anger.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Aura of Leadership absorbs 34 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] a watcher of nature hits YOU for 200 crushing damage.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback hits a watcher of nature for 1797 disease damage.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Caress Feedback increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 38 threat.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] A watcher of nature writhes in agony.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Hateful Slam II increases YOUR hate with a watcher of nature by 121 threat.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] YOUR Shadow Coil hits a watcher of nature for 4673 disease damage.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] a watcher of nature was interrupted!(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] The coil unwinds from a watcher of nature.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] A watcher of nature calms themselves.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] You stop fighting.(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] You have killed a watcher of nature in Infusion of Nature (425.88, 96.10, -358.76).(1339704881)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:41 2012] You earned 420 experience to be collected upon completion.(1339704882)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:42 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU, but YOU block.(1339704883)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:43 2012] a watcher of nature tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1339704884)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:44 2012] YOUR Lambent Rejuvenation heals YOU for 26 hit points.(1339704884)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:44 2012] You start fighting.(1339704884)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:44 2012] YOU hit a watcher of nature for 90225 slashing damage.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] a watcher of nature's Ruin hits YOU for 71 slashing damage.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] a watcher of nature's Magical Bolt hits YOU for 176 magic damage.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] You stop fighting.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] Your disciplined Rujarkian destrier departs.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] a watcher of nature has killed you.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] One of your limbs becomes ruined.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] Your limb straightens itself out.(1339704885)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:45 2012] This encounter will no longer give encounter rewards.(1339704886)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:46 2012] YOUR Aura of Leadership regenerates 34 points of absorption.(1339704891)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:51 2012] Reviving in Lair of Scale 4 at Entrance.(1339704891)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:51 2012] You regain consciousness!(1339704891)[Thu Jun 14 16:14:51 2012] YOU are drained by Revived Sickness of 1 1420 focus of power.

[Cyliena]

Char: Siada (Level 30 SK, 44 AA, 2.7k health, 1.7k mitigation) on TestDungeon: The Testers' Arena (purposefully just made this one for testing this out)General Feedback: Getting your armor damaged, rez effects and exp debt really bites compared to avatar dungeon runs. I realize this may be unavoidable, but it does dissuade me from wanting to run as myself.

First room: Fought four rats, each a single pull, that were even con with no effect objects on them. All dropped me about 20-30% health, leaving minimal downtime in-between. The fifth rat only had a tier increaser effect object on it, it killed me first attempt. Harm touched it pulling the second attempt and succeeded with 11% health lost.

Second room: Fought a single gnoll with only a battle prowess (+dps/potency) effect. He took me down to 54% health. Fought a single gnoll with a vigor (+health) effect. He took me down to 73% health.

Third room: Fought a single gnoll with an arcane power (damage proc) effect. Now, a note about this effect: the tooltip states that it can inflict 1k-1.5k damage, and I have 2.7k total health. Thankfully it hasn't procced on me yet... (edit: a different fight procced magical bolt and it hit for 151, so must just be a tooltip error?). Anyways, it took me to 63% health. Fought two gnolls grouped together with no effects on them. They dropped me to 66% health.

Fourth room: Fought two skeletons with arcane power effect. They dropped me to 30% health after two lifetaps. Fought three skeletons with arcane power effect. I died on the first attempt (got the one I was fighting down to about 5% health). Died on the second attempt due to one of the skeletons taunting me off the one I harm touched (took me a few hits to switch back). Died a third time as well (also used harm touch again and did not get taunted this time), this is where I admit defeat!

Overall feedback: Too much downtime, rez effects/damaged armor/xp debt is a downer, mobs hit too hard, some effect objects might be making mobs overpowered.

Going to be trying with my level 91 Swashbuckler on Test Copy later as well. Right now testing the same dungeon as above with an avatar, because this "level agnostic" change is definitely affecting their viability.

Avatar: Drolvarg Scourgeknight (fighter)Dungeon: The Testers' Arena on Test

First room: Single pull mobs with no effects took me down to 50-60% health. Normally with an avatar these would be no challenge. One of my pulls I accidentally got the one tier increased mob as well and, while I managed to kill the standard con mob, the tier increased one killed me immediately afterward. Pulled the tier increased mob after reviving and died the first attempt (got it to about 10% health remaining). Pulled it a second time and just realized that I'm getting rez effects and xp debt on an avatar. Needless to say, death #2, I realized that too late. Third attempt, finally killed it.

Second room: Okay, something is messed up with avatar aggro. I'm aggroing mobs from much further away than I was on my player character. That said, I took down the single mob with a battle prowess effect okay, but the lesser vigor one further in also aggroed and chunked me down to death shortly afterward. The problem I'm seeing now is that avatars will be lucky if they're viable fighting against anything other than one mob at a time, which is a far cry from how they currently are.

I'm going to stop there on the avatar before I get frustrated at this. Hopping over to Copy now.

[Cyliena]

If you "play as self" in a group, and your group member chooses to join you, they do not get zoned into the dungeon. My husband had to go to the DM screen and manually join me from there.

[Kuulei]

Cyliena wrote:

If you "play as self" in a group, and your group member chooses to join you, they do not get zoned into the dungeon. My husband had to go to the DM screen and manually join me from there.

Same here Cy, we ohoh and kuulei tried it too, if playing as yourself, it won't zone the group in.   Ohoh would get the window to join, select yes, and nothing would happen.

However, if you select avatars, it will still do as before and zone the group in.

[Mermut]

Jamisia:  Warden, level 21 with 38 AA, mastercrafted and quested gear (1.1k health, 751 mit)

test server, dungeon Ack!! (crushbone map)

Single pull on the first mob, a pile of bones.Destroyed me every time. From the combat logs, the smallest hit it got on me was 120 pts, the largest was 189. (auto attack hits) The art it used (One Hundred Hand Punch) hit me 4 times for between 14 and 20 hps each hit.From the logs it seems the auto-attack damage is too high.

I went out and fought a even arrow lvl 21 mob and it's auto attacks were hitting me for 35 to 48 pts of damage.  That indicates that the mobs in the dungeons are hitting between 3 and 4 times harder then other mobs at the same 'level', at least on my level 21 toon.

editted for typos

[Finora]

This is as a level 45 warden/144aa mostly in mastercrafted.

First in the dungeon Crazy Cat Lady.

Most single monsters didn't pose 'too' much of a problem but certain classes could be a pain unless I dispelled them (paladins & sks specifically).

Groups of 2 were pretty difficult, most mobs in the dungeon come in at least groups of 2.

3+ were sometimes next to impossible (there was a particular 2 orc & rat bunch that gave me quite a bit of trouble).

It took me 5 deaths to get through this dungeon playing as myself.

*forgot to mention most of the mobs were even con no arrow*

As several of the common avatars I attempted to run through the same dungeon. It didn't happen. I couldn't get past the first room with any of the avatars I tried (most of the old functionality basic ones & a loaminess keeper, I don't have a wide selection of them on test).

Then I made a wee little dungeon of my own (Testing stuff under Lair of Scale) . If I made one identical to it on live it would be a very easy solo dungeon for some quick marks.  I did use a couple of buffs  to damage & hp on a couple of the monsters & the boss got a buff.

On test playing as my character (once again the level 45 warden), it was sometimes pretty difficult if mobs were in twos. I placed things so I would not get 3s except on the boss. 

I placed 2 other monsters near the boss & gave her a couple of buffs (nothing too terrible really, 2 of the basic buffs, I'd tell you what except the game crashed & I can't get back in atm).

I ended up dying once before killing the boss.

Once again I went back to the same dungeon with the various old style basic avatars, they were complete failures if there was more than one mob.

That's my current observations about the fights. I'll play around with it a bit more in a bit.

Other observations: You now accrue debt when you are playing as an avatar & have rez sickness. That's a bit annoying, especially given their being very underpowered in the current play environment.

Forgot to mention that my damage output seems fine on both. Its the incoming damage on lower level characters & dungeon avatars that seems overwhelming.

[Kuulei]

What was once a solo run on an avatar, is now a little difficult with 2 people. We still had a couple deaths, doing what I would consider a dungeon that was, before changes, a solo instance.

As an avatar, you're level 50.  The mobs are level 92-96 and still showing as even or yellow cons.  Now your avatar is hitting as if they were 92 and the mobs are fighting back as if you're 50 but they have the hitpoints of a 92 (reason your spell and combat arts are hitting so hard.

It seems like the mobs accuracy is a bit high.  They are definitely not missing the lower-leveled characters at all.  Each hit is a good 9-12% of my hitpoints on my 44 warden and I am hard-pressed to keep heals up with the damage they are hitting me with.  Not so much how hard, but how often.

(1339722742)[Thu Jun 14 19:12:22 2012] Logging to 'logs/Test/eq2log_Kuula.txt' is now *ON*(1339722817)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:37 2012] You say, "Log is on, rez sickness is gone, fully buffed 44 warden with 4.366 hitpoints, test:"(1339722822)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:42 2012] Tiny Tim's fists crackle with the power of lightning.(1339722822)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:42 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 551 crushing damage.(1339722822)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:42 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 21 magic damage.(1339722822)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:42 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1339722823)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:43 2012] You start fighting.(1339722823)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:43 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 13910 crushing damage.(1339722823)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:43 2012] YOUR Natural Boon heals YOU for 204 hit points.(1339722824)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:44 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 490 crushing damage.(1339722824)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:44 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 22 magic damage.(1339722824)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:44 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1339722825)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:45 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 542 crushing damage.(1339722825)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:45 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 21 magic damage.(1339722825)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:45 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1339722826)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:46 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 475 crushing damage.(1339722826)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:46 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 18 magic damage.(1339722826)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:46 2012] You were interrupted!(1339722826)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:46 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] You infuse Kuula with nature's embrace!(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 534 hit points.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] You feel your health replenish!(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] Tiny Tim's Waking Dragon hits YOU for 186 crushing damage.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 26 magic damage.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] You are struck by the pouncing tiger.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 12083 crushing damage.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] YOUR Gleaming Strike increases YOUR hate with Tiny Tim by 518 threat.(133972282[Thu Jun 14 19:13:48 2012] YOUR Gleaming Strike hits Tiny Tim for 27609 magic damage.(1339722829)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:49 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 677 crushing damage.(1339722829)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:49 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 16 magic damage.(1339722829)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:49 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1339722829)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:49 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 59 hit points.(1339722830)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:50 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 63 hit points.(1339722830)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:50 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 648 crushing damage.(1339722830)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:50 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 18 magic damage.(1339722830)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:50 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1339722831)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:51 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 61 hit points.(1339722831)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:51 2012] Tiny Tim tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1339722832)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:52 2012] You feel the ancestors' blessing flow through you.(1339722832)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:52 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis critically heals YOU for 452 hit points.(1339722832)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:52 2012] Kuula's Photosynthesis flows through you.(1339722832)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:52 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 57 hit points.(1339722832)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:52 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 20092 crushing damage.(1339722833)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:53 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 651 crushing damage.(1339722833)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:53 2012] Tiny Tim's Jolting Strike hits YOU for 22 magic damage.(1339722833)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:53 2012] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1339722833)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:53 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 65 hit points.(1339722834)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:54 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis critically heals YOU for 370 hit points.(1339722834)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:54 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 677 crushing damage.(1339722834)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:54 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 59 hit points.(1339722835)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:55 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 669 crushing damage.(1339722836)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:56 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 59 hit points.(1339722836)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:56 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis critically heals YOU for 377 hit points.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 65 hit points.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] You draw upon restorative natural powers.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 298 hit points.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] Kuula focuses Sylvan Bloom upon you.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 577 crushing damage.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 4144 crushing damage.(1339722837)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:57 2012] YOUR Tiger Bite hits Tiny Tim for 15244 slashing damage.(133972283[Thu Jun 14 19:13:58 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 57 hit points.(133972283[Thu Jun 14 19:13:58 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 38 hit points.(133972283[Thu Jun 14 19:13:58 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 541 crushing damage.(133972283[Thu Jun 14 19:13:58 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis critically heals YOU for 400 hit points.(1339722839)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:59 2012] You draw together the four curative winds.(1339722839)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:59 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 309 hit points.(1339722839)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:59 2012] Your group feels almost completely refreshed!(1339722839)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:59 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 64 hit points.(1339722839)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:59 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722839)[Thu Jun 14 19:13:59 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 635 crushing damage.(1339722840)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:00 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 45 hit points.(1339722840)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:00 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722840)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:00 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis critically heals YOU for 388 hit points.(1339722841)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:01 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 680 crushing damage.(1339722841)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:01 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 44 hit points.(1339722841)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:01 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 40 hit points.(1339722842)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:02 2012] Tiny Tim tries to crush YOU, but misses.(1339722842)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:02 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722842)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:02 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 37 hit points.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis critically heals YOU for 406 hit points.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] The Photosynthesis dissipates.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] You feel the ancestors' blessing flow through you.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis heals YOU for 388 hit points.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] Kuula's Photosynthesis flows through you.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 42 hit points.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 39 hit points.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] You feel the effects of Sylvan Bloom fade away.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 19951 crushing damage.(1339722843)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:03 2012] YOUR Natural Boon heals YOU for 204 hit points.(1339722844)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:04 2012] You are mercilessly taunted by your enemy.(1339722844)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:04 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 699 crushing damage.(1339722844)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:04 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722845)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:05 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis heals YOU for 288 hit points.(1339722845)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:05 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 40 hit points.(1339722846)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:06 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 565 crushing damage.(1339722846)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:06 2012] You infuse Kuula with nature's embrace!(1339722846)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:06 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 525 hit points.(1339722846)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:06 2012] You feel your health replenish!(1339722847)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:07 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 616 crushing damage.(1339722847)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:07 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis heals YOU for 271 hit points.(1339722847)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:07 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 12083 crushing damage.(1339722847)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:07 2012] YOUR Natural Boon heals YOU for 204 hit points.(1339722847)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:07 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 65 hit points.(133972284[Thu Jun 14 19:14:08 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 65 hit points.(1339722849)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:09 2012] Tiny Tim's Waking Dragon hits YOU for 237 crushing damage.(1339722849)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:09 2012] You are struck by the pouncing tiger.(1339722849)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:09 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 559 crushing damage.(1339722849)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:09 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis heals YOU for 287 hit points.(1339722850)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:10 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 58 hit points.(1339722850)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:10 2012] You draw upon restorative natural powers.(1339722850)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:10 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 315 hit points.(1339722850)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:10 2012] Kuula focuses Sylvan Bloom upon you.(1339722851)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:11 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 663 crushing damage.(1339722851)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:11 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 56 hit points.(1339722851)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:11 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 34 hit points.(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis heals YOU for 303 hit points.(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 61 hit points.(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 437 crushing damage.(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] You draw together the four curative winds.(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 265 hit points.(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] Your group feels almost completely refreshed!(1339722852)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:12 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 35 hit points.(1339722853)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:13 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 59 hit points.(1339722853)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:13 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 4636 crushing damage.(1339722853)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:13 2012] YOU multi attack Tiny Tim for 20092 crushing damage.(1339722853)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:13 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 569 crushing damage.(1339722854)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:14 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 42 hit points.(1339722854)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:14 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722854)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:14 2012] YOUR Photosynthesis heals YOU for 304 hit points.(1339722854)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:14 2012] The Photosynthesis dissipates.(1339722854)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:14 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 58 hit points.(1339722855)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:15 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 470 crushing damage.(1339722855)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:15 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722855)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:15 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 35 hit points.(1339722855)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:15 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 63 hit points.(1339722856)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:16 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 42 hit points.(1339722856)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:16 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 41 hit points.(1339722856)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:16 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 425 crushing damage.(1339722856)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:16 2012] You lose consciousness!(1339722856)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:16 2012] You regain consciousness!(1339722856)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:16 2012] YOUR Nature's Embrace heals YOU for 64 hit points.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] YOUR Winds of Healing heals YOU for 44 hit points.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] YOUR Sylvan Bloom heals YOU for 35 hit points.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] You feel the effects of Sylvan Bloom fade away.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] YOU hit Tiny Tim for 15596 crushing damage.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] YOUR Gleaming Strike increases YOUR hate with Tiny Tim by 518 threat.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] YOUR Gleaming Strike hits Tiny Tim for 21778 magic damage.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] YOU multi attack Tiny Tim for 14682 crushing damage.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] Tiny Tim hits YOU for 594 crushing damage.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] You stop fighting.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] Your spell has been interrupted!(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] Your skin returns to normal.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] Tiny Tim has killed you.(1339722857)[Thu Jun 14 19:14:17 2012] This encounter will no longer give encounter rewards.

As you can see from my log, I pretty much spent most of the fight trying to heal myself.  The text in read shows how much dmg I took in 3 seconds, 1647 dmg, which is about 40% of my health? The mob is a even ^ in ack!! dungeon on test

[Cyliena]

Chars: Cyliena (90 Swashbuckler, 320 AA) and Uthetia (54 Coercer, 94AA) on Test CopyGear Setup: Cyliena's and Uthetia'sDungeon: The Test Copy Arena on Test Copy

We made this small dungeon that started off with single pull mobs with no effects (including a boss and elite), then it ramped up to mobs with effects and multiples in groups. Biggest group was 3 mobs. The final boss we threw in had 3 different effect objects on her. This dungeon is very weak compared to dungeons I normally create and have run from others on live, so it's really not representative of the difficulty you'd experience in most well-done dungeons, but does its job for testing.

First run notes (Cy + Uthetia + guardian merc):

• Coercers can charm DM mobs. Uthetia charmed an elite.
• Mercenaries can enter the dungeons, which I personally had no problem with but not sure it was intended.
• Uthetia's damage numbers were reading in the 20-40k ballpark, whereas mine on Cy was her normal damage output. It didn't seem to have any impact on the speed of the mob's death (as in, it didn't make it crazy fast), but as my combat log from Siada above shows, it's odd seeing a low level do that kind of damage.
• The guardian merc definitely took a beating on some of the harder fights.
• I tried mentoring Uthetia for a couple of fights during the run to see if anything happened, but my damage just seemed to get a bit lower. Mentoring/unmentoring had no effect on the mob cons.
• Elite and boss mobs, despite being levels 94 and 96, still conned white for some reason.
• Normally a third person in a dungeon will up the difficulty of a dungeon, but the merc seemed to cause this to not happen.
• XP rewarded was about 6.2k (Uthetia) and 6.5k (Cyliena).
• We had no deaths on this run.

Second run notes (Cy + Uthetia):

• Without the mercenary the fights definitely took longer.
• I switched on Cy's defensive stance and she was able to hold her own but, like my guardian merc, definitely took a beating on some of the harder fights.
• Whenever Uthetia got aggro, she got tore up like she was wearing paper towels.
• XP rewarded was about 8.3k (Uthetia) and 8.9k (Cyliena).
• We had no deaths on this run, though Uthetia was dangerously close a few times.

Third run notes (Uthetia):

• Single pulls were fine with a lot of downtime. (4-5 mins between each, though he admittedly had really low level food/drink for his level)
• Died on the first two mob group, even with mezzing and rooting one of the mobs.
• Pulled out his Shadowknight merc and finished the dungeon with that, eliminated the deaths and extensive downtime.
• XP rewarded was about 9.3k.

Third run notes (Cyliena):

• Single pulls were fine with some downtime (about 1 min max after each).
• Two mob groups (no effect objects) were okay, extended downtime to 1.5 mins max after each.
• A three mob group (no effect objects) was somewhat difficult and extended downtime to about 2 mins.
• Single mobs with one effect object were a bit more difficult than normal singles but not too much difference.
• Two mob groups with one effect object were definitely more difficult, probably about on par with a three mob group that had no effects.
• The boss and elite with no effects probably did about 15-35% of my health to me.
• The boss at the end with multiple effect objects did just over 50% of my health in damage, even after being stunned three times during the fight.
• I was able to sneak past all the mobs. Not sure if intentional, but possibly abusive if people want to uprate a dungeon they don't actually run. (just a guess as to how it'd be used... really not useful in there as skipping the mobs defeats the purpose of running those dungeons completely)
• XP rewarded: don't have an exact amount because I had to get my kid in bed and skipped to the last boss during the second room. I got 5.5k for only clearing about half, so I'd assume it would've been around 11k.

If any devs are feeling nice, it'd be awesome if you could copy over Trimia's two published dungeons from the Everfrost server to Test Copy: Keepers of the Ages (Hall of Fame/Chardok) and Elemental Crossroads (Poet's Palace). Those are both tweaked to be friendly, yet somewhat challenging, to both solo and grouped avatars and it'd be interesting to test how something of that difficulty works out for play as self and play as avatar under the new system.

Final feedback from these runs: There's too much downtime and mobs seem to be on steroids. Might want to tell them to lay off for a while.

[gourdon]

I did Cyliena's well designed test dungeon on Test Copy with my level 92/320 Assassin, which is my main character.  I can easily do all of the solo/molo dungeons without using a merc on this character.  I did the run without food or drink, but didn't notice.

The mobs were maybe a little bit harder to kill than those out in the Withered Lands.  I didn't one shot anything in my recollection.  They were completely impotent against me.  I didn't go run around trying to gather large groups of mobs, so I don't know yet what will result, so it may be that I just need a few more of them to hurt me.  This character is almost completely optimized for survival because I like soloing and moloing heroic content.

I'm going to guess that the dungeons might be a bit tough for some 90-92 characters that aren't so well geared or optimized.  It didn't seem to me that the mobs hit very hard, which shouldn't make them so bad at 90-92, but they do seem to be a tad bit too tough for the many characters that don't hit nearly as hard as a fairly well geared Assassin.

[Cyliena]

gourdon wrote:

I'm going to guess that the dungeons might be a bit tough for some 90-92 characters that aren't so well geared or optimized.  It didn't seem to me that the mobs hit very hard, which shouldn't make them so bad at 90-92, but they do seem to be a tad bit too tough for the many characters that don't hit nearly as hard as a fairly well geared Assassin.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I have a feeling that the damage output is optimized for well-geared 92s. This is likely why lower levels are having severe issues (if you have a lower level alt in the 20-70 range, try copying them and testing it).

Running it on my copy of Cyliena I didn't really have way too many problems but she did take a beating at times.. however, like you said, it was akin to fighting in Withered Lands with no merc. She's still in mostly PQ T3 gear so if a level 90 without DoV tried to run these they'd probably have big problems.

Lower levels get chewed up and spat out. Without a merc or a 90+ running with them, they'll swear off Dungeon Maker in no time flat.

I would like to point out that my test dungeon is really NOT representative of something I would normally make, difficulty-wise. Avatars (in their current iteration on live) can handle much more difficult fights than any combination I have in that little setup. If this goes to live as-is, a lot of currently published dungeons are going to become insanely difficult, if not impossible, to complete.

[gourdon]

I did a couple more dungeons, including the Test Copy Arena that Cyliena did and also did a much more difficult dungeon, Cinder's Test, which would have resulted in many deaths if I played an avatar.  I zipped through pretty recklessly and only had a couple of mildly scary situations that didn't even require I pull out predator's final trick.

It occurs to me that the massive difference in gear at level 90+ is going to require the developers make a choice.  Do you want to make a challenge for well geared characters?  If you do, then many will not be able to play their own characters in dungeon maker and will be best off using an avatar.  Otherwise, you will have to make the dungeons easier for the less well geared 90+ and let the dungeon market deliver more difficulty.  That is probably coming anyway as things are.  Finally, maybe there needs to be a choice in difficulty that the player can set, which will change the number of tokens they get.

[Mermut]

I leveld up my warden to 22 and put on master crafted armor and was able to to finish the dungeon... if I got my two big HoTs rolling before each single pull and renewed them regularly. Even then, I was always yellow or worse after each fight and almos out of power. The auto-attack damage is still 3 to 5 times higher then auto-attack damage of equivalent overland mobs. I still died multiple times as was unable to take anything that was leveled up or had any ^

Side note: When playing as yourself, gear gets damaged and you get xp debt when you die.. but the xp you get isn't awarded unless you exit the dungeon via the exit. If death has the same consequences as it does outside of dungeon maker, then xp should be awarded immediately as well.

[gourdon]

Cyliena wrote:

gourdon wrote:

I'm going to guess that the dungeons might be a bit tough for some 90-92 characters that aren't so well geared or optimized.  It didn't seem to me that the mobs hit very hard, which shouldn't make them so bad at 90-92, but they do seem to be a tad bit too tough for the many characters that don't hit nearly as hard as a fairly well geared Assassin.

I think you hit the nail on the head there. I have a feeling that the damage output is optimized for well-geared 92s. This is likely why lower levels are having severe issues (if you have a lower level alt in the 20-70 range, try copying them and testing it).

Running it on my copy of Cyliena I didn't really have way too many problems but she did take a beating at times.. however, like you said, it was akin to fighting in Withered Lands with no merc. She's still in mostly PQ T3 gear so if a level 90 without DoV tried to run these they'd probably have big problems.

Lower levels get chewed up and spat out. Without a merc or a 90+ running with them, they'll swear off Dungeon Maker in no time flat.

I would like to point out that my test dungeon is really NOT representative of something I would normally make, difficulty-wise. Avatars (in their current iteration on live) can handle much more difficult fights than any combination I have in that little setup. If this goes to live as-is, a lot of currently published dungeons are going to become insanely difficult, if not impossible, to complete.

Actually, I don't think the lower level characters have to be a problem long term.  They can just make it easier by giving them more favorable multiples on damage done and damage received.  However, they can't really those characters up to be more powerful than a middling 90+.  The question really is how much do they want a middling 90+ to be able to do.

[Finora]

I ran an older copy of my main from live (level 91/320 melee mystic in gear I got solo/crafting on test copy, link to eq2u in my signature at the bottom) through The Test Copy Arena.

She blew through the zone with ease. I never even cast an actual heal, just procs & things from aa.

I tried to run through the same zone with the Bellywhumper Cursecleaner avatar I like to use on live. For white con no arrow mobs, I could handle single mobs without too much difficulty, I did have to heal myself at least once or twice a fight though. Multiple mobs were quite hard. Two mobs together I could do with difficulty. Three mobs together destroyed me. The damage output from 3 white no arrow mobs at once was just too much for me to heal through.

Single up arrow white con mobs were very difficult.

Then I took the Windrider Curate avatar through the same dungeon. She actually did fairly well on the white con no arrow mobs. Even in 2s they weren't super hard. I think this is because she has good heals to cycle through. Groups of three were very difficult. If I was able to get one of them killed before I died I could come back and finish off the other two, but getting one dead before I died requires a little luck & several deaths. Any mobs that stun type effects often prove too difficult if they manage to get the stun off.

Single up arrow white con mobs were hard but not oppressivly so.

Now I copied over my level 24/51 aa mystic. She's on a server all alone so is being played basically like someone new to the game. She is geared as such. A couple of good items she made from reactants she got, the rest are things she has gotten questing.

She can manage one single white con monster but it is pretty hard. Now the mid to late 20s are difficult levels for mystics healing wise anyway. Their heals are weak at that level (stil using a level 14 ward until level 28 for example) so it's VERY hard to keep up with the damage the mobs are putting out. I think the lowest I was hit for was 108, it was more often near or more than 200 and pretty fast.

Single up arrow white mobs are extremely difficult. Once it ate through my wards, due to recast time it was a losing battle.

Multiple no arrow white cons killed me fast. I didn't bother trying 3 mobs at once since groups of 2 destroyed me so quickly.

In conclusion, if the changes went live as they are at the moment, no one who isn't at or near level 90 will be able to use it. They might try it but when they get waxed faster than they can blink they will likely not try again soon.

The mobs are over powered for characters below level 50 for sure and much too hard for avatars (who are level 50) as well.

As stated by someone earlier existing dungeons will be rendered far more difficult than they were ever intended to be and some will become completely impossible.

[Hordolin Awanagin]

I know you want the feedback in a certain format and I'll get that to you but initially this is what I have to say about it:

It appears that they are tuned exactly like the skyshrine "solo" instances. Sure, you can go in alone, but unless you're geared decently you're toast. Bring a merc and you're ok for the most part. I ran one instance with a 92/320 brigand and handily went through without issue or pause. Same dungeon with a 87/120ish troubador I didn't get past the first npc without dying. I'll be posting results from 3 toons at 3 different levels in solo runs (self, no merc, no group mates).

[gourdon]

As a contrasting data point to the other mid level characters, I tried my level 55/152 monk who is wearing mastercrafted armor and has good, mostly treasured but a few legendary and fabled, level 50ish pieces of equipment in the other slots.  I was soloing with him in The Living Tombs and the Silent City during the last double xp weekend, and he was doing alright.

The fights in Cyliena's test dungeon were not difficult at all.  After about 15 or so fights, I started running low on Health, but managed to push through all of the encounters with little waiting.  He didn't do as well as my 92/320 assassin, but if he had, then he would be overpowered.  The fights went differently with the 55 monk than the 92 assassin, and in a way one would not expect.  The monk hit proportionately harder and wasn't as durable.  I didn't try the much more difficult Cinder's Test because I'm rather certain he would die a lot in the bigger fights in there.

My monk is by no means a best case scenario level 55 character.  He pretty much has the maximum AAs spent, but his gear isn't as good as can be had.  He doesn't have any reactant gear at all.  Also, I'm not all that proficient at playing him.  There probably needs to be a little more help for the low level characters, but not so much for the low level characters with better gear and more AAs.  This particular character could use a boost, particularly with Health and Power regen, but really doesn't need too much more.

[gourdon]

Hordolin Awanagin wrote:

I know you want the feedback in a certain format and I'll get that to you but initially this is what I have to say about it:

It appears that they are tuned exactly like the skyshrine "solo" instances. Sure, you can go in alone, but unless you're geared decently you're toast. Bring a merc and you're ok for the most part. I ran one instance with a 92/320 brigand and handily went through without issue or pause. Same dungeon with a 87/120ish troubador I didn't get past the first npc without dying. I'll be posting results from 3 toons at 3 different levels in solo runs (self, no merc, no group mates).

A level 87 character with only 120AAs probably doesn't do well anywhere.  One would have to work at not getting AAs to end up with that ratio.  There has to be a point at which it just makes more sense to play an avatar instead of your own character, and I think 87/120 is well over that line.  It would be nice to hear from the developers what they think on the matter so we can better test for them.

[gourdon]

I decided to also run my 90/216 Swashbuckler who is wearing mostly Thurgadin armor with a couple Ry'Gorr pieces and the best faction equipment from DoV as well as better weapons like the short sword of Ykesha, but has few augments in his equipment.  He can barely eek through the easiest solo dungeon in Skyshrine with the help of a merc healer.

He didn't do as well in the test dungeon as my 55/152 monk.  He runs out of health after four or so encounters in a row.  He also had problems with the groups of 3 even up mobs.  To win those encounters, he has to use a lot of short term buffs and have all of his positional attacks ready to go.  Even some of the groups of 2 even up mobs were a problem for him.  However, once I brought in the inquisitor merc, everything went smoothly.

Considering that you need AoD to spend dungeon marks, it is reasonable to expect most people that will play in dungeon maker will have access to mercs.  As things stand, the mobs don't get tougher when you bring in your merc.  So, maybe it is OK that the dungeons are tuned with the expectation that a merc is being used.  Looking at it this way, the difficulty might not be too far off from where it needs to be.  The mobs need to be a little easier, but not by too large an amount, at least at 90.

[Hordolin Awanagin]

gourdon wrote:

A level 87 character with only 120AAs probably doesn't do well anywhere.  One would have to work at not getting AAs to end up with that ratio.  There has to be a point at which it just makes more sense to play an avatar instead of your own character, and I think 87/120 is well over that line.  It would be nice to hear from the developers what they think on the matter so we can better test for them.

Ok. so I understated it a little bit. 191 / 320 (0 Spent) so it doesn't really matter how many AA he has.

And the toon holds his own just fine as is in overland encounters. And yes, this character spent a lot of time with the AA slider set to 0.

[ReddyKY]

It doesn't sound as if I am going to be able to effectively use the avatars I paid for; that will be rather upsetting. The Coldain Assassin is my favorite, even over the dropped ones I have gotten.

I am definitely going to have to copy over the toons I design and run with.

[gourdon]

I tried Cyliena's test dungeon with my 32/39 Beastlord wearing handcrafted armor and handcrafted/treasured equipment.

Single mobs are not horribly tough.

Two mobs at once are not doable. 

The wait for regen after finishing an encounter are way too long to be anything but tedium.

With an inquisitor merc, all of the encounters become doable, but it still takes quite a long time get through not very much dungeon.

I decided to try the Brokentusk Warrior in Cyliena's dungeon and he didn't do much better than the beastlord character.  When faced with two even up mobs, he managed to kill one then died.  I wasn't able to get him to kill one of the group of three even up mobs at all.  As far as I can tell, the avatars aren't scaling very well either.

[Afun]

Quick suggestion - why not set up a "test" dungeon where you Devs know the layout, Mob placement, and intended difficulty?

Then when players test it, you know what the "designer" intended and have a much better idea of whether the "play as yourself" mechanic is working.

Also seems to me it would be a better test for the mechanic than having everyone jump into random player made dungeons.

If this is already the way the test is run, Ooops my bad lol

[Katenab]

Ran several of my characters (copied from Freeport) through Cyliena's Test Copy Arena.Troubadour, 90/255, mix of DoV and SS gearSingle mobs weren't a challenge. Had to take some measures (Veil of Notes) to kill double mobs. Could kill triple mobs, but only if I managed killed one (using Veil of Notes), died, respawned, waited for Veil of Notes to be usable again.Bruiser, 47/78, not very good armorSingle even 92 rat - not a challenge. Two even 92 rats - not possible w/o a merc (inquisitor). Three even 92 rats - dicey, but doable with a merc. Single one up lvl 96 - not doable alone (didn't try with merc).Inquisitor, 92/320, SS gearSolo'd with ease. The only thing that slowed me down was my run speed. Only used healing spells (Penance or Chilling Invigoration) against multiple mobs.Dirge, 90/298, mostly mastercrafted armorNot as easy as going through with my inquisitor, but not tough. I had to be careful with the triple mob and spend time healing afterward, but the only death was due to my overpulling.Beastlord 79/197, okay armorBarely made it against the three rats. Died vs. the three orcs and the three wolves, so I think I just got lucky the first time. Spent a lot of time injured.As noted before:Healing seems to take forever, even when eating decent food.Too much damage, too fast for the not-very-well equipped.While it's nice to have a sort of base-line dungeon, Cyliena's Test Copy Arena is pretty tame.What I noticed that I haven't seen mentioned:Three rats are separate three rats; therefore, "target encounter" spells don't really work. That's not a big deal for some classes, but for the troubadour and dirge, they're what we have instead of AoEs. I know this is more of a basic dungeon maker design problem, but it does impact my ability to play my character the way my character actually is.

[Cyliena]

Katenab wrote:

While it's nice to have a sort of base-line dungeon, Cyliena's Test Copy Arena is pretty tame.

Concurred. The dungeon was honestly tossed together in about 15 minutes while eating dinner and watching the Free Realms webcast.

I'm going to be copying over my char that actually has a lot more effect objects and elite/boss spawners this evening. The dungeon will be unpublished for a while to add in more beyond what's currently there for a bigger challenge for those having no issues in the first half.

[Finora]

This one is long, please bear with me.

I copied several more of my live characters over for testing. They are crafters so have aa spent in crafting though many of them have enough aa that they've maxed their other trees anyway.

lvl 29 swashbuckler/99 aa (30 spent in tradeskills) in Tester's Arena in mostly mastercrafted gear.

Single mobs were very easy. Even ^ ones.

Double mobs weren't very hard either.

Trios of mobs were hard.

I don't think this character would fair well at all in any of the "solo" designated dungeons on live currently.

lvl 34 Monk/115 aa in Tester's Arena mix of mastercrafted & dropped legendary for the most part, one fabled item from portal events & handcrafted weapons (because I've been lazy). 30 aas spent in tradeskill tree.

single white con no arrow lvl 92 mobs were no serious challenge. Had to use my heal sometimes in those fights.

Double white con no arrow lvl 92s could be tough but not bad if I had my heal up & devastation fist to get rid of one of the mobs fast.

Triple white con no arrow lvl 92s were hard. Doable if I killed one & feigned death while I healed up then killed the other two like I killed the previous double 92s.

Single white con one up arrow lvl 92 was more along the lines of fighting a double no arrow group (as expected). It was tough but doable.

lvl 53 berserker/136 aa (30 spent in Tradeskills) in Tester's Arena. Mostly mastercrafted, couple dropped legendary, 1 fabled from portals, some handcrafted jewelry.

had no trouble with anything in the dungeon. The level 96 white single up arrow took the longest of any single mob to kill, but it was still pretty fast.

Something I noticed though, the mobs were hitting my lvl 53 berserker for about the same damage & in many cases less damage as they were hitting my earlier tested 20s/30s characters (150-250 range mostly). Yes she has better armor but really the difference in damage taken should be more proportional than it seems to be.

lvl 51 fury/132 aa (30 spent in tradeskills) once again mostly mastercrafted, couple of treasured items, a couple of fabled items as well as a particularly bad item (she might as well not be wearing a belt now that i look at it).

Single white no arrow lvl 92s weren't too hard.

Single up arrow lvl 92 mob hit pretty hard quickly (600-700 autoattack) & was difficult.

Double white no arrow lvl 92s were not much more difficult than a single was.

Three white no arrow lvl 92s all together are too much to handle damage wise. If my root stuck on one of them, the fight was no issue.

All of the single white no arrows were no issue. Ones about 96 I could root & nuke, lower I could toe to toe if I wished.

A pair of no arrow white 92 wolves gave me some trouble together. One of them had a stifle type effect so I couldn't cast any heals & their damage together quickly took my health down. Splitting them made the fight very easy.

Fighting through the rest of the dungeon yielded similar results. If a group of mobs had one that had some ability that kept me from casting heals, I was a goner fast. If I split the group in most cases I could handle it (even if there were 3 as long as all 3 didn't have the same sort of ability).

Trio of vigor buffed wolves I ended up died after I killed one then came back & finished off the other 2.

Trio of battle prowess buffed rats gave issues due to roots not sticking.

The lvl 96 white single arrow up Kiana Dut vigor & battle prowess buffed was quite easy to kill. She had no adds at all though.

Overall single mobs were easy. Doubles were hard. Triples were only doable by splitting the group by either rooting one while I killed at least one of the others or killing one of the three then dying & coming back for the other 2 if I got stiffled.

lvl 45 shadowknight/138aas (30 in tradeskills, max spent in other areas) Tester's Arena.

All around pretty easy. Trios of mobs would take my health low, but were certainly very doable.

Duos were obviously a little harder than singles but they only took my health down a small amount.

It really seems some classes & level ranges are at a significant disadvantage now in the dungeon maker and the avatars are all but useless.

I can haul over several more classes as well but I think I'll wait until after the next patch. It's pretty frustrating to try to run through these with some characters.

[Cyliena]

The Test Copy Arena is re-published with increased difficulty if you decide to continue further into the dungeon. Hopefully it'll be more of a challenge for the higher level, better geared players... I dread to see what it'll be like on lower level toons and avatars, though.

I added in very obvious books to each area explaining what type of effects, pulls and/or difficulty you should expect from that room. The first four areas/books are what I consider, compared to current DM standards on live, to be non-challenging (but as stated by many above, are very challenging for lower levels/avatars on Test/Test Copy). The last four are where I placed mobs and effects as if I were making a normal, light-to-moderately challenging solo+ dungeon on live.

It's listed under the Chardok category! (I just noticed that no thumbnails for *any* published dungeons are showing up at the moment.)