In-game poll: Stationcash power, health, rez items for raids

[Maroger]

I and my 15 alts voted YES -- I would love these for soloing. And I see no difference in these than SLR. After all if you can make plats by selling SC cards and then buy loot rights - it is no difference than buying the item directly from SC. Personally I prefer to buy from SC than give a player the plat.

If SLR is OK then put these items on SC - no difference at all.

[Yimway]

Maroger wrote:

I and my 15 alts voted YES

And its a mystery why we ask if these polls can't be by account or customer.

[Asif]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Maroger wrote:

I and my 15 alts voted YES

And its a mystery why we ask if these polls can't be by account or customer.

How is that any differant than the poster couple pages back who said her 33 alts all voted no.

[Asif]

Maroger wrote:

I and my 15 alts voted YES -- I would love these for soloing. And I see no difference in these than SLR. After all if you can make plats by selling SC cards and then buy loot rights - it is no difference than buying the item directly from SC. Personally I prefer to buy from SC than give a player the plat.

If SLR is OK then put these items on SC - no difference at all.

Yup i am with you on this one i refuse to to but SLR from players or SC cards for that matter .

But i would not buy any of those potions off SC either but i dont see why people should care if they offer them.

[Raffir]

I voted "Yes" on all my alts...all 15 of them.   Even though I never used any of them when I played on Freeport. And I never will use them.  Its just not my style.

That said...I voted "Yes" because I don't believe anyone should be able to deny another person the right to play their game how they want to within rules of the game.

If you don't like them, don't use them.  If your guild doesn't like them, make a rule where they are not allowed. 

And SLR is "paying to win".....if you think its somehow different than the storebought items then its just pure hypocrisy.

I welcome these polls...because, finally,  the greater majority of heretofor silent players now has a voice and a vote in the determination of their gameplay.  Something that before was relegated to forum participation only.

Raf

[Juravael]

Pauly@Befallen wrote:

Glenedhel@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I fail to see what SLR has to do with the in game poll or the marketplace.

Real money for items.  Simple enough?

I have never once used real money to buy any in game items or sold/bought station cards and I never will. I have bought a few items from SLR for my alts using the plat that I have earned from questing, doing instances and selling crafted items on the in game broker.

[Rijacki]

Asif wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Maroger wrote:

I and my 15 alts voted YES

And its a mystery why we ask if these polls can't be by account or customer.

How is that any differant than the poster couple pages back who said her 33 alts all voted no.

It isn't. Both shouldn't be counted as more than once per account and it's dubious, in my opinion, that 'free' accounts should count at all. One could argue that a free account is more likely to pay for the items, but a player could make a dozen free accounts just in an attempt to sway such polling. Since it is possible for more than one player to use a single IP (i.e. a family), it wouldn't be entirely equitable to only count once per IP/location. But counting someone with max number of alts as more than someone who concentrates on just one isn't fair either.

But.. this isn't a vote. It's only an opinion poll. The outcome of the polling is unlikely to really sway whether or not the items are added/returned (depends on perspective which it is). SmokeJumper only promised a poll before they were added. He never said the outcome of the poll would influence whether or not they return. This does fulfill that "obligation" no matter if they're added or not.

[MurFalad]

I voted strongly no to all the items because I didn't want to see EQ2 become or be seen as a pay to win game.

Just taking a look at the Prosieben thread shows how a company having a reputation of running pay to win games is damaging for the long term.

As far as the items go though, for solo self res items it wouldn't really make any difference to the gameplay since solo gameplay is all easy to me anyway now, but I'd prefer to see it be made challenging and engaging gameplay again rather then further trivialised. 

I'd prefer that the game has a bit more danger, one example where it works for me are those fantastic glass walkways at the bottom of Soleks eye, I'm always aware there that one fall and I'm going to be back to the start again, its simple but it always adds a bit of tension to things.

[MurFalad]

Rijacki wrote:

But.. this isn't a vote. It's only an opinion poll. The outcome of the polling is unlikely to really sway whether or not the items are added/returned (depends on perspective which it is). SmokeJumper only promised a poll before they were added. He never said the outcome of the poll would influence whether or not they return. This does fulfill that "obligation" no matter if they're added or not.

He did also mention that they would publish the results (from memory listening to the EQTalk podcast he guest starred on, #36 from memory?), it would be interesting to see how the playerbase voted on this one.

[Guy De Alsace]

Maewyn@Unrest_old wrote:

Guy De Alsace wrote:

I dont get the vehemence against this when literally everyone does SLR.

Yeah ok it may not be real world cash but you are still paying to win, just with plat. If you want to risk being ripped off you can buy your plat with an SC card. Auction channel is chock full of it.

You buy a mount from the marketplace - pay to win as you no longer have to wade over tons of aggro mobs to get to where you need to be.

I think there's a certain element of hypocrisy in this thread. If you dont want pay to win, stop the SLR - then I think you will be on more certain footing. At least in my opinion.

Why does everything come back to SLR for you?

I bring it up because its relevant. One section of the playerbase says "this is totally abhorrent and will ruin the game" with one breath then follows it up with "WTS for lots of plat" with the other.

Yes, its possibly not real money that has exchanged hands but I also see a lot of - in the same channel - "wts SC cards for plat". Hence you buy SC cards for the plat you use to buy the gear. IE pay to win.

Its not like its now and again...the auction channel on Freeport is extremely healthy at the moment. So censuring SOE for wanting to introduce fairly minor stuff like this seems a bit rough on SOE to be honest. Not that they are currently in my good books being an EU player, but there it is.

Of course, this is my opinion and I'm not any kind of hardcore raider. If its any consolation I also voted strongly disagree on all my toons but thats with an eye to PSS1 getting the EU business and going totally mad with pay to win as they have already got a track record in that regard.

[SOE-MOD-08]

This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=50009...post_id=5743451 Nonconstructive.

[BChizzle]

Please SOE feel free to make these items SC available provided they are also attainable through crafting give people an option to either make buy or SC them and then its not game breaking.

[Tylia]

Coming soon to a server chat channel near you:

Lf {instert class} for {insert dungeon} group.  MUST have full stacks of SC power, health, and rez items.  PST!

Yeah, I can see that type of call-out happening once these things are added to the Marketplace, and I have a feeling they will be added regardless of the outcome of the "poll".

[Guy De Alsace]

@Lempo thanks for the great reply to my post. I just wanted some perspective on this thing to be honest. I played on FP when all this was freely available and to be brutally honest the common harvests for x SC was a godsend as I could circumvent the hilariously overpriced common harvests on the marketprice. So I guess I'm as guilty as anyone.

I think play to win is ok to a point. To me its not play to win but play to save some danged time. At least with what they proposing.

However this is a world away from what PSS1 have been accused of in the past which is basically the only way to beat content is to buy loot you cannot get in the game. Something PSS1 has already got a track record o f doing. This is the abhorrent thing.

[Laenai]

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

By 12/31/2012 There will be gear of fabled quality on the marketplace and more than likely mythical, maybe they won't go as far as to put the identical items in the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just rename them and change green stats by a point or two and blue stats by .1% or something.

I've got 10K plat that says when this happens (and it WILL happen. If you don't believe it, you're just fooling yourself) a great majority of the folks who curse SLR and say its ruining the game will sing SoE's praises. Because paying real money for make believe items is so morally righteous over paying make believe money for make believe items.

Research reducers, power, health and rez items, scrolls of tracking, orbs of summoning, etc. are just paving stones along that road. We'll see plat for sale, arrows, rares, "lesser" legendary gear, and finally raid equivalent gear, followed shortly by "This item is required to kill XXX HM mob in XXX challenge zone (1 charge per purchase)". All of this after the words "EQ2 will never become Free to Play."

Somehow, I don't see SLR killing the game. I see $C turning it into something similar to what PSS1 produces. And EQNext will not only pick up on the marketplace where EQ2 leaves off, the entire game will START focused around what they can sell you for cash.

I hear so often about what an amazing game EQ1 was, about how Smedly was so hands-on in the first several years, that the game and franchise was his baby. It disgusts me to think that someone who cared about something so much has let it rot so badly and will continue to let it fester until its something that's unrecognizable from the original glory days. Pathetic.

[Gaealiege]

That's because Smedley originally designed games because he loved games.

Now Smedley and the board of directors make games to make money.

Those are mutually exclusive drives.  One results in quality, the other in quantity.

[Morrias]

Laenai@Oasis wrote:

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

By 12/31/2012 There will be gear of fabled quality on the marketplace and more than likely mythical, maybe they won't go as far as to put the identical items in the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just rename them and change green stats by a point or two and blue stats by .1% or something.

I've got 10K plat that says when this happens (and it WILL happen. If you don't believe it, you're just fooling yourself) a great majority of the folks who curse SLR and say its ruining the game will sing SoE's praises. Because paying real money for make believe items is so morally righteous over paying make believe money for make believe items.

Research reducers, power, health and rez items, scrolls of tracking, orbs of summoning, etc. are just paving stones along that road. We'll see plat for sale, arrows, rares, "lesser" legendary gear, and finally raid equivalent gear, followed shortly by "This item is required to kill XXX HM mob in XXX challenge zone (1 charge per purchase)". All of this after the words "EQ2 will never become Free to Play."

Somehow, I don't see SLR killing the game. I see $C turning it into something similar to what PSS1 produces. And EQNext will not only pick up on the marketplace where EQ2 leaves off, the entire game will START focused around what they can sell you for cash.

I hear so often about what an amazing game EQ1 was, about how Smedly was so hands-on in the first several years, that the game and franchise was his baby. It disgusts me to think that someone who cared about something so much has let it rot so badly and will continue to let it fester until its something that's unrecognizable from the original glory days. Pathetic.

I absolutely love you.

[gourdon]

Laenai@Oasis wrote:

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

By 12/31/2012 There will be gear of fabled quality on the marketplace and more than likely mythical, maybe they won't go as far as to put the identical items in the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just rename them and change green stats by a point or two and blue stats by .1% or something.

I've got 10K plat that says when this happens (and it WILL happen. If you don't believe it, you're just fooling yourself) a great majority of the folks who curse SLR and say its ruining the game will sing SoE's praises. Because paying real money for make believe items is so morally righteous over paying make believe money for make believe items.

Research reducers, power, health and rez items, scrolls of tracking, orbs of summoning, etc. are just paving stones along that road. We'll see plat for sale, arrows, rares, "lesser" legendary gear, and finally raid equivalent gear, followed shortly by "This item is required to kill XXX HM mob in XXX challenge zone (1 charge per purchase)". All of this after the words "EQ2 will never become Free to Play."

Somehow, I don't see SLR killing the game. I see $C turning it into something similar to what PSS1 produces. And EQNext will not only pick up on the marketplace where EQ2 leaves off, the entire game will START focused around what they can sell you for cash.

I hear so often about what an amazing game EQ1 was, about how Smedly was so hands-on in the first several years, that the game and franchise was his baby. It disgusts me to think that someone who cared about something so much has let it rot so badly and will continue to let it fester until its something that's unrecognizable from the original glory days. Pathetic.

Just two more Chicken Littles to add to the long list of those that have been wrong.  There are circumstances that could end up with meaningful gear (plain jane MC isn't meaningful) for SC on the marketplace, but they won't be happening in 2012.

[Elskidor]

There is nothing shocking about this if it goes live, and it's the fault of the people who gave in on the little things (research potions, mounts with stats) and decided "It's just a minor scam, we'll let it slide for now." The door way was opened long ago, and it will get alot worse.

[tarb]

I logged in for the first time in a couple weeks just to vote NO on this pole on all my toons, I am also glad to see SLR is going away, I'm old school if you want something earn it period. However I feel us old schoolers are outnumbered more and the games we loves are slowly being changed for the all mighty dollar.

[Malleria]

tarb wrote:

I logged in for the first time in a couple weeks just to vote NO on this pole on all my toons, I am also glad to see SLR is going away, I'm old school if you want something earn it period. However I feel us old schoolers are outnumbered more and the games we loves are slowly being changed for the all mighty dollar.

Wouldn't a true 'old schooler' be in favor of all drops being completely tradable? After all, that's how both EQ1 and 2 launched...

[Laenai]

gourdon wrote:

Laenai@Oasis wrote:

Lempo@Everfrost wrote:

By 12/31/2012 There will be gear of fabled quality on the marketplace and more than likely mythical, maybe they won't go as far as to put the identical items in the game, but I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't just rename them and change green stats by a point or two and blue stats by .1% or something.

I've got 10K plat that says when this happens (and it WILL happen. If you don't believe it, you're just fooling yourself) a great majority of the folks who curse SLR and say its ruining the game will sing SoE's praises. Because paying real money for make believe items is so morally righteous over paying make believe money for make believe items.

Research reducers, power, health and rez items, scrolls of tracking, orbs of summoning, etc. are just paving stones along that road. We'll see plat for sale, arrows, rares, "lesser" legendary gear, and finally raid equivalent gear, followed shortly by "This item is required to kill XXX HM mob in XXX challenge zone (1 charge per purchase)". All of this after the words "EQ2 will never become Free to Play."

Somehow, I don't see SLR killing the game. I see $C turning it into something similar to what PSS1 produces. And EQNext will not only pick up on the marketplace where EQ2 leaves off, the entire game will START focused around what they can sell you for cash.

I hear so often about what an amazing game EQ1 was, about how Smedly was so hands-on in the first several years, that the game and franchise was his baby. It disgusts me to think that someone who cared about something so much has let it rot so badly and will continue to let it fester until its something that's unrecognizable from the original glory days. Pathetic.

Just two more Chicken Littles to add to the long list of those that have been wrong.  There are circumstances that could end up with meaningful gear (plain jane MC isn't meaningful) for SC on the marketplace, but they won't be happening in 2012.

I've actually got my money on Feb. 2013. That'd be about the time another "real" expansion would come out.

And thus far, what many of us "Chicken Littles" have predicted in so far as F2P and $C is concerned has come true. You don't have to be an aeronautical engineer or a neuro surgeon to see what's happening. You just have to use a little foresight.

[Michayla]

It's amazing the lengths people will go through just to attempt to prove their point, and how far they are willing to reach.

I fail to see how SLR is comparable to this. People selling in game loot is not the same thing as SoE selling potentially game breaking stuff. Not everyone who buys SLR does it on the backs of SC cards. 

[SiegaPlays]

I wonder if people supporting power items also support people in sports using performance enhancers like epo.

Because the situation is equivalent at the competitive game level.

It is not a question of not using it yourself, or having all of your guild go no-power items if they get available.The competitive level for raiding is between guilds. One guild can at some level police their own players, but there is no way to police or prove abuse in competing guilds.

How can one compare guild progression, if some guilds uses the "game epo" (power items), use exploits or even third party applications to win? SOE is in theory obliged to find and put a block on the later two.

But the moment SOE legalise game epo into the progressive raid environment, they ruin raiding as a valid gaming "sports", only accessable for those with the biggest wallet and not nessecarily those with the talent to play their class well. The moment they put game epo into the game with no policing of the situation it can be used in, is the day they truly ruin SOE games for raiders.

I don't care if SOE makes it possible using soloing, but I do care if they ruin high end progression by making this sort of items available in current progression raid levels or even groups on hardmode. I care less on content that has been beat over and over by most of the player base - game epo might help more see stuff that high end raiders has long past.

But high end progression should be kept sacrosanct and competitive and depend on having talent and commitment ingame, otherwise it would stop being a attractive sport - on EQ2.

[Lempo]

gourdon wrote:

Just two more Chicken Littles to add to the long list of those that have been wrong.  There are circumstances that could end up with meaningful gear (plain jane MC isn't meaningful) for SC on the marketplace, but they won't be happening in 2012.

What circumstances pray tell, do you think would justify meaningful gear being put on the SC shop?

I know where you stand and what your agenda is

gourdon wrote [on EQ2 Wire]:

They have had a problem in the past where there is this huge gap between solo content and heroic content. There needs to be content to span the gap between stupid easy solo stuff and that which requires 6 characters in top of the line solo gear or low end heroic gear. That is roughly an x10 jump in difficulty. There should be something in the middle that drops similar gear to the full blown heroic content, but in much smaller quantities (maybe 1/3 the rate or less) so that there is still advantage to doing the harder heroic version if you can manage it.

You want much easier content that drops gear that is equal in power to what drops in these heroic zones, only in smaller quantities.

That 10x jump in difficulty... Is that just a number you decided to toss out there and see if it would stick? I for one am not buying it. I really would like to know how exactly you think that when DoV was released groups were doing these zones that were FAR, FAR more difficult, because the quest gear and PQ gear was better than what they had from SF raids, so with a mix of quest gear, instance gear and PQ gear they were able to do what was claimed to be 'impossible' by the "It's too hard..." crowd.

[SisterTheresa]

I agree and disagree.

Firstly, make the Alchemist potions BETTER.  Healing 300 hp on a person with fricking 30k is stupid and worthless.  I think if this is done there would be no need for Marketplace items that do the same.  Just keep the timer the same etc.

Yet, in a way having a potion to rez or heal would be good BUT the timer better make it not able to be spammed.  There have been instances where I've died deep in a dungeon (and my merc is already dead so can't rez) so it would help.  Or where my group is fighting and we're low on power so that mana potion would help.

It's all a matter of balance, though I really feel the Alchemist potions should be upgraded.

[Morrias]

gourdon wrote:

Just two more Chicken Littles to add to the long list of those that have been wrong.  There are circumstances that could end up with meaningful gear (plain jane MC isn't meaningful) for SC on the marketplace, but they won't be happening in 2012.

So far everything that these people and myself said that would happen when the Marketplace was first forcefully added to live without any warning or announcement has happened with the exception of game changing material.

I personaly said F2P was coming when they added the Marketplace, it was obvious as hell, most of the population is gone now, but here we are with F2P and SoE asking to add game changing material to the marketplace.

By the time EQ3 is out I would bet EQ2s Marketplace will have lesser gear on it, certainly not raid gear but perhaps Mastercrafted or maybe even Reactants, but I promise you, EQ3s Marketplace will pick up where EQ2s left off.

Luckily my guild doesn't allow our members to buy non fluff stuff from the Marketplace so I really don't care what SoE does as long as they don't completely destroy the game.

[Raffir]

SiegaPlays wrote:

I wonder if people supporting power items also support people in sports using performance enhancers like epo.

Because the situation is equivalent at the competitive game level.

It is not a question of not using it yourself, or having all of your guild go no-power items if they get available.The competitive level for raiding is between guilds. One guild can at some level police their own players, but there is no way to police or prove abuse in competing guilds.

How can one compare guild progression, if some guilds uses the "game epo" (power items), use exploits or even third party applications to win? SOE is in theory obliged to find and put a block on the later two.

But the moment SOE legalise game epo into the progressive raid environment, they ruin raiding as a valid gaming "sports", only accessable for those with the biggest wallet and not nessecarily those with the talent to play their class well. The moment they put game epo into the game with no policing of the situation it can be used in, is the day they truly ruin SOE games for raiders.

I don't care if SOE makes it possible using soloing, but I do care if they ruin high end progression by making this sort of items available in current progression raid levels or even groups on hardmode. I care less on content that has been beat over and over by most of the player base - game epo might help more see stuff that high end raiders has long past.

But high end progression should be kept sacrosanct and competitive and depend on having talent and commitment ingame, otherwise it would stop being a attractive sport - on EQ2.

The only problem with your lil analogy here is that your "guild" is not competing with anyone else's "guild".  The only competition you have is between you and the raid instance and eventually the Boss (es).  The rest of us could give hoot about what you and your guild is doing.

Nothing you do even touches our experiences in the same raid instances.  You'll never know if we're using "game epo"...and we'll never know for all your forum claims..whether you'll ever use "game epo" ...except to save your raid..just once..or maybe twice.  Not that anyone would give a fat rats pattootie anyway.

Gaming ain't a competitive sport.  Its a pastime with delusions of grandeur.

Raf

[Morrias]

Raffir wrote:

The only problem with your lil analogy here is that your "guild" is not competing with anyone else's "guild".  The only competition you have is between you and the raid instance and eventually the Boss (es).  The rest of us could give hoot about what you and your guild is doing.

Nothing you do even touches our experiences in the same raid instances.  You'll never know if we're using "game epo"...and we'll never know for all your forum claims..whether you'll ever use "game epo" ...except to save your raid..just once..or maybe twice.  Not that anyone would give a fat rats pattootie anyway.

Gaming ain't a competitive sport.  Its a pastime with delusions of grandeur.

Raf

Just because you play one way, doesn't mean everyone plays that way. Some people do enjoy the competition. This is honestly the biggest problem with MMOs, there are so many ways to play and no one understands how others play because they only play with people that play like them.

And saying gaming isn't competitive in a way that can be compared to a sport is just plain wrong, try playing a FPS like Left 4 Dead 2 or Battlefield 3 and tell me it's not competitive. People form teams, and go against each other in organized matches, how is that much different than a sport? The same *could* apply here depending how one plays.

Regardless end game raiding is competitive, items like this in end game raiding could be a slippery slope into completely ruining the competitive experience and in the end ruining raiding in general.

[Raffir]

Morrias@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Raffir wrote:

The only problem with your lil analogy here is that your "guild" is not competing with anyone else's "guild".  The only competition you have is between you and the raid instance and eventually the Boss (es).  The rest of us could give hoot about what you and your guild is doing.

Nothing you do even touches our experiences in the same raid instances.  You'll never know if we're using "game epo"...and we'll never know for all your forum claims..whether you'll ever use "game epo" ...except to save your raid..just once..or maybe twice.  Not that anyone would give a fat rats pattootie anyway.

Gaming ain't a competitive sport.  Its a pastime with delusions of grandeur.

Raf

Just because you play one way, doesn't mean everyone plays that way. Some people do enjoy the competition. This is honestly the biggest problem with MMOs, there are so many ways to play and no one understands how others play because they only play with people that play like them.

And saying gaming isn't competitive in a way that can be compared to a sport is just plain wrong, try playing a FPS like Left 4 Dead 2 or Battlefield 3 and tell me it's not competitive. People form teams, and go against each other in organized matches, how is that much different than a sport? The same *could* apply here depending how one plays.

Regardless end game raiding is competitive, items like this in end game raiding could be a slippery slope into completely ruining the competitive experience and in the end ruining raiding in general.

I didn't say gaming wasn't competitive.  I said that I didn't think it could be classified as the competitive sport that Seiga thinks it is.  We're probably splitting hairs here though.

But how can these items ruin end game raiding?  If your guild abhors them?  Then ban their use in your Guild.

Why can't you guys accept the responsibility for adjusting "your" game to "your" liking instead of insisting the entire game conform to your limited views of gameplay?

Raf