Fix or remove the dungeon finder ...

[Odys]

I m fed up to be called with wizards without even a tank, we actually killed some named in ascent/isk/fp with no tank but we could rarely complete it. I need items from those instances that nobody ever run anymore. Would it be possible to get a system in which we get a group composition with at least one healer and one tank ?

Could the group fills up withou zoning you ?

[Deago]

Your posts are always awesome!

Ontopic:  Good luck.

[Brigh]

You are lucky DF is even doing anything for you. /1 LFM for xxx zone. Need xxxxx...have mercs if needed

[dawy]

Dead in the water it seems to me

[Wirewhisker]

Well, assuming the game survives the latest crisis, I fully expect that a cross-server dungeon finder, hopefully with performance tweaks installed and some smarter group creation mechanisms, would quickly follow.

Because either way, there's going to be player bleed as part of the fallout of the PSS.1 decision, and they're going to have to account for the smaller playerbase somehow. Which either means more merges, or cross-server DF.

[dawy]

Wirewhisker@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Well, assuming the game survives the latest crisis, I fully expect that a cross-server dungeon finder, hopefully with performance tweaks installed and some smarter group creation mechanisms, would quickly follow.

Because either way, there's going to be player bleed as part of the fallout of the PSS.1 decision, and they're going to have to account for the smaller playerbase somehow. Which either means more merges, or cross-server DF.

If it truns out to be as bad as we expect (and i suspect it will be really bad) then server merges will be the only viable way of having players again,what a sad state of affairs for this great game.

[Nrgy]

DF Options for Devs... choose one.

1. Add Gear Score
2. Remove DF from the game

[CoLD MeTaL]

Nrgy wrote:

DF Options for Devs... choose one.

1. Add Gear Score
2. Remove DF from the game

3.  Change dungeons to be run by mere mortals without group stacking.

[Freejazzlive]

Nrgy wrote:

Remove DF from the game

I'll take that one.

[Onorem]

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Nrgy wrote:

DF Options for Devs... choose one.

1. Add Gear Score
2. Remove DF from the game

3.  Change dungeons to be run by mere mortals without group stacking.

Mere mortals can already run dungeons. No group stacking required.

[Nrgy]

CoLD MeTaL wrote:

Nrgy wrote:

DF Options for Devs... choose one.

1. Add Gear Score
2. Remove DF from the game

3.  Change dungeons to be run by mere mortals without group stacking.

Whats that?  Content is too hard, please make it easier?

[Yimway]

You guys are all off...

The following needs to happen:

1) Remove DF from game2) Redesign DF to be cross server3) Use the gearscore already in game (but hidden) to group players together4) Do not zone people in till you've matched all required roles5) If you leave group or zone in any way, you return to where you started (DF is not a transport system).6) Relaunch DF and it will work this time.

[Freejazzlive]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

2) Redesign DF to be cross server3) Use the gearscore already in game (but hidden) to group players together4) Do not zone people in till you've matched all required roles5) If you leave group or zone in any way, you return to where you started (DF is not a transport system).

Just import WoW's dungeon finder, as it has most/all of these features already. After all, we've got battlegrounds, we might as well take the next step in the WoW-ization of the genre.

*ducks for cover*

[Yimway]

Freejazzlive wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

2) Redesign DF to be cross server3) Use the gearscore already in game (but hidden) to group players together4) Do not zone people in till you've matched all required roles5) If you leave group or zone in any way, you return to where you started (DF is not a transport system).

Just import WoW's dungeon finder, as it has most/all of these features already. After all, we've got battlegrounds, we might as well take the next step in the WoW-ization of the genre.

*ducks for cover*

I've never used WoW's DF, but if it does what I stated, sounds awesome!

[Freejazzlive]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Freejazzlive wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

2) Redesign DF to be cross server3) Use the gearscore already in game (but hidden) to group players together4) Do not zone people in till you've matched all required roles5) If you leave group or zone in any way, you return to where you started (DF is not a transport system).

Just import WoW's dungeon finder, as it has most/all of these features already. After all, we've got battlegrounds, we might as well take the next step in the WoW-ization of the genre.

*ducks for cover*

I've never used WoW's DF, but if it does what I stated, sounds awesome!

I don't think it has Step 4 "do not zone people in til you've matched all required roles," & while WoW had GearScore, I'm not sure that the DF operated on it. I don't think it did when I last played, though it may well do so now. GearScore, of course, has its own issues.

But it was cross-server, & it popped you back to where you were when you left the dungeon -- I don't believe you could just pop out the entrance way & use it for "transportation," though I guess I could be wrong on that. It worked well, tho.

FWIW, Rift also has a dungeon finder system, similar to WoW's, which does have explicit gear checks in it based on the dungeon tier. But Rift's system also had issues, due to the class/soul/role system. I've not played Rift since last June tho, so I don't know if they've changed the system since then.

My big issue with Dungeon Finder is more of a personal issue than anything else: my experience, in both WoW & Rift, is that dungeon-finder groups tended to be silent, soul-less, joyless excursions into "let's just get this done, move on, & pretend we never ever saw each other." IMO, this becomes even more pronounced if it works cross-server; IMO, it was heavily responsible for the decline, in WoW, of already shaky server communities. That's why I'd prefer to simply get rid of it entirely; I see it as nothing but a Band-Aid that disguises, without actually addressing, deeper issues in the player population.

[Yimway]

Freejazzlive wrote:

My big issue with Dungeon Finder is more of a personal issue than anything else: my experience, in both WoW & Rift, is that dungeon-finder groups tended to be silent, soul-less, joyless excursions into "let's just get this done, move on, & pretend we never ever saw each other."

I agree with this sentiment, however I will take the souless group over no group.

[Freejazzlive]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Freejazzlive wrote:

My big issue with Dungeon Finder is more of a personal issue than anything else: my experience, in both WoW & Rift, is that dungeon-finder groups tended to be silent, soul-less, joyless excursions into "let's just get this done, move on, & pretend we never ever saw each other."

I agree with this sentiment, however I will take the souless group over no group.

I'd like to agree that the soulless group is better than no group .... but, IMO, soul-less groups are one of the reasons we have no groups. Simply put, in EQ2, WoW, & Rift, I have repeatedly seen posts from people saying that it's not they don't LIKE grouping, it's that they don't have the time or the inclination to put up with smack-talking wastes of oxygen who can't or won't figure out which button to push when.

Dungeon Finder is a Band-Aid .... better players are the solution. But MMO developers can't code for better players

[Wanic]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Freejazzlive wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

2) Redesign DF to be cross server3) Use the gearscore already in game (but hidden) to group players together4) Do not zone people in till you've matched all required roles5) If you leave group or zone in any way, you return to where you started (DF is not a transport system).

Just import WoW's dungeon finder, as it has most/all of these features already. After all, we've got battlegrounds, we might as well take the next step in the WoW-ization of the genre.

*ducks for cover*

I've never used WoW's DF, but if it does what I stated, sounds awesome!

Wow's DF is pretty much the same as you posted, and it works rather well tbh, 

[shots01]

hmmm how to reply to this one.

Over the double xp weekend, Saturday was a great day for my defiler.  Got in a good group and we stayed together for several hours.

Sunday, on my warden, it was a nightmare. 

My 76 ranger has been in a few good groups.  Got to run a few instances I would never have seen before.

I just wish more reliable people would use DF if they keep it in game.

As for mercs.. I am a bit tired of people telling me to get a merc and solo. 

1.  That isn't soloing.

2.  I don't WANT to use a merc.  I am dead set against them and that is my right.  I refused to use hirelings in DDO and I refuse to use mercs in EQ2. 

My refusal to use a merc should not prevent me from being able to find or get into a group.  I really feel that mercs have hurt this game on a grouping basis.

If had to say anything.. I would say revamp DF and get rid of mercs.

[shots01]

Freejazzlive wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Freejazzlive wrote:

My big issue with Dungeon Finder is more of a personal issue than anything else: my experience, in both WoW & Rift, is that dungeon-finder groups tended to be silent, soul-less, joyless excursions into "let's just get this done, move on, & pretend we never ever saw each other."

I agree with this sentiment, however I will take the souless group over no group.

I'd like to agree that the soulless group is better than no group .... but, IMO, soul-less groups are one of the reasons we have no groups. Simply put, in EQ2, WoW, & Rift, I have repeatedly seen posts from people saying that it's not they don't LIKE grouping, it's that they don't have the time or the inclination to put up with smack-talking wastes of oxygen who can't or won't figure out which button to push when.

Dungeon Finder is a Band-Aid .... better players are the solution. But MMO developers can't code for better players

I laughed at that.  I consider Mercs a band-aid.

[Nrgy]

shots01 wrote:

hmmm how to reply to this one.

Over the double xp weekend, Saturday was a great day for my defiler.  Got in a good group and we stayed together for several hours.

Sunday, on my warden, it was a nightmare. 

My 76 ranger has been in a few good groups.  Got to run a few instances I would never have seen before.

I just wish more reliable people would use DF if they keep it in game.

As for mercs.. I am a bit tired of people telling me to get a merc and solo. 

1.  That isn't soloing.

2.  I don't WANT to use a merc.  I am dead set against them and that is my right.  I refused to use hirelings in DDO and I refuse to use mercs in EQ2. 

My refusal to use a merc should not prevent me from being able to find or get into a group.  I really feel that mercs have hurt this game on a grouping basis.

If had to say anything.. I would say revamp DF and get rid of mercs.

See, we agree 100%, I too wish more reliable people would use the DF tool.  People that would actually be able to contribute in zones which they que for becasue both the player queing and the SOE Dev fail to understand what minimum requirements are.  Those being Matching Group memebers to each other, not by nerfing entrance stats which were NEVER a problem in the first place for those that pased the first test, Knowing what they were doing.

[MurFalad]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

You guys are all off...

The following needs to happen:

1) Remove DF from game2) Redesign DF to be cross server3) Use the gearscore already in game (but hidden) to group players together4) Do not zone people in till you've matched all required roles5) If you leave group or zone in any way, you return to where you started (DF is not a transport system).6) Relaunch DF and it will work this time.

One thing missing from the list that WoW has is before #4 it has a final "are you ready" check, so if people queued an hour ago and went afk then the group would fail to startup and the players who hit ready would be returned to the top of the queue.

Just adding that alone to EQ2's system would prevent every instance of a partial group appearing at the zone start.

And I definitely agree with #5, it compounds the flaws in EQ2's system that I get zoned half way around the world to a dungeon zone in and have to run back.

As for having dungeon finder at all though, not really a fan, personally I think it should be limited to the lower levels only if at all, when people hit 90 there are just so many people anyway to group with and the group composition/gear etc is so varied that I think only the playerbase can make the right decisions.

Still with the new European deal coming up it looks like its all moot for me since all kinds of crazy region lock restrictions and ominous different cash shop setups will no doubt make any world wide EQ2 impossible.

[Freejazzlive]

shots01 wrote:

I consider Mercs a band-aid.

I absolutely agree. But that doesn't prevent Dungeon Finder from being a Band-Aid.

[Odys]

Today DF did another 2 utterly stupid things :

 We were 4 and I was asking people in 1-9, 90, 80-89 to join our queue and i was asking specific classes. Got a tell from a tank, tried to invite him and could not. You cannot invite people while in DF.

Then asked tank to queue. Tank queud and got zoned inside an empty instance in a new group in which he was alone.

So  had to disband group, leave instance, reiinvite people and wait for tank timer to be gone.

A bit later i see a group looking for a healer, i m told to queue. I do, nothing happens. Asked the people if they got a healer but no they were still waiting.

The problem with using any channel is the constant spam with SLR and SC card selling. There is no LFG channel.

[Silkmyst]

Today I was que'd, ended up alone in a zone with a reinforce button.  Uh......  I don't get it?

Then because I left the zone (doh), I was locked out of DF for 15 minutes.  Fifteen minutes later I got

some flashing message and "sad you lose" music, saying I'd left my DF group.

Seriously, are they kidding?

Cross server or forget it I guess.

Silk

[achel]

my experience with dungeon finder in the world of warcraft. Very convenient to a point where no one needs to talk to the other player because it's cross server I found people were generally rude made for soulless groups.

I don't know whether because its crossover people feel they don't need to be polite because they're there to get the job done and I'll never see these people again so I can behave like idiot and there's no come back.

Another thing I found with dungeon finder in wow was.

It turns the game into a lobby system where a player could just park themselves in town queue up their dungeon run it queue up the next one and be magically transported all over the game world. Seriously you could level to max level without ever leaving the town from level 10, you could remove all the games world just leave the city's in and still be able to achieve your shiny gear.

Now I can appreciate when people say I don't want to look for group hours and hours and you should not but employing a system that in my opinion destroys the fundamentals of a massively multiplayer online role-playing game and turn into a massively multiplayer game.

I think when game company implements game tools that remove the need to interact with their environment which includes the people in that environment you lose something special which is the community, the community in everquest everquest 2 in my opinion is one of the best, and I truly believe this is not because we are apparently an older community is because the game at the beginning did not have these hold hand tools that removed the need to use our communicative skills, so that wizard became a person and you found out how he played and what he was like as a person added him to your friends list may be or ignore but still something happened and when you passed him in the town you stoped to chat or crossed the street

I think a one of things have taken away our ability to make groups in game

instances: I say this because we feel we need the perfect group dynamic, in the open dungeons when there was not as an abundant amount of instances, you would turn up at the dungeon and use the people that was available maybe fail may be achieved success. you may have only had a wizard a mage and enchanter type and together decide to enter the open dungeon you start front and you evaluate what skills you have as a collective, the mage gets his tank pets out the encounter type increases aggreo on the pet and you pull with roots mesmerise and stuns to reduce the damage on the pet using skills that you wouldn't usually use in the perfect group as a group you feel you've achieved something and generally speaking friendships formed in the face of adversity now may be you meet someone else along the way. My point being this group probably wouldn't Have happens and would not have met someone along the way to team up with friendships comradeship and the feeling of achievement in doing what is now considered unconventional group, many of us have been in groups with no tank no healer and kite maybe charm switch aggro mage use sacrifice as a hel necromancers likewise use abilities can restore HP's snaring stunning managing aggro , fd just a mention a few abilities that we find aren't in our rotation to get maximum DPS maximum aggro maximum heals, I say this because in this case gear score would mean nothing because the dynamics are different it relies more on the ability of the individual to know what his class can do.

If we want everything managed for us to the point where we do not need to interact with our community where we just push a button and clever software works out what gear score is finds us Tank healer DPS puts us in a dungeon that is instance that has been run 100 times with people we have no need to communicate with because they have run it 100 times with the same group make up, so nothing has changed nothing, add to that they are from another servers so we will never see them again so no need to create a relationship. 

[Naychan]

Well Ihave to say the reason you got souless people is due to the people playing the game not the dungeon finder. Rift's DF is by far the best system out there never had a problem with cross server groups and the people were alot of fun. FIX DF

1. Cross server, Some of the servers just dont have enough people lfg all the time.

2. Ready check if everybody is not ready dont frigging pull them into the dungeon and mercs cant click the ready icon so dont include them in the group makeup. The ready check needs to be implementd to show up right before zone that way if sombody is not ready it replaces them insted of zoneing people in with a incomplete group.

3. Make sure you have the correct roles, Tank, healer, Utility, dps, other, other. If you dont have the basics dont throw people into a frigging dungeon. If the dungeon has mobs that will mez the healer then make one of the requirments 2 healers. But please stop throwing random classes into a dungeon and expect us to be happy about it.

4. Stat Checks, You have to have x hp/mit/cc to enter in with a PUG DF. IF your running sf pq gear they should not zone you into drunder or the rime instances thats asking for them to get one shotted which will ruin the experience for everybody.

5. Zone lock out timers. If it random it should ignore the lockout timers. Yes you might get a random dungeon 3 times in a row but its better then having your group zone in and then you cant get in because of a lock out timer. Lock out timers are a punshimnet against the DF change it.

6. On completion the exit should zone you back to where the DF pulled you from not right outside the dungeon. People might have been doing pq's hunting shinies, banking what ever. Put them back where you found them!

7. Incentive items. ok really glass gear nobdoy is going to take this as a upgrade cause they cant repair it. make it real gear or a random zone drop. Every one of these supposed incentive gear drops I have gotten I have destroyed. I cant even mute it. or better yet offer extra shards. at least then we can save up for gear or items that we really want. Glass gear is a bad bad idea.

8. 15 min lock out timer if you leave or are not ready. Again another punshiment against the DF if sombody gets up to do somthing and they miss it there should be no punshiment. Alot of people also will not zone out and leave if the groups are defined correctly before you go into the dungon.

Alot of aother games are making this work and I know sony has a talented programming team. Stop rushing stuff out the door before you check everything and actually make sure it works. You are really just making people angry.

[Odys]

Latest DF joke, i queued for Rime fortress.

Depending on group make up i can or cannot solo heal a group equiped with gear similar to mine, and yeah with 2 healer 1 tank and 3 others we can make it.

My gear is the one intended for this kind of instances, indeed it may be slightly above since now rygor/thurg armor do not requie shards. Actually when DOV came out we did it with similar/lesser gear and (cannot remember if we had a mezzer).

I got grouped with a berzeker having 23K hps.

I don't really get how a tank can have so few hps at 90, even with Ohmir he should be in the 28. Tried to ask him he was doing tradeskills and wearing TS clothers, no reply.

So yeap some form of gear check is necessary.

[CoLD MeTaL]

Gorock@Storms wrote:

...I got grouped with a berzeker having 23K hps.

I don't really get how a tank can have so few hps at 90, even with Ohmir he should be in the 28. Tried to ask him he was doing tradeskills and wearing TS clothers, no reply.

So yeap some form of gear check is necessary.

No, my zerker with full thurgadin and an instance breastplate, having chosen all +hp char traits and adorned will be right at 28k with 130critmit.   Sounds like you are used to raid geared tanks.

Everyone says thurgadin is enough to do those zones, I suppose with a completely correctly stacked group maybe. 

[Freejazzlive]

Naychan@Guk wrote:

Rift's DF is by far the best system out there

I guess they fixed it then, because when I last played, it wasn't working well, & players complained a great deal about it. Kudos to Trion ... it's nice to see they finally got something right.