Paladin Feedback Thread

[Fyang]

I decided betray to SK until they fix this class.

I tested on test server today, totally same gear, sk can do 30% dps more than pal then got more useful tools to face massive AEs. so What reason should I be a pal?

[Cyrdemac]

Beiju@Mistmoore wrote:

I decided betray to SK until they fix this class.

I tested on test server today, totally same gear, sk can do 30% dps more than pal then got more useful tools to face massive AEs. so What reason should I be a pal?

Because you would have amends to counter memwiping mobs and heals to counter one-hitting red-messages?

Seriously, to stay a Paladin right now is hard, but if you want them changed, you will keep them and won't switch to the next flavor class, SOE is offering.

[Fyang]

Cyrdemac wrote:

Beiju@Mistmoore wrote:

I decided betray to SK until they fix this class.

I tested on test server today, totally same gear, sk can do 30% dps more than pal then got more useful tools to face massive AEs. so What reason should I be a pal?

Because you would have amends to counter memwiping mobs and heals to counter one-hitting red-messages?

Seriously, to stay a Paladin right now is hard, but if you want them changed, you will keep them and won't switch to the next flavor class, SOE is offering.

If WE want them change, WE should all betray to SK, then they will know that Pal Really needs some love.

[Anurra]

Cyrdemac wrote:

Beiju@Mistmoore wrote:

I decided betray to SK until they fix this class.

I tested on test server today, totally same gear, sk can do 30% dps more than pal then got more useful tools to face massive AEs. so What reason should I be a pal?

Because you would have amends to counter memwiping mobs and heals to counter one-hitting red-messages?

Seriously, to stay a Paladin right now is hard, but if you want them changed, you will keep them and won't switch to the next flavor class, SOE is offering.

For those who have missed Beiju's sarcasm:

1. Amends doesn't do anything for mem-wiping mobs.

2. Heals are worthless in raids.

[Maergoth]

Lawrs@Permafrost wrote:

Cyrdemac wrote:

Beiju@Mistmoore wrote:

I decided betray to SK until they fix this class.

I tested on test server today, totally same gear, sk can do 30% dps more than pal then got more useful tools to face massive AEs. so What reason should I be a pal?

Because you would have amends to counter memwiping mobs and heals to counter one-hitting red-messages?

Seriously, to stay a Paladin right now is hard, but if you want them changed, you will keep them and won't switch to the next flavor class, SOE is offering.

For those who have missed Beiju's sarcasm:

1. Amends doesn't do anything for mem-wiping mobs.

2. Heals are worthless in raids.

QFE

[Cyrdemac]

It's my Sarcasm actually

[Sterlin]

I think three changes to Pally could make them great.

1. Holy Ground - Give it positionals per hit like the Guardian ability Reinforce (or make this available through a red adorn for those that don't want it.)

2.  Demonstration of Faith - Make it self only, 45 second recast, at the 5th level of AA give it a 3 hit stoneskin, and then begin the rune portion after those 3 hits expired.

3.  Make Stonewall immune to strikethrough.

[AziBam]

Sterlin wrote:

1. Holy Ground - Give it positionals per hit like the Guardian ability Reinforce (or make this available through a red adorn for those that don't want it.)

Don't forget the range.  I'm working from memory but I think it's a 10m radius.  Way to small.

[Costa]

If it was just a straight up positional hate increase per hit the range could be removed. It also wouldn't make the ability OP like it was when it was a 24 position hate increase as it would match that of the Guardian, although they would possibly need to adjust the re-use, i have no clue what the guardians re-use is on their's?

[Controlor]

Sterlin wrote:

I think three changes to Pally could make them great.

1. Holy Ground - Give it positionals per hit like the Guardian ability Reinforce (or make this available through a red adorn for those that don't want it.)

2.  Demonstration of Faith - Make it self only, 45 second recast, at the 5th level of AA give it a 3 hit stoneskin, and then begin the rune portion after those 3 hits expired.

3.  Make Stonewall immune to strikethrough.

1 - I am on the side that wants either the hate posiions removed from HG or just put it at 3 - 5 hate positions off the initial hit, and leave it as a dps tool. As dropping that dps tool will hurt our dps considerably. 

2 - 45 seconds would be too fast of a recast (unless you are refering to it as 90s base 45 cap). The recast it has right now is fine. However i wouldnt mind that the "+20%" aa boost to it (which we all know is only +6-7%) would instead cost 5 points and be a 1 hit magic stoneskin. The restriction to magic based would still help a lot with 1 shotting aoes but not all 1 shotting aoes is magic based (many of the 1 shot tank killers are physical based anyways) so wouldnt be too op. It would also not really break heroic as the 1 hit stoneskin would not be too noticible soloing and the loss of the actual 6 - 7% extra heal would not be noticible.

3 - That needs to happen for all fighter 100% avoid abilities regardless. It is a long missed mechanic that needs changing.

[Soul_Dreamer]

Costa@Nagafen wrote:

If it was just a straight up positional hate increase per hit the range could be removed. It also wouldn't make the ability OP like it was when it was a 24 position hate increase as it would match that of the Guardian, although they would possibly need to adjust the re-use, i have no clue what the guardians re-use is on their's?

3 min base, most Guards have it around the 1 min 30 though, or very close to it. Reinforcement does no damage and only procs off Melee hits and I think it procs off taunts now as well. 

One thing you'd need to consider in the recast is Guardians only have a maximum of 2 AOE's to proc it with, 1 being from AA's. The recast of Grave Sacrament (SK) is 3 mins and is very very similar to Holy Ground.

I think you need another snap, but I do think 1 hate position per CA or Spell  every 45 seconds or so (recast mods from 1 min 30 base recast on Holy ground) for 13 seconds is asking a bit much, especially when you consider youhave triple the number of AOE's compared to the Guardian. You'd be able to have it up for every round of adds as long as the spawn time is around the 45-50 second mark. 3 min to match the  Guardian/SK recasty would be fine I think, you would then need to tag on the +Hate positions to the SK ability though.

I would like to see SK's and Paladins have a ~20% HP ward, that you fill with your heals/lifetaps. Basically any heals or life taps that don't actually heal you, overflow into this ward. Means you can Heal/Tap to fill it before these AOE's to take the edge off. Throw on a decent magical Stoneskin or something onto your ward and I think it would be gtg?

I only have a Pally Alt who I solo and mess about on, he's never seen a raid zone so while I can't comment first hand, I have raided for 5 years as a Guardian with the same OT SK, and we had a Pally for 3 years.

Strike through needs to be added to all abilities

[ChaoticDecree]

I just recently started reading these boards again and I read through this entire thread to see what all the other Paladins think of our situation.  I've had some good laughs at the sarcasm here, and a few of the trolls that tried to derail the otherwise great thread.  It's quite obvious that we have a couple of serious issues.  It's also quite obvious there are only a handful of people that play this class in challenge mode raiding.  I'd like to sign my name on this petition and be added to the few names that are still weathering out the storm.

As the current state of our class has been pretty much beaten to death for 25 pages I don't have anything significantly new to add.  There are a lot of good suggestions already posted here and Boli and Maergoth have some great write ups about the finer details of our issues along with good, balanced suggestions.  Many good contributions have been made by others as well.

If I could be so bold as to summarize our issues (for the 100th time) it would break down to two main things.

1. Spike damage and unavoidable deaths.
2. Snap aggro after mem wipes or deaths.  (See issue #1)

All the other discussions about hate generation, Amends, DPS, and the comparisons to other tank classes are all pretty much meaningless.  Paladins are not able to consistently stand up to the current challenge mode raid content without significant help from other classes.  Paladins are lacking a couple of tools to adequately perform our primary job on raids - defensive tanking (MT or primary OT).  I truly hope our concerns are not lost to the developers because of the sheer volume of other discussion in this thread.

A serious overhaul of Paladin direct heals would be a huge step in the right direction for helping the spike damage.  There are some good posts here about making heals reactive or ward etc. so they're not wasted and actually become a part of the rotation.  Another skill should be changed to become a stoneskin type ability.  Arch Heal would be a great candidate since it's a completely useless endline ability now.  Maybe changing Devout Sacrament would work as well.

As for snap aggro the best thing to do would be to completely change an ability to increase positional threat.  There have been a lot of suggestions involving Holy Ground etc. but I don't think "fixing" that ability would fix our issue.  Taking one positional and making it better wouldn't help nearly as much as adding another tool to the arsenal since that's what we're really lacking; tools to do our job.

Well that's the end of my rambling for now.  Hopefully these posts are being read by the development team and we won't have to wait several months to see changes.

[Soul_Dreamer]

I know I'm probably not welcome in chatting here but ahh well

Unfortunately I don't think the EQ2 devs have the resources anymore to dedicate time to doing a large rework of class abilities (Paladin heals and the like). A large portion of the tank community are in agreement for once though, some changes do need to happen and they need to happen relatively quickly. Tanking in general just isn't fun anymore due to current mechanics, memwipes/co-op strike, stunes, no benefitial, no offesive, killer AOE's etc abilities are tagged onto so many named now it makes our jobs that much harder, and frankly some tanks don't have the tools to deal with the abundance of these effects.

At the very least, tanks need the following to get some sort of balance...

Paladin - A stone skin/defensive ability to defend against large AOE's, another snap/rework of Holy Ground.Zerker - Rework of easily capped buffs (Berzerk especially), a defensive ability to defend against large AOE's.SK - Slight increase in defensive ability, another Snap/Reduction in recast of Graves.ALL defensive abilities to have "Strikethrough immunity" added.Brawlers to have strikethrough immunity removed form defensive stance (even a lot of Brawlers agree on this!!)A reduction in strike through/debuffs put in game to combat it.Besides the odd few people most tanks are crying out for the same things, especialy raiding tanks. Tanks don't need tons more DPS, they don't need a lot more utility garbage, they just need the tools to do their jobs.

IF, and it's a big IF, SOE want 4 or so tanks in a raid to be the norm then other changes will be needed to up DPS while not tanking or to add raid viable utilty. Before that's even thought about though there are 3 tank classes out of 6 really struggling and frankly they need changes.

Again, sorry I'm posting in this Paladin thread to those who don't want me here. I'm posting here for the same reason I'm posting in other "Tank Balance/Issues" threads, fighter mechanics need some tweaks, and some fighters especially need more tweaks than others.

[Maergoth]

You're welcome here, it's np.

The only thing I disagree with is the fact that tanks don't need more utility.

I don't think we should take utility away from other utility classes.. dps buffs and such should primarily be theirs. However, there are a lot of utility options that haven't been properly explored. Recapture is great, but stuff like combat mastery should be bard / chanter territory. Moar tank-oriented utility would be wonderful.

Most raids roll with 3 tanks, but most fights require 2. To be useful during those fights is an important part of keeping offtanks happy.

Everything else.. 100 times yes. LC being on a faster recast helps substantially, but there are still a ton of times I'll die with saves running. There's no reason the most unreliable of saves are reserved for a tertiary tank, who will only need to use them in already dire situations.

I can't even use amends on HM Sullon because the passive hate on the named prevents me from using my ONLY unique snap. This situation is becoming more and more frequent. Thanks co-op.

ADDITIONALLY. I never put much thought into the itemization counter to our class.

CAST SPEED, The COMPLETE removal of cast speed from fighter gear is asinine. Seriously. SERIOUSLY. WHY? I don't even need to go into this, it's blatantly dumb. I'm using my old SF boots almost full time because they have 12 cast speed. 

SHIELDS, primarily are the culprit. We've been hailed as shield oriented tanks, hence our block chance. However, as shields upgrade, they only gain block chance, not protection. This means our slight advantage is diminished less and less as other tanks get more and more along with us. If we had 100 shield effectiveness, and someone else has 50, our advantage is reduced by half by us getting to 150 and other tanks being at 100.

ADORNS, I saw an adorn today that was so contrary to our class it was absurd. There is a war rune that dropped from hardmode Sullon that had a 50% chance on death to prevent death, with a 10 minute cooldown. This works best for classes that don't have a maintained DI, because it also has a chance to be wasted along with other DI triggers. The same problem was mentioned with Hand of Death when it was put in the game. Why reinvent the problem?

[Boli32]

Blocking as being a "pally thing" has been made uselsss when they made +defence and +parry useless in raids; which I think happened in late DoF or KoS before we even got the increased block chance.

And crusaders; if they cast long cast spells; should have cast speed itemised; this has been an ongoing issue for a long time... anyone else remember the 2s judgement and 3s refusal?... we used to do more dps *not* casting them.

I'm waiting for eq3 tbh (or even eq2 NGE); there is so much fundamentally wrong with the mechanics with this game;  and pallys in general right now that I cannot see any improvement without a serious overhaul.

[Loxus]

That's really the heart of the problem. The fundamental combat mechanics that this game was designed upon are critically flawed and have been since launch.  GU13 tried to patch/fix the symptoms of it, but it really can't unless they rewrite/redisign combat completely.  In which, case you might as well write a new game.

[Celestial Knight]

Walden@Antonia Bayle wrote:

If I could be so bold as to summarize our issues (for the 100th time) it would break down to two main things.

1. Spike damage and unavoidable deaths.
2. Snap aggro after mem wipes or deaths.  (See issue #1)

All the other discussions about hate generation, Amends, DPS, and the comparisons to other tank classes are all pretty much meaningless.  Paladins are not able to consistently stand up to the current challenge mode raid content without significant help from other classes.  Paladins are lacking a couple of tools to adequately perform our primary job on raids - defensive tanking (MT or primary OT).  I truly hope our concerns are not lost to the developers because of the sheer volume of other discussion in this thread.

A serious overhaul of Paladin direct heals would be a huge step in the right direction for helping the spike damage.  There are some good posts here about making heals reactive or ward etc. so they're not wasted and actually become a part of the rotation.  Another skill should be changed to become a stoneskin type ability.  Arch Heal would be a great candidate since it's a completely useless endline ability now.  Maybe changing Devout Sacrament would work as well.

As for snap aggro the best thing to do would be to completely change an ability to increase positional threat.  There have been a lot of suggestions involving Holy Ground etc. but I don't think "fixing" that ability would fix our issue.  Taking one positional and making it better wouldn't help nearly as much as adding another tool to the arsenal since that's what we're really lacking; tools to do our job.

Well that's the end of my rambling for now.  Hopefully these posts are being read by the development team and we won't have to wait several months to see changes.

I aggree 100%

I think the Paladin's have come a long way since I started playing one in 2005 and I agree with your assessment that we are lacking necessary tools to adequately perform our duties as MT.  I feel like we are possibly one tool away from fulfilling that role.

What that tool needs to be has been highly debated in this thread, but if I had to pick one I would definitely go with a tool that provides snap aggro during mem wipes.

 

 

 

Live the legend of Tunaria...

www.aoot.guildlaunch.com

[tsunewolf]

A stoneskin on a 1 minute recast would drastically change the class way more than another snap. We need to be able to survive first before worrying about hate.

[Maergoth]

Getting into seriously harder raid content lately, with hardmode Sullon, Generals, Lichlord and beyond. Our problems just spiral endlessly out of control.

There isn't a second of my time where I feel in control of my situation. I'm either relying on a lucky ire proc, another tank to cover me for as many AOEs as possible (Which, they should just be tanking realistically), or an add skip.

And now mobs have a new trick. They spawn with aggro locked onto the primary mob's target. To get them off, you HAVE to snap them. There's no alternative. Add memwipes and co-op to the mix, and you've got a horrible mess every single add spawn. Snap the mob, it memwipes off of you. Don't snap the mob, you risk the tank getting co-opped. Hope it memwipes before co-op gets applied, someone else dies because they're trying to dps the time-restricted add before the second memwipe or ridiculous AOE goes off.

I like that feeling though. The feeling of constantly being stretched too thin, and perfect utilization of all your abilities to succeed. Except, perfect utilization doesn't allow for Paladin success, and other tanks just laugh at our inability to do the simplest of tasks for them.

3 tank fights become 4 tank fights, if one of those 3 is a Paladin. So you have to drop a healer or DPS, which significantly reduces over-all effectiveness to coddle a broken class that shouldn't even be allowed to raid.

Emo aside, funny story. I was doing Byzola on the lich lord ring event, and because of having to use amends and our only unique snap being an AOE, I couldn't even hit the named for fear of aggro (This problem is amplified by memwipes btw, in case this is an oversight). Our wizard was complaining about the fear damage shield to me in tells, and I replied that not only am I fear immune, but I can't even hit the mob so I'm not even using it.

ULTRA FUN BIT OF IRONY: My fearless being useless because all I can do is stand there and wait for adds.

So yeah... the bumpy road gets bumpier. More to come.

[Fyang]

Snap issue is a problem for both crusaders specially while mobs moving.

[Soul_Dreamer]

Against@Nagafen wrote:

A stoneskin on a 1 minute recast would drastically change the class way more than another snap. We need to be able to survive first before worrying about hate.

Both are needed is the problem.My personal opinion.Demonstration of Faith - Increase to a 25k ward but make it magic damage only to help with AOE's, this won't really effect Heroic or solo at all since almost all damage is Melee there.Divine Aura - Will Absorb all damage when the amount is greater than 40% of the targets maximum health. Just because this ability is epically stupid and isn't even really a save with it LESS than 50% of HP. Also gives SK's a little help.Blocking Mastery - Change to a combat art, 2 min recast.

• "Will absorb all damage when the amount is greater than 10% of targets HP, Will absorb 2 attacks" 10 seconds duration.
• Increases casters chance to block by 30%, 1 min duration.

Faithful Cry - Add the below to the list of effects

• Increases threat priority by 2 positions.
• Has a 50% chance to increase threat priorty by 1 position every 4 seconds.

Greater ability to deal with spikes with the addition of 2 saves, and the ward. A mini snap to help with snap agro. Realistically I think that will do wonders for Paladins and they aren't major changes to healing mechanics etc or an overhaul of lots of abilities.

[tsunewolf]

I'd rather they get rid of a USELESS AA LIKE ARCH HEAL and CHANGE IT TO A STONESKIN.

[Soul_Dreamer]

Against@Nagafen wrote:

I'd rather they get rid of a USELESS AA LIKE ARCH HEAL and CHANGE IT TO A STONESKIN.

That AA is at the bottom of the healing line is the problem. Instead of replacing it with a stoneskin, if you changed the AA to:On a Healing spell cast:10% damage reduction on traget of spell cast, duration 5 seconds. This way all Paladin heals and wards also reduce their inc damage by 10%, also adds utility to the group heal where the group will get a 10% damage reduction, plus it fits with the line and benefits all aspects of play equally be it solo/group/raid.The blocking mastery change isn't really a loss, a 2 min recast ability you can easily get down to 1 min 30 just with recast amounts on gear (30% block 66% of the time assuming 1:30 recast = ~20% block chance over all). With it at 30% this is relatively equal to 24% constant, especially with the addition of the 2 charge stoneskin and the fact that the 30% block chance will be there when you need it (near the spike you're trying to prevent).

[tsunewolf]

It's no longer at the bottom of the healing line, just another endline now.

EDIT: that aa as described is too powerful, our group heal is 6 second recast so it'd basically be up all the time for group.

[tsunewolf]

What if they changed our AA's in the Paladin tree to convert our heals into wards? Kinda like how wardens can turn spells into melee attacks... just food for thought as it would scale w/ all lv's of difficulty and help us alot more than heals in a raid setting.

[Fyang]

Against@Nagafen wrote:

What if they changed our AA's in the Paladin tree to convert our heals into wards? Kinda like how wardens can turn spells into melee attacks... just food for thought as it would scale w/ all lv's of difficulty and help us alot more than heals in a raid setting.

Still not enough when aoe hit more than 120k in drunder zone.

[Maergoth]

There are tons of creative fixes to our problem, but what it boils down to is this:

We need another reliable short recast save.

We need more snap aggro.

Coming up with solutions isn't going to make them acknowledge the problem, which is the first step in getting it solved.

Also, make Virulent Ire a toggled buff or something, so we can at least click it off when we don't use it.  Switching bows is incredibly dumb.

[Soul_Dreamer]

Fyang@Unrest_old wrote:

Against@Nagafen wrote:

What if they changed our AA's in the Paladin tree to convert our heals into wards? Kinda like how wardens can turn spells into melee attacks... just food for thought as it would scale w/ all lv's of difficulty and help us alot more than heals in a raid setting.

Still not enough when aoe hit more than 120k in drunder zone.

+1, standard wards won't help, they would have to be very large to act as a save in Raid content which would effect heroic and solo. 

The only ways a ward would cut it and be balanced would be:1. To have it around the 50k mark and have it very short duration, like 3-5 seconds, with a 1 min 30 recast. This is then essentially mimicking a stoneskin because of the high damage absorption over a short period. It would also need to be instant cast though or at the very least uninteruptable.2. 50k Magic damage only with a decent duration and similar recast to 1.

@Maergoth, even though I've not seen a red name here I can't believe SOE think everything is fine the way it currently is, more than likely it's just very poor communication, or they simply don't have the resources to do anything much about it so aren't making promises they can't keep.

[Bruener]

Its a lack of resources while trying to push out Beastlords and new Features.

Believe me, the Devs know that Crusaders need some tweaks...and at the same time they know Brawlers need some other kinds of tweaks.

But Beastlords first.

[Maergoth]

K.

Beastlords are done.

I'm not buying the expansion until they address our class issues.

Take that, SOE.