Dungeon Finder and PvP Servers (please read!)

[SmokeJumper]

Hi, folks,

I'm making a post about Dungeon Finder outside of the regular DF feedback thread because we want direct feedback about this specific area of implementation.

If you're a player on a PvP server (Nagafen or Vox), we'd really appreciate hearing from you specifically!

That being said, here's what we're planning:

• PvP servers are normally divided into three factions. DF requires population to work well. If those factions can't group together within DF, then DF is likely to be a lot less useful on Nagafen and Vox.
• So...when using DF, players can be matched together into a dungeon, regardless of faction (like in Battlegrounds).
• While players are inside a DF instance, they are *not* able to PvP against each other.
• As soon as you leave the DF instance, you automatically leave your DF group and all normal PvP rules take effect. (So don't leave a DF instance by the door if you don't trust your groupmates or if you want to stay part of that group.)

Thoughts?

(Edited with the changes about leaving a DF instance on 10/3.)

[Mythal_EQ2]

What if you're kicked from the group? Might want to add a 30 second (or maybe 1 minute, given load times) immunity so people can actually get to safety in such a case.

[SmokeJumper]

Daervon@Guk wrote:

What if you're kicked from the group? Might want to add a 30 second (or maybe 1 minute, given load times) immunity so people can actually get to safety in such a case.

You can only "vote to kick" a player while in a DF instance.

If you are successfully voted out of a group, the kicked player is warped to outside the instance, so they can't attack you until they also leave the instance.

Of course, voluntarily leaving the group is a different story. For that, you're on your own.

[Talathion]

Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Maybe you should award discord tokens for a successful instance so these people will actually PVE together instead of kicking someone out and getting easy fame.

If I was on a PvP server, I would just wait outside zones and camp players leaving instances, since I would be wearing PVP gear and PVE gear is useless in PVP, it would be an easy kill.

Of course, this would all be solved by merging PVP/PVE Stats like it was before.

[SmokeJumper]

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Maybe you should award discord tokens for a successful instance so these people will actually PVE together instead of kicking someone out and getting easy fame.

If I was on a PvP server, I would just wait outside zones and camp players leaving instances, since I would be wearing PVP gear and PVE gear is useless in PVP, it would be an easy kill.

Of course, this would all be solved by merging PVP/PVE Stats like it was before.

There may be a misunderstanding here.

When players leave a DF instance, they are not flagged as doing PvE content. Therefore, their PvP gear will be fully effective at that time. They will not be easy targets...unless you specifically coordinate an ambush with folks within the instance.

Essentially, DF is only a temporary truce, it's not an armistice.

[SmokeJumper]

It's also true that you don't *have* to exit through the door.

You could druid/wizard portal out, or call to guild hall/house, and avoid the dungeon exit entirely, if you so desire.

[Muusic]

Please tell me that we will be able to group with players from blue servers who don't bank their plat.... dropping group would be so profitable.

I was once told by a GM that the reason a player was allowed to repeatedly grief someone 9 levels lower while they were doin a quest is because " The essence of a PVP server is to strategically control resources thereby strengthening you alignment and preventing the development of the opposite alignment".

Now we're supposed to have a temporary truce with the enemy for shards and gear? Granted it is elective but still goes against what SOE defined PVP as since the beginning.

[Talathion]

SmokeJumper wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Maybe you should award discord tokens for a successful instance so these people will actually PVE together instead of kicking someone out and getting easy fame.

If I was on a PvP server, I would just wait outside zones and camp players leaving instances, since I would be wearing PVP gear and PVE gear is useless in PVP, it would be an easy kill.

Of course, this would all be solved by merging PVP/PVE Stats like it was before.

There may be a misunderstanding here.

When players leave a DF instance, they are not flagged as doing PvE content. Therefore, their PvP gear will be fully effective at that time. They will not be easy targets...unless you specifically coordinate an ambush with folks within the instance.

Essentially, DF is only a temporary truce, it's not an armistice.

What makes you think I wouldn't do that?

In SWG we had cloning centers that worked the same way, when we wanted to Ambush a town we set it up so they had to clone in one place and killed them over/over.

Of course it was hard because PVP/PVE Gear in SWG was exactly the same, each stat worked.

Oh? and you think I would give them a chance to switch to there PVP gear while zoning out?  No.

Of course, I don't play PVP.

[Silzin]

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Oh? and you think I would give them a chance to switch to there PVP gear while zoning out?  No.

What makes you think they will not switch there gear back over before leaving or zoning out?

@SJ  from what i am understanding a group in this way could have 2 or even 3 factions of ppl in it and be able to work together on open zones.  but any one person will not be able to attack ppl on their own faction just other factions and not ppl in there group, Right?  what if someone else starts a fight with someone from My faction (I dont PvP) then i assist my group member will that let me PvP agenized my faction person since he is already in PvP combat with my group?

 

[Chakos]

Muusic@Venekor wrote:

Please tell me that we will be able to group with players from blue servers who don't bank their plat.... dropping group would be so profitable.

You misunderstand how DF works -- it is NOT cross server, it operates within each individual server. So no being able to group with players from blue servers, period.

[SmokeJumper]

Silzin@Crushbone wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Oh? and you think I would give them a chance to switch to there PVP gear while zoning out?  No.

What makes you think they will not switch there gear back over before leaving or zoning out?

@SJ  from what i am understanding a group in this way could have 2 or even 3 factions of ppl in it and be able to work together on open zones.  but any one person will not be able to attack ppl on their own faction just other factions and not ppl in there group, Right?  what if someone else starts a fight with someone from My faction (I dont PvP) then i assist my group member will that let me PvP agenized my faction person since he is already in PvP combat with my group?

You won't be able to harm someone in your own faction, even if you are assisting someone that is attacking your fellow faction member.

[SmokeJumper]

Chakos wrote:

Muusic@Venekor wrote:

Please tell me that we will be able to group with players from blue servers who don't bank their plat.... dropping group would be so profitable.

You misunderstand how DF works -- it is NOT cross server, it operates within each individual server. So no being able to group with players from blue servers, period.

Correct. For now. We'll deal with cross-server issues another day when we get to that implementation.

[SmokeJumper]

By the way, we're enabling Test-Copy with PvP now so that you can test this out, if you're so inclined.

[Rotate]

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

SmokeJumper wrote:

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Maybe you should award discord tokens for a successful instance so these people will actually PVE together instead of kicking someone out and getting easy fame.

If I was on a PvP server, I would just wait outside zones and camp players leaving instances, since I would be wearing PVP gear and PVE gear is useless in PVP, it would be an easy kill.

Of course, this would all be solved by merging PVP/PVE Stats like it was before.

There may be a misunderstanding here.

When players leave a DF instance, they are not flagged as doing PvE content. Therefore, their PvP gear will be fully effective at that time. They will not be easy targets...unless you specifically coordinate an ambush with folks within the instance.

Essentially, DF is only a temporary truce, it's not an armistice.

What makes you think I wouldn't do that?

In SWG we had cloning centers that worked the same way, when we wanted to Ambush a town we set it up so they had to clone in one place and killed them over/over.

Of course it was hard because PVP/PVE Gear in SWG was exactly the same, each stat worked.

Oh? and you think I would give them a chance to switch to there PVP gear while zoning out?  No.

Of course, I don't play PVP.

When ever you zone on a pvp sever you have imnuity from attacks for a period of time.  Waiting outside of zone ins wont get you many kills unless you can 1 shot people before they go into the zone =p..  You wont get them coming out unless they are afk and get booted out lols.  Try a pvp sever sometimes then make coments on stuff that aplies to pvp severs.

If this works as smokejumper implies it should be great for pvp severs finaly being able to group with entire sever for isntances.  And make new people find instance groups easier.  I don't ever play on test but look forward to this coming to live severs!

[FreaklyCreak]

This thread hasn't gotten allot of feedback so I'll tell you what the people in my guild have been saying.-You need to do either of these three options in order to keep exploitable PVP situations  1. Disable PVP in all instanced content  2. Anyone who leaves a group should be teleported out of the zone and unable to enter that instance for 5 mins.  3. Anyone who leaves a group should get 1 minute immunity time.Why? I can see people maliciously dropping group on a named fight and slaughtering the group for a near full writ of targets.

[Rotate]

Celos@Nagafen wrote:

This thread hasn't gotten allot of feedback so I'll tell you what the people in my guild have been saying.-You need to do either of these three options in order to keep exploitable PVP situations  1. Disable PVP in all instanced content  2. Anyone who leaves a group should be teleported out of the zone and unable to enter that instance for 5 mins.  3. Anyone who leaves a group should get 1 minute immunity time.Why? I can see people maliciously dropping group on a named fight and slaughtering the group for a near full writ of targets.

I agree with number 2! That should solve the problem of one person leaving the group to try and killl people in the group!

[SmokeJumper]

After listening to feedback, we're going to make the following changes to make things more sane for PvPers using the DF system:

• From now on, your group leader will be able to re-queue the group for a new DF without leaving the DF dungeon instance. (No need to exit the zone.)
• From now on, when a PvP-server group leaves a DF instance, they will immediately disband and can start destroying each other. (So don't leave the dungeon via the door if that concerns you!)

This should take care of every issue we've heard of on PvP servers.

I will modify the initial post in this thread to accomodate these changes.

[alabama]

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Sounds like trouble waiting to happen.

Maybe you should award discord tokens for a successful instance so these people will actually PVE together instead of kicking someone out and getting easy fame.

If I was on a PvP server, I would just wait outside zones and camp players leaving instances, since I would be wearing PVP gear and PVE gear is useless in PVP, it would be an easy kill

way to really think things through devster

an ambush put together by people in the group against another group memeber would be easily done. (yo, we got blah blah blah in here. form up out front ill boot him when your close).

that sad part is this tool understand pvp better then our lead dev...l m a o priceless

[Crismorn]

Whew!  Thank god you saved us from pvping each other on a pvp server.

[Crismorn]

I really dont understand how pvp is considered to be some evil and treacherous deed on a pvp server, its pretty sad.

[asaron]

lol the df is barely used on nagafen   at 90  at most  shard of love pops  which is a laugh in its own    its used mostly as a cowardice tool  group forms in faction then ques up for the  they are going to to use the instant teleport which is a absurdly worthless tool on pvp as it alienates moe players from the pvpers            yet another tool to instantly travel and avoid the world

[draxhellion]

SmokeJumper wrote:

Hi, folks,

I'm making a post about Dungeon Finder outside of the regular DF feedback thread because we want direct feedback about this specific area of implementation.

If you're a player on a PvP server (Nagafen or Vox), we'd really appreciate hearing from you specifically!

That being said, here's what we're planning:

• PvP servers are normally divided into three factions. DF requires population to work well. If those factions can't group together within DF, then DF is likely to be a lot less useful on Nagafen and Vox.
• So...when using DF, players can be matched together into a dungeon, regardless of faction (like in Battlegrounds).
• While players are inside a DF instance, they are *not* able to PvP against each other.
• As soon as you leave the DF instance, you automatically leave your DF group and all normal PvP rules take effect. (So don't leave a DF instance by the door if you don't trust your groupmates or if you want to stay part of that group.)

Thoughts?

(Edited with the changes about leaving a DF instance on 10/3.)

DF shouldnt be allowed on PvP servers plain and simple its just going to turn vets and old schoolers away. But i am sure you dont care about that.

[Geekyone]

DF in Rift works exceptionally well, because they allow server to server grouping.  Go play that game for a day use the dungeon finder tool and you'll see how easy and much better it is.

You're not only worrying about population on the PVP servers you should be worrying about it on all servers...allowing cross server use of DF to fill groups is an easy fix.

[Freejazzlive]

Geekyone wrote:

DF in Rift works exceptionally well

It's nice to know that something about Rift does.

As for the thread, I agree with Crismorn.