Everquest is Dying...

[Gisallo]

Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Yeah SOE and EQ2 are doing so [Removed for Content] well that

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/31/s...els-the-agency/

"As part of a strategic decision to reduce costs and streamline its global workforce, SOE announced today that it will eliminate 205 positions and close its Denver, Seattle and Tucson studios. As part of this restructuring, SOE is discontinuing production of The Agency so it can focus development resources on delivering two new MMOs based on its renowned PlanetSide and EverQuest properties, while also maintaining its current portfolio of online games. All possible steps are being taken to ensure team members affected by the transition are treated with appropriate concern."

In FY 2010 they lost over 83 BILLION Yen in their Networked Products and services division (where Sony Computer Entertainnment [where SOE now is] is structured).  They made a little over 35 billion in FY 2011 (which ended in March) BUT this was largely due to (at the time of the report 83 Yen = 1 US dollar.  So that was an 1 billion dollar loss for 2010).

"A category that favorably impacted the change in segment operating results

(excluding restructuring charges) was the game business, reflecting significant cost reductions of PlayStation®3

(“PS3”) hardware and higher unit sales of PS3 software. "

See any mention of PC games there?

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fin...r/10q4_sony.pdf 

They also stated that when they do come back to profitability it will be due to the sale of LCD TV's and semi-conductors.   Heck Thus far they are estimating a loss of almost 200 million dollars as a direct result of the PSN/SOE security breech.  Do you think this is becaus people did not leave and are NOT coming back anytime soon?  Yeah there has been a bump due to the 45 day free thing, but even that hasn't changed the rather bleak forecasts.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/...-net-loss/12900

If you lay off that many employees, cancel one project and consolidate into 2 this is NOT a good thing.  Keeping EQ2 alive serves one logical business purpose and only one at this point.  It keeps the IP active so that if/when they get EQNext up and running they still have a customer base.

Listen I LOVE EQ2.  I LOVE Norrath.  I love the friends I made there, I love the raiding I did there, the best on line gaming experiences I ever had happened in EQ2 and I have played MMO's Since 1997 when UO launched.  This doesn't mean that I can just ignore the hard reality that this game is dying.  It's not flatlined, it's not even bleeding out, but it is suffering a lingering death at this point due to poor business decisions over the last year or two that followed on the heels of a benign neglect from corporate that started just before Gallinite left and was then greatly accelerated by the hacking. 

This isn't an attack, it happens to all games eventually.  That is why EQNext is in developement. For EQNext to be successful they need to keep the franchise in people's minds and for this they have to keep the game going, even if the population shrinks. 

So your logic is that EQ2 should be keeping all of Sony or even just SoE afloat after considerable mistakes made by other departments and teams out of their control to be considered successful? That's insane. If you take the extremely rare scenario of WoW success out of the MMO equation, EQ2 is doing very well.

Sometimes these arm chair MMO business analysts remind me of that movie Talledega Nights. "If you're not first, you're last." Yeah it doesn't work that way at all, from any angle. 100% wrong.

No I posted the COMPLETE financials for a reason.  It should NOT keep Sony in it's entireity up BUT it is the only darn thing really keeping SOE up.  The EQ franchise is SOE's Prime money maker.  They are projecting further loses in that segment even with the elimination of the real dogs (SWG, The agency developement, the lay offs etc).  That means EQ is also losing money.  I actually own Stock in Sony and not as part of one of my Mutual funds, it's one of 2 companies I made direct stock purchases of so I pay attention because I want to know what is happening with my money and why.  This has nothing to do with arm chair analysis.  Read all the info.  If you don't understand what some of it means feel free to ask. 

The truth about these games is in the numbers and the history.  If the game was healthy they would not have had to do alternative revenue streams.  If the game was staying the same or growing they would not have had to do the server mergers.  If the game was doing well or making money after eliminating excess expenses from SOE, SOE would not still be looking at a financial loss, especailly the huge losses they took last year.  Since subs= money if you make a lot less money that =less subs.  That is whay I put all this information there for you to look at if you wanted to bother.  If you want to try and actually challenge or debate the numbers fine.  if you just want to go on some sort of stump speech filled with jingoism and pithy sayings without facts, please leave me out of it.

[Gisallo]

Morrias@Antonia Bayle wrote:

In the process of fixing something, doesn't mean they're going to fix it, you saw how well Brenlo and his Golden Path worked.

Oh, and SJ is no Scott Hartsman for the record, T7 was when this game was at it's best. The mess Brenlo and Froech made has been cleaned up, now SJ's cleaning up his own mess.

Yeah hartsman never listened.  That is why he is the ONLY EQ2 Producer I can remember that when he left people actually missed him.  The others left without a blip OR there was a banafide cheer.

As for Rick Astleys, umm they did do a study sometime back and they found most people didn't want them.  Most players A) were annoyed enough that 24 classes could not be balanced and adding a 25th seemed ridiculous and also B)they have the worst over all reputation of any EQ class because of their percieved OPness. 

They are being added now because they don't know what else to do.  They are losing players and are trying to keep a revenue stream in house to help fund EQNext.  EQ2 is now a means to an end, not an end in and of itself.

I am waiting patiently for EQNext.  I just hope they learned from DCUO and a few other things because when first mentioned Smedly said they were seriously considering making it a cross platform game.  Most of the people I know say that is a deal breaker for them.

[Crillus]

Hmmm, I'd have to disagree. I'm a newer player - well, to EQ2. I've been playing MMO's since EQ in 1999..

You know most of the time people just rush right on through quests and levels - rush, rush, rush.. I personally found that when taking the time to read the quests, not rush myself leveling and such - the lore comes alive and I actually have expoentially more fun.

But that's just a subjective opinion

[Crismorn]

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Morrias@Antonia Bayle wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Extended has the highest population per Smokejumper.  I want the entire game to grow because I care about and love this game.  I won't put my head in the sand and let it go down the drain all the time whining in the threads.  I encourage other players to get out there and bring folks in instead of whining about the lack of new players on Live.  Do something about it.  Be proactive.

What are more players going to do when they're draining out as fast as they're coming in? It's up to SoE to fix the content and and make under 90 enjoyable to new players. (The RAF bonus is counter productive for example)

They are in the process of fixing it.  Smokejumper is doing what no other Producer has done before:  listen to the player base.  He's putting in ideas that players have put forward for years.  Bringing in things folks have wanted like Beastlords.  He's attempting to make it easier to group up such as the cross-server Dungeon Finder.  SOE has a limited advertising budget connected to a fairly inept Public Relations and Marketing department.  While they will be doing a major advertising campaign near the time Qeynos and Neriak open up on the Extended side it's up to the players, like usual, to put the money where their mouths are and get out there and stump for the game.  Some of the gaming sites out there are openly hostile to EQ2 and gladly disseminate false information (or greatly out-dated) to the masses.  Our goal is to step in and correct that on the forums, social networking and YouTube sites.   Or we can continue to pretend the issue will go away on its own.

Listening to the playerbase is whats been ruining this game for years, oh wait you are talking about something that you read from an uninformed secondhand source, might I suggest sticking to topics where you actually know what happened in the future to avoid these siutations.

Same thing with Qeynos and Neriak, we might as well call them santa and ms clause as they will never exist, they would have been released within 20-30 days of freeport going live that was there only window for adding more servers to that new version of eq2, it will never happen now.

You are uninformed and might as well be spinning a wheel with various ideas stuck to it quoting them at will as it might have a chance at being factual unlike these current opinions about something you know nothing about.

[deadcrickets2]

Crismorn wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Morrias@Antonia Bayle wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Extended has the highest population per Smokejumper.  I want the entire game to grow because I care about and love this game.  I won't put my head in the sand and let it go down the drain all the time whining in the threads.  I encourage other players to get out there and bring folks in instead of whining about the lack of new players on Live.  Do something about it.  Be proactive.

What are more players going to do when they're draining out as fast as they're coming in? It's up to SoE to fix the content and and make under 90 enjoyable to new players. (The RAF bonus is counter productive for example)

They are in the process of fixing it.  Smokejumper is doing what no other Producer has done before:  listen to the player base.  He's putting in ideas that players have put forward for years.  Bringing in things folks have wanted like Beastlords.  He's attempting to make it easier to group up such as the cross-server Dungeon Finder.  SOE has a limited advertising budget connected to a fairly inept Public Relations and Marketing department.  While they will be doing a major advertising campaign near the time Qeynos and Neriak open up on the Extended side it's up to the players, like usual, to put the money where their mouths are and get out there and stump for the game.  Some of the gaming sites out there are openly hostile to EQ2 and gladly disseminate false information (or greatly out-dated) to the masses.  Our goal is to step in and correct that on the forums, social networking and YouTube sites.   Or we can continue to pretend the issue will go away on its own.

Listening to the playerbase is whats been ruining this game for years, oh wait you are talking about something that you read from an uninformed secondhand source, might I suggest sticking to topics where you actually know what happened in the future to avoid these siutations.

Same thing with Qeynos and Neriak, we might as well call them santa and ms clause as they will never exist, they would have been released within 20-30 days of freeport going live that was there only window for adding more servers to that new version of eq2, it will never happen now.

You are uninformed and might as well be spinning a wheel with various ideas stuck to it quoting them at will as it might have a chance at being factual unlike these current opinions about something you know nothing about.

It takes at least six months to find out if a service will be successful in this industry.  That is a known fact.  I'm sorry that you do not want to make an effort to bring players in.  And if you mean by second-hand information... Smokejumper... I'll gladly take his statements over yours.

[tafkaga]

Odowood@Oasis wrote:

I don't know why nor do I know how long but Everquest 2 is dying a slow death.

So many people play and just look for the quick fix to their boredom.. level this AA that... Nothing of Lore is ever spoken in my guild... (soulstrike-Splitpaw).

It is just how can I move up faster, get the raid gear needed and just speed-through everything.

I do lore.. I read and follow the stories of mobs I fight.  I do it because I want to learn and feel everquest... now I did play everquest since 1997 with a slow 1440 baud modem ...

Enjoy the game...

Every MMO starts to die beginning the day they launch.  If EQ2 is dying a "slow death" as you say, then sounds like we've got a long time yet to play! 

[FlamingDuck]

It's kinda depressing that EQ2X is completely seperate. Wouldn't it have been a much better idea for Live and EQ2x players to play on the same servers. Imagine how lively the populations would've been. Instead SOE went with a poorly done F2P model and unnecessarily divided the community. Oh well, probably too late now.

[darwich]

I do NOT want to play with F2P kids... face it most people that play f2p are kids... and that is EXACTLY why i left wow many times... the community is a BUNCH of kids... eq2 live is more adult players who MOST of them are mature, and not idiotic... if eq2 went total f2p it would be time for me to get a new game... period.

[deadcrickets2]

darwich wrote:

I do NOT want to play with F2P kids... face it most people that play f2p are kids... and that is EXACTLY why i left wow many times... the community is a BUNCH of kids... eq2 live is more adult players who MOST of them are mature, and not idiotic... if eq2 went total f2p it would be time for me to get a new game... period.

False statement.  Please at least check out the server before making false comments.  The vast majority are actually in their high 30s.  Which, by the way, is fairly much the average gamer age now.

[BMonkeeus]

So much BS being flung...good stuff, keep it coming!

[Nolrog]

deadcrickets2 wrote:

darwich wrote:

I do NOT want to play with F2P kids... face it most people that play f2p are kids... and that is EXACTLY why i left wow many times... the community is a BUNCH of kids... eq2 live is more adult players who MOST of them are mature, and not idiotic... if eq2 went total f2p it would be time for me to get a new game... period.

False statement.  Please at least check out the server before making false comments.  The vast majority are actually in their high 30s.  Which, by the way, is fairly much the average gamer age now.

I'm curious.  How do you know how old the vast majority of the EQ2X playerbase is?  I could see the argument that based on server chats and forum posts, the playerbase seems mature, but how would you know the actual ages? 

[Dragmar]

Odowood@Oasis wrote:

I don't know why nor do I know how long but Everquest 2 is dying a slow death.

So many people play and just look for the quick fix to their boredom.. level this AA that... Nothing of Lore is ever spoken in my guild... (soulstrike-Splitpaw).

It is just how can I move up faster, get the raid gear needed and just speed-through everything.

I do lore.. I read and follow the stories of mobs I fight.  I do it because I want to learn and feel everquest... now I did play everquest since 1997 with a slow 1440 baud modem ...

Enjoy the game...

This isnt true in my experience ,  since I have come back from extended to live the guild im in has some 20 plus members that came over from rift , raved about how nice the game was then canceled their rift account and stayed with eq2 . with the upcoming changes I would bet we see alot more but as far as people racing to the end game you will always have that , some people just like to raid .

[Dragmar]

Nolrog wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

darwich wrote:

I do NOT want to play with F2P kids... face it most people that play f2p are kids... and that is EXACTLY why i left wow many times... the community is a BUNCH of kids... eq2 live is more adult players who MOST of them are mature, and not idiotic... if eq2 went total f2p it would be time for me to get a new game... period.

False statement.  Please at least check out the server before making false comments.  The vast majority are actually in their high 30s.  Which, by the way, is fairly much the average gamer age now.

I'm curious.  How do you know how old the vast majority of the EQ2X playerbase is?  I could see the argument that based on server chats and forum posts, the playerbase seems mature, but how would you know the actual ages? 

my guild on eq2x was majority age 27 to 45 , thats out of 30 plus people .

[Andok]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Neiloch@Butcherblock wrote:

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Yeah SOE and EQ2 are doing so [Removed for Content] well that

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/31/s...els-the-agency/

"As part of a strategic decision to reduce costs and streamline its global workforce, SOE announced today that it will eliminate 205 positions and close its Denver, Seattle and Tucson studios. As part of this restructuring, SOE is discontinuing production of The Agency so it can focus development resources on delivering two new MMOs based on its renowned PlanetSide and EverQuest properties, while also maintaining its current portfolio of online games. All possible steps are being taken to ensure team members affected by the transition are treated with appropriate concern."

In FY 2010 they lost over 83 BILLION Yen in their Networked Products and services division (where Sony Computer Entertainnment [where SOE now is] is structured).  They made a little over 35 billion in FY 2011 (which ended in March) BUT this was largely due to (at the time of the report 83 Yen = 1 US dollar.  So that was an 1 billion dollar loss for 2010).

"A category that favorably impacted the change in segment operating results

(excluding restructuring charges) was the game business, reflecting significant cost reductions of PlayStation®3

(“PS3”) hardware and higher unit sales of PS3 software. "

See any mention of PC games there?

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/fin...r/10q4_sony.pdf 

They also stated that when they do come back to profitability it will be due to the sale of LCD TV's and semi-conductors.   Heck Thus far they are estimating a loss of almost 200 million dollars as a direct result of the PSN/SOE security breech.  Do you think this is becaus people did not leave and are NOT coming back anytime soon?  Yeah there has been a bump due to the 45 day free thing, but even that hasn't changed the rather bleak forecasts.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/...-net-loss/12900

If you lay off that many employees, cancel one project and consolidate into 2 this is NOT a good thing.  Keeping EQ2 alive serves one logical business purpose and only one at this point.  It keeps the IP active so that if/when they get EQNext up and running they still have a customer base.

Listen I LOVE EQ2.  I LOVE Norrath.  I love the friends I made there, I love the raiding I did there, the best on line gaming experiences I ever had happened in EQ2 and I have played MMO's Since 1997 when UO launched.  This doesn't mean that I can just ignore the hard reality that this game is dying.  It's not flatlined, it's not even bleeding out, but it is suffering a lingering death at this point due to poor business decisions over the last year or two that followed on the heels of a benign neglect from corporate that started just before Gallinite left and was then greatly accelerated by the hacking. 

This isn't an attack, it happens to all games eventually.  That is why EQNext is in developement. For EQNext to be successful they need to keep the franchise in people's minds and for this they have to keep the game going, even if the population shrinks. 

So your logic is that EQ2 should be keeping all of Sony or even just SoE afloat after considerable mistakes made by other departments and teams out of their control to be considered successful? That's insane. If you take the extremely rare scenario of WoW success out of the MMO equation, EQ2 is doing very well.

Sometimes these arm chair MMO business analysts remind me of that movie Talledega Nights. "If you're not first, you're last." Yeah it doesn't work that way at all, from any angle. 100% wrong.

No I posted the COMPLETE financials for a reason.  It should NOT keep Sony in it's entireity up BUT it is the only darn thing really keeping SOE up.  The EQ franchise is SOE's Prime money maker.  They are projecting further loses in that segment even with the elimination of the real dogs (SWG, The agency developement, the lay offs etc).  That means EQ is also losing money.  I actually own Stock in Sony and not as part of one of my Mutual funds, it's one of 2 companies I made direct stock purchases of so I pay attention because I want to know what is happening with my money and why.  This has nothing to do with arm chair analysis.  Read all the info.  If you don't understand what some of it means feel free to ask. 

The truth about these games is in the numbers and the history.  If the game was healthy they would not have had to do alternative revenue streams.  If the game was staying the same or growing they would not have had to do the server mergers.  If the game was doing well or making money after eliminating excess expenses from SOE, SOE would not still be looking at a financial loss, especailly the huge losses they took last year.  Since subs= money if you make a lot less money that =less subs.  That is whay I put all this information there for you to look at if you wanted to bother.  If you want to try and actually challenge or debate the numbers fine.  if you just want to go on some sort of stump speech filled with jingoism and pithy sayings without facts, please leave me out of it.

I have seen countless "EQ is dying" posts over the last decade, but I think this is the first time I have ever seen anyone try to prove it with a quarterly report. 

First off, that is 10Q for Sony - SOE is just a division of Sony.  Also, it clearly states that revenue from SOE is down due to measures that were taken after the hacking, not that revenue is down because Galibier doesn't like changes to the game.

Still, I agree with you.  The game is dying, and so am I.  So are you.  Every minute is one minute closer to our end.  Fortunately, that end is far away. 

[melaine_dvarvensplitter]

Yes this is a troll post but I am going to do it anyways...

OH NOOES THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!! OH NOES THE GAME IS DYING!!!!! OH NOES...

OP .. Seriously get a grip and if your going to complain please complain on the itemization or lack there of, lack of cool effects on gear, lack of information on Beastlords... those are good things to complain about.

But the game is dying.. folks said that at live update 13 and we are at game update 61 soon, nope not dying. Smokejumper says yes the population is declining or had declined but he actually cares for the game and is working to breathe life back into it and get our sub numbers back up. Look at eq1 ... 11 years old or so and still going... yup dying .. right.

[darwich]

deadcrickets2 wrote:

darwich wrote:

I do NOT want to play with F2P kids... face it most people that play f2p are kids... and that is EXACTLY why i left wow many times... the community is a BUNCH of kids... eq2 live is more adult players who MOST of them are mature, and not idiotic... if eq2 went total f2p it would be time for me to get a new game... period.

False statement.  Please at least check out the server before making false comments.  The vast majority are actually in their high 30s.  Which, by the way, is fairly much the average gamer age now.

k your statistics could be as flawed as mine since they came from the same place.. thin air... 79.3%  of your false statement is true, but 18.4% is of your truth is false! ( i know that doesnt add up to 100% its +/- error % !!!!)

[Gisallo]

Andok wrote:

I have seen countless "EQ is dying" posts over the last decade, but I think this is the first time I have ever seen anyone try to prove it with a quarterly report. 

First off, that is 10Q for Sony - SOE is just a division of Sony.  Also, it clearly states that revenue from SOE is down due to measures that were taken after the hacking, not that revenue is down because Galibier doesn't like changes to the game.

Still, I agree with you.  The game is dying, and so am I.  So are you.  Every minute is one minute closer to our end.  Fortunately, that end is far away. 

Well before last year I would have said no.  The main thing that made me freak was the losses of the division SOE is in LAST year.  Last year that division suffered 1 billion US in loses.  This is before the hacking so clearly there were already problems.  This is actually how I judge the health of all games, I look at how much money they are making because that is what the Execs use to determine how much financial support they will give to a product.  To them it's not about the depth of immersion of game play of a product, it literally is as simple as "show me the money."

The cancelation of the Agency, all the lay offs these were actually all on the table BEFORE the hack due to these loses.  Like you said all games, heck most everythings does die.  It's just that games do so on an obvious graph of sorts that you can kinda plot.  EQ2 is on a noticeable downward trend.  It wasn't until say TSO, up until then it was kinda stable.  TSO's delay though had some of the "annoyed at the delay" people not come back.  Then a bunch of the Brenlo changes chased off a few more.  The shrinkage continued a bit during SF, but the server mergers looks like they would help deal with it.  Then the hacking occurred.  Some of these trends are not a particular Producers fault.  TBH I think the fault is that each Producer since Gallinite had a different "vision" for the game.  Up until the end of RoK the vision for the game was rather consistent, the only really "big" change was the introduction of the mythicals.  After that though each producer has come along and they made rather larger course directions than I think were wise.

In the gaming world once you reach a plateu in subscriptions like EQ2 had you do what needs to be done to maintain it.  Brenlo's "we will get hundreds of thousands of new subs" with New Halas is stupidly niave.  5,6,7 years on your don't get big influxes of people.  Your game is running on old graphics engines, old server configurations, the game simply looks its age.  New players want new and shiny, they do not want old.  Instead of making expansions though to maintain what they had they kept making changes to attract new people that would never come in the numbers needed.  Yeah you got new players here and there, but new in the numbers to make up for the players you lost due to delays, and changes to the status quo that peeved them off.

I really hope they knock it out of the park with EQNext, I really do because I love this IP. 

[Rijacki]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Andok wrote:

I have seen countless "EQ is dying" posts over the last decade, but I think this is the first time I have ever seen anyone try to prove it with a quarterly report. 

First off, that is 10Q for Sony - SOE is just a division of Sony.  Also, it clearly states that revenue from SOE is down due to measures that were taken after the hacking, not that revenue is down because Galibier doesn't like changes to the game.

Still, I agree with you.  The game is dying, and so am I.  So are you.  Every minute is one minute closer to our end.  Fortunately, that end is far away. 

Well before last year I would have said no.  The main thing that made me freak was the losses of the division SOE is in LAST year.  Last year that division suffered 1 billion US in loses.  This is before the hacking so clearly there were already problems.  This is actually how I judge the health of all games, I look at how much money they are making because that is what the Execs use to determine how much financial support they will give to a product.  To them it's not about the depth of immersion of game play of a product, it literally is as simple as "show me the money."

The cancelation of the Agency, all the lay offs these were actually all on the table BEFORE the hack due to these loses.  Like you said all games, heck most everythings does die.  It's just that games do so on an obvious graph of sorts that you can kinda plot.  EQ2 is on a noticeable downward trend.  It wasn't until say TSO, up until then it was kinda stable.  TSO's delay though had some of the "annoyed at the delay" people not come back.  Then a bunch of the Brenlo changes chased off a few more.  The shrinkage continued a bit during SF, but the server mergers looks like they would help deal with it.  Then the hacking occurred.  Some of these trends are not a particular Producers fault.  TBH I think the fault is that each Producer since Gallinite had a different "vision" for the game.  Up until the end of RoK the vision for the game was rather consistent, the only really "big" change was the introduction of the mythicals.  After that though each producer has come along and they made rather larger course directions than I think were wise.

In the gaming world once you reach a plateu in subscriptions like EQ2 had you do what needs to be done to maintain it.  Brenlo's "we will get hundreds of thousands of new subs" with New Halas is stupidly niave.  5,6,7 years on your don't get big influxes of people.  Your game is running on old graphics engines, old server configurations, the game simply looks its age.  New players want new and shiny, they do not want old.  Instead of making expansions though to maintain what they had they kept making changes to attract new people that would never come in the numbers needed.  Yeah you got new players here and there, but new in the numbers to make up for the players you lost due to delays, and changes to the status quo that peeved them off.

I really hope they knock it out of the park with EQNext, I really do because I love this IP. 

Your allegation is that the losses are from EQ/EQ2 with nary a thought for the idea the losses were in the games and game types which were cancelled (the unreleased The Agency, nearly all of the FaceBook games) and in the one which had its publishing rights sold back to its creators (Dungeon Overlord). With the layoffs and studio closures, SOE made the statement that they were going to be focusing on their core businesses again, that they had gotten to spread out into other projects. That statement and the subsequent attention given to the EQ franchise points to the fact neither EQ nor EQ2 are 'dying'. You don't focus on something which is dying to rebuild your core, that would be very bad business indeed.

EQ Next got only a brief side mention at Fan Faire this year while last year it was one of the main features. EQ and EQ2 each got more mention and more attention at Fan Faire than Planetside 2. Even Vanguard got more mention than EQ Next.

SWG is 'dying' only because there was a decision made between SOE and Lucas Arts not to renew it's licensing. Read from that what you want, but my opinion that was directed more from the LA side since they have a new MMOG coming out and want to funnel all potential players to it.

[thesiren]

arthemis1er wrote:

Sadly but quite true AND untrue.

Live EQ2 low level is dead. Plain and simple. The low levels are empty. The only conversation you can get is with NPC.

Live EQ2 high level is alive but try to be a low level player in a MMO with no population and you will never reach high level because of bordedom. This is the reason why i consider it will die in no time if no massive server merger is done (i think a single server like EQ2X is the solution)

Live EQ2X low level, intermediate level, high level is alive.

I resubscribed to EQ2 a month ago just to see it looked like a standalone game with absolutely noone in low level. Rather play Oblivion, it costs less.

Went to EQ2X and saw a load of player in every zone. Pick your choice.

I would just like to say that:

A) This thread is about the lack of lore in EQ2, although its title is quite misleading and I can see why so many are commenting on the populations of different level ranges and servers in-game.

and B) This guy is still right about Extended (and so are the others with similar comments about how F2P would improve pops at all levels and keep them cranking).  What have I been saing all this time?  Hey, *I* didn't bring it up!      *ducks*

[thesiren]

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Live should join in on the program I just started for the Extended players but want both communities to do.  The players are beginning a fan promotion across multiple gaming sites to get the word out about the game and it's benefits to players.  You want new blood?  Get out there and campaign for it. 

You know, he's right.  Extended gets the new players because it's "Free."  (IMO SOE gave away the farm here, especially compared to other AAA devs like Turbine and their MMORPGs but still....) 

To get new players onto live, live players are going to have to talk up the game and sell it.  By rights, SOE should be doing  this, but they've never really put much $$ into advertising...so it's up to the live population instead to let people know about the veteran rewards, the open PvP server...the things the Free Extended server does not have.  And to try and bring in enough new players at the same time that they will at least have each other to level through the lower parts of the game with, while being able to ask newbie questions in general chat (1-9 is usually General on every server) and get actual answers from the old timers.

[Miapa]

thesiren wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

Live should join in on the program I just started for the Extended players but want both communities to do.  The players are beginning a fan promotion across multiple gaming sites to get the word out about the game and it's benefits to players.  You want new blood?  Get out there and campaign for it. 

You know, he's right.  Extended gets the new players because it's "Free."  (IMO SOE gave away the farm here, especially compared to other AAA devs like Turbine and their MMORPGs but still....) 

To get new players onto live, live players are going to have to talk up the game and sell it.  By rights, SOE should be doing  this, but they've never really put much $$ into advertising...so it's up to the live population instead to let people know about the veteran rewards, the open PvP server...the things the Free Extended server does not have.  And to try and bring in enough new players at the same time that they will at least have each other to level through the lower parts of the game with, while being able to ask newbie questions in general chat (1-9 is usually General on every server) and get actual answers from the old timers.

Not sure why SOE relies on word-of-mouth.  I would never recommend a game to anyone where content is unfinished/rushed/broken, released and then only partly fixed the next coming weeks/months.  This happens far too often; I actually think I have yet to see a feature or content that is not broken on release.  It seems like there is no QA/Testing done on anything.

[Gisallo]

Rijacki wrote:

Your allegation is that the losses are from EQ/EQ2 with nary a thought for the idea the losses were in the games and game types which were cancelled (the unreleased The Agency, nearly all of the FaceBook games) and in the one which had its publishing rights sold back to its creators (Dungeon Overlord). With the layoffs and studio closures, SOE made the statement that they were going to be focusing on their core businesses again, that they had gotten to spread out into other projects. That statement and the subsequent attention given to the EQ franchise points to the fact neither EQ nor EQ2 are 'dying'. You don't focus on something which is dying to rebuild your core, that would be very bad business indeed.

EQ Next got only a brief side mention at Fan Faire this year while last year it was one of the main features. EQ and EQ2 each got more mention and more attention at Fan Faire than Planetside 2. Even Vanguard got more mention than EQ Next.

SWG is 'dying' only because there was a decision made between SOE and Lucas Arts not to renew it's licensing. Read from that what you want, but my opinion that was directed more from the LA side since they have a new MMOG coming out and want to funnel all potential players to it.

Well first they noted that in the Sony Computer entertainment division that the PS hardware andd software were doing well.  Sony Computer Entertainment is where SOE is now and has been since (I think) 2007.

Now if the PS and it's products are doing well, were does a 1 billion US loss come from in 2010?  Well it's pretty obvious that a LARGE portion of that has to be from SOE.  Do you actually think that that amount of money came from JUST the Agency having issues in 2010?  That is ridiculously naive to say the least.  When the most expensive MMO in history, SWTOR is said to have cost 80 million to develope to end and the Agency wasn't even close to being finished, while being a factor it clearly wasn't a huge factor.

Also lets look at how companies work.  In their restructuring when they just did the lay offs all the work done in Denver, Seattle and Tuscon is being moved to San Diego.  They have NOT hired more Dev staff people in San Diego.  They clsoed SWG, yes because the licensing wasn't renewed BUT, the game would have been screwed if it was because it was going to have a HUGE (even if only temporary drop) when SWTOR launches.  The real proof in the pudding is if all other continued programs are being rolled into San Diego AND they haven't hired more staff to deal with this, they clearly think they can afford to move MORE people from EQ and EQ2 to these other projects.  For goodness sake we all know half the reason TSOP took so long was because they already reduced to an near skeltonb crew back then.  Now they are reducing the staff more.  You do this because the game is chugging along just as always?

Come on lets get real.  Even with the server merges this game is no where near as "full" as it was during EoF/RoK.  heck last year people were complaining about the server merges being too slow and buggy as all heck.  Now people are complaining that they need to merge more.  You do not need to merge every darn year if the game is not shrinking.

The problems aren't because the world is bad.  It's not because the game itself is bad either.  I mean how many people will just sit around complaining about Brenlo and things he did and not leave?  Now suddenly I see people praising SJ but back when he first came over right up until recently and did the huge EQx push and was clearly hired because of his microtransaction experience, he was vilified by many.  Now people praise him because he is giving bread and circuses by bring beast Lords into EQ2.  How many people do you think left due to SJ's actions?  How many people do you think left because of the hacking incident?  How many people do you think left to play Rift.  How many people do you think are salivating over SWTOR and GW2? 

It's a tough time for EQ atm.  It's an old game, new more shiny products are coming out, to top it off they have made poor decisions regarding producer hires since Gallinite left and then they got hacked.  All of this has negative impacts.  It's one step forward followed by at least one if not two steps back.  Yes there are people who will play EQ games until they shut down the servers because they love the IP.  The same was true for SWG as well.  I don't think anyone however would claim that SWG was "doing well" in the big scheme of MMO gaming.  If it was Lucas would not have moved to EA/Biware to produce his next game he would have stuck with Sony.

Believe me I am NOT a HATER.  I LOVE this game and it's world.  I think that until certain very recent changes it was THE BEST MMO out there.  Even when I thought that though, it was impossible to not note the population decling even in 2009.  Age only keeps that trend continuing.  Add in all the other headaches that have happened and it only becomes worse.

[Tallithia]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

 

Well first they noted that in the Sony Computer entertainment division that the PS hardware andd software were doing well.  Sony Computer Entertainment is where SOE is now and has been since (I think) 2007.

Now if the PS and it's products are doing well, were does a 1 billion US loss come from in 2010?  Well it's pretty obvious that a LARGE portion of that has to be from SOE.  Do you actually think that that amount of money came from JUST the Agency having issues in 2010?  That is ridiculously naive to say the least.  When the most expensive MMO in history, SWTOR is said to have cost 80 million to develope to end and the Agency wasn't even close to being finished, while being a factor it clearly wasn't a huge factor.

Also lets look at how companies work.  In their restructuring when they just did the lay offs all the work done in Denver, Seattle and Tuscon is being moved to San Diego.  They have NOT hired more Dev staff people in San Diego.  They clsoed SWG, yes because the licensing wasn't renewed BUT, the game would have been screwed if it was because it was going to have a HUGE (even if only temporary drop) when SWTOR launches.  The real proof in the pudding is if all other continued programs are being rolled into San Diego AND they haven't hired more staff to deal with this, they clearly think they can afford to move MORE people from EQ and EQ2 to these other projects.  For goodness sake we all know half the reason TSOP took so long was because they already reduced to an near skeltonb crew back then.  Now they are reducing the staff more.  You do this because the game is chugging along just as always?

Come on lets get real.  Even with the server merges this game is no where near as "full" as it was during EoF/RoK.  heck last year people were complaining about the server merges being too slow and buggy as all heck.  Now people are complaining that they need to merge more.  You do not need to merge every darn year if the game is not shrinking.

The problems aren't because the world is bad.  It's not because the game itself is bad either.  I mean how many people will just sit around complaining about Brenlo and things he did and not leave?  Now suddenly I see people praising SJ but back when he first came over right up until recently and did the huge EQx push and was clearly hired because of his microtransaction experience, he was vilified by many.  Now people praise him because he is giving bread and circuses by bring beast Lords into EQ2.  How many people do you think left due to SJ's actions?  How many people do you think left because of the hacking incident?  How many people do you think left to play Rift.  How many people do you think are salivating over SWTOR and GW2? 

It's a tough time for EQ atm.  It's an old game, new more shiny products are coming out, to top it off they have made poor decisions regarding producer hires since Gallinite left and then they got hacked.  All of this has negative impacts.  It's one step forward followed by at least one if not two steps back.  Yes there are people who will play EQ games until they shut down the servers because they love the IP.  The same was true for SWG as well.  I don't think anyone however would claim that SWG was "doing well" in the big scheme of MMO gaming.  If it was Lucas would not have moved to EA/Biware to produce his next game he would have stuck with Sony.

Believe me I am NOT a HATER.  I LOVE this game and it's world.  I think that until certain very recent changes it was THE BEST MMO out there.  Even when I thought that though, it was impossible to not note the population decling even in 2009.  Age only keeps that trend continuing.  Add in all the other headaches that have happened and it only becomes worse.

Company losses reported may also include stock losses/drops in value.  I am not certain this is included here but may in fact be a huge chunk of it.

[deadcrickets2]

Dragmar wrote:

Nolrog wrote:

deadcrickets2 wrote:

darwich wrote:

I do NOT want to play with F2P kids... face it most people that play f2p are kids... and that is EXACTLY why i left wow many times... the community is a BUNCH of kids... eq2 live is more adult players who MOST of them are mature, and not idiotic... if eq2 went total f2p it would be time for me to get a new game... period.

False statement.  Please at least check out the server before making false comments.  The vast majority are actually in their high 30s.  Which, by the way, is fairly much the average gamer age now.

I'm curious.  How do you know how old the vast majority of the EQ2X playerbase is?  I could see the argument that based on server chats and forum posts, the playerbase seems mature, but how would you know the actual ages? 

my guild on eq2x was majority age 27 to 45 , thats out of 30 plus people .

Part of three guilds on Extended and roughly same age ranges.  One of them more grey bearded though.  You'll see the same on Live in most guilds.  If you do a comparison between WoW and EQ2 you'll see that WoW has a much younger playerbase.  People have been talking about that for years but it's a proven fact as well.   It's even admitted by players of WoW that they avg from 16-25.  Research by the Daedalus Project is showing the avg age to be 28.3.  That is young compared to the average gamer out there.  One has to keep in mind that WoW gained the attention of school children rather easily and often in school one would play what one's friends are playing.

[Tigress]

Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:

What is it with you guys and all the doom and gloom?

WoW lost half a million subs, yet still had over 11 million, and even then "WoW is dying".

I swear to Hate every single freaking time one little thing doesn't go the way you want it to, "the game is dying".

Take your doom and gloom and apocalypse whining somewhere else. It's getting old.

thank you.

[Gisallo]

Tallithia wrote:

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Company losses reported may also include stock losses/drops in value.  I am not certain this is included here but may in fact be a huge chunk of it.

Not in the earnings report I linked.  What I linked does not reflect stock prices but thae income to expense ration of each individual division in the market place.  So when they projected a gain (prior to the hack) for the division it was because they believed the cost saving measures instituted at the time were going to make it so they took in more money than they spent.

[Gisallo]

Tigress wrote:

Sakiri@Crushbone wrote:

What is it with you guys and all the doom and gloom?

WoW lost half a million subs, yet still had over 11 million, and even then "WoW is dying".

I swear to Hate every single freaking time one little thing doesn't go the way you want it to, "the game is dying".

Take your doom and gloom and apocalypse whining somewhere else. It's getting old.

thank you.

There is a VERY important difference though.  What they lost was the subscription bump most MMO's get when a highly anticipated expac launches.  They announced a jump from 11 to 11.5 just prior to Cata, after Cata launched announced 12 now they say they are back to arround 11.  SO they are exactly where they were sub wise same time last year.

There is a BIG difference to a loss = a return to what was the status quo and a loss equaling a net loss.  It's like you had 10 dollars.  I ask you to hold 5 dollars.  I then ask for it back, you still have 10 dollars no biggie, disappointment but you are no poorer than you were before.  If you had 10 dollars and I took 5 of it you would be pretty [Removed for Content] because now you only have 5. 

[dawy]

Morrias@Antonia Bayle wrote:

bohohoboprobono wrote:

The fact is, every MMO is dying.  Not a single one out there has positive population growth.  The MMO bubble has burst.

I wouldn't say MMOs are dying, I think the EverQuest style of MMOs are dying just because theres so many of them and they're all the same, I hope some company takes a chance soon and does something new. (I don't mean new like Rifts 'were attacking you while you quest har har' I mean new as in an entirely new take on what MMOs really are)

I agree,to play something new and unique ahh that would be a wonder to behold,but honestly who would take that chance given these things cost millions to produce?

[MurFalad]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Yeah SOE and EQ2 are doing so [Removed for Content] well that

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/31/s...els-the-agency/

"As part of a strategic decision to reduce costs and streamline its global workforce, SOE announced today that it will eliminate 205 positions and close its Denver, Seattle and Tucson studios. As part of this restructuring, SOE is discontinuing production of The Agency so it can focus development resources on delivering two new MMOs based on its renowned PlanetSide and EverQuest properties, while also maintaining its current portfolio of online games. All possible steps are being taken to ensure team members affected by the transition are treated with appropriate concern."

No, that's a reflection that the Agency was doing very badly.  Just under a year before its closure the producer and the rest of the top design team (3 of them) all resigned.  SOE cannot keep pouring good money after bad, I guess they looked at the state of it in 2011 and decided that it would not make it to market soon enough to remain profitable so cancelled it.

Cancelling games before release happens, Blizzard did it to the MMO that was to be released instead of WoW, they simply decided the game wasn't going to be a success and pulled the plug.

Another thing here, the hacking happened after this decision, its got nothing to do with the SOE doing badly.

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Yeah SOE and EQ2 are doing so [Removed for Content] well that

http://www.joystiq.com/2011/03/31/s...els-the-agency/

"As part of a strategic decision to reduce costs and streamline its global workforce, SOE announced today that it will eliminate 205 positions and close its Denver, Seattle and Tucson studios. As part of this restructuring, SOE is discontinuing production of The Agency so it can focus development resources on delivering two new MMOs based on its renowned PlanetSide and EverQuest properties, while also maintaining its current portfolio of online games. All possible steps are being taken to ensure team members affected by the transition are treated with appropriate concern."

In FY 2010 they lost over 83 BILLION Yen in their Networked Products and services division (where Sony Computer Entertainnment [where SOE now is] is structured).  They made a little over 35 billion in FY 2011 (which ended in March) BUT this was largely due to (at the time of the report 83 Yen = 1 US dollar.  So that was an 1 billion dollar loss for 2010).

I'm not sure even if SOE is in Networked products and services since it doesn't say, but if it was that's a healthy statement since it made 35 billion yen in the year they decided to cut costs, and as they remarked they had increased market share across regions. 

Personally though I think that's just the PC division, SOE is part now of Sony Games along with the PS3 and looking at the number of player accounts for the PS3 network they are a smaller partner, although SOE's profit per a customer is probably vastly higher then the PS3 side.  SOE also has low costs apart from development whereas the PS division is selling hardware at a loss.

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

They also stated that when they do come back to profitability it will be due to the sale of LCD TV's and semi-conductors.   Heck Thus far they are estimating a loss of almost 200 million dollars as a direct result of the PSN/SOE security breech.  Do you think this is becaus people did not leave and are NOT coming back anytime soon?  Yeah there has been a bump due to the 45 day free thing, but even that hasn't changed the rather bleak forecasts.

You can read it like that, but the $200 million dollars is likely due to

1) Loss of business, they made no sales for a whole month

2) Need to implement increased security, new servers, new software, hire more staff.

Its a nice round number too, so no doubt someone in top management did a rough calculation and decided this was the budget they were putting aside.  This money does have to come from somewhere though, likely a combination of being a bit tighter for the next year and profits though, as while the unit is making good profits they would be daft to make cuts.

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Listen I LOVE EQ2.  I LOVE Norrath.  I love the friends I made there, I love the raiding I did there, the best on line gaming experiences I ever had happened in EQ2 and I have played MMO's Since 1997 when UO launched.  This doesn't mean that I can just ignore the hard reality that this game is dying.  It's not flatlined, it's not even bleeding out, but it is suffering a lingering death at this point due to poor business decisions over the last year or two that followed on the heels of a benign neglect from corporate that started just before Gallinite left and was then greatly accelerated by the hacking. 

This isn't an attack, it happens to all games eventually.  That is why EQNext is in developement. For EQNext to be successful they need to keep the franchise in people's minds and for this they have to keep the game going, even if the population shrinks. 

I don't know Gallinite, but from the bad decisions made I would pull out the biggest one as implementing a stat system with percentages as it, the Blizzard designers made the same mistake with WoW in its early days and nerfed every single percentage item in the game. Instead they were left to carry on in EQ2 until they adversely effected a expansion before they were fixed (SF).

The other bad decision I'd describe as not being innovative in the gameplay stakes for several expansions, DoF to RoK to me have very little different with them, in the same time WoW for example implemented scripted dungeons and a more polished questing system.  They're not bad (great art, good stories and some new stuff), but its just that they could have been better, especially looking at the vast number of changes that have been implemented in the past couple of years.

Dying though?  Nah, gamewise I think EQ2 is a lot more healthy in DoV then its been since the start of TSO, for a while I think things did stagnate and people did burn out, if the quality of the content can be kept up I see no reason why they cannot keep the sub base and slowly grow it.

Personally I don't have a lot of interest in EQNext, when it releases I'll read up on it since it is Everquest.  I have no idea here what will happen to EQ2 when EQNext does release too, no one has promised that EQNext will even target the same sort of people as EQ2 players, it might be much more casual for example to appeal to a broader market.

Besides, I'm enjoying EQ2 anyway, so who cares what else is out there

[Gisallo]

MurFalad wrote:

No, that's a reflection that the Agency was doing very badly.  Just under a year before its closure the producer and the rest of the top design team (3 of them) all resigned.  SOE cannot keep pouring good money after bad, I guess they looked at the state of it in 2011 and decided that it would not make it to market soon enough to remain profitable so cancelled it.

Cancelling games before release happens, Blizzard did it to the MMO that was to be released instead of WoW, they simply decided the game wasn't going to be a success and pulled the plug.

__________________________________________________ ________

Another thing here, the hacking happened after this decision, its got nothing to do with the SOE doing badly.

I'm not sure even if SOE is in Networked products and services since it doesn't say, but if it was that's a healthy statement since it made 35 billion yen in the year they decided to cut costs, and as they remarked they had increased market share across regions. 

Personally though I think that's just the PC division, SOE is part now of Sony Games along with the PS3 and looking at the number of player accounts for the PS3 network they are a smaller partner, although SOE's profit per a customer is probably vastly higher then the PS3 side.  SOE also has low costs apart from development whereas the PS division is selling hardware at a loss.

Regarding the first bit, yes The Agency was canceled because of the Agency.  However Offices were closed that were not involved.  Their services were all rolled into San Diego.  San Diego hired no new people.  This is evidence of a few things, the most important being that the number of players for EQ and EQ2 had to drop.  Employee numbers are very much based on the number of players.  The smaller the game the fewer employees you need and also financially support.  Yes it was before the hack and that is part of my other point.  They were having issues according to the financials BEFORE the hack.  Before the hack they were estimating a return to profitability before the end of FY2012, in the nEtwork services division it was for projected increased sales in PS3 hardware and games.  For the whole company it was going to be LCD Tv's and semi conductor sales.  Now the Tsunami and Earth Quake crushed the gains projected from the TV's and semi conductors, the Sony Computer Entertainment Division due to the hack.

SOE is under the Sony Computer Entertainment Division (same as PS) and that is under the Networked services division, it is not just the PC division.  If you look at the financials you would see that their FY 2011 profits for the Network services division was based largely on the increase in profitability of the sales of the PS3 and the sales of PS3 games perfectly illustrating this fact.

I am glad you enjoy the game.  Many people do.  As I said this is not about saying the game is some horrible pile of junk.  It is only saying that the game is contracting.  Who knows why.  maybe it's because MMO's themselves are simply not popular with new gamers raised on consoles.  Maybe it's because the subscription model is slowly becoming less popular, especially in a troubled economy, maybe its because it's just old.  Who knows but if you need to do a game wide server merge, not just select servers (barring PvP due to rule set and Bazaar due to contract issues) but all of them, AFTER these mergers many people are saying there needs to be more.  They seem to think they don't need as many employees to manage the customer base so they can put them on other projects rolled in from other studios and they are doing little advertising (they used to do NO advertsing) and that advertising is for the f2p not Live side.  These are all things that reflect a population decline.  Whether its based on popluation management steps or steps used to deal with financial losses.  Heck the mere existance of the f2p servers is evidence of it.

Look at every other Western MMO that has gone f2p like that (not a silly little cash store for fluff like SC was to start).  They all did the jump because the subscription model was no longer supplying enough revenue.  You do not continue and expand with such a change when you have 200 page rage threads against it when you are making good money from the subs.

Again I am not saying the game sucks, I am just saying that for any of a hundred reasons the game's population is shrinking at a rate that is more than your "average" decline.

The other issues u note, mudflation which required the introduction of crit mit, crit avoidance etc.  These are all things that I agree with.  Know why they are still making goofy mechanics to fix these issues?  Because when they decided to fix it the player base raged and they chickened out.  The devs that had the stones to actually try and make changes that would address the mechanics issues are now gone.