Healing Nerfed?

[Notsovilepriest]

pokemonirl wrote:

Can some one pleases look at the Mystics/Defilers...really 2.5ishk single target wards in pvp?

It's because even the new PvP gear focuses on Crit bonus which screws the healing of shaman really bad since we only get 1/2 effectiveness from it. I feedbacked this on the test forums but it was ignored.

[Clarrice]

Olihin wrote:

We will be adjusting the numbers for healing as we get more feedback.

At this time, it does appear that the new numbers are a shock, since you now have to somewhat pay attention.   I need more feedback on this before we make other changes.  

Olihin

Good one.  One auto attack from a pally's bow took me to 2% hp (good job) and all three of my single target heals didn't get me back to 100%.  So nice balance there.

[Hammerhead25]

Theres also another problem....any healer that has end game sf gear and has all the sacred territory and overflow/stoneskin procs has a huge advantage now, considering the procs heal for more then the heals.

[technologically]

Olihin wrote:

 Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers.  Olihin

What you really need is a place were you could freely give groups full PvP gear, and generate the data you needed to balance the numbers for the Live debut.  Have you guys thought about setting up some sort of additional server were you can do this kind of thing?  It'd probably work out better then making frequent adjustments to the live servers until you nailed down the right balance.

Also, please look into the effect of your healing balance on the old gametypes please, healing the orb holder from just the orb damage has been entertaining, I don't even want to imagine it with some multilation stacked on.

[Daalilama]

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

pokemonirl wrote:

Can some one pleases look at the Mystics/Defilers...really 2.5ishk single target wards in pvp?

It's because even the new PvP gear focuses on Crit bonus which screws the healing of shaman really bad since we only get 1/2 effectiveness from it. I feedbacked this on the test forums but it was ignored.

This really doesnt amaze me anymore and stems partly from cookie cutter pvp gear and the oblivious approach to updates without taking into account the effects of those changes...

[Loldawg]

Hammerhead25 wrote:

Theres also another problem....any healer that has end game sf gear and has all the sacred territory and overflow/stoneskin procs has a huge advantage now, considering the procs heal for more then the heals.

Wait - so PVE procs work in PVP? Is this across the board - including war runes? It's confusing figuring out what actually is PVP only and what works for both playstyles.

[Thorgald]

khiahh wrote:

 Then again I would hate in a month or two to be the new player with no gear trying to play a bg, may get too discouraged.

I doubt that dying a few seconds faster this GU is gonna make a new pvp'ers life in the BG's noticably harder.

It's not like they were hard to kill before the update or anything

[raydenwins]

90 warden, full heal spec I'm noticting the heals are very weak in comparison to dps received to put it simply. If I were to guess, I'd say heals were reduced 50%. Perhaps they should have been reduced 5% instead? Group members are taking way too much damage too fast, heals don't come close in keeping them up.

[Hammerhead25]

Lolkat@Nagafen wrote:

Hammerhead25 wrote:

Theres also another problem....any healer that has end game sf gear and has all the sacred territory and overflow/stoneskin procs has a huge advantage now, considering the procs heal for more then the heals.

Wait - so PVE procs work in PVP? Is this across the board - including war runes? It's confusing figuring out what actually is PVP only and what works for both playstyles.

The only new proc i know that works in pvp is Revered lands *2400 group ward proc in pvp* but my main concern is the OLD gear from sf thats no adorns but on the gear itself, HoT, Ward, Group ward, Regening ward, stoneskin procs....yea unless they make all pve procs not used in pvp, were gonna have to go raid some old stuff to be on a level playing field :/  I have the revered lands proc and it is usually # 3 on my heal parse in bg since it does 1/2 of my single target ward and its almost always on .  So now imagine 5-6 ward procs, some stone skin procs and some HoT procs.  Won't really matter what your heals are doing.

[Ilovecows]

I'm pretty sure Unyielding Will was nerfed as well... It used to heal in pvp 33 or 34% or something, but now it only heals for 27.9%

[Notsovilepriest]

Steppen@Nagafen wrote:

I'm pretty sure Unyielding Will was nerfed as well... It used to heal in pvp 33 or 34% or something, but now it only heals for 27.9%

You probably lost potency in the stat seperation

[Ilovecows]

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

Steppen@Nagafen wrote:

I'm pretty sure Unyielding Will was nerfed as well... It used to heal in pvp 33 or 34% or something, but now it only heals for 27.9%

You probably lost potency in the stat seperation

That isn't it.  I was wearing full pvp gear, and I still am.  Anyways, the pve amount is still 40%, only the pvp part of it changed.

[ntommyb]

Olihin wrote:

Hammerhead25 wrote:

I have already said it earlier in the post, If the aa's would be fixed to actually increase the heals/damage spells like there suppose to it wouldn't be as far off as it were now.  20 percent base to your heals for 5 points in an aa? you wish! no seriously they don't work in pvp, Freehand sorcery for your potency/cb? why do we need that *rolls eyes*.   I believe they did lower heals a tiny bit, but the aa's are what's really killing us. I'm also sure they never took into account before changing heals.....mutilation procs.  My wizard can keep 2-3 of these on a grp at any given time, not counting if anyone else in the group/raid has them.  Each of these is -15 percent to heals recieved. 

Mutilation procs were considered.  The people that use them will find them more effective against their targets, but they were not changed at all. 

The healing was reduced and it will affect some healers more then others.  Some classes will not be topping the DPS parse and still maintain the healing capabilities they would want.   Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers.  We balance the abilities based on a group, with the full understanding that some classes will outshine others in a solo setting.  That applies to all classes, not just healers.

Olihin

I feel like this is a huge cop out.  It doesn't look like people need full sets of new pvp gear to do insane amounts of damage.  All things being equal the amount of damage vs heals is game breaking.  I don't know what the heck the test server is for if its not for testing the effects you're "waiting on data" to adjust.  Maybe you people should consider gathering some of your own data before you launch updates untested.  

[Peak]

ntommyb wrote:

Olihin wrote:

Hammerhead25 wrote:

I have already said it earlier in the post, If the aa's would be fixed to actually increase the heals/damage spells like there suppose to it wouldn't be as far off as it were now.  20 percent base to your heals for 5 points in an aa? you wish! no seriously they don't work in pvp, Freehand sorcery for your potency/cb? why do we need that *rolls eyes*.   I believe they did lower heals a tiny bit, but the aa's are what's really killing us. I'm also sure they never took into account before changing heals.....mutilation procs.  My wizard can keep 2-3 of these on a grp at any given time, not counting if anyone else in the group/raid has them.  Each of these is -15 percent to heals recieved. 

Mutilation procs were considered.  The people that use them will find them more effective against their targets, but they were not changed at all. 

The healing was reduced and it will affect some healers more then others.  Some classes will not be topping the DPS parse and still maintain the healing capabilities they would want.   Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers.  We balance the abilities based on a group, with the full understanding that some classes will outshine others in a solo setting.  That applies to all classes, not just healers.

Olihin

I feel like this is a huge cop out.  It doesn't look like people need full sets of new pvp gear to do insane amounts of damage.  All things being equal the amount of damage vs heals is game breaking.  I don't know what the heck the test server is for if its not for testing the effects you're "waiting on data" to adjust.  Maybe you people should consider gathering some of your own data before you launch updates untested.  

Heals were way too overpowered. Then they nerfed it sometime between our testing and when the update went live. That's obviously the part that didn't get enough testing.

It's an obvious problem and we shouldn't have to wait until everyone has farmed out all their PVP gear just to get changes done.

[Crismorn]

ntommyb wrote:

Olihin wrote:

Hammerhead25 wrote:

I have already said it earlier in the post, If the aa's would be fixed to actually increase the heals/damage spells like there suppose to it wouldn't be as far off as it were now.  20 percent base to your heals for 5 points in an aa? you wish! no seriously they don't work in pvp, Freehand sorcery for your potency/cb? why do we need that *rolls eyes*.   I believe they did lower heals a tiny bit, but the aa's are what's really killing us. I'm also sure they never took into account before changing heals.....mutilation procs.  My wizard can keep 2-3 of these on a grp at any given time, not counting if anyone else in the group/raid has them.  Each of these is -15 percent to heals recieved. 

Mutilation procs were considered.  The people that use them will find them more effective against their targets, but they were not changed at all. 

The healing was reduced and it will affect some healers more then others.  Some classes will not be topping the DPS parse and still maintain the healing capabilities they would want.   Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers.  We balance the abilities based on a group, with the full understanding that some classes will outshine others in a solo setting.  That applies to all classes, not just healers.

Olihin

I feel like this is a huge cop out.  It doesn't look like people need full sets of new pvp gear to do insane amounts of damage.  All things being equal the amount of damage vs heals is game breaking.  I don't know what the heck the test server is for if its not for testing the effects you're "waiting on data" to adjust.  Maybe you people should consider gathering some of your own data before you launch updates untested.  

All the high dmg is being done with raid weapons/jewelery sadly, no one is waiting to buy year old PvP weapons to do vastly inferior dmg

[Crismorn]

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

ntommyb wrote:

Olihin wrote:

Hammerhead25 wrote:

I have already said it earlier in the post, If the aa's would be fixed to actually increase the heals/damage spells like there suppose to it wouldn't be as far off as it were now.  20 percent base to your heals for 5 points in an aa? you wish! no seriously they don't work in pvp, Freehand sorcery for your potency/cb? why do we need that *rolls eyes*.   I believe they did lower heals a tiny bit, but the aa's are what's really killing us. I'm also sure they never took into account before changing heals.....mutilation procs.  My wizard can keep 2-3 of these on a grp at any given time, not counting if anyone else in the group/raid has them.  Each of these is -15 percent to heals recieved. 

Mutilation procs were considered.  The people that use them will find them more effective against their targets, but they were not changed at all. 

The healing was reduced and it will affect some healers more then others.  Some classes will not be topping the DPS parse and still maintain the healing capabilities they would want.   Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers.  We balance the abilities based on a group, with the full understanding that some classes will outshine others in a solo setting.  That applies to all classes, not just healers.

Olihin

I feel like this is a huge cop out.  It doesn't look like people need full sets of new pvp gear to do insane amounts of damage.  All things being equal the amount of damage vs heals is game breaking.  I don't know what the heck the test server is for if its not for testing the effects you're "waiting on data" to adjust.  Maybe you people should consider gathering some of your own data before you launch updates untested.  

Heals were way too overpowered. Then they nerfed it sometime between our testing and when the update went live. That's obviously the part that didn't get enough testing.

It's an obvious problem and we shouldn't have to wait until everyone has farmed out all their PVP gear just to get changes done.

I feel bad for Shaman and bad Wardens tbh as they were punched in the face by the change

[Shuai]

Surrena (Warden) on the freep side is a beast. Heals just fine. No clue if he/she has raid gear or anything on though. But very very hard to take down. 

It's really hard for me to tell if the healer died to me because I out gear them or chose my pvp adorns better, or if it's because they have nerfed heals, or if it's because they suck. But there are definitely some healers that stand out and heal their groups very very well.

[Darkor]

Fought a shaman the other day on my almost full pvp geared assassin. It was impossible to get him into the reds...

[Vaylan77]

bring fizzleling heal spells back and leave healing amounts untouched.

[Crismorn]

Shuai wrote:

Surrena (Warden) on the freep side is a beast. Heals just fine. No clue if he/she has raid gear or anything on though. But very very hard to take down. 

It's really hard for me to tell if the healer died to me because I out gear them or chose my pvp adorns better, or if it's because they have nerfed heals, or if it's because they suck. But there are definitely some healers that stand out and heal their groups very very well.

Yeah Surrena is 1 of 3 Wardens I've met who can play that class at a very high level, he is definetly the minority when it comes to Wardens.

[Crismorn]

Darkor@Nagafen wrote:

Fought a shaman the other day on my almost full pvp geared assassin. It was impossible to get him into the reds...

Not a jab or anything, but my previous reply about shaman was based on group pvp and not 1v1 pvp as this game is balanced for group pvp.

Keep in mind I do not play a shaman and have done so since early TSO but the fact remains that any type of base heal nerf will mathematically hurt shaman more than any other priest.

And once you add interupts/cc/etc. it gets even wider.

[Notsovilepriest]

Crismorn wrote:

Darkor@Nagafen wrote:

Fought a shaman the other day on my almost full pvp geared assassin. It was impossible to get him into the reds...

Not a jab or anything, but my previous reply about shaman was based on group pvp and not 1v1 pvp as this game is balanced for group pvp.

Keep in mind I do not play a shaman and have done so since early TSO but the fact remains that any type of base heal nerf will mathematically hurt shaman more than any other priest.

And once you add interupts/cc/etc. it gets even wider.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=501325

I have played a shaman for a LONG time

[Cloakentuna]

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

ntommyb wrote:

Olihin wrote:

Hammerhead25 wrote:

I have already said it earlier in the post, If the aa's would be fixed to actually increase the heals/damage spells like there suppose to it wouldn't be as far off as it were now.  20 percent base to your heals for 5 points in an aa? you wish! no seriously they don't work in pvp, Freehand sorcery for your potency/cb? why do we need that *rolls eyes*.   I believe they did lower heals a tiny bit, but the aa's are what's really killing us. I'm also sure they never took into account before changing heals.....mutilation procs.  My wizard can keep 2-3 of these on a grp at any given time, not counting if anyone else in the group/raid has them.  Each of these is -15 percent to heals recieved. 

Mutilation procs were considered.  The people that use them will find them more effective against their targets, but they were not changed at all. 

The healing was reduced and it will affect some healers more then others.  Some classes will not be topping the DPS parse and still maintain the healing capabilities they would want.   Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers.  We balance the abilities based on a group, with the full understanding that some classes will outshine others in a solo setting.  That applies to all classes, not just healers.

Olihin

I feel like this is a huge cop out.  It doesn't look like people need full sets of new pvp gear to do insane amounts of damage.  All things being equal the amount of damage vs heals is game breaking.  I don't know what the heck the test server is for if its not for testing the effects you're "waiting on data" to adjust.  Maybe you people should consider gathering some of your own data before you launch updates untested.  

Heals were way too overpowered. Then they nerfed it sometime between our testing and when the update went live. That's obviously the part that didn't get enough testing.

It's an obvious problem and we shouldn't have to wait until everyone has farmed out all their PVP gear just to get changes done.

Lol, so not only was the change not posted in the update notes, they also weren't on test.  Makes sense, that's about par for the course for SOE.

[AziBam]

Silbermond@Nagafen wrote:

bring fizzleling heal spells back and leave healing amounts untouched.

Blasphemy!  Bite your tongue!  /shudders at the memory 

[patrck17]

Just wanted to make a few quick points here regarding some things I read above.  First I think we need to be careful when we start naming "so and so" player is really hard to take down and so on and so forth.  I think that may not really be offering a good baseline of what healers are capable of, especially when said healer is a warden.  We all know certain names of people of various classes that tend to perform better than others, but they are obviously in the top percentage of their class else we wouldn't even be mentioning them.  To balance all healers, or all of a class around these individuals would be doing the entire subclass a disservice.

Wardens especially have a lot of tools to keep themself alive with the stoneskins, great heals, and infinite power.  They should not be used as a baseline.  Consider Fury's whom are far less equipped to fend off large damage.  In BG's I have seen certain Fury's typically top the heal parse repeatedly, but when encountering them they are not able to stay alive very well so obviously the parse is misleading.  I just hope that isn't the number the dev's go to look at to decide on how to balance healers.

Another thing is that the healers that typically are the hardest to kill are the ones that have been around for expansions and have near full sets of pvp gear.  In my half geared ranger I find even these healers do have a hard time keeping up with the damage.  In my opinion I do not think even a predator should be able to outright burn a healer when they are expecting to be attacked, that is when gear is relatively similar, I am sure that is not how everyone feels though.  Just my 2 cents.

[Smashnutzx]

ok i have just come back from a 2 month break due to the PVP being completely broken pre update

now that im back was hoping to see some improvement to the balancing of classes NOT to find that my defiler (full pre update PVP geared) STILL gets burnt down in under 5 secs cause of the healing nerf... i understand that the devs dont wanna change anything until enough people get full PVP gear from the post update HOWEVER how can a defiler get the new gear when thier heals and wards are so nerfed that u cant survive in 1v1 or group pvp??

just a thought

i dont know about the other healer classes but defilers and it see shamans in general are the worst hit from the nerf

dont take this as just a whinge which i admit it is partly... but i like the game... but by patience is starting to wear VERY thin.

[Rigid]

I think you have your feedback man.... No one is really playing their healers in bgs.

I mean no offence to you. I understand your trying to balance this stuff and will concede a good tank healer combo could always make or break pvp. A real good healer could also survive and eventually kills most other classes in the game and sometimes win two vs one. The key in that was good. However there were also those that really sucked at playing a healer and died very easy. It always will be about player skill. Nerfing healers because 70% + can't play there classes is really not the way to balance things. While I concede a good healer could kill almost every other class in the game there are many people that just know how to play their class and could eventually kill almost any healer. That's talking one vs one.

 

You can't nerf player skill. People complained about good healers here but log into a bg where those same people have bad or just average healer in their group and they complain worse.

 

Also I was always under the impression that pvp was focused on group pvp. The people complaining that healers have an easy button really don't know that most good healers just understand groups. We don't run off solo to try to take on 6 people. We learn to find a strong tank and stay with them. If more dps classes would learn to stick with that tank healer combo they would see more wins in bgs. Sure maybe we needed some tweeks but making us 50% less effective in pvp wasn't the answer. The fact that BGS are all but dead now should make you see that with out testing these changes and ideas in some way isn't working at all. In fact it has people quitting.

 

Olihin wrote:

We will be adjusting the numbers for healing as we get more feedback.

At this time, it does appear that the new numbers are a shock, since you now have to somewhat pay attention. I need more feedback on this before we make other changes.

Olihin

I bet at this time the number of people logging into BGS is a shock, since you now have to somewhat pay attention to those numbers you should have all the feedback you need to know this change and the way it was impremented was a bad idea.  

Olihin wrote:

Mutilation procs were considered. The people that use them will find them more effective against their targets, but they were not changed at all.

The healing was reduced and it will affect some healers more then others. Some classes will not be topping the DPS parse and still maintain the healing capabilities they would want. Until we have data from groups with full PvP gear equipped, we will hold on adjusting the current numbers. We balance the abilities based on a group, with the full understanding that some classes will outshine others in a solo setting. That applies to all classes, not just healers.

Olihin

If you do not have tha "group" data by now you won't be getting it. Less and less people are using BGs and coming to warfields every day. That statistic should be the one that your MOST interested in.

[Yonaton]

I don't play any healers. Main is a troub,play a swash alt.

But I noticed how bad it's gotten for healing classes. Our raid healers are suffering fo sho. I know that a nerf was needed,but I think it went a bit too far by half. When we go out to pvp or BG we're not running groups with 4 healers and a tank/dps. Lucky if you got one or two pvp ready healers on and on the move. So it's hurting the grouping/raiding as much as anything else.

Edit to add: I disagree with the idea of a "bad healer" being the problem either. A four buttocked monkey could play this game,and mash/spam enough buttons on a healer the way it was before. The problem is it is far worse than it should have been. THe baby,as it wer,got thrown out with the bathwater. Scale heals back up some. If they were dropped to 50%,scale them back up to 75%. See if that doesn't fix the problem. Healers SHOULDN'T be standing up to an x2 ever. But I've seen it happen time and again.

[Rigid]

The easy fix to me would be to work this into stances. Ex:

Heal stance:heals are at 100% effectivness spells are 50% effectiveness.

No stance: Heals 75% and spells 75%

Offence stance: Heals 50% spells 100%

This would make healers make a choice to heal or dps. This doesn't fix auto attack damage from healers but that needs to be looked at cross the board not just for healers.