SOE: 1 Month and 1 Week Till Destiny of Velious is supposed to be released.

[Brigh]

Morghus wrote:

How can you people not realize that SOE no longer really wants to give EQ2 "premier new game" treatment? EQ2 is old, it isnt getting any new people in, on almost all websites that show their expansion trailers, you can see by peoples' comments that it is a laughing stock. Why waste money trying to advertise or support it, when it makes decent enough money on its own so that you can spend the money it makes to fund your other projects?

It is my understanding that SOE isn't really grouped into different sections like an EQ2 team, or a SWG team or w/e. Pretty sure they all share office space with each other, and even trade around their devs. The guy we had working on shader 3.0? He is working on a different SOE game right now from what I hear, and won't be back until he is done with that other game.

[Kitsi]

Carpediem@Antonia Bayle wrote:

The problem with that is, with no real advertising how are they going to get new players? A lot of people loved Velious in EQ1 and could walk by the PC games section of Best Buy or Gamestop and see the box.

With digital download only, it will only be people that are already playing, or word of mouth (which isn't much these days).

LOOK!  Advertising!

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x...m?topic_id=4594

Oh..wait........

[Iskandar]

Ah. Yeah. Right.

Making EQ2 compete against itself by separating the live and f2p servers into two "separate games" will end about as well as when Borders bought out Waldenbooks and kept the two brands separate so they could "compete." That worked out really well.... for Barnes & Noble. 

Everquest 2 needs to be advertised as Everquest 2, as a single entity with multiple server models and access plans, not as Legacy or Extended or any other divisive copout.

[ShinGoku]

Color me confused, I cant see anything about EQ2 on any of the 3 links he posted...

[Kitsi]

Iskandar wrote:

Ah. Yeah. Right.

Making EQ2 compete against itself by separating the live and f2p servers into two "separate games" will end about as well as when Borders bought out Waldenbooks and kept the two brands separate so they could "compete." That worked out really well.... for Barnes & Noble. 

Everquest 2 needs to be advertised as Everquest 2, as a single entity with multiple server models and access plans, not as Legacy or Extended or any other divisive copout.

DING!

See..there is NO advertising for EQ2.  None...not in stores..not on sites..nada..zilch.

These are ads for EQ2EXTENDED...period. 

Notice my link is from the Extended forums.   Nothing for Live.  I am sure Velious will be a very popular expansion. /nods  A month away from launch and nothing.

[Buffie]

Kitsi@Lucan DLere wrote:

Iskandar wrote:

Ah. Yeah. Right.

Making EQ2 compete against itself by separating the live and f2p servers into two "separate games" will end about as well as when Borders bought out Waldenbooks and kept the two brands separate so they could "compete." That worked out really well.... for Barnes & Noble. 

Everquest 2 needs to be advertised as Everquest 2, as a single entity with multiple server models and access plans, not as Legacy or Extended or any other divisive copout.

DING!

See..there is NO advertising for EQ2.  None...not in stores..not on sites..nada..zilch.

These are ads for EQ2EXTENDED...period. 

Notice my link is from the Extended forums.   Nothing for Live.  I am sure Velious will be a very popular expansion. /nods  A month away from launch and nothing.

In the link that send you nack to everquest, you'll notice that in the video played they allude there is a BL class with a male Kerran and a huge tiger sitting behind him out in the woods.

I played a BL in Eq1 as my main, was sad they werent included in EQ2. But I do feel pretty indignant that they deny this class but will advertise that  they do  for Eq2. 

Please dont allude that you have this class for Eq2, its disheartening and sad.

>

[WeatherMan]

Kigneer wrote:

Metaphysix wrote:

Neverwinter's coming out this year, by the way.

Oh, god no.

That series was so bug filled (and godawful) I just tossed the game never looking back.

Hey, we can hope that they will have figured all that stuff out by then.  The game world for Neverwinter Nights (the Forgotten Realms) is one of the very few that I consider superior to Norrath.  At least before it got mauled by Wizards of the Coast to shoehorn it into their 4th Edition D&D vision (a company that has even worse customer service and relations than SOE, if you can believe it).

And speaking of 'figured all that stuff out by then' - how do you pre-order something if they haven't figured out the release format, for all those people who want their Freebloods as a reward for being patient little subscribers?  For myself, I am not all that worried about a vampire (else I'd have used Smedbucks), but I WOULD like to know what advantages a boxed edition has over a digital download or vice versa.  Considering how much time is left before the theoretical release date, SOME information might be a good idea.

[scruffylookin]

Whether we agree or not, I think it's pretty obvious SOE has decided the value of advertising won't be greater than the cost.

With or without advertising, I think they've accepted the premise that the people who are going to buy this expansion have already decided they're going to buy it, so no advertising is really going to influence those folks. Their decision is made.

And the fact that they're not advertising it tells me it'll be a good expansion, but nothing that re-invents the wheel. It'll be more of the same, so we can move on. It's not designed to bring in new people, it's designed for existing players (IMO). Which means we won't be in awe of how increcible it is, but we'll have fun with it.

And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.

But that's not the purpose of advertising. Marketing is literally spending money to make even more money, and at this point, I can't imagine anyone at SOE believes a marketing campaign is going to make enough money to overcome its cost. If I had to guess, I'd be willing to bet they already have a very good estimate of how many units will sell, and that estimate would be pretty accurate with or without ads.

[Zaldor]

As I've said before, the best marketing SOE can do for EQ2 is sell the game to another company.

[Iskandar]

scruffylookin wrote:

And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.

Well, mine for one (well, more than one actually, since I have multiple accounts). Velious isn't getting a free ride from me -- it has to earn a spot on my shopping list, just like any other product out there. Show me it's worth buying and I'll buy it... but my pricepoint involves a bit more than just a lotta snow, flying griffons, and vampire alts.

[dawy]

Nice to see another shambolic xpac launch you know it'll come but you hope it wont when will they learn? and at this point,on this game do they care?

I suspect they dont tbh

[Kitsi]

Don't worry. They will release it.

[Fudged]

have been trawling MMORPG today looking for possible new stuff to try.  Noticed a few banner ads for EQ2x, nothing for velious, and nothing on the page for EQ2 about velious either.

[Metaphysix]

Kitsi@Lucan DLere wrote:

Don't worry. They will release it.

We probably don't WANT it released, if it's going to be quickly assembled garbage.

[Kitsi]

Fudged@Runnyeye wrote:

have been trawling MMORPG today looking for possible new stuff to try.  Noticed a few banner ads for EQ2x, nothing for velious, and nothing on the page for EQ2 about velious either.

I think the chances of finding advertising that specifically mentions EQ2 (sans X) are right up there between nil and zero. And the fact that there is no mention of Velious is, well, pretty unusual from all the hoopla in previous years.  It gives me a bad feeling.

SOE is quite satisfied, according to Smokejumper, with the Freeport server and what the players there bring to the game coffers. Closing down the beta servers on the Live forums so that 'the input of the Extended players" receives equal treatment is a clear demonstation of that. 

But don't get me wrong.  I am sure that EQ2(Live) will remain available for folks, most likely in that tiny little writing thing that scrolls by really fast at the end of a commercial with all the legal jargon and disclaimers and stuff you can't read.

[Wingrider01]

Iskandar wrote:

scruffylookin wrote:

And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.

Well, mine for one (well, more than one actually, since I have multiple accounts). Velious isn't getting a free ride from me -- it has to earn a spot on my shopping list, just like any other product out there. Show me it's worth buying and I'll buy it... but my pricepoint involves a bit more than just a lotta snow, flying griffons, and vampire alts.

QFT - My main account will get the upgrade but not sure about the others, I just finished placing placed my pre-order for the one that is coming out in March to see what it is like.

[Exialiez]

Rift is being released March 1'st.  I've been playing this game since before it launched.  I do not think this game will be on my list this year.  Right now I'm planning to go to Rift...why?  Because I know what to expect there, and the Beta's been fun.  Me and my wife both really wish this game would step it up and have a really good release, but I just don't see it happening.

[Fudged]

the only way i see it working is if they are having an intensive 2-3wk period of advertising immediatley before release, and a week or so after it's launch.  but by past experience, I don't see it happening

[Kitsi]

Remember a little while back Smokejumper said they were really really busy working on some awesome stuff??

Found it!

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=493464

and

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2x...m?topic_id=4760

[scruffylookin]

Wingrider01 wrote:

Iskandar wrote:

scruffylookin wrote:

And honestly, how many "Where's the advertising?" posts have been made from people that haven't decided whether or not they're going to get it. Those posts are typically from folks that are going to buy it with or without advertising, but just want a good sneak peak at what they're getting.

Well, mine for one (well, more than one actually, since I have multiple accounts). Velious isn't getting a free ride from me -- it has to earn a spot on my shopping list, just like any other product out there. Show me it's worth buying and I'll buy it... but my pricepoint involves a bit more than just a lotta snow, flying griffons, and vampire alts.

QFT - My main account will get the upgrade but not sure about the others, I just finished placing placed my pre-order for the one that is coming out in March to see what it is like.

But advertising isn't a factor in either of these decisions. Releasing information on the product, sure, but neither of your decisions to buy would be based on seeing a commercial on TV. Advertising would have no impact on you at all. It's information about the expansions that will make your purchasing decision, and that will come with open beta or even launch.

Spending thousands on commercial ads wouldn't impact your decision one way or the other. I'm just saying that's why they aren't marketing. There's no payoff for the cost.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just saying it's a sound business decision. The people they are making this expansion for are not going to be swayed by magazine or TV ads. They'll base it (as you said) on knowledge of the gameplay specifics, and that will come with reviews and word of mouth.

I think they just evaluated their customer base and decided that advertising campaigns would not justify the cost, and information that will determine your buying decision isn't impacted by the current timing. If you don't get any information on the game until launch, but at launch you see it has what you want, you'll buy it. 

It's just not economically viable. Both of your replies indicate that marketing isn't playing into your buying decision at all. If you like the features, you'll get it. If you don't, you won't. A cool ad campaign won't change our minds one way or the other.

Again, IMHO.

[Iskandar]

Well, it depends on the type of advertising being used: basically, there's informational or emotional ads. An emotional ad has flashy graphics and catchy taglines that are designed to get the "that looks awesome!" type of crowd, but tells you little about the product itself. An informational ad informs you about the product and gives consumers a logical, rational reason why the product is superior and worthy of purchase.

For game advertising, compare the "Rift" and "WoW: Cataclysm" ad spots with the "FreeRealms" and "Wizards 101" ad spots. Rift and WoW have each gone for the emotional approach -- dramatic CGI, explosions, dragons, flashy effects, and a catchy tagline. FreeRealms and Wizards each have an informational approach, with voiceovers and "mascots" providing details about content and gameplay along with ingame footage.

An emotional EQ2 ad would be just as you describe... an informational EQ2 ad is what I describe.

[scruffylookin]

But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to.

Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.

I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.

[DrkVsr]

The fact there has not been a single Red Shirt sighting in any of the many threads about this has got to be deafening in its silence

Ah can understand SOE's move to vaccuum-management system (as in, they stick a vaccuum cleaner into your bank account and suck up every cent you have if you want to progress beyond the basic loin-cloth and twig you start out with) but they have to understand that they could get more of that if they advertised and got more people hooked up to the vaccuum cleaners

[Iskandar]

scruffylookin wrote:

But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to.

Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.

I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.

The "target consumer" shouldn't just be limited to the current playerbase though, unless the goal is only to slowly kill the game through stagnation and slow attrition. And despite the naysayers, I really rather doubt that is the ultimate goal for SOE. A product needs marketing of one form or another or consumers will simply not know it exists.

WoW's advertising blitz for Cataclysm didn't convey any real information about the product. It was not a campaign targetted at their current subscribers. It was a flashy appeal to the emotional side of consumers, and its primary purpose was to get the name into the public consciousness, to stimulate impulse buys by people who were not currently subscribers.

And it worked.

I was standing next to a woman in Best Buy who purchased it simply because she recognized the name from the commercial and thought it sounded fun. I talked to her... she knew absolutely nothing whatsoever about MMOs or WoW. And that was far from an isolated event. Sure, she may have cancelled her sub after a month -- or she could be havin the time of her life right now... either way, she still bought the box. And she bought it because of the advertising.

When you get down to it, WoW didn't rise to dominate the numbers through word of mouth and pure luck -- they saturated every available market with advertising, especially the non-gamer markets. Unfortunately, EQ2 has always seemed to stick to those traditional gamer outlets... even the new campaign focuses its efforts on standard gamer websites and media, and personally I doubt the effectiveness of that strategy. 

As I've said a good dozen times before, most gamers who are into gaming enough to frequent those sites will have already made up their mind about EQ2. It's a SIX YEAR OLD TITLE -- heavy gamers have either played it and moved on, are still playing it, or were never interested and never will be. Newer gamers, especially ones looking for their first MMO, will either go where the numbers are, where their friends are, or where the media is at... and right now, that's gonna be products like WoW and Rift. Products that are using the media to their advantage -- either directly advertising through commercials and cross-medium campaigns, or indirectly advertising through the use of press announcements, developer interviews, and other "news" events.

I'm not talking out my derriere here. I've done quite a few ad campaigns before, worked in marketing teams that turned a company or product from a total unknown into a must-have -- all through the power of a clever ad. Honestly, it's more about psychology than anything else, getting the consumer to recognize the name and associate it with a positive thought. And it can still be done with EQ2, even this late into the game's life -- but it's not gonna happen without spening a little money and actually getting the name out there.

Here's a "homework" project for anyone truly interested that will illustrate what I'm saying far better than anything I can type here:  ask a friend, neighbor, or the person behind you in line to name the first five products that come to mind. Just fire the answers off, no hesitation, no research. Movies, soft drinks, games -- whatever category you wish. Rinse and repeat with as many different people as you can. When you're done, look over the list and see how many are "popular" brands, items that are heavily promoted (such as Coke and Pepsi, for example) as opposed to more obscure products (such as Chek or Faygo, to continue the soft drink example). I beleive you'll find the responses to be some of the most heavily advertised products in their respective categories. And THAT is the benefit of advertising to customers instead of just throwing the info on a forum.

[feldon30]

scruffylookin wrote:

But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to.

Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.

I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.

That's not how advertising and marketing work. Ads are generally NOT intended for those people who are familiar with the product.

Ask most people about EverQuest and they either say "yeah I played that 10 years ago, it's still running?" or "EverWhat?".

Ask most people about World of Warcraft and it's either "man I saw that South Park episode, that was hiliarious" or "I used to play, had to quit", or "My brother/uncle/cousin/nephew/neice/girlfriend/boyfriend" plays it.

[scruffylookin]

Iskandar wrote:

scruffylookin wrote:

But it's not money well spent, as their target consumer isn't someone they need to introduce the product to.

Putting information up on the forums or on the site will accomplish just as much as paying thousands of dollars to get it on TV or in a magazine, because the people that will buy it don't need to be introduced to the product. They already know of it, and if they don't the community will make sure they do.

I just don't see the benefit to advertising to customers that would be just as served by throwing the info up on the site and forums.

The "target consumer" shouldn't just be limited to the current playerbase though, unless the goal is only to slowly kill the game through stagnation and slow attrition. And despite the naysayers, I really rather doubt that is the ultimate goal for SOE. A product needs marketing of one form or another or consumers will simply not know it exists.

WoW's advertising blitz for Cataclysm didn't convey any real information about the product. It was not a campaign targetted at their current subscribers. It was a flashy appeal to the emotional side of consumers, and its primary purpose was to get the name into the public consciousness, to stimulate impulse buys by people who were not currently subscribers.

And it worked.

I was standing next to a woman in Best Buy who purchased it simply because she recognized the name from the commercial and thought it sounded fun. I talked to her... she knew absolutely nothing whatsoever about MMOs or WoW. And that was far from an isolated event. Sure, she may have cancelled her sub after a month -- or she could be havin the time of her life right now... either way, she still bought the box. And she bought it because of the advertising.

When you get down to it, WoW didn't rise to dominate the numbers through word of mouth and pure luck -- they saturated every available market with advertising, especially the non-gamer markets. Unfortunately, EQ2 has always seemed to stick to those traditional gamer outlets... even the new campaign focuses its efforts on standard gamer websites and media, and personally I doubt the effectiveness of that strategy. 

As I've said a good dozen times before, most gamers who are into gaming enough to frequent those sites will have already made up their mind about EQ2. It's a SIX YEAR OLD TITLE -- heavy gamers have either played it and moved on, are still playing it, or were never interested and never will be. Newer gamers, especially ones looking for their first MMO, will either go where the numbers are, where their friends are, or where the media is at... and right now, that's gonna be products like WoW and Rift. Products that are using the media to their advantage -- either directly advertising through commercials and cross-medium campaigns, or indirectly advertising through the use of press announcements, developer interviews, and other "news" events.

I'm not talking out my derriere here. I've done quite a few ad campaigns before, worked in marketing teams that turned a company or product from a total unknown into a must-have -- all through the power of a clever ad. Honestly, it's more about psychology than anything else, getting the consumer to recognize the name and associate it with a positive thought. And it can still be done with EQ2, even this late into the game's life -- but it's not gonna happen without spening a little money and actually getting the name out there.

Here's a "homework" project for anyone truly interested that will illustrate what I'm saying far better than anything I can type here:  ask a friend, neighbor, or the person behind you in line to name the first five products that come to mind. Just fire the answers off, no hesitation, no research. Movies, soft drinks, games -- whatever category you wish. Rinse and repeat with as many different people as you can. When you're done, look over the list and see how many are "popular" brands, items that are heavily promoted (such as Coke and Pepsi, for example) as opposed to more obscure products (such as Chek or Faygo, to continue the soft drink example). I beleive you'll find the responses to be some of the most heavily advertised products in their respective categories. And THAT is the benefit of advertising to customers instead of just throwing the info on a forum.

Respectfully, I disagree. The marketing blitz you're describing requires resources that would just be unwise to invest in. I've personally seen companies go bankrupt because of this very thing. The costs of such a thing is enormous and far more complex than you're describing.

If EQ2 suddenly got the numbers WoW has tomorrow, the game would almost certainly die. Advertising ins't just paying for ad space. You have to create a very expensive structure to handle that kind of growth. Growth that is too fast can be far more devastating than growth that is too slow. They would have to invest in servers and devs and cs and about a thousand other areas just to prepare for that level of growth. And then they'd have to pay for the advertising and the advertising teams. You're talking millions of dollars on the hope that it will cause a 6 year old game that is about to become a past generation game to suddenly be the cultural phenom that WoW is. EQ2 isn't equipped to handle that on any level and the end result would be shift from thousands of moderately satisfied customers to millions of grossly dissatisfied customers.

That is a massive risk that SOE obviously doesn't want to take. And it's a valid stance. Advertising works, but only when implemented as a part of a bigger machine that EQ2 simply is not. Advertising can be a great tool, but without the implementation of a very expensive structure to handle the possible influx, it is far more harmful than good.

I don't think SOE is trying to kill this game either. I think they just want it to remain profitable. And to do what you suggest would be risking everything in the hope of something that is unlikely to happen anyway.

Personally, I think with the current model of promotion and implementation, this game has many years left in it and it's currenlty an oasis of gaming. It will not become the cultural of phenom that WoW is, no matter what kind of marketing plan they implement. Advertising is not the reason WoW became what it is. It would likely cause (at best) growth that the structure isn't equipped to handle or (at worst) millions of dollars that could have gone into content development wasted on a gamble that didn't pay off.

[Kigneer]

feldon30 wrote:

That's not how advertising and marketing work. Ads are generally NOT intended for those people who are familiar with the product.

Ask most people about EverQuest and they either say "yeah I played that 10 years ago, it's still running?" or "EverWhat?".

Ask most people about World of Warcraft and it's either "man I saw that South Park episode, that was hiliarious" or "I used to play, had to quit", or "My brother/uncle/cousin/nephew/neice/girlfriend/boyfriend" plays it.

But we also have a couple major problems with EQ2 that other game like WoW doesn't have, which hurts the game, especially to attract new players.

One is EQ2Flames. A popular site for EQ2 players, but for a new player seeing that tomfoolery s/he will not think highly of the quality of EQ2's community. I recently saw a thread that was arguing some class mechanics wish-to-change, with a reply that basically went, "If you request this be ready for a RaR [Rate a [I cannot control my vocabulary]] thread, and I hope you're ready for a name and server change". Kills a very active part in MMO communities, and that's suggestions. A community that hard edged and controlling does not welcome change, change that is required in a game that is innovative and seeks new ideas to remain ahead of the competition. WoW can be a cesspool at times, but suggestions are there 24/7 without fear of threats; harassment; stalking if you disagree with a controlling few. EQ2Flames went from a way to voice disagreements with SoE; to keeping ninjas and other community trash from ruining the game; to a way to control the direction of the game itself (e.g., I don't like what XYZ said, I'm going to tattle and make a RaR. Bye sucker. I had this attempted by a stalker in this game, who took things w-a-y too seriously, to the point he wanted to control the outcome. Then this community wonders why so few come and stay? If they saw it done to others, they know how easy it can be done to them). Not a healthy environment if it's used as a literal club by few parties to "get their way".

Secondly, how do you introduce new players into a closed society? If you are totally new to the EQ franchise, how to do you "break the ice", when everyone is talking about what they did in EQ in 1998? Part of the thing with MMOs is to feel included in the social groups now. Games like WoW started new and only 6 years old. You may have missed the vanilla and BC years, but you can catch up fairly quickly, especially in a game that changes everything to begin with. EQ2? It's stuck in a time warp. It's great if you were part of that generation, there's a common bond. But for the new player, EQ2 can be a v-e-r-y lonely place. It's very long on the tooth with an old culture with social networks almost old as the graphical browser. Getting "in" is an epic journey itself.

So even if SoE does advertize to new markets, there's a couple of hurdles to get over. Major hurdles in attracting and retaining players. It's a shame too, since SoE created a game that has the most content; the best style of tradeskilling; epic raids; actual housing and guild halls. It has about everything...but new players.

[dawy]

Honestly if you're trying to lay (some) the blame of EQ2 at flames's door then this game really is in trouble in my view that site has done more good than bad for the game,at the very least its a place to go to vent or just say what you feel when the ban hammer's being used round here.

[Kigneer]

dawy wrote:

Honestly if you're trying to lay (some) the blame of EQ2 at flames's door then this game really is in trouble in my view that site has done more good than bad for the game,at the very least its a place to go to vent or just say what you feel when the ban hammer's being used round here.

Look at the "front door".

If they are a new player, totally oblivious of the EQ franchise, what do they see?

Are you familiar with 4chan?

EQ2, as a community, has some PR issues in itself. One hand they claim the ingame community is "mature". Goto EQ2Flames, do you see a mature community?

WoW they don't need such sites, they let it all hang out in the open (thick skin? Naw, you need a shovel). EQ2 they hide it like a dirty magazine behind a brown wrapper, tucked in the backroom. A peeping-tom is how they learn about it, and often after they have been "exposed" by him.

[feldon30]

Kigneer wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

That's not how advertising and marketing work. Ads are generally NOT intended for those people who are familiar with the product.

Ask most people about EverQuest and they either say "yeah I played that 10 years ago, it's still running?" or "EverWhat?".

Ask most people about World of Warcraft and it's either "man I saw that South Park episode, that was hiliarious" or "I used to play, had to quit", or "My brother/uncle/cousin/nephew/neice/girlfriend/boyfriend" plays it.

But we also have a couple major problems with EQ2 that other game like WoW doesn't have, which hurts the game, especially to attract new players.

One is EQ2Flames. A popular site for EQ2 players, but for a new player seeing that tomfoolery s/he will not think highly of the quality of EQ2's community. I recently saw a thread that was arguing some class mechanics wish-to-change, with a reply that basically went, "If you request this be ready for a RaR [Rate a [I cannot control my vocabulary]] thread, and I hope you're ready for a name and server change". Kills a very active part in MMO communities, and that's suggestions. A community that hard edged and controlling does not welcome change, change that is required in a game that is innovative and seeks new ideas to remain ahead of the competition. WoW can be a cesspool at times, but suggestions are there 24/7 without fear of threats; harassment; stalking if you disagree with a controlling few. EQ2Flames went from a way to voice disagreements with SoE; to keeping ninjas and other community trash from ruining the game; to a way to control the direction of the game itself (e.g., I don't like what XYZ said, I'm going to tattle and make a RaR. Bye sucker. I had this attempted by a stalker in this game, who took things w-a-y too seriously, to the point he wanted to control the outcome. Then this community wonders why so few come and stay? If they saw it done to others, they know how easy it can be done to them). Not a healthy environment if it's used as a literal club by few parties to "get their way".

Secondly, how do you introduce new players into a closed society? If you are totally new to the EQ franchise, how to do you "break the ice", when everyone is talking about what they did in EQ in 1998? Part of the thing with MMOs is to feel included in the social groups now. Games like WoW started new and only 6 years old. You may have missed the vanilla and BC years, but you can catch up fairly quickly, especially in a game that changes everything to begin with. EQ2? It's stuck in a time warp. It's great if you were part of that generation, there's a common bond. But for the new player, EQ2 can be a v-e-r-y lonely place. It's very long on the tooth with an old culture with social networks almost old as the graphical browser. Getting "in" is an epic journey itself.

So even if SoE does advertize to new markets, there's a couple of hurdles to get over. Major hurdles in attracting and retaining players. It's a shame too, since SoE created a game that has the most content; the best style of tradeskilling; epic raids; actual housing and guild halls. It has about everything...but new players.

EQ2Flames is the reason SOE can't grow the EQ2 player community? Really? I read and post at both sites. People do make dumb requests and suggestions. Here, we have to raise a valid argument. At Flames, you can just do a RaR. Different approaches for the same problem. The reason EQ2Flames even exists is because of gross overmoderation of the EQ2 forums, stamping out any criticism of the game, no matter how healthy and fair-minded it was written. The EQ2 forums became a "Love it or leave it" club for about 1 year. I moved to EQ2Flames because that's where all the smart people who wanted to talk about the mechanics and itemization issues in the game were allowed to do so.

And because EverQuest has a history, new players can't get into it? The last 3 years have seen EverQuest 2 made INCREDIBLY easy to get into. An alarming amount of streamlining, simplifying, and hand-holding have been done. How much easier and non-complicated does it have to get? Does it have to become Rift, which feels like you are completely on rails and have no free will? Does it have to become Wow, where an 8 year old can succeed?

The irony is, I think the ONLY ad campaign for EQ2 that would actually succeed is one that accentuates the depth that EQ2 offers. WoW is one-dimensional. Actually I raised this idea in the #EQ2 chat channel and a few people started laughing. You see, the last 3 years of EQ2 has seen a consistent, concerted effort to remove depth from EQ2. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the Global Cooldown in EQ2 increased from .25 sec to 1 sec.

You've got some pretty feeble excuses IMO. It sounds like you don't WANT new players in EQ2.

What's your solution? You think SOE should sue EQ2Flames to get their site shut down? What's your idea of a healthy MMO community forum? One that talks about solo questing and which brand of knitting needle is the best and thinks raiding is done by people in their basement who live with mom?