The three second pvp fight has returned

[Neskonlith]

Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:

its 100% the case that the raiders cried like pansies the loudest and got exactly what they wanted, again... not a surprise, they are the loudest bunch of QQ'rs of them all... so they whined and cried and complained and B#$%ched and moaned until they got their way... to get raid gear #1 for everyhing on a PVP server once again... just like it was all through ROK and TSO...

they wanted to be able to fight a scripted mob with ACT telling them what to do and when to do it, at the end of which, come out and beat the living b'jesus out of people who were PVP'ng that whole same time...   its what they do best...  kill PVE mobs with timers and think they somehow deserve better PVP gear for doing so...   and once again, SOE gave it to them

Isn't it "Guild Connect" that tells them what to do? 

Sure is silly that the best PVP items come from actively avoiding PVP by hiding in closed PVE instances.

[Neskonlith]

Tanx@Nagafen wrote:

Toxicz@Nagafen wrote:

I didn't read much of this thread, but for the lulz:

Sounds like a few people mistook toughness as skill, and are now dying, and don't like it

Listen son, people were dieing before the nerf. You guys just cried because the fights lasted to long?

And you equate superior gear to skill in pvp? [Removed for Content].

QFE

Nice to see SOE recently fixed a few of the broken raid procs that were hitting harder than intended: bugged procs= skill?

[Wolfsight]

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

I wish he had never put that toughness crap ingame. Now he's done something that cant be removed again, imho the game is kinda damaged and probably not repairable.

This.

Personally I think he should have removed toughness entirely and completely rebalanced heals / damage / survivability for each class. Toughness before the change gave insane survivability to some classes that really didn't need it making fights last years due to a combo of damage reduction and procs found on gear. Nothing about toughness is "skill" based its just a passive stat that made heals look OP and given the availability of heal / ward proc gear about in SF makes PvP more based who can spike out the other before they get lucky on a heal.

It would be like adding a new super proc that one shotted whoever it hits then balancing the game around that rather than going to the root of the problem. In this case the super proc is toughness and rather than balance what each class brings they add something to artificially lower damage which has the side effect of making heals look better leading to stupidly long fights where no one gets anywhere. Trying to adjust the flat out damage reduction without going on a class per class basis just messes it up even more.

As to the whiners ...

Seems the majority of people are blinded by "OMG RAIDERS WANT TO KILL IN SECONDS TOUGHNESS SHOULD STAY AS IT IS !!!". As said before I don't raid nor do I PvE much at all these days. Rather than laying blame on the raiders who know what the problem is and trying to get a fix for it you should look at the whole picture once in awhile. Using the same excuse over and over again does nothing to prove your point.

[Proud_Silence]

Wolfsight@Nagafen wrote:

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

I wish he had never put that toughness crap ingame. Now he's done something that cant be removed again, imho the game is kinda damaged and probably not repairable.

/snip

Seems the majority of people are blinded by "OMG RAIDERS WANT TO KILL IN SECONDS TOUGHNESS SHOULD STAY AS IT IS !!!". As said before I don't raid nor do I PvE much at all these days. Rather than laying blame on the raiders who know what the problem is and trying to get a fix for it you should look at the whole picture once in awhile. Using the same excuse over and over again does nothing to prove your point.

Raiders don't know what the problem is, they know what they would like to have in order to be the uncontested killers in pvp, and that was/is the removal of toughness.

While it hasn't completely been removed, it's been nerfed down so massively that HC raiders don't need any toughness gear anyway. The Hardmode loot is so powerful even in pvp that it more then compensates for not wearing toughness gear.

With my 450'ish toughness i reduce pvp damage by roughly 15%, and i'm sure the raid gear provides more potency and crit bonus to overcome that number.

@Toxic claiming gear advantage = skill. Well, you know you're a tool for saying something like that. before toughness nerf I could kill you now and then, because the fights would last more then 5seconds and actually give the opportunity to use CA's and "skill" was a factor. Now we're back to early TSO style. I see a random onyx dps class, and after one CA + autoattack i'm at 50% + either snared/rooted/stunned/stifled. by the time i try to counter that effect i'm already in red HP. There's no skill involved anymore.

Kinda sad that the constant QQ from the same people actually made Olihin change toughness. There was only a few classes that needed individual adjustment regarding toughness/taking dmg. But as so often, we get a blanket nerf/change, and in massive favor of people with access to HM loot.

[Neskonlith]

Proud_Silence wrote:

Raiders don't know what the problem is, they know what they would like to have in order to be the uncontested killers in pvp, and that was/is the removal of toughness.

While it hasn't completely been removed, it's been nerfed down so massively that HC raiders don't need any toughness gear anyway. The Hardmode loot is so powerful even in pvp that it more then compensates for not wearing toughness gear.

With my 450'ish toughness i reduce pvp damage by roughly 15%, and i'm sure the raid gear provides more potency and crit bonus to overcome that number.

@Toxic claiming gear advantage = skill. Well, you know you're a tool for saying something like that. before toughness nerf I could kill you now and then, because the fights would last more then 5seconds and actually give the opportunity to use CA's and "skill" was a factor. Now we're back to early TSO style. I see a random onyx dps class, and after one CA + autoattack i'm at 50% + either snared/rooted/stunned/stifled. by the time i try to counter that effect i'm already in red HP. There's no skill involved anymore.

Kinda sad that the constant QQ from the same people actually made Olihin change toughness. There was only a few classes that needed individual adjustment regarding toughness/taking dmg. But as so often, we get a blanket nerf/change, and in massive favor of people with access to HM loot.

+1

Especially since there were many broken effects on raid gear procs that allowed them to hit higher than intended.

[Wolfsight]

Neskonlith wrote:

Proud_Silence wrote:

Raiders don't know what the problem is, they know what they would like to have in order to be the uncontested killers in pvp, and that was/is the removal of toughness.

While it hasn't completely been removed, it's been nerfed down so massively that HC raiders don't need any toughness gear anyway. The Hardmode loot is so powerful even in pvp that it more then compensates for not wearing toughness gear.

With my 450'ish toughness i reduce pvp damage by roughly 15%, and i'm sure the raid gear provides more potency and crit bonus to overcome that number.

@Toxic claiming gear advantage = skill. Well, you know you're a tool for saying something like that. before toughness nerf I could kill you now and then, because the fights would last more then 5seconds and actually give the opportunity to use CA's and "skill" was a factor. Now we're back to early TSO style. I see a random onyx dps class, and after one CA + autoattack i'm at 50% + either snared/rooted/stunned/stifled. by the time i try to counter that effect i'm already in red HP. There's no skill involved anymore.

Kinda sad that the constant QQ from the same people actually made Olihin change toughness. There was only a few classes that needed individual adjustment regarding toughness/taking dmg. But as so often, we get a blanket nerf/change, and in massive favor of people with access to HM loot.

+1

Especially since there were many broken effects on raid gear procs that allowed them to hit higher than intended.

And these effects can't be adjusted as well. 

Honestly not sure why people defend a needless stat over just removing it and balancing the classes and gear itself !

[Crismorn]

You are blaming the wrong people.

Blame SoE for making the kiddie easymode everyone wins pvp system where the worst player on your server can get the same gear the very best do, raiding does not work like this and since there are very difficult raid encounters the loot is above and beyond what you can aquire in easymode everyone wins pvp.

I know it must be hard for you guys to swallow this and I also know that 1000's of you had full sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of it hitting live, 6+ months later 0 people have the very best pve gear because the mobs have not been killed yet.

Ask for a pvp system that is able to give you better rewards, asking for better rewards in a system where everyone wins is just not going to happen if anything bg/pvp gear is OP'd for the lack of pre-reqs and 0 difficulty required to obtain it.

[Darkor]

I hear raiders left and right, guess what? I dont raid. I spent my time PvPing all day and i still prefer real skill and better gear to matter than an overpowered mechanic that takes zero skill to get.

[Neskonlith]

Wolfsight@Nagafen wrote:

And these effects can't be adjusted as well. 

Honestly not sure why people defend a needless stat over just removing it and balancing the classes and gear itself !

I've been calling for adjustments to broken and OP PVE templates for a while, but since SOE laid off staff and the rest of the teams are very busy with the upcoming expansion, it is likely that there will not be enough time to make many more adjustments: SOE required ~56 days to fix broken resists.

[Crismorn]

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

I hear raiders left and right, guess what? I dont raid. I spent my time PvPing all day and i still prefer real skill and better gear to matter than an overpowered mechanic that takes zero skill to get.

Exactly, toughness is just dumb and bg/pvp gear is a complete joke to aquire

[Jab]

Crismorn wrote:

You are blaming the wrong people.

Blame SoE for making the kiddie easymode everyone wins pvp system where the worst player on your server can get the same gear the very best do, raiding does not work like this and since there are very difficult raid encounters the loot is above and beyond what you can aquire in easymode everyone wins pvp.

I know it must be hard for you guys to swallow this and I also know that 1000's of you had full sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of it hitting live, 6+ months later 0 people have the very best pve gear because the mobs have not been killed yet.

Ask for a pvp system that is able to give you better rewards, asking for better rewards in a system where everyone wins is just not going to happen if anything bg/pvp gear is OP'd for the lack of pre-reqs and 0 difficulty required to obtain it.

Pve raiding is so 90´s..

It is repetative and redundent.

We play on a pvp srv and as such pve gear should never be a winning factor like we have now.Sony is screwing over the majority of their playerbase by making raidgear better and much more desireable then pvp gear.It is plain stupid u need 30-40 dedicated ppl to get items for solo pvp..Its so old school tbh and once the old core of players are done with their playing "career" then this game is going down the drains due to its timesinks and slow progress..

Its like a car race, but instead of doing the actual race we are all busy building our cars.I want to race damnit, not build build build all the time<---- pve situation.

I want my gear and then i want to go pvp vs other ppl that are in the same boat as me <-----Pvp gear

This game has so much more to offer interms of difficulties then getting gear.Gear is just the first step of many to become a good pvper.

[Jab]

Crismorn wrote:

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

I hear raiders left and right, guess what? I dont raid. I spent my time PvPing all day and i still prefer real skill and better gear to matter than an overpowered mechanic that takes zero skill to get.

Exactly, toughness is just dumb and bg/pvp gear is a complete joke to aquire

Stop playing the game 24/7 then maybe the gear is not that easy to get.

Sure u dont need much to get gear but that is also fine,We are here to fight each other and not farm stupid gear all day like ppl as u apparently seem to love so much.I repeat go out and have fun irl,kick back with some friends,familily or what have u instead of living ur life online as a pathetich looser =) No punt intended

[Pavahac]

 What they need to do is make raiding gear exactly that, for raiding only, not to be used outside a raid zone. See fixed except raiders would be a little upset.

[Notsovilepriest]

Jabib@Nagafen wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

You are blaming the wrong people.

Blame SoE for making the kiddie easymode everyone wins pvp system where the worst player on your server can get the same gear the very best do, raiding does not work like this and since there are very difficult raid encounters the loot is above and beyond what you can aquire in easymode everyone wins pvp.

I know it must be hard for you guys to swallow this and I also know that 1000's of you had full sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of it hitting live, 6+ months later 0 people have the very best pve gear because the mobs have not been killed yet.

Ask for a pvp system that is able to give you better rewards, asking for better rewards in a system where everyone wins is just not going to happen if anything bg/pvp gear is OP'd for the lack of pre-reqs and 0 difficulty required to obtain it.

Pve raiding is so 90´s..

It is repetative and redundent.

We play on a pvp srv and as such pve gear should never be a winning factor like we have now.Sony is screwing over the majority of their playerbase by making raidgear better and much more desireable then pvp gear.It is plain stupid u need 30-40 dedicated ppl to get items for solo pvp..Its so old school tbh and once the old core of players are done with their playing "career" then this game is going down the drains due to its timesinks and slow progress..

Its like a car race, but instead of doing the actual race we are all busy building our cars.I want to race damnit, not build build build all the time<---- pve situation.

I want my gear and then i want to go pvp vs other ppl that are in the same boat as me <-----Pvp gear

Hey, I want all the tools for my toon at my fingertips, Thats why I started raiding. People are now lazy becasue PvP gear covers every slot, and they feel that zerging deserves equal rewards to raiding. Which isn't true. Old KoS PvP again would be amazing, that system was amazing

[Notsovilepriest]

Pavahac@Guk wrote:

 What they need to do is make raiding gear exactly that, for raiding only, not to be used outside a raid zone. See fixed except raiders would be a little upset.

Yes kill the raiding population in this game, Destroy a huge facet of the whole game. Terrible idea.

[Crismorn]

I agree that pvp gear should be the absolute best for pvp, but the reward system needs to reflect that.

You cant have 1000's of people with the very best pvp gear within a month of the xpac coming out on top of 0 pre-reqs, in order to have the very best gear in the game it needs to be difficult to obtain or no one would bother doing anything else.

95%+ of the player base will take the path of least resistance. if that path is spending a month pvping then thats what will happen and no one would bother raiding.

There needs to be a loss upon death OR the gear needs to take 6+ months of playing 15-25 hours per week in order to get a full set, one of those needs to happen in order to increase the current power of pvp gear.

[Crismorn]

Jabib@Nagafen wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

I hear raiders left and right, guess what? I dont raid. I spent my time PvPing all day and i still prefer real skill and better gear to matter than an overpowered mechanic that takes zero skill to get.

Exactly, toughness is just dumb and bg/pvp gear is a complete joke to aquire

Stop playing the game 24/7 then maybe the gear is not that easy to get.

Sure u dont need much to get gear but that is also fine,We are here to fight each other and not farm stupid gear all day like ppl as u apparently seem to love so much.I repeat go out and have fun irl,kick back with some friends,familily or what have u instead of living ur life online as a pathetich looser =) No punt intended

Um its rediculously easy to get.

1000's of people had entire sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of SF going live, theres another 11+ months of using the same exact gear.

Bobs really amazing at pvp, he wears the same gear that mentally challenege Steve wears because there is no loss in pvp, no pre-reqs and everyone wins.

Yes I play this game alot I play it so much that I have not logged in for 3 weeks.

I'm also sorry that you are incapable of managing your time throughout the day, it must be rough being 13 yrs old and having a clock confuse the hell out of you on a daily basis maybe you can see someone for that "condition"

[Jab]

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

Jabib@Nagafen wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

You are blaming the wrong people.

Blame SoE for making the kiddie easymode everyone wins pvp system where the worst player on your server can get the same gear the very best do, raiding does not work like this and since there are very difficult raid encounters the loot is above and beyond what you can aquire in easymode everyone wins pvp.

I know it must be hard for you guys to swallow this and I also know that 1000's of you had full sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of it hitting live, 6+ months later 0 people have the very best pve gear because the mobs have not been killed yet.

Ask for a pvp system that is able to give you better rewards, asking for better rewards in a system where everyone wins is just not going to happen if anything bg/pvp gear is OP'd for the lack of pre-reqs and 0 difficulty required to obtain it.

Pve raiding is so 90´s..

It is repetative and redundent.

We play on a pvp srv and as such pve gear should never be a winning factor like we have now.Sony is screwing over the majority of their playerbase by making raidgear better and much more desireable then pvp gear.It is plain stupid u need 30-40 dedicated ppl to get items for solo pvp..Its so old school tbh and once the old core of players are done with their playing "career" then this game is going down the drains due to its timesinks and slow progress..

Its like a car race, but instead of doing the actual race we are all busy building our cars.I want to race damnit, not build build build all the time<---- pve situation.

I want my gear and then i want to go pvp vs other ppl that are in the same boat as me <-----Pvp gear

Hey, I want all the tools for my toon at my fingertips, Thats why I started raiding. People are now lazy becasue PvP gear covers every slot, and they feel that zerging deserves equal rewards to raiding. Which isn't true. Old KoS PvP again would be amazing, that system was amazing

Kos was a joke.Incombat evac,cloud hopping,loads of broken mechanics I.E safehouse/reach just to name a few.

Only good thing about kos was that dmg ratio vs hp pools was more in sink..fights lasted somewhat fast but not so fast that u couldent change the outcome by some slick moves/combos.That i liked.

I have no poblem with raiders having extra tools at their disposal.But when it becomes raid or die then i draw the line..

[Crismorn]

Pavahac@Guk wrote:

 What they need to do is make raiding gear exactly that, for raiding only, not to be used outside a raid zone. See fixed except raiders would be a little upset.

They would not be upset, they would just not raid.

Why spend months playing at certain times, on certain days, with the same people, having to play at the highest level the entire duration when you can spend less then a month, log in whenever, solo is not only fine its the most common and you can roll your face across the keyboard, die to people endlessly and still wind up with an entire set of bg/pvp gear

[Notsovilepriest]

Jabib@Nagafen wrote:

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

Jabib@Nagafen wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

You are blaming the wrong people.

Blame SoE for making the kiddie easymode everyone wins pvp system where the worst player on your server can get the same gear the very best do, raiding does not work like this and since there are very difficult raid encounters the loot is above and beyond what you can aquire in easymode everyone wins pvp.

I know it must be hard for you guys to swallow this and I also know that 1000's of you had full sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of it hitting live, 6+ months later 0 people have the very best pve gear because the mobs have not been killed yet.

Ask for a pvp system that is able to give you better rewards, asking for better rewards in a system where everyone wins is just not going to happen if anything bg/pvp gear is OP'd for the lack of pre-reqs and 0 difficulty required to obtain it.

Pve raiding is so 90´s..

It is repetative and redundent.

We play on a pvp srv and as such pve gear should never be a winning factor like we have now.Sony is screwing over the majority of their playerbase by making raidgear better and much more desireable then pvp gear.It is plain stupid u need 30-40 dedicated ppl to get items for solo pvp..Its so old school tbh and once the old core of players are done with their playing "career" then this game is going down the drains due to its timesinks and slow progress..

Its like a car race, but instead of doing the actual race we are all busy building our cars.I want to race damnit, not build build build all the time<---- pve situation.

I want my gear and then i want to go pvp vs other ppl that are in the same boat as me <-----Pvp gear

Hey, I want all the tools for my toon at my fingertips, Thats why I started raiding. People are now lazy becasue PvP gear covers every slot, and they feel that zerging deserves equal rewards to raiding. Which isn't true. Old KoS PvP again would be amazing, that system was amazing

Kos was a joke.Incombat evac,cloud hopping,loads of broken mechanics I.E safehouse/reach just to name a few.

Only good thing about kos was that dmg ratio vs hp pools was more in sink..fights lasted somewhat fast but not so fast that u couldent change the outcome by some slick moves/combos.That i liked.

I have no poblem with raiders having extra tools at their disposal.But when it becomes raid or die then i draw the line..

Cloud hopping, that was in RoK too. Safehouse had some problems, but still. Then reach? Yeah I mean they only put that back in game in the form of an item. Almost everything they have removed before is not put back as an item, effect, or AA.

[Jab]

Crismorn wrote:

Jabib@Nagafen wrote:

Crismorn wrote:

Ajjantis@Nagafen wrote:

I hear raiders left and right, guess what? I dont raid. I spent my time PvPing all day and i still prefer real skill and better gear to matter than an overpowered mechanic that takes zero skill to get.

Exactly, toughness is just dumb and bg/pvp gear is a complete joke to aquire

Stop playing the game 24/7 then maybe the gear is not that easy to get.

Sure u dont need much to get gear but that is also fine,We are here to fight each other and not farm stupid gear all day like ppl as u apparently seem to love so much.I repeat go out and have fun irl,kick back with some friends,familily or what have u instead of living ur life online as a pathetich looser =) No punt intended

Um its rediculously easy to get.

1000's of people had entire sets of pvp/bg gear within a month of SF going live, theres another 11+ months of using the same exact gear.

Bobs really amazing at pvp, he wears the same gear that mentally challenege Steve wears because there is no loss in pvp, no pre-reqs and everyone wins.

Yes I play this game alot I play it so much that I have not logged in for 3 weeks.

I'm also sorry that you are incapable of managing your time throughout the day, it must be rough being 13 yrs old and having a clock confuse the hell out of you on a daily basis maybe you can see someone for that "condition"

I will agree that upping the cost wont break anything,nothing wrong wih a sense of accomplishment when u finally get ur full set of pvp gear.Guess we can meet in the middle on this when i think about it.

Bob will still own steve all day long so i cant really see why bob should be upset.I know its a strecth, but should ppl new to lets say counterstrike start out with a knife and be owned by ppl with AWP all day long ?? Just a thoguht experiment.

For the rest of ur post i can just say meh,What goes around comes around i guess =)

[Ralpmet]

What's upping the cost going to do when people have massive amounts of tokens saved up at the end of every expac anyway?

My coercer was geared day 1 of the original bg/pvp set at 90, and when they released the new gear I still had enough tokens to get most of that too (-charms/new chest. that's just out of laziness).

All you're doing by making things cost more is widening the gap between people who have played in the past and people that might play in the future.

Also, solo'ing might work just fine and dandy in the BG's but if you run out in open world PvP solo odds are you're going to run into 3 groups at once and be dead before the first guy even gets close enough to you due to the massive amounts of DPS that bows can deal, especially when multiple people are firing them at once.

[Jab]

Crismorn wrote:

Pavahac@Guk wrote:

 What they need to do is make raiding gear exactly that, for raiding only, not to be used outside a raid zone. See fixed except raiders would be a little upset.

They would not be upset, they would just not raid.

Why spend months playing at certain times, on certain days, with the same people, having to play at the highest level the entire duration when you can spend less then a month, log in whenever, solo is not only fine its the most common and you can roll your face across the keyboard, die to people endlessly and still wind up with an entire set of bg/pvp gear

All i can say is that back in the days there where tons more low tier pvp then end game pvp.All those ppl didnt raid so i guess raiders are in the minority.Problem is that on forum u are not a minority and as such our devs are being fed false info about their customers.Theres ur problem...

[Jab]

Ralpmet wrote:

What's upping the cost going to do when people have massive amounts of tokens saved up at the end of every expac anyway?

My coercer was geared day 1 of the original bg/pvp set at 90, and when they released the new gear I still had enough tokens to get most of that too (-charms/new chest. that's just out of laziness).

All you're doing by making things cost more is widening the gap between people who have played in the past and people that might play in the future.

Also, solo'ing might work just fine and dandy in the BG's but if you run out in open world PvP solo odds are you're going to run into 3 groups at once and be dead before the first guy even gets close enough to you due to the massive amounts of DPS that bows can deal, especially when multiple people are firing them at once.

True.

I was somewhat shocked that they allowed for tokens to transfer from one xpac to another.

well solo is always a hit or miss situation,especially if u play a non scout.But thats another problem all together..

[Morthore]

100% accurate statement here

[Morthore]

Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:

its 100% the case that the raiders cried like pansies the loudest and got exactly what they wanted, again... not a surprise, they are the loudest bunch of QQ'rs of them all... so they whined and cried and complained and B#$%ched and moaned until they got their way... to get raid gear #1 for everyhing on a PVP server once again... just like it was all through ROK and TSO...

they wanted to be able to fight a scripted mob with ACT telling them what to do and when to do it, at the end of which, come out and beat the living b'jesus out of people who were PVP'ng that whole same time...   its what they do best...  kill PVE mobs with timers and think they somehow deserve better PVP gear for doing so...   and once again, SOE gave it to them

[Crismorn]

You cannot have everyone on the server running around with entire sets of the best gear in the game within a month of xpac being released, its counter-productive to replayability and it would destroy every other gear path in eq2.

I'm sorry that the current reward system cannot give you better rewards, blame the right people and make a thread asking for a pvp system that is able to reward gear that is better then highend raid gear.

[Jab]

Crismorn wrote:

You cannot have everyone on the server running around with entire sets of the best gear in the game within a month of xpac being released, its counter-productive to replayability and it would destroy every other gear path in eq2.

I'm sorry that the current reward system cannot give you better rewards, blame the right people and make a thread asking for a pvp system that is able to reward gear that is better then highend raid gear.

Agree on the first part.

Ur second part would just result in alot of moaning from a handfull of ppl that "claim" they are spokespersons for the silent majority.I.E HC raiders.It would just be a trip back to pre gu58 im afraid with all the whining.

[Toxicz]

Once again, sounds like people are mistook toughness for skill, and are dying, and don't like it

Also Tanx I've never seen you out pvp.n, so your comments are irrelevant. Onyx has dominated pvp since i've been in it, you can call the gear card all you want. You fail to realize there the best for a reason, not because of the gear, but because they are some of the best players around, at least on our server. BTW Tanx you raid to get the best gear for your class, onyx does the same think, sorry if they happen to use it in pvp though.

So the care bears don't cry again, I like the nerf, it makes pvp fun again, its probably the best pvp I've had in a year or so. Fights don't last forever, yes people did die, but if you took 2 really good geared healers with full toughness and kinetic barrier procs along with a beast tank, a bard and coercer, that group would not die unless they were severely out-numbered

[Forebian]

I think part of the issue is that 'one-size-fits-all' toughness does not work.

Some classes (cloth) should have more toughness available and others (Plate) should have less. In other words...to properly balance PvP using toughness those who are most vulnerable should be able to improve their survivability more than those who are already very tough with twice the hitpoints.

Besides, as a caster resists come into play as well. So between toughness and resists some people were impossible to kill for a caster. However, besides adding physical mitigation and toughness there is much less cloth-wearers can do against melee/scout classes as their weapon damage is not reduced by any resists.