Token Reduction [Removed for Content]

[Ralpmet]

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

Ahlana

  I can def say gear aside when I am talking about 6 kills over all for token rewards.  Leave out what u do with the tokens, I am discussing HOW you obtain them.

You do realize pre-sf this is how the token system was right?

[Ahlana]

Stylish wrote:

So Demetro by your logic....

At lvl 10, doing quests should net the same gold for doing quests at 90 because its the same effort?

Yes by his "logic" it should also give the same amount of xp and such. As after all 1 quest for same rewards right?

[Kayaph]

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

Kayavh, I know that, I simply choose to spell it improperly as I am sure you do your own name in RL. 

I love how he is trying to state that I am the imbecile while I am the one that provided mathematical facts to back up what he is trying to refute. Makes my day that much better considering I am unable to play the game without it crashing when I click the left mouse button. lol.

Anyways, you are right to an extent, plasmapuppy, but shouldn't 90s be able to do that considering there gear is more expensive? Should we make it so that all mobs drop 6 copper like the ones in the starter zones so that the lowbies don't feel excluded? As it is right now, it is NOT a reward to get 5 tokens / writ at T10 because you have to complete 1.5 POSTERS to get a single item in T10. I can't check the new prices because I can't leave Chrono SF because if I click I crash. 

I appreciate the people that actually have used the math that I provided in regards to furthering a debatable point in this thread, as Demetrio obviously is here just to try and start a flame war and failed miserably. He wanted to run around screaming the world is ending because he now gets a similar reward to 90s. 

NEWS FLASH: The gear is comparable to a T10 (90) toon. You don't get potency because you don't need it. You shouldn't get 64 wis on your level 40 healer item because that would be game breaking. Instead, they give you something that allows you to fight +5^^ mobs and fight PC's (Player characters) at the same time. I don't know why this is SOOO hard to understand, but apparently some people actually can fail at life (schooling maybe?).

[Ahlana]

Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

Kayavh, I know that, I simply choose to spell it improperly as I am sure you do your own name in RL. 

I love how he is trying to state that I am the imbecile while I am the one that provided mathematical facts to back up what he is trying to refute.

Seriously we all know he is trolling. No one can actually be that dense.. so with that I am done with this thread lol. It is like arguing with a wall.

[Kayaph]

Ahlana wrote:

Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

Kayavh, I know that, I simply choose to spell it improperly as I am sure you do your own name in RL. 

I love how he is trying to state that I am the imbecile while I am the one that provided mathematical facts to back up what he is trying to refute.

Seriously we all know he is trolling. No one can actually be that dense.. so with that I am done with this thread lol. It is like arguing with a wall.

I am done here as well, though if any of you are on the Q side and would like to group up with a Warden who is pretty good at healing in Pvp situations after betraying over from Freeport side, hit me up. Jobao. 

It was nice to meet (MOST) of you on this thread, Demetrio I look forward to many free 1 token writs killing you.

[plasmapuppy]

Are PvP tokens no longer heirloom?  That would help keep the PvP tiers fair.  Otherwise, high level alts earn much higher rewards (5 tokens per writ) to feed their low level toons that are only capable of earning 1 token per writ. 

[Kayaph]

plasmapuppy wrote:

Are PvP tokens no longer heirloom?  That would help keep the PvP tiers fair.  Otherwise, high level alts earn much higher rewards (5 tokens per writ) to feed their low level toons that are only capable of earning 1 token per writ. 

The way that I (and others I have spoken with) view it, it is a reward for obtaining end game credentials. Similar to the fact that they removed No Trade from the game and replaced it with Heirloom. Should you be able to go back and farm Raid instances for Fabled/Mythical gear for your lowbie toons? This is the same thing in my opinion. You earn these with your higher toons to get stuff for your lower toons. Should money be non transferrable? You can go and buy rares with the money you earned on your higher toons to feed to your lower toons to make them better.

When do we stop making stuff transferable? Should EVERYTHING  be no trade so that it is fair to lowbie toons?

[Verodio]

One of my favorite things about forums is that there's always some idiot (Demetrio) who thinks that everyone else is stupid.

[Nemas Ravenor]

Thank god for this change. 

Now, let's address the mindset of the players complaining about it.  What is the thing that upsets you the most?  Taking longer to get gear.

So what is your answer?  I'll just leave the server to go to BGs for gear. 

You have a GEAR GEAR GEAR mindset, not a "hey it's fun to pvp while playing this game" mindset.  And that's what has brought this game to its knees in the last two years since the TSO token exchange fiasco which created the KP zerg. 

Unfortunately, the developers seem to like the zerg which is why they created the Warfield scenarios in the first place.  But at least we have gotten through to them that gear was too easy to obtain at lower levels.  Now we just need them to get rid of warfields and battlegrounds entirely and we'll be doing better.

[plasmapuppy]

Certainly veterans should earn some benefits but is earning 5x the PvP tokens a reasonable benefit?  That seems far more than anything the leechers were earning.

And yes, at some level everything should be no-trade... at least on the PvP server.  Players who want to compete against the game should play PvE.  Those wanting good PvP should strive to keep a much more level playing field... else you are just another form of leecher lobbying for something that only benefits yourself.

[Crismorn]

I can see both sides, one side is [Removed for Content] off because they were only given a few 100 tokens where the other side is happy because they were given a few 1000 tokens.

Should have left it all as is until next xpac and just removed level ranges instead.

[oneeyedlotus]

Since when was T3 gear equal to 90 gear?  IF it were equal i could understand your arguement but its no where near as good even scaled down, most pieces dont have procs or have .5% blue stats if any.  Why is there so much hate for the T4 people from the 90s?

[Kayaph]

Vade@Nagafen wrote:

Since when was T3 gear equal to 90 gear?  IF it were equal i could understand your arguement but its no where near as good even scaled down, most pieces dont have procs or have .5% blue stats if any.  Why is there so much hate for the T4 people from the 90s?

Explain why they should get their gear faster than a comparable 90 should get their gear than? Please, elaborate why they should get the same reward for less work. They kill 6 people they get 5 tokens, right? That means they kill 30 people they get a nice chest. Should the 90 only have to kill 30 people to get their chest as well? If not, how come it can't be standardized? What's wrong with making it closer to the same effort it should be? You know why I created this character? So at 12 I could start farming TD/DLW of Freeps for my 5 token writs to give to my higher toons since lowbies are easier to kill than comparable 90s.

That is what it amounts to. I can one shot most characters as a 17 dirge, and blow through their ward in less than one rotation if they have the 15 gear, with no problem. In less than 10 minutes I can have a full writ completed. Should I get the same reward as my 90 Paladin gets than? I don't think so. I am okay with that.

You still get a LARGER reward than 90s get, as your gear still MATHEMATICALLY costs half of what my 90 Paladin's gear costs, not to mention the status price. If I had it my way I would keep the token change and make T4/5 gear double in price so that it takes the same amount of effort to make a T4/5 twink pvp toon as it does a T9/10 twink pvp toon.

EDIT: Also I forgot if we mentor down, our blue stats mean jack squat in the fact that we can't defend ourselves, so my EXTRA 1.3% CRIT DOESN"T MATTER since I can't hit you.

[plasmapuppy]

How is it fun to play againsts a fully geared alt played by someone who earned 5x the PvP tokens than you? 

Since PvP gear tips the scale of level play so significantly, each toon should have to earn their own.  No sugar daddies.

[Neskonlith]

plasmapuppy wrote:

Certainly veterans should earn some benefits but is earning 5x the PvP tokens a reasonable benefit?  That seems far more than anything the leechers were earning.

Full set of T10 gear costs ~2500 Tokens - what does a full set of T2 cost?  ~200 tokens?

T2 is getting gear practically for free as it is, for such little effort in comparison.

[oneeyedlotus]

Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:

Vade@Nagafen wrote:

Since when was T3 gear equal to 90 gear?  IF it were equal i could understand your arguement but its no where near as good even scaled down, most pieces dont have procs or have .5% blue stats if any.  Why is there so much hate for the T4 people from the 90s?

Explain why they should get their gear faster than a comparable 90 should get their gear than? Please, elaborate why they should get the same reward for less work. They kill 6 people they get 5 tokens, right? That means they kill 30 people they get a nice chest. Should the 90 only have to kill 30 people to get their chest as well? If not, how come it can't be standardized? What's wrong with making it closer to the same effort it should be? You know why I created this character? So at 12 I could start farming TD/DLW of Freeps for my 5 token writs to give to my higher toons since lowbies are easier to kill than comparable 90s.

That is what it amounts to. I can one shot most characters as a 17 dirge, and blow through their ward in less than one rotation if they have the 15 gear, with no problem. In less than 10 minutes I can have a full writ completed. Should I get the same reward as my 90 Paladin gets than? I don't think so. I am okay with that.

You still get a LARGER reward than 90s get, as your gear still MATHEMATICALLY costs half of what my 90 Paladin's gear costs, not to mention the status price. If I had it my way I would keep the token change and make T4/5 gear double in price so that it takes the same amount of effort to make a T4/5 twink pvp toon as it does a T9/10 twink pvp toon.

EDIT: Also I forgot if we mentor down, our blue stats mean jack squat in the fact that we can't defend ourselves, so my EXTRA 1.3% CRIT DOESN"T MATTER since I can't hit you.

Your experience with a level 17 has what bearing on T4?  During weekends and non peak time weekends your lucky to find any T4 PvP, where as 90 is everywhere.  There is simply less players to kill if there were as many T4 as 90's maybe you'd have an arguement.

[skylancer]

Lower tier gear costs less, lvl up and play high end if you want more tokens.

Deal with it.

[plasmapuppy]

The basis of my arguement is that it is FOOLISH to earn PvP gear at 1 token per writ.  Have your level 90 main earn your gear at 5 tokens per writ.

[plasmapuppy]

Deal with it as you dealt with the leechers? 

Make PvP tokens strickly no-trade.

[Kayaph]

plasmapuppy wrote:

How is it fun to play againsts a fully geared alt played by someone who earned 5x the PvP tokens than you? 

Since PvP gear tips the scale of level play so significantly, each toon should have to earn their own.  No sugar daddies.

So you can't trade rares either. You can't trade plat to lower toons. You have to craft your own skills, and mastercrafted armor. Oh wait! You can only choose one of 9 professions. Hmm. scout choose alchemy or skills.. Hmm.. Oh wait! This game is meant to share items between characters. I should be more like these others and go..

QQ some more

[Kayaph]

plasmapuppy wrote:

The basis of my arguement is that it is FOOLISH to earn PvP gear at 1 token per writ.  Have your level 90 main earn your gear at 5 tokens per writ.

Than make the T10 gear cost significantly less or make the t4/5 gear cost significantly more to bring it more in line with the cost of equivalent gear for the tiers. It isn't that hard of a concept. Your t4/5 gear is awesome for the levels, yet you (used to) get it so easily. 

Makes me glad my Defiler is staying t4, 39 locked. Now I just need to powerlevel it's aa. ) Still going to be a high end healer in CL/ANT wfs with no need to worry about tokens and all tokens I do get are gravy. Because I don't chase gear, I chase fun.

NOTE: Sorry for double post, he posted this while I was replying to an earlier message of his.

[plasmapuppy]

I'm just suggesting restricting PvP gear (tokens), which are not sold on the broker.  I'm not an extremist or a drama queen.

PvP gear is amazingly cheap to buy for a low level alt and now vastly more difficult to earn as a newbie player.  Does that make PvP fun to play?  Does that grow our community? 

[Kayaph]

Vade@Nagafen wrote:

Kayaph@Nagafen wrote:

Vade@Nagafen wrote:

Since when was T3 gear equal to 90 gear?  IF it were equal i could understand your arguement but its no where near as good even scaled down, most pieces dont have procs or have .5% blue stats if any.  Why is there so much hate for the T4 people from the 90s?

Explain why they should get their gear faster than a comparable 90 should get their gear than? Please, elaborate why they should get the same reward for less work. They kill 6 people they get 5 tokens, right? That means they kill 30 people they get a nice chest. Should the 90 only have to kill 30 people to get their chest as well? If not, how come it can't be standardized? What's wrong with making it closer to the same effort it should be? You know why I created this character? So at 12 I could start farming TD/DLW of Freeps for my 5 token writs to give to my higher toons since lowbies are easier to kill than comparable 90s.

That is what it amounts to. I can one shot most characters as a 17 dirge, and blow through their ward in less than one rotation if they have the 15 gear, with no problem. In less than 10 minutes I can have a full writ completed. Should I get the same reward as my 90 Paladin gets than? I don't think so. I am okay with that.

You still get a LARGER reward than 90s get, as your gear still MATHEMATICALLY costs half of what my 90 Paladin's gear costs, not to mention the status price. If I had it my way I would keep the token change and make T4/5 gear double in price so that it takes the same amount of effort to make a T4/5 twink pvp toon as it does a T9/10 twink pvp toon.

EDIT: Also I forgot if we mentor down, our blue stats mean jack squat in the fact that we can't defend ourselves, so my EXTRA 1.3% CRIT DOESN"T MATTER since I can't hit you.

Your experience with a level 17 has what bearing on T4?  During weekends and non peak time weekends your lucky to find any T4 PvP, where as 90 is everywhere.  There is simply less players to kill if there were as many T4 as 90's maybe you'd have an arguement.

I also have a t4 39 defiler pvp locked. SO I have a BIT of experience with T4 since it has dreadnaught title.

[Extraordina]

I love how you all called me a [Removed for Content] and yet not one of you actually could refute my point.  My point had nothing to do with gear or tokens for gear, or being 90 vs being 30 and how long it takes to get fully geared out.

My point was simple.  Try to refute that a lvl 30 has less of a token reward killing 6 people in PvP.  Refute that without resorting to mathmatical calulations about how many tokens vs gear it takes etc etc. 

90's gear is end game pvp gear.  It should take longer period.  Just like it takes time to raid for 90's gear.  Level 30's pvp gear is not level 90 gear, not by stats and not by level so please spare me the applying of comparing tokens vs time.  Please explain to me how a lvl 90 should even care about the gear of a lvl 30 in the first place?  How does it impact you at all?  Oh wait....it doesn't.

Bottom line is very simple.  If you deminish the rewards for equal people killed that is just wrong when combined with the other recent changes.  I fail to see how everyone rages on me about this fact.

I believe you should keep the theme of 1 more pvp kill for the amount of tokens provided as a reward.  Therefore, given the nature of the changes in their totality, I feel it would be entirely justified to ask that changes be made to this deminished returns in the following way:

2 kills = 1 token

3 kills = 2 tokens

4 kills = 3 tokens

5 kills = 4 tokens

6 kills = 5 tokens

Apply that to the respective tiers and I believe all is fair in terms of accomplishment vs reward.

Please drop the accusations that I am stupid, or a troll.  I have not trolled at all on this.  Everyone has raged on me like I insulted their mothers ffs.  Examine what I am saying before you simply bring up an arguement of requirements at lvl 90 for gear or that I am an idiot etc.  Nothing I have said is idiotic, quite the contrary it is thought out and presented logically, not ilogically as some of said.  If you do not understand what I am saying don't spout out that I am illogical, I've very clear in what I have said.  The only arguement I have seen so far is:

"F__K that, you're a [Removed for Content] because it takes me way longer at lvl 90 to get it so it should take you as long...." 

That type of reponse is an avoidance of the fact that my argument is logical and applicable and there is no justifying it based upon what other tiers have to do.

As stated, there is PvP aplenty at 90.  Hell go to stoneburnt if you dare question that.  Not so much at lower tiers and granted I agree people leeched like crazy, but don't you DARE try to tell me or anyone else that you did not partake in that leeching yourself.  Because you're only trying to fool yourself if you do.  I am just saying, lets not eliminate PvP outside of 70+ just because you want it to take as long at 30 as it does at 90 to get gear.  There simply is no compairing the 90 gear to ANY other tier.  I don't want my alts to be relegated to BG's as I am sure many people don't want that either.

[sdaigneault]

I support the change. Thanks SOE. Low-level leachers - tough luck.

[Eritius]

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

Listen, you are comparing the cost of 90's gear to 30's gear.  Personally, I think the token rewards are far to low period.  However, comparing items as over powered in stats at lvl 90's gear to 30's gear or making that argument at all is ludacris. 

THE POINT of what I am saying is simple:

6 kills = 5 tokens.  Period.  Not 1, not 2, not 3 and not 4.  It should equal 5.  How about SOE changes it so 90's get 1 token rewarded for 6 kills.  You'd lose your mind.

Facts are facts.  Same effort for less tokens is stupid.  Costs regardless for items.  It's stupid.

I wish BG's worked like that. Six kills for 5 tokens? Heck of alot better then 3 tokens for winning, 1 if you don't. Though I'm not sure of the costs for the writ gear for that tier. Maybe its a heck of alot more then 90-105 for a piece of gear. If thats the case, carry on. If not... well...

[Stylish]

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

I love how you all called me a [Removed for Content] and yet not one of you actually could refute my point.  My point had nothing to do with gear or tokens for gear, or being 90 vs being 30 and how long it takes to get fully geared out.

My point was simple.  Try to refute that a lvl 30 has less of a token reward killing 6 people in PvP.  Refute that without resorting to mathmatical calulations about how many tokens vs gear it takes etc etc. 

90's gear is end game pvp gear.  It should take longer period.  Just like it takes time to raid for 90's gear.  Level 30's pvp gear is not level 90 gear, not by stats and not by level so please spare me the applying of comparing tokens vs time.  Please explain to me how a lvl 90 should even care about the gear of a lvl 30 in the first place?  How does it impact you at all?  Oh wait....it doesn't.

Bottom line is very simple.  If you deminish the rewards for equal people killed that is just wrong when combined with the other recent changes.  I fail to see how everyone rages on me about this fact.

I believe you should keep the theme of 1 more pvp kill for the amount of tokens provided as a reward.  Therefore, given the nature of the changes in their totality, I feel it would be entirely justified to ask that changes be made to this deminished returns in the following way:

2 kills = 1 token

3 kills = 2 tokens

4 kills = 3 tokens

5 kills = 4 tokens

6 kills = 5 tokens

Apply that to the respective tiers and I believe all is fair in terms of accomplishment vs reward.

Please drop the accusations that I am stupid, or a troll.  I have not trolled at all on this.  Everyone has raged on me like I insulted their mothers ffs.  Examine what I am saying before you simply bring up an arguement of requirements at lvl 90 for gear or that I am an idiot etc.  Nothing I have said is idiotic, quite the contrary it is thought out and presented logically, not ilogically as some of said.  If you do not understand what I am saying don't spout out that I am illogical, I've very clear in what I have said.  The only arguement I have seen so far is:

"F__K that, you're a [Removed for Content] because it takes me way longer at lvl 90 to get it so it should take you as long...." 

That type of reponse is an avoidance of the fact that my argument is logical and applicable and there is no justifying it based upon what other tiers have to do.

As stated, there is PvP aplenty at 90.  Hell go to stoneburnt if you dare question that.  Not so much at lower tiers and granted I agree people leeched like crazy, but don't you DARE try to tell me or anyone else that you did not partake in that leeching yourself.  Because you're only trying to fool yourself if you do.  I am just saying, lets not eliminate PvP outside of 70+ just because you want it to take as long at 30 as it does at 90 to get gear.  There simply is no compairing the 90 gear to ANY other tier.  I don't want my alts to be relegated to BG's as I am sure many people don't want that either.

So Demetro by your logic....

At lvl 10, doing quests should net the same gold for doing quests at 90 because its the same effort?

I mean...forget what you're doing with the gold?

FFS your logic blows me away

[Extraordina]

So Demetro by your logic....

At lvl 10, doing quests should net the same gold for doing quests at 90 because its the same effort?

I mean...forget what you're doing with the gold?

FFS your logic blows me away

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, what are you talking about?  Please point out where I mentioned gold or level 10 quests. And sorry, but no your attempted mocking assessment of my logic is not accurate at all.  Lets talk about oranges when we are discussing apples according to you.

Again, keep avoiding the point.  Lets bring more random stuff into this shall we? 

Your logic blows me away since it does not address the topic at hand at all.

[Pavahac]

 This has to be one of the funniest threads I have ever read. See if i can understand your logic. My big brother gets to stay up longer than me and its not fair. T-10 gets 30 gold for completing a quest and a T-4 only gets 90 silver thats not fair. Do I understand your logic here?

[Stylish]

Demetrio@Nagafen wrote:

So Demetro by your logic....

At lvl 10, doing quests should net the same gold for doing quests at 90 because its the same effort?

I mean...forget what you're doing with the gold?

FFS your logic blows me away

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, what are you talking about?  Please point out where I mentioned gold or level 10 quests. And sorry, but no your attempted mocking assessment of my logic is not accurate at all.  Lets talk about oranges when we are discussing apples according to you.

Again, keep avoiding the point.  Lets bring more random stuff into this shall we? 

Your logic blows me away since it does not address the topic at hand at all.

Its a perfect analogy of your fail logic. I am sorry you do not understand analogies...