Contested Need to Go

[slippery]

Because the server performance is terrible and lag dictates when you can kill the hard mob.

[Hamervelder]

That's understandable, but at the same time, guilds have been competing for contested mobs for years, server lag (and player-induced lag) and all.  Granted, the lag up in Sundered Frontier and Stonebrunt Highlands is horrible most of the time, but that's no reason to do away with the tiered-difficulty encounters.  I'm not trying to be snarky, but if X raiding guild is really that awesome, then they should be able to deal with the server lag and kill the hard mode.  After all, Y non-raiding guild is killing it on easy mode, and if they can deal with server lag, then so can the hard-core people.  If they're really that much better.

Honestly, it just sounds to me like a few people who are used to their exclusive circles are a bit upset that more people can try contested mobs now.  That mentality is normal, and arguably reasonable.  It's no fun when you suddenly have to compete with people with whom you may not feel that you should have to compete.  However, the mobs are called 'contested' for a reason.  If people want to kill it, then they should pull it first.  Asking to do away with contested mobs just because X hard-core guild now has to compete with Y 'casual' guild is a bit selfish, and I dare say, in complete contrast to the nature of what fighting contested mobs is all about.

Quick edit, because it's early, and apparently, I can't spell this early in the morning.

[Kunaak]

from todays update notes.... I dont see any mention of hard mode contested anything....

no changes mentiond.

[slippery]

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

That's understandable, but at the same time, guilds have been competing for contested mobs for years, server lag (and player-induced lag) and all.  Granted, the lag up in Sundered Frontier and Stonebrunt Highlands is horrible most of the time, but that's no reason to do away with the tiered-difficulty encounters.  I'm not trying to be snarky, but if X raiding guild is really that awesome, then they should be able to deal with the server lag and kill the hard mode.  After all, Y non-raiding guild is killing it on easy mode, and if they can deal with server lag, then so can the hard-core people.  If they're really that much better.

Honestly, it just sounds to me like a few people who are used to their exclusive circles are a bit upset that more people can try contested mobs now.  That mentality is normal, and arguably reasonable.  It's no fun when you suddenly have to compete with people with whom you may not feel that you should have to compete.  However, the mobs are called 'contested' for a reason.  If people want to kill it, then they should pull it first.  Asking to do away with contested mobs just because X hard-core guild now has to compete with Y 'casual' guild is a bit selfish, and I dare say, in complete contrast to the nature of what fighting contested mobs is all about.

Quick edit, because it's early, and apparently, I can't spell this early in the morning.

Easy mode = easy. 2 groupable encounter. Hard mode = 100 million hit points in 225 seconds.

You figure out why lag might have an impact.

[Hamervelder]

slippery wrote:

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

That's understandable, but at the same time, guilds have been competing for contested mobs for years, server lag (and player-induced lag) and all.  Granted, the lag up in Sundered Frontier and Stonebrunt Highlands is horrible most of the time, but that's no reason to do away with the tiered-difficulty encounters.  I'm not trying to be snarky, but if X raiding guild is really that awesome, then they should be able to deal with the server lag and kill the hard mode.  After all, Y non-raiding guild is killing it on easy mode, and if they can deal with server lag, then so can the hard-core people.  If they're really that much better.

Honestly, it just sounds to me like a few people who are used to their exclusive circles are a bit upset that more people can try contested mobs now.  That mentality is normal, and arguably reasonable.  It's no fun when you suddenly have to compete with people with whom you may not feel that you should have to compete.  However, the mobs are called 'contested' for a reason.  If people want to kill it, then they should pull it first.  Asking to do away with contested mobs just because X hard-core guild now has to compete with Y 'casual' guild is a bit selfish, and I dare say, in complete contrast to the nature of what fighting contested mobs is all about.

Quick edit, because it's early, and apparently, I can't spell this early in the morning.

Easy mode = easy. 2 groupable encounter. Hard mode = 100 million hit points in 225 seconds.

You figure out why lag might have an impact.

I'm sure that lag does have an impact.  I'm just saying that lag always has had an impact.  Were you never around in the 'old days', for instance, when competing guilds would set off fireworks en masse to try to lag a guild that was pulling so badly that they'd wipe?  Dealing with lag (whether server-side or player-induced) is nothing new.  Furthermore, removing the easy mode encounters won't do anything to solve the lag, or make the hard mode encounters more manageable, so the argument to remove the easy mode fails when using lag as a reason. 

[Orienne]

I'm pretty sure that you are not understanding the point that is being made on the easy / hard mode contested mobs Illiam. While the point you continue to make is a valid one, it does not apply to the current conversation.

In the "old days" as you pointed out, a contested mob would spawn, and either 1 or more guilds would move to "contest" it. Guild A pulls the mob, and let's say for instance Guild B has an ego complex and they will simply DIE if another guild kills this contested in their faces, then they may or may not do what you said which is to cause unnecessary lag to Guild A mid pull in the hopes it will wipe their raid so Guild B can then pull the mob. If anyone were to complain about this form of contested mob being up simply because they will go emo if they lose it, then they have problems. This, however does not affect the tiered contested that we currently have.

In this expansion, we have 2 contested mobs. Let's say for instance that Oxdaxius pops and 2 guilds notice this who have an interest in killing him. Guild A needs nothing from this mob, but they are ready to work on the hard mode version which requires the easy version to die to spawn it. Guild B can actually use the items off the easy mode as upgrades to improve their raid. Both guilds because of this show up to the mob, and Guild A pulls first. They kill the easy mode quickly and spawn the hard. Now you have 225 seconds to burn down a mob with multiple mem wiping adds, who has roughly around 100 million hit points. The zone needs to have little to no lag at all, or even the best guilds will not be able to do this encounter in enough time. Guild A for reasons of zone lag fails to put out enough dps to kill the mob in 3 minutes 45 seconds, so the fail effect triggers and they wipe. Now Guild B has their chance to pull, and they are after the easy mode which is super easy as anyone who raids can tell you I'm sure. Guild B gets their kill and their loot, and now Guild A has to wait until the easy mode respawns in over 3 days to have a shot at the hard mode again.

That is the issue people are bringing up, the fact that the easy mode is a completely different fight than the hard mode, and 1 should not affect the other. The best route they could go with this model of contested would be to spawn the easy mode, and when that is killed the hard mode spawns and stays up for all to try until the 3 day window is up, and then the easy mode will spawn again starting all over. This way the guilds who want to try the hard mode, and the guilds who still can use the easy mode gear are both happy. Having 1 mob die and affect a completely different mobs spawn cycle was never a good idea.

[Yimway]

Orienne wrote:

In this expansion, we have 2 contested mobs. Let's say for instance that Oxdaxius pops and 2 guilds notice this who have an interest in killing him. Guild A needs nothing from this mob, but they are ready to work on the hard mode version which requires the easy version to die to spawn it. Guild B can actually use the items off the easy mode as upgrades to improve their raid. Both guilds because of this show up to the mob, and Guild A pulls first. They kill the easy mode quickly and spawn the hard. Now you have 225 seconds to burn down a mob with multiple mem wiping adds, who has roughly around 100 million hit points. The zone needs to have little to no lag at all, or even the best guilds will not be able to do this encounter in enough time. Guild A for reasons of zone lag fails to put out enough dps to kill the mob in 3 minutes 45 seconds, so the fail effect triggers and they wipe. Now Guild B has their chance to pull, and they are after the easy mode which is super easy as anyone who raids can tell you I'm sure. Guild B gets their kill and their loot, and now Guild A has to wait until the easy mode respawns in over 3 days to have a shot at the hard mode again.

Yeap, thats exactly how it works, and the system is working exactly as it was intended.

Guild A in your example now has the same issues to deal with if Guild B was also after the hardmode.  Fact is on most servers there is/was only Guild A after the mob and thus it was never a 'contested spawn'.

The change was to make it exactly as you described so that the spawn itself is contested and Guild A has to be as good as they would have to be to get the kill if there was multiple guilds on the server capable of killing it.

I can certainly see how many think this is unfair as they are being denied a spawn by a guild not as good as them, but you've got your chance to pull it first and kill it, so I hope you can get it done.

SoE intentionally designed the new contesteds so they would be just that, contested spawns.  I don't see them changing it since it is working exactly as they designed it to work.

Surely you can agree it makes the takedown more significant now than previously where only 1 guild / server (on most) was even pulling the 'contested' mob.

[Xill]

Orienne wrote:

That is the issue people are bringing up, the fact that the easy mode is a completely different fight than the hard mode, and 1 should not affect the other. The best route they could go with this model of contested would be to spawn the easy mode, and when that is killed the hard mode spawns and stays up for all to try until the 3 day window is up, and then the easy mode will spawn again starting all over. This way the guilds who want to try the hard mode, and the guilds who still can use the easy mode gear are both happy. Having 1 mob die and affect a completely different mobs spawn cycle was never a good idea.

Except that in that instance... the guild after hard mode would simply kill the easy mode, sell the loot to the other guild waiting to get a turn at easy mode, then pull hard mode. Otherwise would they stand around and wait for a guild to come kill easy mode if they wanted hard or wait for them to actually get it down? No.

So either way 1 guild does not get what they want unless both/either guild in the situation is being extra nice. And if they are... then it wouldnt matter because you can work it out with the other guild that is interested to trade mobs. One time its up, guild A kills easy, next time guild B gets to try hard and potentially kill it.

But if they are trying to be jerks... well the "scrub" guild has just as much opportunity to block the hardcore guild. And that seems to be the issue.

And I like the way Atan put it. Its a contested SPAWN. Not a contested MOB. Better that way imho...

[Kreton]

Xill wrote:

Except that in that instance... the guild after hard mode would simply kill the easy mode, sell the loot to the other guild waiting to get a turn at easy mode, then pull hard mode. Otherwise would they stand around and wait for a guild to come kill easy mode if they wanted hard or wait for them to actually get it down? No.

So either way 1 guild does not get what they want unless both/either guild in the situation is being extra nice. And if they are... then it wouldnt matter because you can work it out with the other guild that is interested to trade mobs. One time its up, guild A kills easy, next time guild B gets to try hard and potentially kill it.

But if they are trying to be jerks... well the "scrub" guild has just as much opportunity to block the hardcore guild. And that seems to be the issue.

And I like the way Atan put it. Its a contested SPAWN. Not a contested MOB. Better that way imho...

And what exactly is preventing this scenerio from the current way things are?  If a guild really cares about denying an easy spawn just for the sake of denying another guild at his horrible loot table, or even to sell to loot, they can do that now.  It doesn't have to be split spawns for them to do this, so how exactly does splitting them up suddenly cause this to happen?  Holding off from killing it just to hope nobody kills it so that it's still up at odd hours of the morning doesn't happen.  The easy mode mob is too easy to kill and doesn't stay up when other guilds see that is up.  While the hard mode is unplayable at anything but off hours when nobody is in the zone.

[Gaige]

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Maybe I just don't understand the way that the mechanics work here (because I haven't pulled one of the tiered-difficulty contested mobs) but if your guild gets there first, can you not just kill the mob in hard-mode?  If it's all about competition, then why don't you just go and kill the mob before the 'regular' (for lack of a better term) guilds?  If you aren't getting to the mob first and dropping it in hard-mode, then that's your issue, not someone else's.  Correct?

Probably because server performance doesn't allow us to do the required DPS for the HM encounter until after 10pm pst. So our only choice earlier would be just to kill EM, which we don't need anything from, which would cause us to lose out on HM.

[Gaige]

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I'm sure that lag does have an impact.  I'm just saying that lag always has had an impact.  Were you never around in the 'old days', for instance, when competing guilds would set off fireworks en masse to try to lag a guild that was pulling so badly that they'd wipe?  Dealing with lag (whether server-side or player-induced) is nothing new.  Furthermore, removing the easy mode encounters won't do anything to solve the lag, or make the hard mode encounters more manageable, so the argument to remove the easy mode fails when using lag as a reason. 

You're not paying attention at all.

HM Ox requires, REQUIRES, at least 400k sustained raid dps for almost 4 minutes.  Other contested the lag sucks, but like HM Klaak it doesn't have a DPS requirement so you can battle through the lag for an hour or more if needed to kill the mob.

HM Ox if its not dead in the ~4 min timeframe you automatically wipe and have to start over.

[Gaige]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

I don't see them changing it since it is working exactly as they designed it to work.

Open your eyes then imo:

Kander wrote:

Hey guys!

We really like the idea of the easy mode being killed and the hard mode staying up for the duration of the respawn. We are going to go ahead and go forward to make this happen as soon as possible. We are going to also work on a better solution in the interim and plan for it going forward.

The hard mode contested loot will also receive some love as soon as possible. I have gotten quite a few PMs and I will see that this happens post haste.

Time frame? We will try to have the current solution for the contest out within the next week or two.

Loot should be within the next 5 to 10 days.

Thanks for your patience and understanding!

[Xill]

Gaige wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

I don't see them changing it since it is working exactly as they designed it to work.

Open your eyes then imo:

Kander wrote:

Hey guys!

We really like the idea of the easy mode being killed and the hard mode staying up for the duration of the respawn. We are going to go ahead and go forward to make this happen as soon as possible. We are going to also work on a better solution in the interim and plan for it going forward.

The hard mode contested loot will also receive some love as soon as possible. I have gotten quite a few PMs and I will see that this happens post haste.

Time frame? We will try to have the current solution for the contest out within the next week or two.

Loot should be within the next 5 to 10 days.

Thanks for your patience and understanding!

Hm... 5 to 10? You might want to check the date on his post gaige... over a month ago now. And it missed the GU...

[Hamervelder]

Gaige wrote:

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I'm sure that lag does have an impact.  I'm just saying that lag always has had an impact.  Were you never around in the 'old days', for instance, when competing guilds would set off fireworks en masse to try to lag a guild that was pulling so badly that they'd wipe?  Dealing with lag (whether server-side or player-induced) is nothing new.  Furthermore, removing the easy mode encounters won't do anything to solve the lag, or make the hard mode encounters more manageable, so the argument to remove the easy mode fails when using lag as a reason. 

You're not paying attention at all.

HM Ox requires, REQUIRES, at least 400k sustained raid dps for almost 4 minutes.  Other contested the lag sucks, but like HM Klaak it doesn't have a DPS requirement so you can battle through the lag for an hour or more if needed to kill the mob.

HM Ox if its not dead in the ~4 min timeframe you automatically wipe and have to start over.

Oh, I get it, Gaige.  I understand the lag issue completely.  Guilds come in and kill Ox when there's little server lag, so you can't kill him later when it's not primetime.  As Atan said though, it's a contested spawn.  If you want it bad enough, then you'll find a way to get it done.

[Gaige]

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Oh, I get it, Gaige.  I understand the lag issue completely.  Guilds come in and kill Ox when there's little server lag, so you can't kill him later when it's not primetime.  As Atan said though, it's a contested spawn.  If you want it bad enough, then you'll find a way to get it done.

Listen, my guild would have no problem two grouping easy Ox within 5 mins of spawn every spawn locking it down on Unrest forever.  

"Wanting it bad enough" - doesn't mean the servers are performing well enough to sustain 400k+ raid dps for the almost 4 mins that it requires to kill HM Ox.

So while the lag doesn't ever matter on easy mode because it doesn't have a time limit, it does affect the hard mode because of the time limit.

So there is literally nothing we can do.  If its too laggy to output the required dps we absolutely can not kill the mob targeted towards our guild, the only option we'd have is to continually kill easy if its up and the server is laggy, denying him just because we can.

That is how you think it should be?

[Orienne]

Xill wrote:

Orienne wrote:

That is the issue people are bringing up, the fact that the easy mode is a completely different fight than the hard mode, and 1 should not affect the other. The best route they could go with this model of contested would be to spawn the easy mode, and when that is killed the hard mode spawns and stays up for all to try until the 3 day window is up, and then the easy mode will spawn again starting all over. This way the guilds who want to try the hard mode, and the guilds who still can use the easy mode gear are both happy. Having 1 mob die and affect a completely different mobs spawn cycle was never a good idea.

Except that in that instance... the guild after hard mode would simply kill the easy mode, sell the loot to the other guild waiting to get a turn at easy mode, then pull hard mode. Otherwise would they stand around and wait for a guild to come kill easy mode if they wanted hard or wait for them to actually get it down? No.

So either way 1 guild does not get what they want unless both/either guild in the situation is being extra nice. And if they are... then it wouldnt matter because you can work it out with the other guild that is interested to trade mobs. One time its up, guild A kills easy, next time guild B gets to try hard and potentially kill it.

But if they are trying to be jerks... well the "scrub" guild has just as much opportunity to block the hardcore guild. And that seems to be the issue.

And I like the way Atan put it. Its a contested SPAWN. Not a contested MOB. Better that way imho...

There is this misconception that all "end game raiders" are elitist jerks, and this is simply not the case. Are there some who are? Most definately. Just because there are some doesn't mean that we all are. Your post here illustrates your view on all end game raiders and it's sad to see. I can tell you that while it "may" be true that some would do what you think, not all would. I know I could care less about the easy mode mob, and the only reason I would ever have my guild pull it would be if it were up and we wanted to try the hard mode.

I also want to point out that not all guilds raid at the same time. I'm not sure how your server is Xill but I play on Najena and we have guilds on 4 separate time zones who are more than capable of killing these easy mode contested. I believe that my guild is the only one on server who when these mobs are up have another guild even show up, the other time zone raids have a monopoly on it. With the encounters being changed to allow hard mode to spawn when easy is killed, there is a great chance that ALL of the guilds on my server will have a chance to pull the mob. This has always been one of the points of contention with the casual players who never even showed up to contested, yet were vocal about being locked out of the fun. This change would actually open up these encounters to more guilds and players which seems to be what SOE is wanting to happen. Isn't this what the majority of the players would prefer as well, rather than the easy mode dieing and then NOBODY gets the chance to experience the hard mode?

Really I just don't understand the thoughts behind some who are posting here thinking it's acceptable to block other guilds out of experiencing the game to its fullest, and also to some who think 2 separate encounters should be tied in to the same spawn cycle. Could you imagine the backlash if, for instance, all instanced content were contested zones and then there were 1 or 2 guilds on each server completely locking everything down? That is basically what is being stated by some is acceptable, as you have to get there first or risk losing out.

So in closing, these so called "contested" need to either be removed from the game, or they seriously need to be separated into 2 separate encounters or else leave the hard mode up when the easy is killed until the easy is set to spawn again in about 3 days time. I don't understand why it was stated in this thread weeks ago that the devs love the idea, yet we still have not seen any change to the way these encounters work. The change would honestly give a ton more exposure of these contested mobs to a great percentage of the games population which is a winning formula across the board.

[Hecula]

Here's what the bottom line is, plain and simple:

The hard modes - particularly hard mode Ox - are difficult to kill with zone lag.

The resident server uberguilds have to wait until off-peak hours to pull hard mode - because the lag monster is too difficult to deal with.

This means that the server "scrub" guilds may just potentially get a chance to form up and pull an easy mode encounter while the uberguild is sitting there waiting for the server lag to open up a kill window.

The uberguilds are all on here fighting hard to get it changed because they don't want those scrub guilds to have any chance at potentially taking a spawn away. They want to be able to kill the easy mode version within a couple minutes of it spawning with 2 groups, block those scrub guilds then take their sweet time with HM up until server conditions make things optimal for their kill.

This is the bottom line. Any other arguments about style of the encounter, what's fair or not or whatever are just attempts to obscure the above so it looks like there is some benevolent reason or something as to why all the uberguilds want it this way.

If the changes are made to allow the easy mode to be killed and the hard mode to stay up, it will go back to being locked down by one guild again. The uberguilds will just plow down easy mode in minutes to block the scrub guilds, because they can without any repercussions, then have all week to take pulls at hard mode whenever they want.

[Notsovilepriest]

Hecula wrote:

Here's what the bottom line is, plain and simple:

The hard modes - particularly hard mode Ox - are difficult to kill with zone lag.

The resident server uberguilds have to wait until off-peak hours to pull hard mode - because the lag monster is too difficult to deal with.

This means that the server "scrub" guilds may just potentially get a chance to form up and pull an easy mode encounter while the uberguild is sitting there waiting for the server lag to open up a kill window.

The uberguilds are all on here fighting hard to get it changed because they don't want those scrub guilds to have any chance at potentially taking a spawn away. They want to be able to kill the easy mode version within a couple minutes of it spawning with 2 groups, block those scrub guilds then take their sweet time with HM up until server conditions make things optimal for their kill.

This is the bottom line. Any other arguments about style of the encounter, what's fair or not or whatever are just attempts to obscure the above so it looks like there is some benevolent reason or something as to why all the uberguilds want it this way.

If the changes are made to allow the easy mode to be killed and the hard mode to stay up, it will go back to being locked down by one guild again. The uberguilds will just plow down easy mode in minutes to block the scrub guilds, because they can without any repercussions, then have all week to take pulls at hard mode whenever they want.

"Uber Guilds" will be far less likely to kill easymode version TBH. If they were at all concerned with it, they would be dying anytime it popped within mintutes of it popping, if hard mode were killable by them or not, because they want to stop others from it, but lag is normally too bad for hard mode anyways. If the change goes in, "Scrub guild" will get to kill the little cute fluffy mode and get their loot, and then "uber guild" won't need to kill the easy mode either and everyone should be happy. No top end guild wants anything for any reason off easy Ox especially, thus they won't waste their raid time, kind of like they won't waste it in the Icy Keep Raid zone now.

[Hamervelder]

Gaige wrote:

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Oh, I get it, Gaige.  I understand the lag issue completely.  Guilds come in and kill Ox when there's little server lag, so you can't kill him later when it's not primetime.  As Atan said though, it's a contested spawn.  If you want it bad enough, then you'll find a way to get it done.

Listen, my guild would have no problem two grouping easy Ox within 5 mins of spawn every spawn locking it down on Unrest forever.  

"Wanting it bad enough" - doesn't mean the servers are performing well enough to sustain 400k+ raid dps for the almost 4 mins that it requires to kill HM Ox.

So while the lag doesn't ever matter on easy mode because it doesn't have a time limit, it does affect the hard mode because of the time limit.

So there is literally nothing we can do.  If its too laggy to output the required dps we absolutely can not kill the mob targeted towards our guild, the only option we'd have is to continually kill easy if its up and the server is laggy, denying him just because we can.

That is how you think it should be?

How do I think it should be?  I think SOE should fix the performance issues.  Server lag shouldn't be a major factor in whether an encounter succeeds or fails.  In the least, I think that contested mobs should be moved to instances that work something like Lord Ree's room in Wailing Caves; When the door is open, a raid can go in, and then the door locks behind them.  If they fail, they get zoned out, and within x minutes, the door opens again.  That wouldn't completely alleviate the problem, but it would be better than having contested mobs in open zone.  In this case, the zone entrance itself would be contested.

What I disagree with, is the argument of some of the 'raiders' in this thread, who want to do away with the easy mode encounter.  Whether or not people kill the easy mode encounter has NO effect on your guild's ability to kill Ox on hard mode, if server lag is that big of an issue.  None.  The argument to remove the easy encounter so that 'hard core' guilds can get a shot at killing the hard mode encounter is, frankly, selfish and ridiculous.

[Korrupt]

Nobody is asking to get rid of the easymode encounter, they are asking for the hard mode to not be despawned from someone killing the easymode. It's basically as if a "scrub" guild really wants easymode ox, but some guy comes and 1 shots a solo mob and prevents it from spawning. Same scenario, killing a weak mob should never prevent the real mob from spawning.

I like the idea of hardmode staying up after easymode dies. The only other decent option would be a placeholder system where sometimes easymode pops and sometimes hardmode.

[Hecula]

Notsovilepriest@Nagafen wrote:

"Uber Guilds" will be far less likely to kill easymode version TBH. If they were at all concerned with it, they would be dying anytime it popped within mintutes of it popping, if hard mode were killable by them or not, because they want to stop others from it, but lag is normally too bad for hard mode anyways.

Nope, I call BS. The ONLY REASON easy mode doesn't currently die immediately is because the uberguilds are waiting for a better server environment to pull hard mode. That's the ONLY REASON. Otherwise you're telling me that all those uberguilds will pass up an easy 2-groupable encounter that has loot that they can still likely sell for a few hundred plat or at the very least get an easy chance at a couple manas. And they get to easily block all those scrub guilds as an extra bonus.

For what reason would they pass this up again? Benevolence? Because they just don't care? Hahaha! No really, that was funny.

Sorry, what you're suggesting goes against the entire history of EQ and any MMO with contested for that matter.

[Tehom]

For the same reason that most won't be clearing Icy Keep? There's plenty of content right now once Underfoot Depths comes back in. You're suggesting they'll be spending time on something that's basically a waste of time rather than things which are worthwhile. And even suggesting they'd call list for something that's alt-loot.

I really think that won't be commonplace.

[Orienne]

Hecula, please explain what an "uber guild" killing the easy mode Ox accomplishes. The loot is terrible and can be bought for marks in Paineel, so why would any guild who does not need the upgrades kill it? Please get past the "hard core guilds hate all casual and always will go out of there way to screw them over" mantra, because honestly you are simply wrong on that. Also I have yet to see anyone saying that the easy mode should be taken out of the game, all that is being argued is that it should NOT affect another mob.

[Gaige]

Hecula wrote:

They want to be able to kill the easy mode version within a couple minutes of it spawning with 2 groups, block those scrub guilds then take their sweet time with HM up until server conditions make things optimal for their kill.

I have no desire to kill either easymode Ox or Klaak and my guild has been leaving both up since about a month after SF launch when we didn't need any of the loot anymore and wanted to start trying the hardmode encounters.

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

What I disagree with, is the argument of some of the 'raiders' in this thread, who want to do away with the easy mode encounter.  Whether or not people kill the easy mode encounter has NO effect on your guild's ability to kill Ox on hard mode, if server lag is that big of an issue.  None.  The argument to remove the easy encounter so that 'hard core' guilds can get a shot at killing the hard mode encounter is, frankly, selfish and ridiculous.

Did you even read this thread?  NO ONE SAID THAT.  All we want is for when the easymode Ox dies to whatever raid kills it, the hardmode encounter spawns and stays up until it dies or the easymode mob would've spawned again.

Nothing in this thread talks about doing away with the easymode encounter, learn to read?

Hecula wrote:

Nope, I call BS. The ONLY REASON easy mode doesn't currently die immediately is because the uberguilds are waiting for a better server environment to pull hard mode. That's the ONLY REASON. Otherwise you're telling me that all those uberguilds will pass up an easy 2-groupable encounter that has loot that they can still likely sell for a few hundred plat or at the very least get an easy chance at a couple manas. And they get to easily block all those scrub guilds as an extra bonus.

For what reason would they pass this up again? Benevolence? Because they just don't care? Hahaha! No really, that was funny.

Sorry, what you're suggesting goes against the entire history of EQ and any MMO with contested for that matter.

Yes, we'll pass it up, just like we passed up the Dominus mobs and just like we're never doing Icy Keep again after we got our server first for the dragon.

Easymode Ox drops legs that you can BUY off a MERCHANT.  Why would anyone waste their time channel selling loot you can already easily buy yourself?  We wouldn't.

Killing a mob just so others can't only happens when that mob drops loot you don't want others to have.  That isn't true in the case of easymode Ox, so there is no reason guilds would be farming him just because they can.

Same with Klaak.

[SageGaspar]

Hecula wrote:

Nope, I call BS. The ONLY REASON easy mode doesn't currently die immediately is because the uberguilds are waiting for a better server environment to pull hard mode. That's the ONLY REASON. Otherwise you're telling me that all those uberguilds will pass up an easy 2-groupable encounter that has loot that they can still likely sell for a few hundred plat or at the very least get an easy chance at a couple manas. And they get to easily block all those scrub guilds as an extra bonus.

For what reason would they pass this up again? Benevolence? Because they just don't care? Hahaha! No really, that was funny.

Sorry, what you're suggesting goes against the entire history of EQ and any MMO with contested for that matter.

The loot off easy ox is duplicated off mobs that friends and family guilds were rolling the first week of the expansion and we've pretty much run out of seventh tier alts to give them to. There's honestly not even anything to use money on atm. I seriously doubt any hardcore raiders are going to go after easymode ox unless they happen to be rolling through when it's up.

As for the broader contested issue? Screw contested aimed at hardcore raiders. It's for a different game in a different time. They've never balanced the challenge v reward right. Lag has been the #1 source of difficulty they've provided for years, aside from getting bored people to sit on spawns. Just seriously kill off the hardcore contested raid mobs, banish them from your minds, focus on making challenging instances with awesome itemization. It's not worth the time spent half-assing a solution that will make no one happy.

[Hecula]

I already gave them, but the reasons these will be dropped by the resident uberguilds are (in no partucular order):

1. Money/Manas

2. They're easy and can be taken down with much less than a full raid

3. ****blocking scrub guilds - always a fun pastime.

Your guild may leave them up Gaige but you will be the exception, not the rule. A lot of guilds don't want "scrub" guilds killing the same encounters. They don't want those names on a list right next to theirs. Their e-peens can't handle the idea that another guild killed a current-tier contested. It makes them all flaccid and small.

Of course it will all be reasoned away to, "well, we needed to kill easy mode to spawn hard mode (oh shucks, sorry scrub guilds, it's not our fault - it was designed this way - better luck next time .sadface)" when the time comes.

There have already been a ton of encounters that are or were affected by lag and have time or DPS limits - Gynok, Umzok, Gozak, Munzok etc etc. Only reason for the hard core push to have these changed is that you are forced to contest with scrub guilds and lag at the same time. But that's why they're called contested (and you can drop the whole different encounter BS because they're very similar - just hardmode has more stuff to deal with).

[Tehom]

You might have a point if guilds were sitting around with nothing to do. That simply won't be the case - there's more than enough content to keep everyone occupied, or will be once Underfoot Depths and Icy keep are fixed. Going after things like Oxdaxius would have to be done instead of something else that's more meaningful, so it simply won't happen with anything like the regularity you think.

[Korrupt]

Hecula wrote:

I already gave them, but the reasons these will be dropped by the resident uberguilds are (in no partucular order):

1. Money/Manas

2. They're easy and can be taken down with much less than a full raid

3. ****blocking scrub guilds - always a fun pastime.

Your guild may leave them up Gaige but you will be the exception, not the rule. A lot of guilds don't want "scrub" guilds killing the same encounters. They don't want those names on a list right next to theirs. Their e-peens can't handle the idea that another guild killed a current-tier contested. It makes them all flaccid and small.

Of course it will all be reasoned away to, "well, we needed to kill easy mode to spawn hard mode (oh shucks, sorry scrub guilds, it's not our fault - it was designed this way - better luck next time .sadface)" when the time comes.

There have already been a ton of encounters that are affected by lag and have time limits - Gynok, Gozak, Munzok etc etc. Only reason for the hard core push to have these changed is that you are forced to contest with scrub guilds and lag at the same time. But that's why they're called contested (and you can drop the whole different encounter BS because they're very similar - just hardmode has more stuff to deal with).

  No uberguild is going to go out of their way to block a lesser guild from the easymode encounters for the same reason they didn't bother with the domini, they aren't considered progression at all so theres nothing to block. If the easymode is up when the better guild gets there to pull hardmode yes they will kill it rather than wait around for a scrub guild to come kill it, it's the only way to get to the hardmode.

Money and manas are both a moot point as you wont make enough plat off that gear to make it worth your time due to being able to buy the loot off a merchant and "uberguilds" are swimming in manas already.

Just because something is easy to kill doesnt mean guilds will waste their time doing it. Obviously these mobs are a cakewalk now, so how many servers have this mob currently locked down by the resident uberguild? They could lock it down in a heartbeat if they wanted yet on most servers that isn't happening, so your theory is being dismantled everyday by top guilds currently ignoring easymode.

Again a fair comparison is if the scrub guild forms to kill easymode ox but poof he despawns because some dude just came and soloed a mob that despawns him. It's 2 different encounters that share a spawn and being able to tank and spank a [Removed for Content] mob to effectively eliminate the difficult version is ridiculous.

[Orienne]

Hecula wrote:

I already gave them, but the reasons these will be dropped by the resident uberguilds are (in no partucular order):

1. Money/Manas

2. They're easy and can be taken down with much less than a full raid

3. ****blocking scrub guilds - always a fun pastime.

Your guild may leave them up Gaige but you will be the exception, not the rule. A lot of guilds don't want "scrub" guilds killing the same encounters. They don't want those names on a list right next to theirs. Their e-peens can't handle the idea that another guild killed a current-tier contested. It makes them all flaccid and small.

Of course it will all be reasoned away to, "well, we needed to kill easy mode to spawn hard mode (oh shucks, sorry scrub guilds, it's not our fault - it was designed this way - better luck next time .sadface)" when the time comes.

There have already been a ton of encounters that are affected by lag and have time limits - Gynok, Gozak, Munzok etc etc. Only reason for the hard core push to have these changed is that you are forced to contest with scrub guilds and lag at the same time. But that's why they're called contested (and you can drop the whole different encounter BS because they're very similar - just hardmode has more stuff to deal with).

1) For the nth time, nobody can even sell these items as you can purchase them off the shard merchant and they aren't very good. As far as manas go, I don't see anyone killing them just for manas.

2) Sure they're easy, but so is everything else this expansion minus a few hard mode mobs. That doesn't mean hc guilds are going to drop what they are doing and go kill something for 0 chance at an upgrade.

3) Your posts make it seem as though you've been harrassed or made fun of in the past by guilds better than the one you have been in. I'm sorry if that's the case, but I don't really know any guilds who play to block "scrub" guilds on anything.

I can say that Gaiges guild is not the exception to leaving up easy ox, I don't know of any hc guild who goes out of their way to kill it other than perhaps NPU. The only reason I say NPU also is because not a single other guild on their server has managed to kill the easy version, so they have to be camping it and killing right away because let's face it, the easy mode is easy enough for the most casual of casual guilds to kill. As to whether they talk down to "scrub" guilds on their server I don't know nor do I care, however I don't know a single other server who has a guild intentionally locking these easy mobs down simply because they are not worth it. I maintain my servers progression list and we have 4 guilds who have killed the easy mode ox. If this mob were changed so that you kill easy mode, it spawns hard mode, there would be 0 reason for any guild after the hard mode to kill the easy mode. The only time that would happen would be if there were nobody else around and they wanted to work on hard mode, which you get from killing easy mode. I know for a fact I'd stand off to the side and let another guild kill easy mode if it was guaranteed hard mode would pop and stay up when it's dead, and if the other guild managed to kill the hard mode then grats to them.

Basically you are wrong on all of your assumptions, and it's sad that you are so bitter towards guilds simply for being good at playing this game. Let me take this time to apologize to you on behalf of all the bad things that were done to you in years past in this game.

[Hamervelder]

Gaige wrote:

Illiam@Antonia Bayle wrote:

What I disagree with, is the argument of some of the 'raiders' in this thread, who want to do away with the easy mode encounter.  Whether or not people kill the easy mode encounter has NO effect on your guild's ability to kill Ox on hard mode, if server lag is that big of an issue.  None.  The argument to remove the easy encounter so that 'hard core' guilds can get a shot at killing the hard mode encounter is, frankly, selfish and ridiculous.

Did you even read this thread?  NO ONE SAID THAT.  All we want is for when the easymode Ox dies to whatever raid kills it, the hardmode encounter spawns and stays up until it dies or the easymode mob would've spawned again.

Nothing in this thread talks about doing away with the easymode encounter, learn to read?

I did, and they did.  Would you like me to find it for you?  Go back and read the first four posts in this thread.  EVERY ONE OF THEM laments how the easy mode gets killed, and then people can't kill the hard mode.  Grow up, and quit being a jerk.