Dead means Dead

[BMonkeeus]

Andok wrote:

A perma-death server is way too care bear!  The death penalty for real hardcore players is having SoE thugs show up at your house,  break down your door, smash your computer, and cut up your credit card when your character dies.  Afterward, they raid your refrigerator and watch pay-per-view movies on your dime!

[rollando]

 It could be fun on a short duration special server : the higher you get on that server, the better title you get for the permanent toon you want : from "the beginner" if you manage to get to level 10 to "the survivor" if you hit 90. 

[Zhern]

Inquisitor PvE, Mystic PvP.

I would roam around rezzing people for 5 plat, JK . It would be fun to try a permadeath PVE server. I wouldn't play a PVP permadeath server. I can only think about the sadistic scout that would wait while I was fighting a mob then come behind me.

[Keikoku]

The only issue with this is raids.  You can successfully manage to do instances and such without dying, but it'd take a long time to get the gear to have survivability on raids.

[SirDinadan]

Ok, I'm in.  Arasai Inquisitor on Kithicor named Deathless.  Not showing up in eq2players just yet, but currently at level 16, with two close calls so far involving werewolves and a named wisp that stuns.

I went with Inquisitor for the plate, melee ability, reactive heals, and some aggro avoidance.. and Arasai for Wind Walk, Glide, and Featherfall.  It would be just like me to survive everything except for a misjudged jump off a ledge.

Grouping is an issue, even in overland zones for questing.  They didn't ask for a requirement that no one ever die, and I don't want to lose my progress when Leeroy goes charging in. 

I am levelling him as a Sage at the equivalent level, as he will not be twinked at all.. using only what he finds, makes, or buys with earned coin on the broker.

An interesting change of pace.

[g4nd4lf]

Perma death with losing months or years of playtime is not an option imho.

Instead of strong death penalties it would be much greater to reward players for staying alive a certain amount of time.

What about raising XP/AA gain, income from quests, zones, raids depending on the playtime the character didn't die within the game world/zones.

Instead of only rewarding with achievement points or titles make it desirable to survive as long as possible. Give out an instant master research or free respecs or just a nice looking weapon/armor that shows you managed to stay alive a long time while leveling your character.

With some additionial rules applied to (e.g. no chronomagic, no mentoring allowed) this could be a real nice challenge and competition within the game and really worth going for it.

[Odys]

Arg, i maintain that the idea is a non sense most classes can make it to 90 with zero death, if i had time i would prove it leveling a warden to 90 with 0 death. As i wrote i died solo from tow mobs (75,85) and on top of that i died from falls (barren sky, odus).

At some point my mystic was level 70+  with 2 deaths both from falling.

The problem comes from grouping / rading,  on a permadeath server nobody would ever group.

[wajamacallit]

My SK is now 15 and still progressing through the starter quests with 16AA's and slider at 100%.   It certainly is a different  way of playing,  I was pretty blaise about dieing before even using it as a means of transport some times.   Now I a ultra cautious, I was nearly dead once to a trapped chest other and another as I was attacked whilst looking at my map with the sound down.

I have been thinking about some rules I will apply.  

I will accept a rez if provided.   However if the mob is intelligent ie, realises the value of my equipment will consider all this looted and destroy what ever I am carring only.   If not then I shall retain everything.   So for example killed by an Orc it all goes by a gazelle it stays.

Group or not to group, for the moment no but rules will need to be put inplace for this.

[JackBurtonBTLC]

The idea of your dead, game over, roll again, doesn't appeal to me at all..

However..with that said, I do like the idea of a MMO Game work that has more risk and danger. Running through a full camp of even con mobs SHOULD be a fatal mistake, not something that you get away with.

I also like the idea of the world having dangerous boss mobs that are in some areas that patrol.

Anyway my two cents

[Sorann]

wajamacallit wrote:

If you were to play a toon, which when it died was deleted along with all its worldly goods, what class / race would you select?

worst idea, ever! I would hate to die and not revive, that's just... stupid.

[NightGod473]

JackBurtonBTLC wrote:

The idea of your dead, game over, roll again, doesn't appeal to me at all..

However..with that said, I do like the idea of a MMO Game work that has more risk and danger. Running through a full camp of even con mobs SHOULD be a fatal mistake, not something that you get away with.

I also like the idea of the world having dangerous boss mobs that are in some areas that patrol.

Anyway my two cents

The game your wanting is called Everquest, without the number 2 after it...

[SirDinadan]

Sorann wrote:

worst idea, ever! I would hate to die and not revive, that's just... stupid.

Well, I can agree that SOE should never implement an enforced server rule for permadeath.  So much of the game would be off-limits.  But as a player who has levelled more alts than I care to remember, including many for other people, this new view of the game has been refreshing. 

Other than my main, which is a special case, my characters have generally been a collection of arts and spells to be clicked, slightly different than the others, but only in flavor.  To now be playing a character where every encounter holds hostage all the work I have done has made me analyze and plan for even the most simple of tasks. 

I approach an enemy with the same view that I once did back when I was levelling for the very first time, unsure of how I matched up against the heroics and the yellows and the one-ups.  And when outmatched, I run.  I just about never do that with other characters, with them I stay and hope for the best. 

Because the first time I see the 'Revive' button.. this character, its adventure and tradeskill levels, and all my work will be gone.

I have found it very personally involving.

[Kami-Master]

On Topic: Currently I am an Inquisitor, though having rolled a Warden alt.... would probably choose a Warden, they appear to have better type/amount of heals...

Off Topic:  Try checking out 'Mortal Online' - while not perma-death.... its FFA PvP, with 100% item loot of your carcass.... which means when you die... you revive nude and broke like a level 1 toon

[SirDinadan]

Kami-Master wrote:

On Topic: Currently I am an Inquisitor, though having rolled a Warden alt.... would probably choose a Warden, they appear to have better type/amount of heals...

The Inq reactives are nice because they aren't wasted if you're at 100%.  Although I don't have two to compare directly to get actual numbers, the plate vs. leather mitigation has to be important, also.

[Brook]

If I am not mistaken I believe that wearing leather gives a higher avoidance that plate wearers get. The heals on a Warden cast a lot faster than a reactive as well, the damage potential of both is about the same depending on what kind of fight it is.

[Lortet]

Refreshing to see alternate styles in discussion - but while I played an MMO with on a "Hardcore" rule set (perma death) I think all it needs is some better death penalties - I retain a "fear" of my characters dying - doesn't mean I don't take on yellow con ^^^'s solo with my SK and a few of my melee healers, it's just that I plan it all out - eliminate wandering adds and no kamikaze runs into an unscouted room because death is meaningless.

As to the healers and who seems to get on best - so far my Inquis seems to go best (one fury, melee inquis, mystic and warden)  - being uninteruptible sure helps, as does the armour. 

Perma death can result from some uncontrollable causes, and no-one wants to lose a character to a lag monster or a spilt cup of coffee. As also mentioned above - you can't control the actions of your group - my last death - me "don't go over there, there are epics" - tank - "I can't see any" - charge! 

[Odys]

I played an inqui till around 26 with locked xp (conversion was not yet available) and he was certainly very strong, but evac is a strong safety belt, morover on a tense fight you need to heal and do damage and the high channeling of the warden + quickness of the heals is a strong asset.

Warden also get a root and an AOE root, this root last for around 1 minute, no other priest but furies  can root.

Warden get nature walk, which mean that you can more or less ignore whatever is not ^^^ and run thorugh as long as you know where you are going.

I soloed the red drake without leaving the green/yellow, for sure SK probably do him afk in auto-attack but it's probably impossible for a scout to kill him (in legendary gear), the dude has 475 000 hp.

However i for sure agree than an inqui or a mystic can make it to 90 with no death if they play solo. But they will have to be more carefull, i remember a couple of time were my mystic got ganged&rooted and died, my warden would had escaped (rooting, running away or evacing).

solve

Back on the topic :

Some fun penalty would be 1-2 level loss if you die from solo content. it could be zone related since the only zone with a clear heroic subzone is kunzard (city of myst).

I don't see how you can make it work in groups, anyone in a group getting in trouble will run for his life, reactive healers will refuse any pro-active healing, healers would gate on a bad pull.

Last the LD issue would need to be adressed.

[SirDinadan]

I suppose if you wanted to up the ante even further, a high tinkering level will give any class access to a 99% feign death, and evac.

Would definitely want to avoid the Exothermic stones, though.

[LivelyHound]

standupwookie wrote:

Everytime someone posts something like this I respons the same way. 

People who want a system like this do not want it for themselves, they want it for others.  Item loot for PVP, perma death, it's all the same thing.

All you have to do is delete your character when you die....but we all know that is not going to happen.

Except it does happen, there are players who play on this kind of ruleset, not twinking earn it all yourself, delete if you die. I should know, along with others, as I've personally deleted 6 premadeath toons now I'm currently at lvl 21 on my new 7th permadeath toon. My highest so far is a miserly lvl 37 gah... died a stupid death there too...

And to those saying 90 is easy... have you tried? As far as I know there is no lvl 90 toon that has no deaths. That would imply that its not as easy as you think, why becuase you get overconfident, sloppy , pull something of the charts and die, run off a cliff oops dead, tab target a red gaurd etc... It's a different palystyle and it takes time to avoid all the errors, after that it take time and effort and experience and then its a case of hitting 90 with as many high achievements as you can... such as orange /red quest completion count etc.

Its a fun style to play for a change for one toon outta 7.

[wajamacallit]

It is with great regret that I must announce the death of the SK.   Got to level 15 with 19AA's before pulling getting a little cocky and pulling a red mob.

Going to start a Pally with the same ruleset.

One of the great strengths of these MMO's is the framework they provide does allow for a variety of personal rules sets, twinking, permadeath and no none quest killing etc.  Whilst I agree the permadeath rules would not work on a server, I would hope Sony consider the possibility of allowing players to optionally select  the penalties of death on a toon basis from a variety of options.  At present since its not possible to delevel the only options for higher penalty is to stip or delete the toon.

[Britefire]

What about a much bigger exp debt, armor debt that can't be fixed (like 2 % along with regular 10% fixable armor debt) and a loss of status?

Just aa thought for a death penalty.

[Sorann]

ok.. to tell you the truth... this is a stupid idea because I don't want to die and have to start all over again.  How could anybody like that?  It makes the game meaningless.  You play, you die, you start all over, and you may not even be able to finish the game, not to mention that everybody will be too scared to raid, or do anything.  I would also be in the group with people who would be scared to do a raid or fight a mob, as this is the worst idea ever.  If you want a death system that is hardcore, then add the system of losing your items if you die, with the exception of stuff stored in a bank and such.  Seriously people, I know i've said this alot, but this is the worst idea ever, because for one, not everybody would want to play if this happened, and then the game would lose alot of its players.  Come on people, use your brain.

EDIT: Oh, and please note that if Sony implements this, you'll be crying because you keep dying.

[Kassanthala]

b wrote:

The game your wanting is called Everquest, without the number 2 after it...

^^^^ This. In a nutshell.

I see a lot of posts saying that if death were more permanent then no one would ever play or group or raid. This is simply not true. When EQ came out, death could be permanent. You could potentially lose your entire character and everything on it. If you didn't get a rez you came back in the nearest city (which could be several zones away) completely naked (no items, armour, gear, anything) and you had to get to your body within a certain amount of time. If you didn't then it would decay and rot and disappear. 

Imagine if your whole group wipes deep down in a dungeon. Including the healer who can rez. You would all have to get down there with no weapons or gear. Sometimes that could be nearly impossible. And yet people constantly grouped and raided in all the most difficult places in the game. People would stay up all night or miss work to get their corpses because if they didn't they could lose their high level character and EVERYTHING they spent a year or more working on. 

Not the most ideal mechanic, but A) yes, people accepted it and grouped and raided just as much as they do today and B) people didn't leave the game because of it. This was just how things were. 

Oh yes AND you lost experience also. In fact you could actually delevel. 

[Damanta]

I remember raid wipes, you would send in the bards, rogues and monks to bring back the bodies after everyone /consent 'ed to let them be drug back. Sort of funny to watch a trail of bodies being jerked along past you by invisible people or monks that would constantly fall down playing dead to loose agro, jump right back up drag and drop, rinse repeat. Although necro's being able to summon a corpse helped, but again you needed a necro and the spell component to cast it. And even with all this, there was grouping and raids galore.

[Pacus]

All true except when you died and didn't receive a rez before you revived, you respawned naked in your home city.  You would then go to the bank and get out your alternate set of gear to make the journey back to your corpse.

And also right, or course, is the fact that people still attempted hard zones and raids, etc. and still do (EQ is still going strong last I heard). 

I left EQ mainly because my wife did, NOT because I was tired of dieing and corpes runs.  I would go back every now and then just for fun, but the time interval became greater and greater in between when I would revisit, to the point where I would have to try hard to remember just how to open a door...heh.  Anyway, when they raised the price of the station account (or whatever it was called) I went back to the regular account and it's been just EQ2 ever since.  But Dieing had NOTHING to do with me quitting EQ.

It did add a level of excitement. 

(can't believe this thread is still alive)

[wajamacallit]

Sorann@Antonia Bayle wrote:

ok.. to tell you the truth... this is a stupid idea because I don't want to die and have to start all over again.  How could anybody like that?  It makes the game meaningless.  You play, you die, you start all over, and you may not even be able to finish the game, not to mention that everybody will be too scared to raid, or do anything.  I would also be in the group with people who would be scared to do a raid or fight a mob, as this is the worst idea ever.  If you want a death system that is hardcore, then add the system of losing your items if you die, with the exception of stuff stored in a bank and such.  Seriously people, I know i've said this alot, but this is the worst idea ever, because for one, not everybody would want to play if this happened, and then the game would lose alot of its players.  Come on people, use your brain.

EDIT: Oh, and please note that if Sony implements this, you'll be crying because you keep dying.

 No post that I have read has suggested this as a manadatory rule set.  There have been suggestions for a dedicated server, if you don't like the rules don't play that option, just like PvP.  I started this as I had come to realise that death in this game is meaningless, a few GP to repair and thats the only real penalty.   Take the dissappointment you feel when your toon dies for the first time and then magnify as you realise its your only death.   My SK died after 8 hrs, thats all I lost but it was the most interesting time I have had in game for a while.  

[Cynith]

wajamacallit wrote:

It is with great regret that I must announce the death of the SK.   Got to level 15 with 19AA's before pulling getting a little cocky and pulling a red mob.

Going to start a Pally with the same ruleset. 

15? Oh no!! **mourns the loss**

Actually - this thread has made me want to try this again It's been awhile since I started a new alt!

Good luck on the Pally!

[juggalo0385]

Andok wrote:

A perma-death server is way too care bear!  The death penalty for real hardcore players is having SoE thugs show up at your house,  break down your door, smash your computer, and cut up your credit card when your character dies.  Afterward, they raid your refrigerator and watch pay-per-view movies on your dime!

 

 

[juggalo0385]

Andok wrote:

A perma-death server is way too care bear!  The death penalty for real hardcore players is having SoE thugs show up at your house,  break down your door, smash your computer, and cut up your credit card when your character dies.  Afterward, they raid your refrigerator and watch pay-per-view movies on your dime!

 LOL kinda reminds me of an internet vid where a guy downloaded music illegaly and German SS zombies showed up at his house

[Qojan]

Peralin@Antonia Bayle wrote:

A different game.

I agree, sounds to much like that real life thing people tell me about