Sentinels Fate Raid Cloth - WTB Pet Focuses ... and other Cloth Gripes

[Xalmat]

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

You are missing the point. There is no reason to change it. If your raid force cannot come up with reasonable loot rules then find a guild that works well together. There does not need to be changes to the items because the players themselves should be able to work it out.

Any raid/guild leader who would let a Sorcerer loot Penda's guardian-caller Necklace over a summoner is not fit to lead.

You realize you just described about 90% of all raid guilds right? Top end or otherwise.

This is a widespread problem.

[Jesdyr]

I stand by my statement

[Talazar]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote:

So basically your complaining because the summoner in your guild took an item over you last expansion because any mage could use it and it was good for every mage and he still took it? Your fault.

the thread is about armor, and how its not right for the t1 gear to have no pet effects/ or bad ones vs the other mages having exactly what we need, its stupid how spread out items with power flux 4+ are, either they are on terrible items or off hard encounter or require 40+ marks of manaar for 1 piece that you wouldn't use over raid gear.

No no - I'm saying that if someting with summoner focus is an upgrade for me I'm bidding / have bid on it.  If it is worth more to a summoner than it is to me, they should bid more on it.  Mind, DKP focused raid guilds only - this has no place in /ran.  In that case I would probably think a bit more carefully.  DKP tends to normalize such inequities.

[Dinduit]

Sorc/Summoner knife cuts both ways guys...and it goes on over all classes, not just casters.

Summoners often bid on items obviously of more efficient use to Sorcs and therein lies the issue as well.

Personally, I choose to never bid/roll on an item that has pet focus as i do see it aimed at summoners. If there is a summoner in raid, it is of benefit to the entire raid that he be the one to utilize the benefits of the item.

The couple items i own that contain pet focus were taken because there was not a summoner present at the time.

If your leadership lacks the sack or simply doesn't care enough to regulate who may bid on an item, simply use your own heads and police yourselves. Speak up in vent: "I'm gonna pass on item X; it's definitely of better use to a summoner/sorceror/chanter". A few people doing this regularly will influence everyone and it will take on a life of its own throughout your raid. This works for all classes; tanks, scouts, heals, etc...

What helps each individual player helps the whole raid. There is nothing OP in a raid setting as far as I'm concerned as it is helping me and my fellow raiders regardless of who's topping the parses. It's a team sport.

-Din

[Xalmat]

I'm still waiting for Shoulders of the Black Death and Summoning Brace of the Wyrmkind to gain any sort of pet focus...Preferably Power Flux V on the bracer and Empowered Minion 12.6 so that I'll actually wear them over my TSO pieces.

And while we're at it:

Helmets need Power Flux VGloves need Power Flux V

Slapping Quicksilver Blood on these makes it a further downgrade from TSO set armor than it already is, because (using T1 as an example):

TSO Helmet Power Flux V - SF Helmets Quicksilver Blood VTSO Gloves Power Flux III - SF Gloves Quicksilver Blood VTSO Feet Quicksilver Blood IV - SF Feet Power Flux IVTSO Bracer Quicksilver Blood V - SF Bracer Power Flux (change from Molten Carnage as that stat is readily available)TSO Shoulders Quicksilver Blood II & Empowered Minion 12 - SF Shoulder Empowered Minion onlyLegs and Robe are fine

Unless the TSO helmet and gloves gain Power flux, the whole set is going to be a downgrade from TSO for our pet (nevermind the simultaneous downgrade for ourselves, even including red adorns). Hell I don't even want to wear my SF helmet or gloves over my TSO set because of the statistical downgrade on a piece-by-piece basis.

[acctlc]

Itemization this xpac is a travesty on so many different levels.  At this point there are just so many problems its almost past the point of hoping they can fix them all.  I can't lay blame necessarily on the item folks after having the scaling system pulled, but the fact remain (specifically regarding summoner loot) there are tons of problems.

No ability mod on the pet focused raid gear is a joke.  I can't even begin to wonder how anyone thought that was acceptable.

The "lower" tier sets in general just aren't good enough period to look at replacing TSO fabled, red slot or no.  Someone in my servers channel put it quite perfectly imho...crap painted with red paint...is still crap.

Regarding the debate about summoner pieces and non summoner pieces going to non-summoner classes, well normally I'd be right there championing the summoners on this one but I'm going to hold my tongue because at this point the summoner armor pieces are so badly designed that you bet I'm going to go bidding on the "sorcerer" set in certain slots over it.  Its sad too because whoever designed last tiers raid set did a fantastic job.  The template was there for a winning set...and they just failed at recreating it.  And don't get me started at how miffed I am that we have to replace our 4 PIECE set bonus with a breastplate from t9 to gain the same [Removed for Content] effect back.

As for the jewelry pieces, well if your other mages want to be twits and bid against you...then let the dkp decide I guess.  If another mage wants to risk a months worth of dkp on a choker with 2 pet effects..lol let them.  I can say if the pet effects pieces were made summoner only tho it would have saved a lot of trouble and bickering. But after over a year of arguing over it last xpac..I'm just going to say to hell with the whole thing.

[de lori]

Unfortunately...apart from maybe pendas neck (still alot less crit for a summoner) all the summoner gear IS actually a bigger upgrade for a sorceror.

sucks...but they get full benefit from the player stats and there are few if any pieces that offer pet effects greater than player effects.

An item with 8crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 Potency, Destructive forces 5 (5 crit bonus for pet, 5 potency for pet), and Empowered minion 5 (5 potency for pet): you might look at that and say that owns for a summoner...but....

Sorceror gets 8 crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 potency.

Summoner (with pet contributing 50%) gets 4 crit, 6.5 crit bonus, 9 potency.

Cant really blame a sorceror for bidding....and cant really blame a guild for wanting it to go where they will see the most gain either.

Thats not really the issue.....its the fact that the pet gear is a small fraction of the cloth out there....and you really are taking a hit wearing non pet gear......put the pet effects on all the cloth and sorcerors will still gain more from those items....just means we arent limited to a small selection of cloth that all the other mages see great benefit from wearing too.

either make pet effect gear summoner only, add pet effect s to all cloth......or save yourself some valuable dev time and share stats.

with the current set up...you're asking sorcerors not to bid in raid or /roll in pugs out of the goodness of their heart. On gear that is technically a bigger upgrade for them just because us summoners have no other options.

[browsy]

yea i can see where summoners are comign from, 2 out of 3 items in game having pet focus effects clearly not enough, every item needs a pet effect so every item can be "Summoner lewt" and they can qq when anyone bids them up, this is fact.

[de lori]

browsy wrote:

yea i can see where summoners are comign from, 2 out of 3 items in game having pet focus effects clearly not enough, every item needs a pet effect so every item can be "Summoner lewt" and they can qq when anyone bids them up, this is fact.

right....and if sorcerors needed.."nukedaddy VII" and "wizzybomb IV" on their gear to boost ice comet and fusion they wouldnt be saying the same thing....if every item had a pet effect how does that make any cloth summoner gear?

[Gormak]

Charayne@Kithicor wrote:

browsy wrote:

yea i can see where summoners are comign from, 2 out of 3 items in game having pet focus effects clearly not enough, every item needs a pet effect so every item can be "Summoner lewt" and they can qq when anyone bids them up, this is fact.

right....and if sorcerors needed.."nukedaddy VII" and "wizzybomb IV" on their gear to boost ice comet and fusion they wouldnt be saying the same thing....if every item had a pet effect how does that make any cloth summoner gear?

thats exactly part of the problem!

If every cloth/mage item had the pet foci added:

* No more "summoner" loot and "pure mage" loot

* Loot tables no longer clogged up with various forms of cloth (meaning all mages will get what they want sooner)

* no more pain for players justifying summoner loot and mage loot

* easier for developers - they only have 1 cloth loot type to concern them

* easier for developers to find space on boss loot tables

* net guild power will increase as the luck factor behind getting the right mage cloth drop is no longer a problem

[browsy]

w/e as a chanter i couldnt care less about pet buffs my pet is useless and dies if it gets looked at from the next zone over, if it has crit bonus reuse and potency its chanter gear and summoners can get bent or up the dkp if they want it.  QQ about not having enough summoner gear all you want, when i see a necro parsing 40k on HM fights i feel about 0 sympathy for you.  There is more then enough summoner gear in game as is.

[thog_zork]

they should simply implement shared stats and be done with it forever

[jam3]

thog_zork wrote:

they should simply implement shared stats and be done with it forever

summoners would easily be the best dps classes after sorcs and assassins then, soe doesnt want that!

[thog_zork]

you know what shared stats can easily be balanced .. like 80% shared stat is to much lets make it 60%

[hellfire]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote:

thog_zork wrote:

they should simply implement shared stats and be done with it forever

summoners would easily be the best dps classes after sorcs and assassins then, soe doesnt want that!

You do relize shared stats would nerf the summoner atm which is good for balance of gear towards charactor.

After gear is balance where it should be you can add real pet foci for bonuses.New pet  focis will be availiable for summoner spesific gear.

What should be shared:

Cast speed  

Reuse

crit

crit bonus

potency

crit mit

Resists

Toughness

Heck you can make a case of partial sharing of ability mod also.

After balance from this point you can then add your bonuses from pet gear of say  more crit bonus/cast speed/ability mod/spell DA/flurry/HP/Power....so on and so forth.

And umm we are suppose to be tier 2 dps and well wizard and assasins are tier 1 so it looks like its in line.

[Xalmat]

Aeeron@Nagafen wrote:

thog_zork wrote:

they should simply implement shared stats and be done with it forever

summoners would easily be the best dps classes after sorcs and assassins then, soe doesnt want that!

I disagree. If anything, it would be a nerf right now: The pet has more spell haste, more reuse, more potency, and more ability mod than we do right now. The only thing it doesn't have is more crit chance and crit bonus.

However I would be willing to deal with it, and I'm sure most summoners would too, if it meant going away from the nonsense that is summoner vs sorcerer itemization.

[Carthr]

I find myself bidding on summoner stuff quite a bit on my Coercer.. Not because I'm out to get all the summoner loot, but because for whatever reason, the normal "mage" stuff has casting speed, whereas the summoner stuff tends to have reuse on it..   My coercer procs up to 150%ish casting haste.. I don't need another 5%.. Although I can use the reuse, because at the current time I'm only around 75% reuse in raid(without RoA/Cap/etc).

And remember, chanters have pets too  Last time in Labs my little PE was doin around 4k..lol

[Xalmat]

Archaic Runed Shoulders of Mutation

vs

Baleful Caller's Shoulders of Mutation

The only difference between the two, besides a minor stat difference, is Baleful Caller's has a pet focus.

Why even itemize Archaic Runed in that case? >.<

[Malacha]

Charayne@Kithicor wrote:

An item with 8crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 Potency, Destructive forces 5 (5 crit bonus for pet, 5 potency for pet), and Empowered minion 5 (5 potency for pet): you might look at that and say that owns for a summoner...but....

Sorceror gets 8 crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 potency.

Summoner (with pet contributing 50%) gets 4 crit, 6.5 crit bonus, 9 potency.

This has got to be the most backasswards math I've ever seen to justify a sorc bidding on something that will be FAR more powerful on a summoner.

[Gormak]

Malachani wrote:

Charayne@Kithicor wrote:

An item with 8crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 Potency, Destructive forces 5 (5 crit bonus for pet, 5 potency for pet), and Empowered minion 5 (5 potency for pet): you might look at that and say that owns for a summoner...but....

Sorceror gets 8 crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 potency.

Summoner (with pet contributing 50%) gets 4 crit, 6.5 crit bonus, 9 potency.

This has got to be the most backasswards math I've ever seen to justify a sorc bidding on something that will be FAR more powerful on a summoner.

I have.

For no other reason than the sorcerer "wants a new item in that slot". Its an arbitrary "cloth" item that they can use, so they do.

Many many people are simply idiots when it comes to gearing their toons, (sounds harsh but its true).... They cant see that for every item with a pet focus effect there exists a "pure mage" equivalent.... They..... Just..... Dont.... Get.... It.

Just boggles the mind with some of the items i see sorcerers (and enchanters who genuinely try to be a pet class.... but thats funny as well as tragic) roll/bid for over the summoner.

[Malacha]

Gormak wrote:

Malachani wrote:

Charayne@Kithicor wrote:

An item with 8crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 Potency, Destructive forces 5 (5 crit bonus for pet, 5 potency for pet), and Empowered minion 5 (5 potency for pet): you might look at that and say that owns for a summoner...but....

Sorceror gets 8 crit, 8 crit bonus, 8 potency.

Summoner (with pet contributing 50%) gets 4 crit, 6.5 crit bonus, 9 potency.

This has got to be the most backasswards math I've ever seen to justify a sorc bidding on something that will be FAR more powerful on a summoner.

I have.

For no other reason than the sorcerer "wants a new item in that slot". Its an arbitrary "cloth" item that they can use, so they do.

Many many people are simply idiots when it comes to gearing their toons, (sounds harsh but its true).... They cant see that for every item with a pet focus effect there exists a "pure mage" equivalent.... They..... Just..... Dont.... Get.... It.

Just boggles the mind with some of the items i see sorcerers (and enchanters who genuinely try to be a pet class.... but thats funny as well as tragic) roll/bid for over the summoner.

Don't get me wrong, in some cases a pet item will be a gigantic upgrade to a sorc, and I won't begrudge them rolling/bidding on it if it truly will be a huge upgrade. But for the "logic" behind them bidding on it being some jacked up calculation that summoners only get half of the stats of an item... that's just dumb.

Thankfully, in my guild, most of the time the sorcs are kind to the summoners and let them get the really nice pet stuff first. Most of the time.... =)

[Korrupt]

The problem is pet class gear has everything the pure caster gear has plus a pet bonus, sometimes better stats on everything plus a pet bonus. If they were to put large amounts of ability mod on "sorc" gear then it might be more appealing to them and less appealing to pet classes with a lower cap. As is stands now sorces gain as much if not more by wearing pet class gear as their own designed gear. Theres no incentive for a sorc to back off pet gear and wait for their own designated set.

[Xalmat]

Korrupt@Najena wrote:

The problem is pet class gear has everything the pure caster gear has plus a pet bonus, sometimes better stats on everything plus a pet bonus. If they were to put large amounts of ability mod on "sorc" gear then it might be more appealing to them and less appealing to pet classes with a lower cap. As is stands now sorces gain as much if not more by wearing pet class gear as their own designed gear. Theres no incentive for a sorc to back off pet gear and wait for their own designated set.

I'd be fine with that, as long as it was consistent across the board.

[thog_zork]

what boogles me the most is the missing effects on jewlery

* ear (missing raid drop with "good" pet effects like powerflux just one out of hard toxxulia)

* cloak (no raid drop with pet effect )

* charms (signature quest is missing pet effect, no raid droped charm with good pet effects)

* symbol slots (secondary/ranged)

[Morghus]

Symbols, jewelry, and charms overall aside from a very, very few are all horrible from what I've seen. Also all armor aside from pants/chest tend to be only slightly better than TSO stuff, all other slots you have to give up some stats like reuse/cast speed/crit/ability mod for a small gain here and there (usually only gain resists/1 - 3 crit bonus/1 - 3 potency). There also is no red adorn for 10 crit bonus for mages that we lose from the TSO 6 set. Its also only like 5 - 20 more mit than TSO, and easy gloves have less crit mit than TSO gloves.

[Xalmat]

Still waiting for tier 1 summoner forearms and shoulders to have a pet focus...

And still wondering why you even bothered to itemize tier 3 sorcerer shoulders and not put a pet focus on them.

[Hina]

Korrupt@Najena wrote:

The problem is pet class gear has everything the pure caster gear has plus a pet bonus, sometimes better stats on everything plus a pet bonus. If they were to put large amounts of ability mod on "sorc" gear then it might be more appealing to them and less appealing to pet classes with a lower cap. As is stands now sorces gain as much if not more by wearing pet class gear as their own designed gear. Theres no incentive for a sorc to back off pet gear and wait for their own designated set.

This is the problem I see in summoners asking for MORE gear with pet effects.  As is, so many summoner pieces are already improved versions of the sorceror pieces.  Take the shoulder set for example:  The summoner shoulders have better overall stats PLUS a buff for your pet.  This seems highly imbalanced to me. 

[Xalmat]

Hina@Najena wrote:

This is the problem I see in summoners asking for MORE gear with pet effects.  As is, so many summoner pieces are already improved versions of the sorceror pieces.  Take the shoulder set for example:  The summoner shoulders have better overall stats PLUS a buff for your pet.  This seems highly imbalanced to me. 

Which again begs the question why the sorcerer shoulders drop at all.

Without the pet focus though we aren't on equal footing for gear. No pet focus = the equivalent of 4-8% potency for the Summoner as a whole.