Can we get a clear answer on multiboxing?

highlander133 · 12-17-2009, 09:31 AM

Hi,

Recently, there has been some new statements through GMs regarding multiboxing and third party software apps for EQ2. I had been under the impression that using software like ISBoxer and InnerSpace was acceptable, due to statements like these:

http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=19768

-----------------

1. Yes {Original Question - Do you allow Hardware multi-boxing?} 2. Yes {Original Question - Do you allow Software multi-boxing?} 3. If you are at your computer while the character is being played, then multi-boxing is fine. Generally speaking we will only take action against people who automate their characters to play unattended. If you are suspected of botting then the GM will typically send the character a tell to see if they are at the keyboard. {Original Question - What are your rules for distinguishing multi-boxing from botting?} 4. While performing actions with the specific intent of causing grief for other players is against the rules, mutliboxing would not have an effect on this. {Original Question - Do you have "fair play" clauses in your EULA that multi-boxers should be particularly aware of? - Fair play clauses are things like intentionally griefing other players or blocking other players from using content.}...

7. I don't believe the game has any protections like what you are describing. I am not a multiboxer myself, so there may be some problems I'm not aware of. Still, I know others who have done it without issue. Keep in mind that multi-boxing is considered 'unsupported' play so we can't provide technical support related to running multiple instances of the game. {Original Question - Do you have specific guards in place to prevent certain actions? Specifically, many games do not like to run in the background. Many programs "correct" this by locking a window into the foreground. In some cases, this "foreground only" behavior is unintentional. In other cases, this is fully intended to prevent people from playing more than one copy of the same game on one computer. In the latter instance, software boxing would be a violation of your EULA if a "lock in foreground" mechanism was used, but may well be allowed if alt-tabbing between instances to repeat key presses was used. Or neither may be allowed, meaning software multi-boxing is a violation in your game and any attempt to do so is actionable.}

----------------------

However, lately there have been messages from GMs indicating that the use of programs like ISBoxer are considered illegal:

http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=27225

Looking around those forums, you can see that other games, such as WoW, allow (or even endorse) multiboxing. But it appears as though there may be a shift in what is allowed here by SOE.

So - really, simply put as possible: Is it legal to utilize a program like InnerSpace or ISBoxer to multibox in EQ2? Not to farm, not to cheat in any way, but simply multibox. Thank you for your time.

Noaani · 12-17-2009, 09:44 AM

I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons.

4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands.

Blackadder · 12-17-2009, 12:18 PM

Watching with interest as someone who boxes with a full group and is running under the assumption that I'm compliant with the rules.

Considering the cost associated with running all 6 accounts (and the amount it's going to cost me to get the new expansion for all of them), if I'm not complaint with the rules (in a way that can't be resolved), I'd like to know before the expansion vs after.

Yimway · 12-17-2009, 12:18 PM

Noaani wrote:

I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons.
4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands.

So you can see all 4 on one 21" monitor at the same time.

feldon30 · 12-17-2009, 12:23 PM

We're talking about SOE actively going after users who use KVM and input redirection type software. It's not botting or unattended gameplay.

Yimway · 12-17-2009, 12:26 PM

highlander133 wrote:

So - really, simply put as possible: Is it legal to utilize a program like InnerSpace or ISBoxer to multibox in EQ2? Not to farm, not to cheat in any way, but simply multibox. Thank you for your time.

You wont get an answer, or atleast I don't think they'll give you an answer.

It wouldn't surprise me that ISBoxer users on pvp may end up ruining the entire thing for the rest of us.

Blackadder · 12-17-2009, 12:31 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

highlander133 wrote:
So - really, simply put as possible: Is it legal to utilize a program like InnerSpace or ISBoxer to multibox in EQ2? Not to farm, not to cheat in any way, but simply multibox. Thank you for your time.
You wont get an answer, or atleast I don't think they'll give you an answer.
It wouldn't surprise me that ISBoxer users on pvp may end up ruining the entire thing for the rest of us.

There's an argument I can understand. Although, I'm not on PvP so have no clue what the impact is. I don't harvest/craft at the moment either, so I don't think I'm ruining anyone's economy. I bought three accounts for me and my family (trying to get them addicted to something I've enjoyed off and on since beta). They weren't into it. I stumbled on to multiboxing (from these very forums, mind you), tried it out, decided I wanted to make a whole group and see the parts of the world I could never touch solo (and guilding when you're low level is a joke. Either you can't group because everyone's 80 or they mentor and you fly past stuff so quick you never get to see it).

Getting to run through Nek Castle and see the quests the way they were meant to be played and level and loot appropriately (and die a lot, because I wasn't that gifted a player solo, and now I juggle a group) was FUN.

Hope that doesn't change.

Mikkahl · 12-17-2009, 12:34 PM

The only software I use to 2-box is Stardock Multiplicity, which lets me use one keyboard and mouse for 2 computers (by dragging the mouse pointer across monitors to select the one getting input). By definition, any mouse click or keystroke only goes to the one computer that is currently selected, so no "simultaneous keystrokes to 2 computers" are possible.

For hardware, I use a Nostromo n52 (yes the original) on the left computer to make one-handed healing possible! I don't think I could manage 2-box adventuring (or 2-box crafting!) without it! I still can't imagine 4- or 6-boxing effectively. Maybe that's where simultaneous keystrokes to multiple characters becomes necessary?

Yimway · 12-17-2009, 12:39 PM

Mikkahl wrote:

Maybe that's where simultaneous keystrokes to multiple characters becomes necessary?

It makes it less stressful for sure. And there are dozens of software and hardware sollutions for accomplishing that task. There is even a multiplicity varriant that allows you to clone the mouse/kb vs just span pc's.

Previously, all indications from SoE GM staffs was these things were ok as there was no automation, you were responsible and directing each stroke yourself. There was no program creating delays, loops, macros, etc.

It certainly appears that they've changed that stance based upon the responses the OP links.

To be perfectly honest, if ISBoxer is out, I'm probably done with EQ2 as well.

I enjoy boxing for fun, and the PiP window management makes things so much easier, that if I have to go back to the old way of doing it, I'll just find a new game.

Seidhkona · 12-17-2009, 12:43 PM

If you are unsure, do a /petition and direct the question to the GM staff that way for a definative answer. YOu may or may not get one here, because posts addressed to devs are supposed to be ignored by the forum rules.

highlander133 · 12-17-2009, 12:47 PM

Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:

If you are unsure, do a /petition and direct the question to the GM staff that way for a definative answer. YOu may or may not get one here, because posts addressed to devs are supposed to be ignored by the forum rules.

That's the problem. Petitions have gotten conflicting answers.

Davngr1 · 12-17-2009, 01:00 PM

it's don't ask, don't tell and if you get reported by enough people for blocking content or being an [Removed for Content] prepare to be banned.

kevincann · 12-17-2009, 01:43 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Mikkahl wrote:
To be perfectly honest, if ISBoxer is out, I'm probably done with EQ2 as well.
I enjoy boxing for fun, and the PiP window management makes things so much easier, that if I have to go back to the old way of doing it, I'll just find a new game.

Ditto. Since the developers broke the grouping aspect of the game, by dumbing down so much of the contentto compete with the 'other game', 2 or 3 boxing has been the only way I could continue to play the game anddo old world content -- no I can't spend an hour to find a group when an hour is all i have to play durding a weekday.

If boxing becomes forbidden, I too must take my leave of the game. I imagine I'd go to 'the other game', as muchas I dislike many aspects of it.

Noaani · 12-17-2009, 02:13 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Noaani wrote:
I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons.
4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands.
So you can see all 4 on one 21" monitor at the same time.

This is not third party software affecting EQ2, its affecting windows. It doesn't actually have an effect on how you play the game, rather, it has an effect on how many monitors you need to use to do it.

Anything that makes it easier to click what you need to click, or press the button you need to press is not an issue. Anything that allows you to activate an ability on two seperate characters with one click or press, however, is getting in to a very dark grey area.

If this is what a player is doing, I would not be at all supprised to see them get banned for doing so. While its not "unattended gameplay", it is "unintended gameplay", which is in the EULA as a bannable offence (among other things, including nothing at all).

Basically, the developers have an intention with this game. Anything a player does that goes against that intention is considered against this portion of the EULA.

Casting a heal on a healer and a taunt on a tank with one button press is against that intention.

While this is a grey area, its not really that much of one. All you need to do is think whether what you are doing is what the developers intended you to do or not. Its not about what you can and can not do, its about what their intent is.

highlander133 · 12-17-2009, 02:20 PM

Noaani wrote:

This is not third party software affecting EQ2, its affecting windows. It doesn't actually have an effect on how you play the game, rather, it has an effect on how many monitors you need to use to do it.
Anything that makes it easier to click what you need to click, or press the button you need to press is not an issue. Anything that allows you to activate an ability on two seperate characters with one click or press, however, is getting in to a very dark grey area.
If this is what a player is doing, I would not be at all supprised to see them get banned for doing so. While its not "unattended gameplay", it is "unintended gameplay", which is in the EULA as a bannable offence (among other things, including nothing at all).
Basically, the developers have an intention with this game. Anything a player does that goes against that intention is considered against this portion of the EULA.
Casting a heal on a healer and a taunt on a tank with one button press is against that intention.
While this is a grey area, its not really that much of one. All you need to do is think whether what you are doing is what the developers intended you to do or not. Its not about what you can and can not do, its about what their intent is.

Grey area, depending on which answer is given. It seems to be a moving target. If they don't want us to do it, fine, so be it, it's their game, their call.However....just for comparison's sake....the same kind of thing is viewed differently by Blizzard. It's acceptable.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/ind...M_Conversations

If nothing else, that kind of clarity in a response - either positive or negative - would be helpful.

Waekith · 12-17-2009, 02:23 PM

If you are in control of 4 toons, present at the controls ensuring no "automation" or "botting" occurs while you're away from the controls, then it should be allowed to use 3rd party software to enchance your gaming experience.

I see nothing wrong with using isboxer/innerspace - seeing all 4 accounts on 1 screen at the same time, where you can tell toon 1 to do combat art1, toon 2 to heal art1, toon 3 to do mezart1, toon 4 to do spell1 all with the same keypress.

you physically told toon 1 to do an action, you physically told toon 2 to do a different action, you physically told toon 3 to do a different action, and physically told toon 4 to another action.

ALL while being in control of all 4 accounts, present at the controls, doing different tasks, what difference does it make if you did all of that with 1 keypress? "its not a macro" it's not botting, or "automation" of anything.

If SOE bans use of innerspace and isboxer or keyclone software of anykind, then I too will be SEVERELY DEPRESSED, I have been playing this game since eq1 beta, until eq2 beta came out, then switched to Eq2 - I do NOT want to play another game at all, ever, I am a loyal paying customer, I do not prevent others from content or cause grief to others while I play, I absolutely HATE raiding and the NEED to raid to get epics/mythicals and even more HATE the NEED to be in a Lvl 80 group w/ full 200 aa's to get shards from the rediculously difficult TSO dungeons. I honestly would rather play Group quest. or Solo Quest w/ Group Ability with other online players. - If you want to raid then yes, loot should be better, have up to your 24 player limit, and then the difficultly should be harder, but now, your saying its solo quest (where it is completely hopeless for me to get anything better then solo type loot) heroic is now out of the question for me, since I cant control my own group.

Will SOE be responisble for the mass suicide of their playerbase? I am not alone in the way that I play, and I am positive you will be losing a lot of loyal customers if you choose to play the "i'll ban you, because i can" game even though the player did absolutely nothing wrong. and if you let other players "just get away with it" even though nothing wrong is being done, and they just havent gotten reported yet... is wrong as well.

We NEED a deffinate answer ASAP - I'm not going anywhere until you ban me either way, but if that ban ever happens because of "using 3rd party software" even though I play 100% legit, then /cry i give up.... I dont want to leave or get banned, and I definately want to continue multiboxing like how I have been for tha past 2 years.

therodge · 12-17-2009, 03:00 PM

Waekith wrote:

If you are in control of 4 toons, present at the controls ensuring no "automation" or "botting" occurs while you're away from the controls, then it should be allowed to use 3rd party software to enchance your gaming experience.
I see nothing wrong with using isboxer/innerspace - seeing all 4 accounts on 1 screen at the same time, where you can tell toon 1 to do combat art1, toon 2 to heal art1, toon 3 to do mezart1, toon 4 to do spell1 all with the same keypress.
you physically told toon 1 to do an action, you physically told toon 2 to do a different action, you physically told toon 3 to do a different action, and physically told toon 4 to another action.
ALL while being in control of all 4 accounts, present at the controls, doing different tasks, what difference does it make if you did all of that with 1 keypress? "its not a macro" it's not botting, or "automation" of anything.
If SOE bans use of innerspace and isboxer or keyclone software of anykind, then I too will be SEVERELY DEPRESSED, I have been playing this game since eq1 beta, until eq2 beta came out, then switched to Eq2 - I do NOT want to play another game at all, ever, I am a loyal paying customer, I do not prevent others from content or cause grief to others while I play, I absolutely HATE raiding and the NEED to raid to get epics/mythicals and even more HATE the NEED to be in a Lvl 80 group w/ full 200 aa's to get shards from the rediculously difficult TSO dungeons. I honestly would rather play Group quest. or Solo Quest w/ Group Ability with other online players. - If you want to raid then yes, loot should be better, have up to your 24 player limit, and then the difficultly should be harder, but now, your saying its solo quest (where it is completely hopeless for me to get anything better then solo type loot) heroic is now out of the question for me, since I cant control my own group.
Will SOE be responisble for the mass suicide of their playerbase? I am not alone in the way that I play, and I am positive you will be losing a lot of loyal customers if you choose to play the "i'll ban you, because i can" game even though the player did absolutely nothing wrong. and if you let other players "just get away with it" even though nothing wrong is being done, and they just havent gotten reported yet... is wrong as well.
We NEED a deffinate answer ASAP - I'm not going anywhere until you ban me either way, but if that ban ever happens because of "using 3rd party software" even though I play 100% legit, then /cry i give up.... I dont want to leave or get banned, and I definately want to continue multiboxing like how I have been for tha past 2 years.

chill with the rage man, seriously, the fact that they let you use 3rd party software to make their game significantly easier is behond me, bnut seriously chill before you blow a blood vessel

Gadge · 12-17-2009, 03:13 PM

GMs are always giving conflicting info on this. I was about to start a boxing team in January but after reading the link on the OPs post I am holding off until we get clarification. I don't want to start toons and then get some GMs saying I am not allowed to do it. :-/

SOE please let us know one way or the other - I think stuff like Keyclone etc should be allowed.

Jonaroth · 12-17-2009, 03:24 PM

Noaani wrote:

I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons.
4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands.

Not true at all.. I two box on 1 computer, and sure I can tank with my paly and do dps with my mage at the same time, if you dont have software help, and you just do Alt+Tab, your DPS and agro hold goes down nearly 50% switching back and fourth between instances. This is not the case with using 2 machines to, as you can press 1-9 on both keyboards or mice at the same time. So in order to be AFFECTIVE multly boxer using 1 computer, you must use software help. You're doing it wrong if you arnt. doesn't matter if you're playing 2 toons, 3, or even 6.

Kiara · 12-17-2009, 03:26 PM

INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!!

End of debate SMILEY Thank you very much everyone SMILEY

Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248)

6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts.

So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players.

12-17-2009, 09:44 AM	#2
Noaani Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,077	I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons. 4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands. __________________ The superior man knows what is right. The inferior man knows what will sell. Confucius

12-17-2009, 12:18 PM	#4
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Noaani wrote: I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons. 4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands. So you can see all 4 on one 21" monitor at the same time. __________________

12-17-2009, 12:23 PM	#5
feldon30 Fansite Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,424	We're talking about SOE actively going after users who use KVM and input redirection type software. It's not botting or unattended gameplay. __________________ .. EQ2Wire.com \| EQ2U - Character, Item, Spell, and Guild Data

12-17-2009, 12:26 PM	#6
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	highlander133 wrote: So - really, simply put as possible: Is it legal to utilize a program like InnerSpace or ISBoxer to multibox in EQ2? Not to farm, not to cheat in any way, but simply multibox. Thank you for your time. You wont get an answer, or atleast I don't think they'll give you an answer. It wouldn't surprise me that ISBoxer users on pvp may end up ruining the entire thing for the rest of us. __________________

12-17-2009, 12:31 PM	#7
Blackadder Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 26	Atan@Unrest wrote: highlander133 wrote: So - really, simply put as possible: Is it legal to utilize a program like InnerSpace or ISBoxer to multibox in EQ2? Not to farm, not to cheat in any way, but simply multibox. Thank you for your time. You wont get an answer, or atleast I don't think they'll give you an answer. It wouldn't surprise me that ISBoxer users on pvp may end up ruining the entire thing for the rest of us. There's an argument I can understand. Although, I'm not on PvP so have no clue what the impact is. I don't harvest/craft at the moment either, so I don't think I'm ruining anyone's economy. I bought three accounts for me and my family (trying to get them addicted to something I've enjoyed off and on since beta). They weren't into it. I stumbled on to multiboxing (from these very forums, mind you), tried it out, decided I wanted to make a whole group and see the parts of the world I could never touch solo (and guilding when you're low level is a joke. Either you can't group because everyone's 80 or they mentor and you fly past stuff so quick you never get to see it). Getting to run through Nek Castle and see the quests the way they were meant to be played and level and loot appropriately (and die a lot, because I wasn't that gifted a player solo, and now I juggle a group) was FUN. Hope that doesn't change.

12-17-2009, 09:31 AM	#1
highlander133 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14	Hi, Recently, there has been some new statements through GMs regarding multiboxing and third party software apps for EQ2. I had been under the impression that using software like ISBoxer and InnerSpace was acceptable, due to statements like these: http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=19768 ----------------- 1. Yes {Original Question - Do you allow Hardware multi-boxing?} 2. Yes {Original Question - Do you allow Software multi-boxing?} 3. If you are at your computer while the character is being played, then multi-boxing is fine. Generally speaking we will only take action against people who automate their characters to play unattended. If you are suspected of botting then the GM will typically send the character a tell to see if they are at the keyboard. {Original Question - What are your rules for distinguishing multi-boxing from botting?} 4. While performing actions with the specific intent of causing grief for other players is against the rules, mutliboxing would not have an effect on this. {Original Question - Do you have "fair play" clauses in your EULA that multi-boxers should be particularly aware of? - Fair play clauses are things like intentionally griefing other players or blocking other players from using content.}... 7. I don't believe the game has any protections like what you are describing. I am not a multiboxer myself, so there may be some problems I'm not aware of. Still, I know others who have done it without issue. Keep in mind that multi-boxing is considered 'unsupported' play so we can't provide technical support related to running multiple instances of the game. {Original Question - Do you have specific guards in place to prevent certain actions? Specifically, many games do not like to run in the background. Many programs "correct" this by locking a window into the foreground. In some cases, this "foreground only" behavior is unintentional. In other cases, this is fully intended to prevent people from playing more than one copy of the same game on one computer. In the latter instance, software boxing would be a violation of your EULA if a "lock in foreground" mechanism was used, but may well be allowed if alt-tabbing between instances to repeat key presses was used. Or neither may be allowed, meaning software multi-boxing is a violation in your game and any attempt to do so is actionable.} ---------------------- However, lately there have been messages from GMs indicating that the use of programs like ISBoxer are considered illegal: http://www.dual-boxing.com/showthread.php?t=27225 Looking around those forums, you can see that other games, such as WoW, allow (or even endorse) multiboxing. But it appears as though there may be a shift in what is allowed here by SOE. So - really, simply put as possible: Is it legal to utilize a program like InnerSpace or ISBoxer to multibox in EQ2? Not to farm, not to cheat in any way, but simply multibox. Thank you for your time.

12-17-2009, 12:34 PM	#8
Mikkahl Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Colorado mountains Posts: 472	The only software I use to 2-box is Stardock Multiplicity, which lets me use one keyboard and mouse for 2 computers (by dragging the mouse pointer across monitors to select the one getting input). By definition, any mouse click or keystroke only goes to the one computer that is currently selected, so no "simultaneous keystrokes to 2 computers" are possible. For hardware, I use a Nostromo n52 (yes the original) on the left computer to make one-handed healing possible! I don't think I could manage 2-box adventuring (or 2-box crafting!) without it! I still can't imagine 4- or 6-boxing effectively. Maybe that's where simultaneous keystrokes to multiple characters becomes necessary? __________________ _________________________________ Mikkahl - Paladin. Master Tailor & 400 tinkerer Mikkent - Fury, Master Alchemist & 260 muter Mikkaela - Conjuror, Master Provisioner & 400 tinkerer Morgena - Ranger and Woodworker Oogana - Master Jeweler Mikkarrgh - Weaponsmith Antonia Bayle Server Vindicator's guild

12-17-2009, 12:39 PM	#9
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Mikkahl wrote: Maybe that's where simultaneous keystrokes to multiple characters becomes necessary? It makes it less stressful for sure. And there are dozens of software and hardware sollutions for accomplishing that task. There is even a multiplicity varriant that allows you to clone the mouse/kb vs just span pc's. Previously, all indications from SoE GM staffs was these things were ok as there was no automation, you were responsible and directing each stroke yourself. There was no program creating delays, loops, macros, etc. It certainly appears that they've changed that stance based upon the responses the OP links. To be perfectly honest, if ISBoxer is out, I'm probably done with EQ2 as well. I enjoy boxing for fun, and the PiP window management makes things so much easier, that if I have to go back to the old way of doing it, I'll just find a new game. __________________

12-17-2009, 12:43 PM	#10
Seidhkona Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 4,115	If you are unsure, do a /petition and direct the question to the GM staff that way for a definative answer. YOu may or may not get one here, because posts addressed to devs are supposed to be ignored by the forum rules. __________________

12-17-2009, 12:47 PM	#11
highlander133 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14	Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote: If you are unsure, do a /petition and direct the question to the GM staff that way for a definative answer. YOu may or may not get one here, because posts addressed to devs are supposed to be ignored by the forum rules. That's the problem. Petitions have gotten conflicting answers.

12-17-2009, 01:00 PM	#12
Davngr1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,179	it's don't ask, don't tell and if you get reported by enough people for blocking content or being an [Removed for Content] prepare to be banned. __________________

12-17-2009, 01:43 PM	#13
kevincann Seer Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 62	Atan@Unrest wrote: Mikkahl wrote: To be perfectly honest, if ISBoxer is out, I'm probably done with EQ2 as well. I enjoy boxing for fun, and the PiP window management makes things so much easier, that if I have to go back to the old way of doing it, I'll just find a new game. Ditto. Since the developers broke the grouping aspect of the game, by dumbing down so much of the contentto compete with the 'other game', 2 or 3 boxing has been the only way I could continue to play the game anddo old world content -- no I can't spend an hour to find a group when an hour is all i have to play durding a weekday. If boxing becomes forbidden, I too must take my leave of the game. I imagine I'd go to 'the other game', as muchas I dislike many aspects of it.

12-17-2009, 02:13 PM	#14
Noaani Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,077	Atan@Unrest wrote: Noaani wrote: I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons. 4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands. So you can see all 4 on one 21" monitor at the same time. This is not third party software affecting EQ2, its affecting windows. It doesn't actually have an effect on how you play the game, rather, it has an effect on how many monitors you need to use to do it. Anything that makes it easier to click what you need to click, or press the button you need to press is not an issue. Anything that allows you to activate an ability on two seperate characters with one click or press, however, is getting in to a very *dark* grey area. If this is what a player is doing, I would not be at all supprised to see them get banned for doing so. While its not "unattended gameplay", it is "unintended gameplay", which is in the EULA as a bannable offence (among other things, including nothing at all). Basically, the developers have an intention with this game. Anything a player does that goes against that intention is considered against this portion of the EULA. Casting a heal on a healer and a taunt on a tank with one button press is against that intention. While this is a grey area, its not really that much of one. All you need to do is think whether what you are doing is what the developers intended you to do or not. Its not about what you can and can not do, its about what their intent is. __________________ The superior man knows what is right. The inferior man knows what will sell. Confucius

12-17-2009, 02:20 PM	#15
highlander133 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 14	Noaani wrote: This is not third party software affecting EQ2, its affecting windows. It doesn't actually have an effect on how you play the game, rather, it has an effect on how many monitors you need to use to do it. Anything that makes it easier to click what you need to click, or press the button you need to press is not an issue. Anything that allows you to activate an ability on two seperate characters with one click or press, however, is getting in to a very *dark* grey area. If this is what a player is doing, I would not be at all supprised to see them get banned for doing so. While its not "unattended gameplay", it is "unintended gameplay", which is in the EULA as a bannable offence (among other things, including nothing at all). Basically, the developers have an intention with this game. Anything a player does that goes against that intention is considered against this portion of the EULA. Casting a heal on a healer and a taunt on a tank with one button press is against that intention. While this is a grey area, its not really that much of one. All you need to do is think whether what you are doing is what the developers intended you to do or not. Its not about what you can and can not do, its about what their intent is. Grey area, depending on which answer is given. It seems to be a moving target. If they don't want us to do it, fine, so be it, it's their game, their call.However....just for comparison's sake....the same kind of thing is viewed differently by Blizzard. It's acceptable. http://www.dual-boxing.com/wiki/ind...M_Conversations If nothing else, that kind of clarity in a response - either positive or negative - would be helpful.

12-17-2009, 02:23 PM	#16
Waekith Newbie Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1	If you are in control of 4 toons, present at the controls ensuring no "automation" or "botting" occurs while you're away from the controls, then it should be allowed to use 3rd party software to enchance your gaming experience. I see nothing wrong with using isboxer/innerspace - seeing all 4 accounts on 1 screen at the same time, where you can tell toon 1 to do combat art1, toon 2 to heal art1, toon 3 to do mezart1, toon 4 to do spell1 all with the same keypress. you physically told toon 1 to do an action, you physically told toon 2 to do a different action, you physically told toon 3 to do a different action, and physically told toon 4 to another action. ALL while being in control of all 4 accounts, present at the controls, doing different tasks, what difference does it make if you did all of that with 1 keypress? "its not a macro" it's not botting, or "automation" of anything. If SOE bans use of innerspace and isboxer or keyclone software of anykind, then I too will be SEVERELY DEPRESSED, I have been playing this game since eq1 beta, until eq2 beta came out, then switched to Eq2 - I do NOT want to play another game at all, ever, I am a loyal paying customer, I do not prevent others from content or cause grief to others while I play, I absolutely HATE raiding and the NEED to raid to get epics/mythicals and even more HATE the NEED to be in a Lvl 80 group w/ full 200 aa's to get shards from the rediculously difficult TSO dungeons. I honestly would rather play Group quest. or Solo Quest w/ Group Ability with other online players. - If you want to raid then yes, loot should be better, have up to your 24 player limit, and then the difficultly should be harder, but now, your saying its solo quest (where it is completely hopeless for me to get anything better then solo type loot) heroic is now out of the question for me, since I cant control my own group. Will SOE be responisble for the mass suicide of their playerbase? I am not alone in the way that I play, and I am positive you will be losing a lot of loyal customers if you choose to play the "i'll ban you, because i can" game even though the player did absolutely nothing wrong. and if you let other players "just get away with it" even though nothing wrong is being done, and they just havent gotten reported yet... is wrong as well. We NEED a deffinate answer ASAP - I'm not going anywhere until you ban me either way, but if that ban ever happens because of "using 3rd party software" even though I play 100% legit, then /cry i give up.... I dont want to leave or get banned, and I definately want to continue multiboxing like how I have been for tha past 2 years.

12-17-2009, 03:00 PM	#17
therodge Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 824	Waekith wrote: If you are in control of 4 toons, present at the controls ensuring no "automation" or "botting" occurs while you're away from the controls, then it should be allowed to use 3rd party software to enchance your gaming experience. I see nothing wrong with using isboxer/innerspace - seeing all 4 accounts on 1 screen at the same time, where you can tell toon 1 to do combat art1, toon 2 to heal art1, toon 3 to do mezart1, toon 4 to do spell1 all with the same keypress. you physically told toon 1 to do an action, you physically told toon 2 to do a different action, you physically told toon 3 to do a different action, and physically told toon 4 to another action. ALL while being in control of all 4 accounts, present at the controls, doing different tasks, what difference does it make if you did all of that with 1 keypress? "its not a macro" it's not botting, or "automation" of anything. If SOE bans use of innerspace and isboxer or keyclone software of anykind, then I too will be SEVERELY DEPRESSED, I have been playing this game since eq1 beta, until eq2 beta came out, then switched to Eq2 - I do NOT want to play another game at all, ever, I am a loyal paying customer, I do not prevent others from content or cause grief to others while I play, I absolutely HATE raiding and the NEED to raid to get epics/mythicals and even more HATE the NEED to be in a Lvl 80 group w/ full 200 aa's to get shards from the rediculously difficult TSO dungeons. I honestly would rather play Group quest. or Solo Quest w/ Group Ability with other online players. - If you want to raid then yes, loot should be better, have up to your 24 player limit, and then the difficultly should be harder, but now, your saying its solo quest (where it is completely hopeless for me to get anything better then solo type loot) heroic is now out of the question for me, since I cant control my own group. Will SOE be responisble for the mass suicide of their playerbase? I am not alone in the way that I play, and I am positive you will be losing a lot of loyal customers if you choose to play the "i'll ban you, because i can" game even though the player did absolutely nothing wrong. and if you let other players "just get away with it" even though nothing wrong is being done, and they just havent gotten reported yet... is wrong as well. We NEED a deffinate answer ASAP - I'm not going anywhere until you ban me either way, but if that ban ever happens because of "using 3rd party software" even though I play 100% legit, then /cry i give up.... I dont want to leave or get banned, and I definately want to continue multiboxing like how I have been for tha past 2 years. chill with the rage man, seriously, the fact that they let you use 3rd party software to make their game significantly easier is behond me, bnut seriously chill before you blow a blood vessel

12-17-2009, 03:13 PM	#18
Gadge General Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 53	GMs are always giving conflicting info on this. I was about to start a boxing team in January but after reading the link on the OPs post I am holding off until we get clarification. I don't want to start toons and then get some GMs saying I am not allowed to do it. :-/ SOE please let us know one way or the other - I think stuff like Keyclone etc should be allowed.

12-17-2009, 03:24 PM	#19
Jonaroth Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Newport Beach, CA Posts: 761	Noaani wrote: I don't get why anyone would use any software for multi-boxing less than 5 toons. 4 can be handled without any such "assistance" just fine, assuming the person has 2 fully functional hands. Not true at all.. I two box on 1 computer, and sure I can tank with my paly and do dps with my mage at the same time, if you dont have software help, and you just do Alt+Tab, your DPS and agro hold goes down nearly 50% switching back and fourth between instances. This is not the case with using 2 machines to, as you can press 1-9 on both keyboards or mice at the same time. So in order to be AFFECTIVE multly boxer using 1 computer, you must use software help. You're doing it wrong if you arnt. doesn't matter if you're playing 2 toons, 3, or even 6. __________________

12-17-2009, 03:26 PM	#20
Kiara Community Relations Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4,359	INC OFFICIAL RESPONSE!!! End of debate Thank you very much everyone Our terms of service state: (http://soe-ing.custhelp.com/cgi-bin...p?p_faqid=12248) 6. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) and/or suspend your Account immediately and without notice: (i) if you violate any provision of this Agreement; (ii) infringe any third party intellectual property rights; (iii) if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us; (iv) upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which we, in our sole discretion, determine is inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game; (v) upon any violation of the Station Terms of Service and/or the Game Rules of Conduct and/or (vi) upon any violation of the Exchange Agreement. If we terminate this Agreement or suspend your Account under these circumstances, you will lose access to your Account for the duration of the suspension and/or the balance of any prepaid period without any refund. We may also terminate this Agreement if we decide, in our sole discretion, to discontinue offering the Game, in which case we may provide you with a prorated refund of any prepaid amounts. So, multiboxing if you control all 6 characters signally and you have to type a command for all 6 characters separately is ok. Multi-boxing with the use of hardware OR software which allows you to control 6 characters with 1 command is not ok and considered in violation of the spirit of the game as it gives the player(s) an advantage over other players.