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Unread 12-05-2009, 01:27 AM   #1
RootXArtemis

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One of the problems currently is that guilds have 4 shamans, 1 druid, 3 clerics.

One thing that could help alleviate this problem:

Make most group buffs simply into raidwide buffs, there already a few, but there is no reason to apply this to almost all (not all) group buffs - this would eliminate a bias for HP buffs, etc in groups as the buffs would not stack.

What would this mean? : If each healer class has a 1k raidwide hp buff then the raid gets 6k more hp, thus the mob dmg output goes up to make up for this. If the RL is thinking of swapping a fury out for a mystic in one group then they won't do it as they would prefer everyone having 1k more hp than the 6k group ward the mystic has (6k ward would make it equal for the group, but not the raid). Note: I realize that it shouldn't be made so that it is absolutely necessary to have those 6k hp as it's veyr difficult to regularly have a perfect setup of 1 class per raid, but this should help towards having one of each of the 24 subclasses in a raid be the preferred setup.

Further tweaking would need to be done of course to make sure individual healer abilities aren't too out of balance to still prefer having 2 defilers rather than 1 defiler and 1 fury.

However, I believe this would help generally to make it more desirable to have all subclasses in a raid.

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Unread 12-05-2009, 02:20 AM   #2
RogueSpideyChick

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actually most high end raid guilds have 4 shaman & 4 clerics, no druids. & it's not the hp buffs alone that make druids not wanted, it's ALL the buffs that they have. ae's in tso (mostly physical) hit for incredibly hard on their own, they dont need tweaking up.

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Unread 12-05-2009, 02:51 AM   #3
RootXArtemis

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Yes that is the issue I am trying to address. What you are saying is extra reasons to make buffs raidwide, if all those buffs were raidwide it would make no sense to have 4 shammies, 4 clerics - if the druids buffs on top of that were good enough on their own then they would be indispensable for hte raid as the entire raid woudl benefit not just their group. If say druids acutally had better raidwide hp buffs than shammies and clerics, this would also help to make life easier for druids in groups (in groups the buff would be groupwide obviously).

The example I gave with the 6k group ward in combination with all healers having proper raidwide buffs is what I meant to be the solution to the problem you stated.

1st step: make buffs equally viable, so having a templar hp buff is not better than the warden one

2nd step: make them raidwide so that you want all 6 healers in a raid to stack buffs (as 2x templars wouldn't help hp for any group as all would just get the hp from one of the templar buffs)

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Unread 12-05-2009, 06:34 AM   #4
Tehom

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I think the idea isn't without its merits, although we could quibble about the specifics. A meaningful raidwide buff for each priest class would help diminish the strong rewards of stacking the same shamans/clerics in every group.

One thing that I would point out though, just because it's kind of illustrative of why druids have issues, is that a '6k group ward' is very small compared to the numbers high end shamans put out now. The degree of survivability a shaman adds when they aren't disrupted/can cast is enormous, and inquisitors are incredibly strong at reducing that disruption via curing. The problems druids have are a lot more complicated than just hp buffs, though that's probably the largest part of it.

Personally, if it were me, I'd make druids enhance damage/protect dps to a degree unparalleled by the other priests. They'd have spells to either grant short-term immunity to all status effects, proc such immunity, as well as the new things like disarms, anti-hostiles, and base decreases which currently don't have any sort of protection. Like for example, I'd change feral to be a group buff that also procced immunity to stun, stifle, daze, interrupt, disarm, anti-hostile, target clearing, and prevented up to 500% of base damage decreases on any successful attack. You do something like that for both druids and no one in their right mind wouldn't run them in dps groups on a lot of fight, poor curing and survivability or not.

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Unread 12-05-2009, 01:27 PM   #5
RootXArtemis

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Another thought I had to improve druid desirability is to give them temporary large group-wide hp buffs. In the sense that druid could increase group hp by 3k for 10 seconds every minute or so (just an example, numbers would be different of course). This could help address the 1-shot issue with AEs in dps groups (although I agree Chath, druids need to be set to definitely give an advantage for dps groups - particularly furies, I could see wardens being put back in the MT group if dirge buffs (particularly stoneskin and hatebuff) were raidwide.

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Unread 12-06-2009, 01:25 PM   #6
Tehom

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I think the tack I'd take for wardens would be as a facillitator to other healers. Like group immunity to knockback, target clears/locks/taunts, to reduction of base heal or crit, stifle/stun/interrupt, and immunity to level decrease. More emergency abilities would kind of go along with their playstyle also - maybe great improvements to their death prevents along with shorter reuses (though there's still the problem with multiple death prevents all using triggers simultaneously, which is a problem with bloodletter with more people using SK tanks now).

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Unread 12-06-2009, 01:40 PM   #7
RootXArtemis

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Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I think the tack I'd take for wardens would be as a facillitator to other healers. Like group immunity to knockback, target clears/locks/taunts, to reduction of base heal or crit, stifle/stun/interrupt, and immunity to level decrease. More emergency abilities would kind of go along with their playstyle also - maybe great improvements to their death prevents along with shorter reuses (though there's still the problem with multiple death prevents all using triggers simultaneously, which is a problem with bloodletter with more people using SK tanks now).

I like those ideas - I agree that death prevention spells need to be looked at and significantly improved. With bloodletter they have become somewhat useless.

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Unread 12-07-2009, 01:24 PM   #8
nomatterwhat

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Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I think the tack I'd take for wardens would be as a facillitator to other healers. Like group immunity to knockback, target clears/locks/taunts, to reduction of base heal or crit, stifle/stun/interrupt, and immunity to level decrease. More emergency abilities would kind of go along with their playstyle also - maybe great improvements to their death prevents along with shorter reuses (though there's still the problem with multiple death prevents all using triggers simultaneously, which is a problem with bloodletter with more people using SK tanks now).

you want wardens/druids to be the faciliator to other healers? whatever...  why don't they make your defiler (assuming that's what you play by your image) a faciliator to my warden lol.  what crap.  If they make druids into a class that lets the big boy shammy/cleric healers do their job at healing even more so while I pretty much take care of the other stuff, I'd... I'd rage quit!

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Unread 12-07-2009, 03:36 PM   #9
Banditman

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They already did that with Furies on their Myth.  Wrath's Blessing is a nice buff, but it doesn't really address class balance much.  We certainly don't keep a Fury in our raid because of it.  We keep the Fury because she is just that @(*% good.

I'd love to have a second Fury that good, and in fact we've been seeking a "Leather Healer" for quite some time now, with absolutely no responses at all.  Sad.

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Unread 12-07-2009, 06:30 PM   #10
Tehom

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Karyin@Kithicor wrote:

Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I think the tack I'd take for wardens would be as a facillitator to other healers. Like group immunity to knockback, target clears/locks/taunts, to reduction of base heal or crit, stifle/stun/interrupt, and immunity to level decrease. More emergency abilities would kind of go along with their playstyle also - maybe great improvements to their death prevents along with shorter reuses (though there's still the problem with multiple death prevents all using triggers simultaneously, which is a problem with bloodletter with more people using SK tanks now).

you want wardens/druids to be the faciliator to other healers? whatever...  why don't they make your defiler (assuming that's what you play by your image) a faciliator to my warden lol.  what crap.  If they make druids into a class that lets the big boy shammy/cleric healers do their job at healing even more so while I pretty much take care of the other stuff, I'd... I'd rage quit!

Sorry. I mostly play classes that work in tandem with others - enchanters, bards, etc. Priests all fit that to some extent. But think of it this way. Currently, about half the priests have abilities that work against those things. Clerics have steadfast. Templars have sanctuary. Inquisitors have a self-cure, defilers have a group cure that can be used while stifled/stunned. Mystics have an uninterruptable cure so that can get rid of cureable interrupt effects. What druids have is your AA proc for stun immunity, and wardens have tranquility and can have shatter infections. You tend to fall pretty short in that area.

What you may not realize is that arguably the most important part of high end fights is how quickly and easily you deal with disruption. On any given fight, there's probably target locks/clears, effects that [Removed for Content] reuse/cast speed, effects that give huge penalties to base healing or spell or CA damage to reduce damage to 0, effects that change weapon damage multiplier for autoattack, stuns, stifles, dazes, can't-cast-hostile, can't-cast-beneficial, disarms, knockbacks, and much, much more. The value of many classes is based on either how they're able to ignore some of these or counteract them, but many of the effects don't have easy counters which could be given to druids to enhance their raid value. You're also probably not really thinking about how implicit in that sort of role would mean that the druids themselves would be least affected by that same sort of disruption. Granted, it wouldn't mean squat if there -isn't- anything like that, but how many tank-and-spank raid fights have we really seen? I can't think of -any- major fight in the expansion that doesn't have anything that meets that description, and could list examples all day.

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Unread 12-10-2009, 06:43 PM   #11
Carthr

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Karyin@Kithicor wrote:

Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I think the tack I'd take for wardens would be as a facillitator to other healers. Like group immunity to knockback, target clears/locks/taunts, to reduction of base heal or crit, stifle/stun/interrupt, and immunity to level decrease. More emergency abilities would kind of go along with their playstyle also - maybe great improvements to their death prevents along with shorter reuses (though there's still the problem with multiple death prevents all using triggers simultaneously, which is a problem with bloodletter with more people using SK tanks now).

you want wardens/druids to be the faciliator to other healers? whatever...  why don't they make your defiler (assuming that's what you play by your image) a faciliator to my warden lol.  what crap.  If they make druids into a class that lets the big boy shammy/cleric healers do their job at healing even more so while I pretty much take care of the other stuff, I'd... I'd rage quit!

Could just keep it the way it is, and have you facilitate the reserve raiders on the bench..

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