The Predator AA Tree

Sydares · 11-21-2009, 07:19 AM

Predator AA tree:While you're revamping AAs, please take a SERIOUS look at Stamina and Wisdom lines.The stamina line is great for assassins, but because of the puzzling lack of ranged autoattack support on Surrounding Attacks, it's entirely useless for the only other class that shares this AA tree.

The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers.As a ranger, there's no "Ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it, you only have One (1) viable spec for the predator tree [Strength: 4/6/4/8/1 Agi: 4/8/4/8/1 Int: 4/4/4/8/0 or minor variations therein according to flavor] , and that's boring as sin.

What can you do? 1) Unlink the Predator tree. Assassins and Rangers are simply too different to share any of the same AAs.2) Make it so the desirable effects WORK FOR BOTH CLASSES, and that there are desirable variations for varying playstyles for both classes. Currently, it's a complete mess that favors assassins to a ridiculous degree, but even they have limited options because so much of this tree is useless fluff.

Walford · 11-24-2009, 11:55 PM

seems reasonable to me. emphasis on the word 'SERIOUS' look.

Lethe5683 · 11-25-2009, 09:52 AM

Sydares wrote:

The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers. DPS

The wisdom line is really pretty crappy for assassins too except for soloing.

Sydares · 11-27-2009, 10:13 AM

Trisscuit@Lucan DLere wrote:

Sydares wrote:
The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers. DPS
The wisdom line is really pretty crappy for assassins too except for soloing.

I'd heard rumblings that the occasional assassin took it - I wouldn't touch it, myself, but I tried not to make sweeping generalizations where they didn't exist.

Neiloch · 11-28-2009, 09:43 AM

May be boring to not have that variation but in reality for any class to take full advantage of an aspect of their class there is only one spec. For a sk or pally they only have one spec that best utilizes tanking ability except for maybe minor adjustments for skills caps. But they can use a different spec for more DPS, just the same rangers COULD use a different spec for for more defense, it just wouldn't be worth using it in anything outside soloing. In terms of 'specs' and this goes for all MMO's that use this kind of system, if you are min/maxing there is only one overall spec unless they somehow managed to get perfect balance between skills which I have yet to see. Other specs may perform better in various uncommon situations, but there is usually a spec that works best in more situations than others. For rangers and predator tree its just more clear.

I suppose you could argue that the difference in quality of specs is much greater than other classes, but that doesn't really matter. For example say they changed the wisdom line to the point where is was just a little worse than strength line, would you switch? Or would you keep using the still better strength line? Even if they made it perfectly equal it would just be redundant, instead of people saying 'oh definitely get strength' they would just say 'get strength or wisdom, doesn't matter which one'

In the end for this type of stuff, there will always be a min/max spec, and the rest of the stuff is just for personal preference or fluff for people who don't care much for min/max'ing. If you think only having one spec as the best and a bunch of fluff is boring, imagine having dozens of skills that have the same amount of desirability to the point where it doesn't matter what you pick. Would be like a person trying to play with skill and another smashing the keyboard and getting the same results.

Sydares · 11-28-2009, 03:47 PM

Neiloch wrote:

May be boring to not have that variation but in reality for any class to take full advantage of an aspect of their class there is only one spec. For a sk or pally they only have one spec that best utilizes tanking ability except for maybe minor adjustments for skills caps. But they can use a different spec for more DPS, just the same rangers COULD use a different spec for for more defense, it just wouldn't be worth using it in anything outside soloing. In terms of 'specs' and this goes for all MMO's that use this kind of system, if you are min/maxing there is only one overall spec unless they somehow managed to get perfect balance between skills which I have yet to see. Other specs may perform better in various uncommon situations, but there is usually a spec that works best in more situations than others. For rangers and predator tree its just more clear.
I suppose you could argue that the difference in quality of specs is much greater than other classes, but that doesn't really matter. For example say they changed the wisdom line to the point where is was just a little worse than strength line, would you switch? Or would you keep using the still better strength line? Even if they made it perfectly equal it would just be redundant, instead of people saying 'oh definitely get strength' they would just say 'get strength or wisdom, doesn't matter which one'
In the end for this type of stuff, there will always be a min/max spec, and the rest of the stuff is just for personal preference or fluff for people who don't care much for min/max'ing. If you think only having one spec as the best and a bunch of fluff is boring, imagine having dozens of skills that have the same amount of desirability to the point where it doesn't matter what you pick. Would be like a person trying to play with skill and another smashing the keyboard and getting the same results.

While I understand what you're trying to say here, I fundamentally disagree. I know that there will always be a min/max spec, but as it stands, there are few options that are even viable to consider. I have never felt regret at being unable to go down a line that I did not go down, nor did I feel as though I offered anything unique over another ranger who had specced slightly differently.

The purpose of AAs shold not simply be to [Removed for Content] out your currently existing role. In an ideal situation, AAs should open up new oppurtunities and playstyles that were previously unavailable.

I'm not at issue with the fact that our existing AAs are too good or too bad, simply that there really aren't options because the ones that no is really taking are so pathetically awful that no one would ever consider them.

It's not a simple matter of it being a tradeoff or a difference in function, they are literally so awful that you would generally have to have no understanding of the game to take them. Wisdom is pathetic. Intelligence has become (now that spellcrit is dead) a boring last resort because other lines happen to be worse than it to take.

Because if there's no real choice or impact to AAs, they're not really AAs. They're just skill-ups, and that's hideously boring.

Neiloch · 11-28-2009, 04:04 PM

I see what your saying, but again what you want just isn't that common, all across MMO's. Closest thing i can think of on EQ2 is healers able to spec for more defense and DPS, but like I said this usually [Removed for Content] their healing pretty hardcore and doesn't make them a viable tank or DPS class, just nice for soloing. If the AA's could be so that they can basically change your archetype there would be no need for classes, as well as causing confusion for both the player and people they play with. Rangers and Assassins are DPS classes, if they got AA's that were so dramatic that they could buff as well as bard or tank as well as fighter, well they wouldn't be a ranger or assassin anymore. Just brings me back to my question though, if they made some line we didn't use better, but still not as good as the ones we use thus closing the gap in quality significantly, would you even switch?

Baynne · 11-28-2009, 11:21 PM

My issue with AAs is that almost every class has a "cookie-cutter" spec, meaning there is no point in specing any other way. For example, before they changed the warrior AAs, you pretty much had to spec stamina for double attack and use a goofy looking buckler in order to do decent damage. what sux about that is SoE finally changed it, and now you still have to spec sta for DA, but for 1/3 the amount you got before with a dinner plate on your arm. another good example of cookie-cutter specs you cant avoid is a sorceror. you pretty much HAVE to spec agi/wis for the end abilities and str for spell crit. taking sta is an option for solo but once you hit RoK content it doesn't help all that much, and i dont think anyone has ever taken the int line for a couple intertwining reasons. If you spec int, you lose a ton of DPS, which means you arent generating aggro anyway, so you dont even need the abilities in the int line to drop aggro.

as for the predator lines... wow lol. i just logged my ranger on to check it out. i spec'd agi first for casting speed... looking at the end ability in str, i do not need it yet as i have no abilities with a 2 minute reuse (only lvl 31 atm). in the stamina line... i personally dont melee unless i really have to... and usually only when soloing and the mob gets to me or in a group and i run out of ranged CAs. in wis the only ability even worth looking at is Obfuscation for the extra damage on the next stealth attack... unfortunately you have to grind through 12 points in 3 other useless AAs to get there. rangers already have several ways to reduce the hate generated... it is my opinion that all AAs should be geared toward the class' existing role. I think it would be cool for maybe one of the lines to add a buff that gives our ranged attacks added elemental damage or another that buffs our ranged attack damage or speed. There are plenty of ways to give us plenty of choices that are all viable and useful.

I'm not even sure i made any sense, so my apologies if i did not lol.

Neiloch · 11-28-2009, 11:31 PM

Thats the problem, when making AA type skills they can only go one of two ways. 1. Make skills with varying use which will result in cookie cutter, min/max specs 2. Make all skills equal or close to it resulting in no forethought or knowledge needed in creating a useful spec and it would be more fluff than anything else. Though I have to agree AA skills should be strongly geared towards a classes existing role if not further separating them from other classes. Adding skills that go against their primary function only serves to provide an opportunity for people to [Removed for Content] their character. Though maybe thats the min/max'er in me talking hehe.

Sydares · 11-28-2009, 11:59 PM

Well, it strikes me as puzzling that there exists such a possibility to invest in these extremely awful decisions that - until you get a chance to thoroughly test or someone whaps you upside the head for it - you have no logical way of figuring out. Most rangers by now know that the stamina line won't let you have a chance to hit other targets with your arrows. I'm assuming a technical limitation there that they haven't been bothered to work around, but I digress. It's especially prevalent in the shared AA trees - my poor SK needed to be laughed at before I found out that the heal crit AA is useless for them due to the fact that the game treats 'tap' abilities based on the damage crits. I'd always known this was the case for rangers, but it slipped my mind on speccing my baby SK.

Anyhow, you're absolutely right. I'm being idealistic, perhaps, but I feel this is the time to bring up the red-headed stepchild AA trees, and I hope to get into the beta for SF so I can further rant my head off about them before anything goes live.

Neiloch · 11-30-2009, 03:11 PM

They did better with shared AA skills in the TSO table, mainly because they were more generalized and applied to fundamental aspects of classes such as stances or just flatout increased a specific stat. Unfortunately this can work better for other classes much more than assassin/ranger. Assassins are closer to rogues than ranger yet we still share AA skills. For TSO I was in beta and helped push hard with fellow rangers for changes that actually made it through, before that Explosive Arrow wasn't an AE and the Hidden Embers improvement AA in TSO was a improvement for Immobilizing Lunge (root attack), and Arrow Reclamation was a skil lto summon [Removed for Content] poor arrows, and think focus Aim got changed from beta to live as well. So hopefully some smart rangers can get into beta and help with the new AA's as well. unfortunately if they are shared we may find ourselves in a tug-of-war with assassins.

Lethe5683 · 11-30-2009, 07:56 PM

Neiloch wrote:

So hopefully some smart rangers can get into beta and help with the new AA's as well. unfortunately if they are shared we may find ourselves in a tug-of-war with assassins.

I'm an assassin and don't think that we need any changes for our predator AA trees since we already have more than 1 viable option. STA line for better AoE dps and INT line for better ST DPS.

glowsintheda · 11-30-2009, 08:03 PM

which is exactly the problem, we don't even have the option of the sta line for better AE DPS because it doesn't affect our autoattack. They make all this stuff that works for assassins and not for rangers, and then give it to us as an option when they know we won't use it. They seriously need to make it so that flurry and ae attack both work on ranged autoattack. otherwise we will continue to be presented with shared AA lines that offer us things we can not use.

Lethe5683 · 11-30-2009, 08:13 PM

glowsinthedark wrote:

which is exactly the problem, we don't even have the option of the sta line for better AE DPS because it doesn't affect our autoattack. They make all this stuff that works for assassins and not for rangers, and then give it to us as an option when they know we won't use it. They seriously need to make it so that flurry and ae attack both work on ranged autoattack. otherwise we will continue to be presented with shared AA lines that offer us things we can not use.

That might be hard for them to do, and would be fairly overpowered as well. They should take one of the useless lines like WIS and make it into a ranger only line for increasing AoE DPS through other means.

Neiloch · 11-30-2009, 08:23 PM

Never saw why they couldn't apply some modifier to the AE thing so it evens out with bow attacks. Obviously if it worked just like melee but with our bow it would be OP'd but they can lower the frequency when using a bow or lower the damage of the AE portion of the attacks so its simply not the full amount of auto attack damage. Also make it AE outward from your main target like Natural Selection does instead of from the character.

In general rangers need a fast recast/frequent AE attack if they are going to keep putting in this amount of AE fights in the future.

glowsintheda · 12-01-2009, 12:12 AM

I realize that it is hard, if not impossible for them to justify giving it to rangers, but the main point of my post was that there we have an assassin saying all is well with predator tree, there are plenty of options, when there really aren't any for rangers. I can see the same thing going forward with the new expansion where they add a line for flurry or more AE attack and the assassins will be pulling for it big time and we will wind up with nothing worthwhile and be told to suck it up like we have so far. I've recall seeing something somewhere to the effect that we should just suck it up, that we have the option to use the AE autoattack, just have to use melee auto attack, we just choose not to.

Neiloch · 12-01-2009, 12:22 AM

Yeah i remember someone saying jsut get the AE auto attack than melee lmfao. Then again with them merging crit and double attack if they do add stuff like those we won't get left out. Be nice if they made a bow AE and merged it with a modifier of like .25 so for every 4% of melee ae bow gets 1%

Sydares · 12-01-2009, 10:31 AM

Lethe5683 wrote:

That might be hard for them to do, and would be fairly overpowered as well. They should take one of the useless lines like WIS and make it into a ranger only line for increasing AoE DPS through other means.

See, I think that's a fair compromise. Turning one of the underutilized trees into something like that.

-=Hoss=- · 12-03-2009, 05:58 PM

I'm pretty sure that originally the agi line was supposed to be for rangers. The devs just didn't realize that casting speed was pwnsauce for everyone. In fact, almost no one seemed to realize it until like RoK came out.

Neiloch · 12-03-2009, 06:34 PM

Bottom line is almost nothing got put in for rangers if other scouts/assassins didnt also benefit from it, but only until recently has there been stuff tailored for rangers. In a way it makes sense because if something is made for rangers only 1/24 of the classes benefit and I seriously doubt rangers make up 1/24 of the 'main character' population. Just another argument for the crit merges, hopefully it will apply to old AA skills as well.

Kenstin1983 · 12-30-2009, 12:28 PM

What exactly does Perfectionist do for Rangers? It says any combart art with a re-use timer of 2 minutes or more gets that timer reduced by 50% and increases the damage. Do rangers have a lot of combat arts with a 2 minute or longer respawn timer?

Neiloch · 12-30-2009, 01:39 PM

From what i can remember it helps Sniper shot and storm of arrows, both of which are very nice parsing CA's for rangers (especially storm of arrows imo). It should also apply to arrow barrage but I think there is still a bug where it's not working properly right now.

Kenstin1983 · 12-30-2009, 02:04 PM

Wow that's huge. With Perfectionist sniper shot goes from a 15 minute cooldown to 7.5 minutes, and gets its damage increased by 15%. That's 2 points well spent. Thanks for the help. I'm still fairly new to Eq2 SMILEY Just started my ranger 3 weeks ago.

Kvik · 01-05-2010, 06:21 PM

Would be great if it did indeed half the reuse time, but it doesnt, My Storm is down to 2 min and Sniper down to 10 with perfectionist. Got to love Sony math....

Noob1974 · 01-06-2010, 09:45 AM

The problem with the KOS Tree is that with STR,AGI ( Endline Ability),STA and INT there were 4 suitable line for assasins whiel they were only AGI, INT (till poison proc nerf) and partly STR for Melee Crit bonus because our best CA DPS wise, zonewides, is our Melee Dot.

Secondary Assasins are no longer predators officially but still share the predator tree. They are rogues and should therefore use the rogue tree, which brings the problem can you have a KOS Tree for only class......

Ranja · 01-06-2010, 11:51 AM

Noob1974 wrote:

The problem with the KOS Tree is that with STR,AGI ( Endline Ability),STA and INT there were 4 suitable line for assasins whiel they were only AGI, INT (till poison proc nerf) and partly STR for Melee Crit bonus because our best CA DPS wise, zonewides, is our Melee Dot.
Secondary Assasins are no longer predators officially but still share the predator tree. They are rogues and should therefore use the rogue tree, which brings the problem can you have a KOS Tree for only class......

Get ready to be disappointed. Someone leaked the new AA over on that other board. Rangers get screwed big time again. They gave an endline ability in the KoS tree that basically only benefits assassins. And our AA simply upgrade the damage on our already useless CAs. 10% to stream! [Removed for Content], get rid of that. 15% to immobilizing lunge, 10% to storm, linger duration on cheap shot, more snare on snaring shot. Compared to the assassin AAs, they are teh suk.

Thank god I quit this game so I don't need to go through this b.s again.

Hexus · 01-06-2010, 02:14 PM

If any of you developers read these forums, send me a PM or tell in game. Obviously no one who designs these abilities or AA's has ever played a ranger or has any idea of how the class works.

I can only hope that the AA tree in SF gets changed from what's currently listed on those "other" forums, because what you've given me is a ticket to betray and finish the other mythical quest line.

10% damage increase to Stream of Arrows? Are you kidding me? You could give that spell a 50% increase to damage and it STILL WOULD NOT BE WORTH USING. Remove the stun/stifle and make it AE, give it 25-35% increase, and maybe then we'll talk about putting it back on a hot bar.

I can't believe that there's anyone that even remotely understands how rangers work who designs this game, the primary problem being that they are the ONLY ranged scout class.

I would almost prefer them be removed from the game than relegated to this, and I've been playing a ranger non-stop since Beta EQ 1.

Hexus

Ranja · 01-06-2010, 03:11 PM

Hexus wrote:

If any of you developers read these forums, send me a PM or tell in game. Obviously no one who designs these abilities or AA's has ever played a ranger or has any idea of how the class works.
I can only hope that the AA tree in SF gets changed from what's currently listed on those "other" forums, because what you've given me is a ticket to betray and finish the other mythical quest line.
10% damage increase to Stream of Arrows? Are you kidding me? You could give that spell a 50% increase to damage and it STILL WOULD NOT BE WORTH USING. Remove the stun/stifle and make it AE, give it 25-35% increase, and maybe then we'll talk about putting it back on a hot bar.
I can't believe that there's anyone that even remotely understands how rangers work who designs this game, the primary problem being that they are the ONLY ranged scout class.
I would almost prefer them be removed from the game than relegated to this, and I've been playing a ranger non-stop since Beta EQ 1.
Hexus

the endline abiltiy in the predator tree allows the predator to bypass stealth requirements for their CAs. So all those hard hitting stealthed CAs rangers have.....wait we don't have any, those are all assassin CAs. yipee!

Yay we also get an AA that increases our base auto-attack modifer - for melee attacks only!!! Yay again!

Let's see they also improved our hawk dive to siphon more hate!! Yay again!

We do however get anothe AOE CA which is nice. Pretty low damage but at least it is something new.

-=Hoss=- · 01-06-2010, 05:23 PM

Nevermind

Grats on your incoming ban.

Kiara · 01-06-2010, 05:32 PM

Ranja wrote:

Get ready to be disappointed. Someone leaked the new AA over on that other board. Rangers get screwed big time again. They gave an endline ability in the KoS tree that basically only benefits assassins. And our AA simply upgrade the damage on our already useless CAs. 10% to stream! [Removed for Content], get rid of that. 15% to immobilizing lunge, 10% to storm, linger duration on cheap shot, more snare on snaring shot. Compared to the assassin AAs, they are teh suk.
Thank god I quit this game so I don't need to go through this b.s again.

Someone leaked already obsolete information from beta where things are constantly being changed and tweaked.

The info on that site is already wrong.

Unless you're in beta and actively testing and helping get these things tweaked, I strongly suggest ignoring the leaks.

11-25-2009, 09:52 AM	#3
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	Sydares wrote: The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers. DPS The wisdom line is really pretty crappy for assassins too except for soloing.

11-27-2009, 10:13 AM	#4
Sydares Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 700	Trisscuit@Lucan DLere wrote: Sydares wrote: The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers. DPS The wisdom line is really pretty crappy for assassins too except for soloing. I'd heard rumblings that the occasional assassin took it - I wouldn't touch it, myself, but I tried not to make sweeping generalizations where they didn't exist.

11-28-2009, 09:43 AM	#5
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	May be boring to not have that variation but in reality for any class to take full advantage of an aspect of their class there is only one spec. For a sk or pally they only have one spec that best utilizes tanking ability except for maybe minor adjustments for skills caps. But they can use a different spec for more DPS, just the same rangers COULD use a different spec for for more defense, it just wouldn't be worth using it in anything outside soloing. In terms of 'specs' and this goes for all MMO's that use this kind of system, if you are min/maxing there is only one overall spec unless they somehow managed to get perfect balance between skills which I have yet to see. Other specs may perform better in various uncommon situations, but there is usually a spec that works best in more situations than others. For rangers and predator tree its just more clear. I suppose you could argue that the difference in quality of specs is much greater than other classes, but that doesn't really matter. For example say they changed the wisdom line to the point where is was just a little worse than strength line, would you switch? Or would you keep using the still better strength line? Even if they made it perfectly equal it would just be redundant, instead of people saying 'oh definitely get strength' they would just say 'get strength or wisdom, doesn't matter which one' In the end for this type of stuff, there will always be a min/max spec, and the rest of the stuff is just for personal preference or fluff for people who don't care much for min/max'ing. If you think only having one spec as the best and a bunch of fluff is boring, imagine having dozens of skills that have the same amount of desirability to the point where it doesn't matter what you pick. Would be like a person trying to play with skill and another smashing the keyboard and getting the same results. __________________

11-28-2009, 03:47 PM	#6
Sydares Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 700	Neiloch wrote: May be boring to not have that variation but in reality for any class to take full advantage of an aspect of their class there is only one spec. For a sk or pally they only have one spec that best utilizes tanking ability except for maybe minor adjustments for skills caps. But they can use a different spec for more DPS, just the same rangers COULD use a different spec for for more defense, it just wouldn't be worth using it in anything outside soloing. In terms of 'specs' and this goes for all MMO's that use this kind of system, if you are min/maxing there is only one overall spec unless they somehow managed to get perfect balance between skills which I have yet to see. Other specs may perform better in various uncommon situations, but there is usually a spec that works best in more situations than others. For rangers and predator tree its just more clear. I suppose you could argue that the difference in quality of specs is much greater than other classes, but that doesn't really matter. For example say they changed the wisdom line to the point where is was just a little worse than strength line, would you switch? Or would you keep using the still better strength line? Even if they made it perfectly equal it would just be redundant, instead of people saying 'oh definitely get strength' they would just say 'get strength or wisdom, doesn't matter which one' In the end for this type of stuff, there will always be a min/max spec, and the rest of the stuff is just for personal preference or fluff for people who don't care much for min/max'ing. If you think only having one spec as the best and a bunch of fluff is boring, imagine having dozens of skills that have the same amount of desirability to the point where it doesn't matter what you pick. Would be like a person trying to play with skill and another smashing the keyboard and getting the same results. While I understand what you're trying to say here, I fundamentally disagree. I know that there will always be a min/max spec, but as it stands, there are few options that are even viable to consider. I have never felt regret at being unable to go down a line that I did not go down, nor did I feel as though I offered anything unique over another ranger who had specced slightly differently. The purpose of AAs shold not simply be to [Removed for Content] out your currently existing role. In an ideal situation, AAs should open up new oppurtunities and playstyles that were previously unavailable. I'm not at issue with the fact that our existing AAs are too good or too bad, simply that there really aren't options because the ones that no is really taking are so pathetically awful that no one would ever consider them. It's not a simple matter of it being a tradeoff or a difference in function, they are literally so awful that you would generally have to have no understanding of the game to take them. Wisdom is pathetic. Intelligence has become (now that spellcrit is dead) a boring last resort because other lines happen to be worse than it to take. Because if there's no real choice or impact to AAs, they're not really AAs. They're just skill-ups, and that's hideously boring.

11-28-2009, 04:04 PM	#7
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	I see what your saying, but again what you want just isn't that common, all across MMO's. Closest thing i can think of on EQ2 is healers able to spec for more defense and DPS, but like I said this usually [Removed for Content] their healing pretty hardcore and doesn't make them a viable tank or DPS class, just nice for soloing. If the AA's could be so that they can basically change your archetype there would be no need for classes, as well as causing confusion for both the player and people they play with. Rangers and Assassins are DPS classes, if they got AA's that were so dramatic that they could buff as well as bard or tank as well as fighter, well they wouldn't be a ranger or assassin anymore. Just brings me back to my question though, if they made some line we didn't use better, but still not as good as the ones we use thus closing the gap in quality significantly, would you even switch? __________________

11-21-2009, 07:19 AM	#1
Sydares Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 700	Predator AA tree:While you're revamping AAs, please take a SERIOUS look at Stamina and Wisdom lines.The stamina line is great for assassins, but because of the puzzling lack of ranged autoattack support on Surrounding Attacks, it's entirely useless for the only other class that shares this AA tree. The wisdom line - does anyone actually spec into this? Again, if they do, they're not rangers.As a ranger, there's no "Ifs" "ands" or "buts" about it, you only have One (1) viable spec for the predator tree [Strength: 4/6/4/8/1 Agi: 4/8/4/8/1 Int: 4/4/4/8/0 or minor variations therein according to flavor] , and that's boring as sin. What can you do? 1) Unlink the Predator tree. Assassins and Rangers are simply too different to share any of the same AAs.2) Make it so the desirable effects WORK FOR BOTH CLASSES, and that there are desirable variations for varying playstyles for both classes. Currently, it's a complete mess that favors assassins to a ridiculous degree, but even they have limited options because so much of this tree is useless fluff.

11-24-2009, 11:55 PM	#2
Walford Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 134	seems reasonable to me. emphasis on the word 'SERIOUS' look.

11-28-2009, 11:21 PM	#8
Baynne Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 253	My issue with AAs is that almost every class has a "cookie-cutter" spec, meaning there is no point in specing any other way. For example, before they changed the warrior AAs, you pretty much had to spec stamina for double attack and use a goofy looking buckler in order to do decent damage. what sux about that is SoE finally changed it, and now you still have to spec sta for DA, but for 1/3 the amount you got before with a dinner plate on your arm. another good example of cookie-cutter specs you cant avoid is a sorceror. you pretty much HAVE to spec agi/wis for the end abilities and str for spell crit. taking sta is an option for solo but once you hit RoK content it doesn't help all that much, and i dont think anyone has ever taken the int line for a couple intertwining reasons. If you spec int, you lose a ton of DPS, which means you arent generating aggro anyway, so you dont even need the abilities in the int line to drop aggro. as for the predator lines... wow lol. i just logged my ranger on to check it out. i spec'd agi first for casting speed... looking at the end ability in str, i do not need it yet as i have no abilities with a 2 minute reuse (only lvl 31 atm). in the stamina line... i personally dont melee unless i really have to... and usually only when soloing and the mob gets to me or in a group and i run out of ranged CAs. in wis the only ability even worth looking at is Obfuscation for the extra damage on the next stealth attack... unfortunately you have to grind through 12 points in 3 other useless AAs to get there. rangers already have several ways to reduce the hate generated... it is my opinion that all AAs should be geared toward the class' existing role. I think it would be cool for maybe one of the lines to add a buff that gives our ranged attacks added elemental damage or another that buffs our ranged attack damage or speed. There are plenty of ways to give us plenty of choices that are all viable and useful. I'm not even sure i made any sense, so my apologies if i did not lol.

11-28-2009, 11:31 PM	#9
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	Thats the problem, when making AA type skills they can only go one of two ways. 1. Make skills with varying use which will result in cookie cutter, min/max specs 2. Make all skills equal or close to it resulting in no forethought or knowledge needed in creating a useful spec and it would be more fluff than anything else. Though I have to agree AA skills should be strongly geared towards a classes existing role if not further separating them from other classes. Adding skills that go against their primary function only serves to provide an opportunity for people to [Removed for Content] their character. Though maybe thats the min/max'er in me talking hehe. __________________

11-28-2009, 11:59 PM	#10
Sydares Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 700	Well, it strikes me as puzzling that there exists such a possibility to invest in these extremely awful decisions that - until you get a chance to thoroughly test or someone whaps you upside the head for it - you have no logical way of figuring out. Most rangers by now know that the stamina line won't let you have a chance to hit other targets with your arrows. I'm assuming a technical limitation there that they haven't been bothered to work around, but I digress. It's especially prevalent in the shared AA trees - my poor SK needed to be laughed at before I found out that the heal crit AA is useless for them due to the fact that the game treats 'tap' abilities based on the damage crits. I'd always known this was the case for rangers, but it slipped my mind on speccing my baby SK. Anyhow, you're absolutely right. I'm being idealistic, perhaps, but I feel this is the time to bring up the red-headed stepchild AA trees, and I hope to get into the beta for SF so I can further rant my head off about them before anything goes live.

11-30-2009, 03:11 PM	#11
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	They did better with shared AA skills in the TSO table, mainly because they were more generalized and applied to fundamental aspects of classes such as stances or just flatout increased a specific stat. Unfortunately this can work better for other classes much more than assassin/ranger. Assassins are closer to rogues than ranger yet we still share AA skills. For TSO I was in beta and helped push hard with fellow rangers for changes that actually made it through, before that Explosive Arrow wasn't an AE and the Hidden Embers improvement AA in TSO was a improvement for Immobilizing Lunge (root attack), and Arrow Reclamation was a skil lto summon [Removed for Content] poor arrows, and think focus Aim got changed from beta to live as well. So hopefully some smart rangers can get into beta and help with the new AA's as well. unfortunately if they are shared we may find ourselves in a tug-of-war with assassins. __________________

11-30-2009, 07:56 PM	#12
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	Neiloch wrote: So hopefully some smart rangers can get into beta and help with the new AA's as well. unfortunately if they are shared we may find ourselves in a tug-of-war with assassins. I'm an assassin and don't think that we need any changes for our predator AA trees since we already have more than 1 viable option. STA line for better AoE dps and INT line for better ST DPS.

11-30-2009, 08:03 PM	#13
glowsintheda General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 448	which is exactly the problem, we don't even have the option of the sta line for better AE DPS because it doesn't affect our autoattack. They make all this stuff that works for assassins and not for rangers, and then give it to us as an option when they know we won't use it. They seriously need to make it so that flurry and ae attack both work on ranged autoattack. otherwise we will continue to be presented with shared AA lines that offer us things we can not use.

11-30-2009, 08:13 PM	#14
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	glowsinthedark wrote: which is exactly the problem, we don't even have the option of the sta line for better AE DPS because it doesn't affect our autoattack. They make all this stuff that works for assassins and not for rangers, and then give it to us as an option when they know we won't use it. They seriously need to make it so that flurry and ae attack both work on ranged autoattack. otherwise we will continue to be presented with shared AA lines that offer us things we can not use. That might be hard for them to do, and would be fairly overpowered as well. They should take one of the useless lines like WIS and make it into a ranger only line for increasing AoE DPS through other means.

11-30-2009, 08:23 PM	#15
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	Never saw why they couldn't apply some modifier to the AE thing so it evens out with bow attacks. Obviously if it worked just like melee but with our bow it would be OP'd but they can lower the frequency when using a bow or lower the damage of the AE portion of the attacks so its simply not the full amount of auto attack damage. Also make it AE outward from your main target like Natural Selection does instead of from the character. In general rangers need a fast recast/frequent AE attack if they are going to keep putting in this amount of AE fights in the future. __________________

12-01-2009, 12:12 AM	#16
glowsintheda General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 448	I realize that it is hard, if not impossible for them to justify giving it to rangers, but the main point of my post was that there we have an assassin saying all is well with predator tree, there are plenty of options, when there really aren't any for rangers. I can see the same thing going forward with the new expansion where they add a line for flurry or more AE attack and the assassins will be pulling for it big time and we will wind up with nothing worthwhile and be told to suck it up like we have so far. I've recall seeing something somewhere to the effect that we should just suck it up, that we have the option to use the AE autoattack, just have to use melee auto attack, we just choose not to.

12-01-2009, 12:22 AM	#17
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	Yeah i remember someone saying jsut get the AE auto attack than melee lmfao. Then again with them merging crit and double attack if they do add stuff like those we won't get left out. Be nice if they made a bow AE and merged it with a modifier of like .25 so for every 4% of melee ae bow gets 1% __________________

12-01-2009, 10:31 AM	#18
Sydares Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 700	Lethe5683 wrote: That might be hard for them to do, and would be fairly overpowered as well. They should take one of the useless lines like WIS and make it into a ranger only line for increasing AoE DPS through other means. See, I think that's a fair compromise. Turning one of the underutilized trees into something like that.

12-03-2009, 05:58 PM	#19
-=Hoss=- Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 402	I'm pretty sure that originally the agi line was supposed to be for rangers. The devs just didn't realize that casting speed was pwnsauce for everyone. In fact, almost no one seemed to realize it until like RoK came out.

12-03-2009, 06:34 PM	#20
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	Bottom line is almost nothing got put in for rangers if other scouts/assassins didnt also benefit from it, but only until recently has there been stuff tailored for rangers. In a way it makes sense because if something is made for rangers only 1/24 of the classes benefit and I seriously doubt rangers make up 1/24 of the 'main character' population. Just another argument for the crit merges, hopefully it will apply to old AA skills as well. __________________

12-30-2009, 12:28 PM	#21
Kenstin1983 Scholar Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 49	What exactly does Perfectionist do for Rangers? It says any combart art with a re-use timer of 2 minutes or more gets that timer reduced by 50% and increases the damage. Do rangers have a lot of combat arts with a 2 minute or longer respawn timer?

12-30-2009, 01:39 PM	#22
Neiloch Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,430	From what i can remember it helps Sniper shot and storm of arrows, both of which are very nice parsing CA's for rangers (especially storm of arrows imo). It should also apply to arrow barrage but I think there is still a bug where it's not working properly right now. __________________

12-30-2009, 02:04 PM	#23
Kenstin1983 Scholar Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 49	Wow that's huge. With Perfectionist sniper shot goes from a 15 minute cooldown to 7.5 minutes, and gets its damage increased by 15%. That's 2 points well spent. Thanks for the help. I'm still fairly new to Eq2 Just started my ranger 3 weeks ago.

01-05-2010, 06:21 PM	#24
Kvik Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18	Would be great if it did indeed half the reuse time, but it doesnt, My Storm is down to 2 min and Sniper down to 10 with perfectionist. Got to love Sony math....

01-06-2010, 09:45 AM	#25
Noob1974 Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 240	The problem with the KOS Tree is that with STR,AGI ( Endline Ability),STA and INT there were 4 suitable line for assasins whiel they were only AGI, INT (till poison proc nerf) and partly STR for Melee Crit bonus because our best CA DPS wise, zonewides, is our Melee Dot. Secondary Assasins are no longer predators officially but still share the predator tree. They are rogues and should therefore use the rogue tree, which brings the problem can you have a KOS Tree for only class......

01-06-2010, 11:51 AM	#26
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	Noob1974 wrote: The problem with the KOS Tree is that with STR,AGI ( Endline Ability),STA and INT there were 4 suitable line for assasins whiel they were only AGI, INT (till poison proc nerf) and partly STR for Melee Crit bonus because our best CA DPS wise, zonewides, is our Melee Dot. Secondary Assasins are no longer predators officially but still share the predator tree. They are rogues and should therefore use the rogue tree, which brings the problem can you have a KOS Tree for only class...... Get ready to be disappointed. Someone leaked the new AA over on that other board. Rangers get screwed big time again. They gave an endline ability in the KoS tree that basically only benefits assassins. And our AA simply upgrade the damage on our already useless CAs. 10% to stream! [Removed for Content], get rid of that. 15% to immobilizing lunge, 10% to storm, linger duration on cheap shot, more snare on snaring shot. Compared to the assassin AAs, they are teh suk. Thank god I quit this game so I don't need to go through this b.s again. __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

01-06-2010, 02:14 PM	#27
Hexus Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 66	If any of you developers read these forums, send me a PM or tell in game. Obviously no one who designs these abilities or AA's has ever played a ranger or has any idea of how the class works. I can only hope that the AA tree in SF gets changed from what's currently listed on those "other" forums, because what you've given me is a ticket to betray and finish the other mythical quest line. 10% damage increase to Stream of Arrows? Are you kidding me? You could give that spell a 50% increase to damage and it STILL WOULD NOT BE WORTH USING. Remove the stun/stifle and make it AE, give it 25-35% increase, and maybe then we'll talk about putting it back on a hot bar. I can't believe that there's anyone that even remotely understands how rangers work who designs this game, the primary problem being that they are the ONLY ranged scout class. I would almost prefer them be removed from the game than relegated to this, and I've been playing a ranger non-stop since Beta EQ 1. Hexus

01-06-2010, 03:11 PM	#28
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	Hexus wrote: If any of you developers read these forums, send me a PM or tell in game. Obviously no one who designs these abilities or AA's has ever played a ranger or has any idea of how the class works. I can only hope that the AA tree in SF gets changed from what's currently listed on those "other" forums, because what you've given me is a ticket to betray and finish the other mythical quest line. 10% damage increase to Stream of Arrows? Are you kidding me? You could give that spell a 50% increase to damage and it STILL WOULD NOT BE WORTH USING. Remove the stun/stifle and make it AE, give it 25-35% increase, and maybe then we'll talk about putting it back on a hot bar. I can't believe that there's anyone that even remotely understands how rangers work who designs this game, the primary problem being that they are the ONLY ranged scout class. I would almost prefer them be removed from the game than relegated to this, and I've been playing a ranger non-stop since Beta EQ 1. Hexus the endline abiltiy in the predator tree allows the predator to bypass stealth requirements for their CAs. So all those hard hitting stealthed CAs rangers have.....wait we don't have any, those are all assassin CAs. yipee! Yay we also get an AA that increases our base auto-attack modifer - for melee attacks only!!! Yay again! Let's see they also improved our hawk dive to siphon more hate!! Yay again! We do however get anothe AOE CA which is nice. Pretty low damage but at least it is something new. __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

01-06-2010, 05:23 PM	#29
-=Hoss=- Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 402	Nevermind Grats on your incoming ban.

01-06-2010, 05:32 PM	#30
Kiara Community Relations Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4,359	Ranja wrote: Get ready to be disappointed. Someone leaked the new AA over on that other board. Rangers get screwed big time again. They gave an endline ability in the KoS tree that basically only benefits assassins. And our AA simply upgrade the damage on our already useless CAs. 10% to stream! [Removed for Content], get rid of that. 15% to immobilizing lunge, 10% to storm, linger duration on cheap shot, more snare on snaring shot. Compared to the assassin AAs, they are teh suk. Thank god I quit this game so I don't need to go through this b.s again. Someone leaked already obsolete information from beta where things are constantly being changed and tweaked. The info on that site is already wrong. Unless you're in beta and actively testing and helping get these things tweaked, I strongly suggest ignoring the leaks.