Another Thread. (Moki, as requested)

YasikoSetsu · 11-03-2009, 08:37 PM

MokiChan wrote:

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Coercer: Charm
Current: As a Coercer, charming isn't really worth the trouble in PvP. The spell takes 4.6 seconds to cast with 8 points in the spell haste AA and is 35% harder to resist at Master on the initial cast, and 32% harder per tick. To compare, the Troubador charm is 11% harder to resist on the initial cast and 9% harder per tick, takes no concentration, and it casts in ~2 seconds. The Troubador charm does have a duration of 16 seconds to the Coercer's 22 seconds, but the Coercer charm usually drops within 5 seconds of landing, if it lands at all, whereas the Troubador charm quite often sticks for almost the full duration.
Change in PvP: First and foremost it should land much more reliably in PvP and be far less likely to drop before the duration runs out. Reducing the cast time significantly would also be nice. It's hard to suggest improvements for our charm spell without suggesting that the Troubador charm be nerfed, because I really don't want to call for nerfs on anyone elses class. But it does bother me that Troubadors are starting to usurp the crowd control role from Enchanters in PvP, especially since crowd control (and Charm in particular) are the Coercer's raison d'etre, so to speak. So, in general terms, I'd like to see the Coercer's charm spell improved somehow to make it more useful/desireable than the Troubador equivalent, without taking anything away from the Troubador class. Charm is our signature spell, after all.
*** Addendum: The main gripe from a lot of players about Charm is that it ends combat if you use it in a 1v1 fight. I completely agree with those players that say Charm should not end a PvP encounter if it is used in a 1v1 fight, because that allows the player that did the Charming to zone away or evac (whether this is the scout evac, a godspell or a tinkered evac doesn't matter). Charm should not end PvP encounters.
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I agree with most of your post, but let's not get dramatic, here.

--Coercer-- (Using the durations from my coercer, some of your may differ.)

1. Shock wave -4 second AoE stun.

2. Silence - 8 second stifle.

3. Pure Awe - 13.5 second ENCOUNTER mez.

4. Mesmerize - 22.5 second mez (ON A 4.7 SECOND RECAST! The troub mez is on a 14 second recast!)

5. Medusa Gaze -4.3 second stun

6. Ego Shock -9 second ENCOUNTER daze.

7. Amnesia - 5 second Stun/Detarget

8. Stupefy - 4.3 second ENCOUNTER stun.

----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too.

9. Hypnosis - 16 second charm (On a 2.10 second cast, and has a much faster recast as the troub charm at 23 seconds! An as good, if not superior skill. Mine actually reads 37% harder to resist / 34% per tick, on my coercer. Better than my troubs by far.)

--Troubador-- (Again, durations from my troub.)

1. 8 second stifle (both bow shots HAVE to land for the stifle to take effect. Not so common on tanks/scouts.)

2. 29.8 second mez (on a 14 second recast. 3x as long as the coercer version. 41% harder to resist at master 1 with 5 aa.)

3. 20 second charm (Agan, 41 second recast. With 5 aa - 23% harder to land, 17% harder per tick. Thats the master 1. The coercer aa charm owns that, hard. Same cast time as the coercer aa charm.)

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I mean... were you even thinking when you posted that?

Posting issues with coercer spells is fine, but dont let your emotions destroy a well thought out post. Cause that was laughable.

I'll also throw in this - Coercers get better debuffs, and far superior DPS to troubs in a group PvP setting. Dont believe me? Go read through troubs debuffs. You even have an arguably superior version of Perfection of the maestro. What do you have against us, honestly? xD

Continue. xD

MokiCh · 11-04-2009, 04:52 PM

The comment you highlighted was meant to mainly refer to the charm and mez spells. Perhaps I could have worded that better. But it is a fact that if I get mezzed or charmed in PvP these days, the chances are very, very high that it's a Troubador doing it. Maybe there are just way more Troubadors than there are Enchanters, or maybe all the Enchanters are just nubs, I don't know. But I do feel, perhaps irrationally so, that as an Enchanter, I should get a better mez and better charm than anyone else. The Troubador's mez is already better than mine (with the AAs), and their charm is at least equivalent. You could argue about if your longer recast and higher chance of getting resisted is a bigger drawback than my huge casting time and need to have three free concentration slots, but there's no denying that the vast majority of people that use charm in PvP (that I've seen) are Troubadors, and there's a reason for that.

Perhaps part of the reason I feel rather strongly about the Charm issue is that, as a Coercer, Charm is supposed to be a class defining ability for me. When I rolled a Coercer way back in KOS, I rolled it because I enjoy playing utility classes and I thought getting mobs and other players to fight for me sounded really fun. But, as I found out, not only is my charm spell of questionable usefulness in PvE, in PvP it's almost a waste of time to cast it because it's just going to drop right after it lands. So charm has always been a bit of a sore spot with me, because that was one of the big things that attracted me to the class in the first place. It's like someone rolling a Necro only to find that nine times out of ten they're better off not using their pets at all. I could spec into WIS for the charm endline, and I used to have a WIS spec back in KOS for the extra resists and subjugation, but in T8 I've found that neither really help as much anymore and I get a lot more bang for my buck in STR or INT. As for the charm endline, call me proud but I refuse to spend 24 AA points for something that I should already get for free because I'm a Coercer.

And about your point that I do much more DPS, I completely agree. I think Enchanters in general do far too much DPS at the moment, and if I had my way I'd go back to the reactive damage that we used to have before GU44. I loved the way a Coercer PvP'd back then, my only gripe about it was that since I relied on reactive damage, I'd have liked a bit more defence. But, as always, PvE wins over PvP, so we got 'fixed'. Instead of coming up with interesting encounters, Sony decided to make every named mob that wasn't completely trivial immune to CC and gave Enchanters a bunch of DPS so we wouldn't get bored and quit. But I don't want to be DPS, I want to be crowd control. If you want my DPS you can have it, if I get to be a real CC class again instead of mad OP DPS/mana battery. If I want to be DPS I'll go play my Ranger.

Like I said in the other thread, I don't want Troubadors nerfed because I think a lot of people like the fact that they can do some CC in a pinch, and it's come in useful in PvP and PvP when I wasn't playing my Coercer. But I also think that Enchanters should hands down be the best at crowd control, and in PvP crowd control increasingly revolves around mez and charm, because with immunities and cure pots the other effects often don't do much of anything.

Balrok · 11-04-2009, 07:38 PM

Pocket buddy.... no way I see a troub being a better cc then an enchanter.. I don't even think it's close. Troubs are desired for one thing imho... PvP charm. Coercers and Illy are far superior in every cc way possible besides charm. All great group fights end because a charm landed, so I see why you want it.... especially since it was a class defining ability back then. But it's just a fluff spell for coercers now, since they have so much dps and cc without it. And if an enchanter wanted it, they could get "kind of" a similar version of it for PvP in the WIS line. Immunities are immunities, but I know doing group vs group fights while exile... All I have to do is cycle my AOE DPS and I lock down groups (stifle/stuns). If I want to take a player out of the mix, phase, mez.. bye. Cyling thru group tragets looking for immunities to be down and drop the our single target stifles/stuns between aoes are crazy.. cause the recast is so fast....... aoe mez... crap is endless. If a coercer got a troub version of charm in pvp I think I would vomitt it would be too OP. If anything, the class needs to be toned down all together. atm, charm is a class defining ability for troubs and a fluff spell for coercers.

And yes... I miss my 'old coercer' too.

MokiCh · 11-04-2009, 07:56 PM

I didn't say they were better, I said they were starting to encroach on that territory, which I think is true. Like you said, one troub charm is enough to end a lot of really good fights, which is something I could never do without charming. Unfortunately I haven't been exiled in T8 so I can't really get any immediate feedback in that department, and the complete lack of any group pvp outside of TG (where a million noobs are just waiting to jump in and leech your fights) doesn't help either.

As for the Troub charm, I don't really want it, but I'd like mine to be more than fluff. I don't really have an easy answer as to how to do that without making it ridiculously OP, but since we were supposed to give feedback on specific spells in that other thread I thought I'd mention it. As it is I don't even have the T8 version on my hotbar for pvp, and in PvE I use a T5 master charm.

I think my real worry here is that Sony is starting to phase crowd control out of the game (especially in PvE), and turning it into a spam dps clicky fest.

EDIT: and i'll reword that original post about charm so it doesn't sound as whiny. I wrote it late at night when I was tired and grumpy, so there's my excuse.

Balrok · 11-04-2009, 08:06 PM

MokiChan wrote:

I think my real worry here is that Sony is starting to phase crowd control out of the game (especially in PvE), and turning it into a spam dps clicky fest.

imho.. the problem is they gave us too much. So when they design a mob or encounter, they have to decide if they want the mob to be cc'ed or immune. Cause honestly.. find me a mob that can be CC'ed and I'll lock it down and kill it without being touched. Most other mmo's I play... you don't get all these variations of cc spells. Heck, I'd even be open to adding immunity timers to PvE like you see in PvP.... why not... cause they can't take away spells.. or can they?!

I feel sorry for mouse clickers in this game... especially enchanters. My poor keyboard gets hammered on... .couldn't imagine doing all that mouse clicking.

MokiCh · 11-04-2009, 08:28 PM

I'm a mouse clicker SMILEY

They do have PvP style CC immunities on epic mobs, provided they aren't outright immune to being CCed. But as an example of a fun CC fight, Gnorbl the Playful was a fight I really enjoyed doing with Pocket because of all the adds that needed mezzing. Nexona is kind of like that because of those adds that need to be mezzed, but beyond that I haven't run across a real CC fight in T8. It is harder to design an encounter that allows us to use our full range of CC abilities without making it so ridiculous that you could solo it, but it's not impossible. Maybe a set of two mobs like Khalan Dar/Phara Dar, where they alternate being immune to mez, so you have to keep one mezzed and burn the other? Maybe a mob that alternates being vulnerable to one type of CC, so you have to stun/stifle/daze at the right times?

Paikis · 11-04-2009, 09:24 PM

And what happens in those kinds of encounters when you don't have an enchanter? They can't be killed. Either they make the fights easy enough that you can do it without an enchanter, in which case you wont be mezzing, you'll just be DPSing.... or they make the fights hard enough that you have to mezz, in which case they can't be killed without an enchanter (or a troub I guess).

In EQ1 the 'holy trinity' was tank, heals, chanter. In EQ2, you can do things without an enchanter. Unfortunately the glory days of enchanters are over, which is a shame, because I loved being the guy who was keeping 12 mobs busy while my group dealt with them one at a time. Enchanters were the dam that held back groups deaths alot of the time.

Enough Nostalgia, back on topic.

If you want the best charm in the game, spend the 24 AA points and get it. From my experience with it (80 Illy/80 coercer as well as 80 troub) the WIS line charm very rarely resists, almost always runs full duration and gives you full player-controls... which is something that no other pvp-enabled charm in the game has. You have access to the best charm (by far) in the game, I don't see any reason to be nerfing Troubador charm just because you don't want to spend 24 AAs. I have to spend alot more than just that to get run speed on my bard.

YasikoSetsu · 11-05-2009, 01:43 AM

Paikis wrote:

And what happens in those kinds of encounters when you don't have an enchanter? They can't be killed. Either they make the fights easy enough that you can do it without an enchanter, in which case you wont be mezzing, you'll just be DPSing.... or they make the fights hard enough that you have to mezz, in which case they can't be killed without an enchanter (or a troub I guess).
In EQ1 the 'holy trinity' was tank, heals, chanter. In EQ2, you can do things without an enchanter. Unfortunately the glory days of enchanters are over, which is a shame, because I loved being the guy who was keeping 12 mobs busy while my group dealt with them one at a time. Enchanters were the dam that held back groups deaths alot of the time.
Enough Nostalgia, back on topic.
If you want the best charm in the game, spend the 24 AA points and get it. From my experience with it (80 Illy/80 coercer as well as 80 troub) the WIS line charm very rarely resists, almost always runs full duration and gives you full player-controls... which is something that no other pvp-enabled charm in the game has. You have access to the best charm (by far) in the game, I don't see any reason to be nerfing Troubador charm just because you don't want to spend 24 AAs. I have to spend alot more than just that to get run speed on my bard.

Aww, all the good discussion went on while I was offline, of course... ._.

But yeah, pretty much everything I'd imagine adding has been said. The 'troub equivalent charm' so to speak is only 24 aa away, and as you said - enchanters have too much DPS in pvp. Simply drop a bit of that dps (in the form of the savant line) for your charm you want. Or hell, I've got a few friends that dropped chronomancy for the wis line, as they tend to be unable to sit sitll in PvP anyway (Kiting, knockbacks, stuns, interrupts, etc.)

The troub mez is 'arguably' better, if you're ONLY looking at it from a one shot aspect. It will land more often, yes. It will last a few seconds longer, yes. However, in group pvp, the coercer's mez is FAR superior, due to the extremely short recast. The point is to be able to cycle is through the non immune members as fast as possible, giving the enemy group as little room for action as possible.

I'm not really gonna bother going in to the PvE aspect of coercer, as quite frankly, I don't really care - the only fun I have with this game any more is whats left of the PvP - if you even want to call it that. (I play on nagafen.)

Going back to your first post to note a good point, though - being able to use possess essence on a player would be a good way to make your charm alternative useful in pvp. The essence would obviously be a much weaker version, but still very worth casting.

PS: I'm a dirty clicker, lawl. All preference - people can argue it all they want, no one way is more effective. xD

Faenril · 11-05-2009, 06:18 AM

Exur@Nagafen wrote:

MokiChan wrote:
I think my real worry here is that Sony is starting to phase crowd control out of the game (especially in PvE), and turning it into a spam dps clicky fest.
imho.. the problem is they gave us too much. So when they design a mob or encounter, they have to decide if they want the mob to be cc'ed or immune. Cause honestly.. find me a mob that can be CC'ed and I'll lock it down and kill it without being touched. Most other mmo's I play... you don't get all these variations of cc spells. Heck, I'd even be open to adding immunity timers to PvE like you see in PvP.... why not... cause they can't take away spells.. or can they?!
I feel sorry for mouse clickers in this game... especially enchanters. My poor keyboard gets hammered on... .couldn't imagine doing all that mouse clicking.

The way I see it there are two thing they can do to make CC a little less ridiculously OP in pve. Either put some immunity timers, which would make things more complicated, while probably still not stopping the best chanters (as they would just cycle through different kind of CCs to workaround the immunity timers), or increase the recast timers on the CC abilities by crazy amounts, so that you can't keep a mob locked forever by your own, but that would be a problem as some CC spells are used in the dps spell rotation (like daze and stiffle for the illy).

Anyway immunity timers would surely be a better solution than current mobs that are just plain immune to everything...

The CC aspect was what attracted me to the class in the first place, but after seeing how easy it is to lockdown mobs in pve I don't even see the point anymore. 1st time I saw the recast timer on my mezz I was like "[Removed for Content]". Just look at Nexona for instance you have what ? 5 dragons, coming one by one so as an illy one of my single target mezzes is up everytime a drake spawns ... Any illy worth a salt should be able to rotate his mezz and keep all locked down. If a tab targetting noob hits one drake there is still the instant cast mezz or the group mezz... Maybe it's a bit more tricky for a coercer but if one chanter can't manage it just put 2 on this job and gratz you win. Same with the goblin fight in RE, you open with group mezz then spread single target mezzes on whatever mob is running wild and that's it.

It's cool to feel desired by the group/raid mates of course, but I don't see those scripts as particularly challenging or exciting, despite them being obviously designed "for my class". So I'm not really eager to see more of such encounters in the next xpac, especially if the price is nerfed dps, but maybe it's just me hehe. I guess it's like those tanks who didn't want to be only tauntbots in the fighter revamp context

Sorry this has little to do with pvp.

MokiCh · 11-05-2009, 07:15 AM

Paikis wrote:

And what happens in those kinds of encounters when you don't have an enchanter? They can't be killed. Either they make the fights easy enough that you can do it without an enchanter, in which case you wont be mezzing, you'll just be DPSing.... or they make the fights hard enough that you have to mezz, in which case they can't be killed without an enchanter (or a troub I guess).
In EQ1 the 'holy trinity' was tank, heals, chanter. In EQ2, you can do things without an enchanter. Unfortunately the glory days of enchanters are over, which is a shame, because I loved being the guy who was keeping 12 mobs busy while my group dealt with them one at a time. Enchanters were the dam that held back groups deaths alot of the time.

This is a valid point, but any raid worth mentioning will have at least a Coercer and an Illusionist, and probably they'll have 3-4 Enchanters to put one in each group for power regen. Enchanters are still very much a needed class in raids, but in my opinion they're needed for the wrong reasons (mad DPS while pumping power).

And, as an aside, I was trying hard to emphasise that I wasn't asking for a Troub nerf. We have Darkor for that, and I don't think he needs any help in that department.

Naemesis@Nagafen wrote:

It's cool to feel desired by the group/raid mates of course, but I don't see those scripts as particularly challenging or exciting, despite them being obviously designed "for my class". So I'm not really eager to see more of such encounters in the next xpac, especially if the price is nerfed dps, but maybe it's just me hehe. I guess it's like those tanks who didn't want to be only tauntbots in the fighter revamp context
Sorry this has little to do with pvp.

Well it has to do with PvP in the sense that PvE always has direct and far-reaching impact on PvP (see Coercer and Shadowknight revamp). In PvE, the mobs that you would want to CC you couldn't, and the ones that you could you didn't need to, so Enchanters were complaining they were bored of being buff bots that hit mana flow every time it was up. So, instead of coming up with encounters that you had to use some CC, Sony took the easy way out and just gave Enchanters a bunch of DPS so they wouldn't be bored. But in PvP we can still use our CC, and now we have sick dps on top of it. So I think talking about PvE in this forum is legitimate to an extent, because it does have a lot of effect on PvP sometimes.

Faenril · 11-05-2009, 07:34 AM

Well if the plan didn't change in next xpac enchanters buffs will be raidwide, and they will be able to cast their single target buffs on one member per group in the raid. That means that while raids won't really need more than 1 coercer and 1 illusionnist (though more might still prove better), no serious raiding will be possible without 1 of each enchanter in the raid (as loosing 4 CH or 4 TC + IA would be huge I guess). So I guess designing encounters for at least 2 chanters in the raid is a safe assumption. As far as group content is concerned I don't believe it's a good idea to make chanters required for that. We already bring more than enough to the group as is, without having encounters tailored for us.

Peak · 11-05-2009, 10:49 AM

What coercer uses WIS line? I mean seriously.

Lol at that.

YasikoSetsuna wrote:

----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too.

Balrok · 11-05-2009, 11:18 AM

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

What coercer uses WIS line? I mean seriously.
Lol at that.
YasikoSetsuna wrote:
----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too.

lol... I was going to say the same thing yesterday.. .but I decided to just let it go.

YasikoSetsu · 11-05-2009, 11:29 AM

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

What coercer uses WIS line? I mean seriously.
Lol at that.
YasikoSetsuna wrote:
----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too.

In PvP? I know quite a few, all very good at their class. It's obviously a useless line for PvE, but thats what mirrors are for. I maily pvp on my troub now days, so I dont bother switching out of my PvE spec any more on my coercer.

Would you seriously take Savant or Chronomancy over the best PvP setting charm in the game, for a group PvP setting? Sure, you could have 15% base damage, or you could completely take their healer/tank/highest DPS out of the picture for 16 seconds. (Charms duration all depends on how crap their healer is at curing, assuming you dont target the healer its self. Most healers are, so it usually lasts pretty long, from personal experience.)

I personally find Chronomancy to be less and less useful in pvp, with all the resists/stuns/knockbacks/interrupts/stifles/you name it flying around in group PvP.

Again, I'm talking about GROUP pvp. Solo pvp will never, ever, ever be balanced with the amount of classes available. I doubt group will be, either, but at the moment, it is more so than solo.

MokiCh · 11-05-2009, 12:53 PM

Those 24 points I'd much much rather spend in STR for Counterblade, and the intermediate abilities in STR are a lot better than the ones leading up to the endline in WIS. All in all I think STR gives you a much bigger bang for your buck as far as sheer points spent goes.

I think maybe it's time for me to finally get over my continual disappointment with Charm. It's been three (almost four?) years since I first started my Coercer, and I've been complaining about Charm ever since. Maybe it's time for me to just accept that Charm is a cheese move in PvP, and with the myth removing the conc requirement on Possess Essence, it's become less and less useful in PvE as well. Hell my Ranger's Stream of Arrows move has been even less useful than Charm and for some reason that doesn't bother me at all.

Peak · 11-05-2009, 06:24 PM

I was talking about group PVP, too.

Again, why would any enchanter ever use the WIS line?

YasikoSetsu · 11-05-2009, 06:41 PM

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

I was talking about group PVP, too.
Again, why would any enchanter ever use the WIS line?

I gave you a legitimate answer to your question, sir. You may not like it, but your personal choice of AA for PvP is not the 'indefinite uncontested perfect allocation.' Move along.

Balrok · 11-05-2009, 06:54 PM

YasikoSetsuna wrote:

Peak@Nagafen wrote:
I was talking about group PVP, too.
Again, why would any enchanter ever use the WIS line?
I gave you a legitimate answer to your question, sir. You may not like it, but your personal choice of AA for PvP is not the 'indefinite uncontested perfect allocation.' Move along.

I'll concede. If you never left home without a group.. then STR line is pretty trivial. Then it's a choice of losing +15 to base damage or spell haste. I'd have a tough time giving both up.. but that my problem. I got flamed at by an old guild officer once... and I quote, "If you wanted to play a DPS class you should of rolled a wiz!" I put him on ignore. Trust me when I say it's not easy to follow directions with a raid leader ignored!

MokiCh · 11-06-2009, 06:22 AM

Exur@Nagafen wrote:

I'll concede. If you never left home without a stacked group.. then STR line is pretty trivial. Then it's a choice of losing +15 to base damage or spell haste. I'd have a tough time giving both up.. but that my problem. I got flamed at by an old guild officer once... and I quote, "If you wanted to play a DPS class you should of rolled a wiz!" I put him on ignore. Trust me when I say it's not easy to follow directions with a raid leader ignored!

If you have a good tank and healer to keep you from getting beat on, then yes. But, at least for me, that's not always the case, especially since I enjoy small group pvp a bit more than six on six fights.

Peak · 11-06-2009, 11:40 AM

Regardless of group setup, I would never use WIS line.

Why waste my time charming someone when I could simply kill the group?

YasikoSetsu · 11-06-2009, 12:00 PM

Peak@Nagafen wrote:

Regardless of group setup, I would never use WIS line.
Why waste my time charming someone when I could simply kill the group?

Not gonna sit here and argue with you about it all day, brah. You're a great chanter, I enjoy your pvp videos. I'm 100% sure you know your class as well as any other chanter. However, chanters are one of the few classes that don't have their AA choice set in stone. There is no BEST choice

Somtimes 15% base damage is better for the situation. Sometimes 15% base damage will do you no good, and having the charm would have been the game breaker. It's all preference.

Balrok · 11-06-2009, 01:15 PM

YasikoSetsuna wrote:

having the charm would have been the game breaker.

I cannot argue this point. It can be quite a lame spell if you ask me. We used to do 6v6 and played pick'm.... if there was 1 troub, he went first cause it ment "we win" button if it's timed right on the right person. I rolled with it for a short duration.. only situation I had fun with was finding 2v1's and charming a templar who thought his/her sanctuary was OP.

MokiCh · 11-14-2009, 12:32 PM

So I was thinking some more about the Charm spell, and my problem of not wanting my class defining spell to be fluff, but also not wanting a stupid OP cheese spell, and I had an idea. I thought of straight putting this in the feedback thread, but I thought I'd run it by you distinguished gentlemen first.

What if Charm got changed to a detrimental that you put on another player that makes all their offensive abilities hit their own group instead of yours for the duration of the spell. They would still be 'fighting for you', but without the stupid complete lack of control you have now. Maybe for scouts and mages it makes all attacks hit their own group instead of yours, for healers any heals heal your group instead of theirs, for tanks any taunts force their group to lock target onto them. Different versions of the spell could have different durations. AA charm/troub could be 5-7 seconds, Coercer 10 seconds. Make the spell level rules the same as in PvE, for an Adept charm, attacks get reflected back at adept level and so forth. You'd have to tweak the concentration requirement and casting time some as well for Coercers.

Would something like this be feasible/useful/fun, or am I just way off with this idea?

YasikoSetsu · 11-14-2009, 08:03 PM

MokiChan wrote:

So I was thinking some more about the Charm spell, and my problem of not wanting my class defining spell to be fluff, but also not wanting a stupid OP cheese spell, and I had an idea. I thought of straight putting this in the feedback thread, but I thought I'd run it by you distinguished gentlemen first.
What if Charm got changed to a detrimental that you put on another player that makes all their offensive abilities hit their own group instead of yours for the duration of the spell. They would still be 'fighting for you', but without the stupid complete lack of control you have now. Maybe for scouts and mages it makes all attacks hit their own group instead of yours, for healers any heals heal your group instead of theirs, for tanks any taunts force their group to lock target onto them. Different versions of the spell could have different durations. AA charm/troub could be 5-7 seconds, Coercer 10 seconds. Make the spell level rules the same as in PvE, for an Adept charm, attacks get reflected back at adept level and so forth. You'd have to tweak the concentration requirement and casting time some as well for Coercers.
Would something like this be feasible/useful/fun, or am I just way off with this idea?

You 'could' do that, I guess. But that would effectively make charm 100% useless.

Not only would that allow a player to self-cure charm instantly, it would just let them know not to do anything as soon as they see it land if they dont have potions. I guess some people might not, but I ALWAYS watch my detrimental bar like a hawk in PvP. (Guess that might come from being a raider, /shrug )

jam3 · 11-15-2009, 04:36 PM

charm should be out of pvp, was charmed like 5 times in a fight where i was duoing against about 10 people but its fair they can charm me and kill my tank

Siphar · 11-16-2009, 02:21 PM

IMO it doesn't matter how "many" types of CC you have because of the associated immunities.

The main point is how they are applied in PvP!

By this I mean, the resist rate (including immunities), cast time, re-cast time, duration and whether you have to stand still or can be moving.

Illy can mez on the run, coercer cannot.

The coercer "charm" spell (using 3 slots) is garbage in my experience because of the long cast time, short duration and 3-slot requirement.

I believe most enchanters use the AA charm which is faster cast, doesn't have the concentration slot requirement and seems to last at least 10 seconds. This simply doesn't make sense that the AA charm is superior to the spell charm.. that coercers are supposed to be the master of.. Fine give illy access to charm via the AA but don't make it superior... to the spell..

My question is this not being an expert with Troub, can they mez/charm on the run, do they require concentration slots and whats the duration of each. Knowing this info will clearly show how their CC compares to Enchanters CC in pvp.

I think you will find it unbalanced which is why I would like to see the immunities of enchanter abilities removed or at least reduced for pvp. And before people *cry* out OP! etc, please consider the potions available to you that grant 10 sec immunity to stun/stifle, signets for mez etc and the god spells, and well if you can kill the enchanter in 10 seconds with the 10 sec immunity, then you need to have a rethink about your gear/skill. If your pots are down, then well, the worse case scenario is that you get powned.

Not as bad as getting WTFPOWNED by 5+ other classes (brig, ranger, sin, Sk, Pally, Monk, bruiser etc) as an enchanter where you have little chance without pots yourself (unless you are fortunate and able to get off an initial mez.

YasikoSetsu · 11-16-2009, 08:51 PM

Siphar wrote:

IMO it doesn't matter how "many" types of CC you have because of the associated immunities.
The main point is how they are applied in PvP!
By this I mean, the resist rate (including immunities), cast time, re-cast time, duration and whether you have to stand still or can be moving.
Illy can mez on the run, coercer cannot.
The coercer "charm" spell (using 3 slots) is garbage in my experience because of the long cast time, short duration and 3-slot requirement.
I believe most enchanters use the AA charm which is faster cast, doesn't have the concentration slot requirement and seems to last at least 10 seconds. This simply doesn't make sense that the AA charm is superior to the spell charm.. that coercers are supposed to be the master of.. Fine give illy access to charm via the AA but don't make it superior... to the spell..
My question is this not being an expert with Troub, can they mez/charm on the run, do they require concentration slots and whats the duration of each. Knowing this info will clearly show how their CC compares to Enchanters CC in pvp.
I think you will find it unbalanced which is why I would like to see the immunities of enchanter abilities removed or at least reduced for pvp. And before people *cry* out OP! etc, please consider the potions available to you that grant 10 sec immunity to stun/stifle, signets for mez etc and the god spells, and well if you can kill the enchanter in 10 seconds with the 10 sec immunity, then you need to have a rethink about your gear/skill. If your pots are down, then well, the worse case scenario is that you get powned.
Not as bad as getting WTFPOWNED by 5+ other classes (brig, ranger, sin, Sk, Pally, Monk, bruiser etc) as an enchanter where you have little chance without pots yourself (unless you are fortunate and able to get off an initial mez.

Red/Bold 1: Why not? You get the spell charm for free, you have to spend over 20 AA to get the AA charm, I don't see why it shouldn't be better.

Red/Bold 2: We can mez on the run, charm must be cast standing still, and it doesn't require concentration.

Red/Bold 3: No, it shows how our Mez/Charm compare to enchanters mez/charm in PvP. Has nothing to do with CC in general - get the idea that the only CC in the game is mez/charm out of your head.

Red/Bold 4: Lolololol.

11-03-2009, 08:37 PM	#1
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	MokiChan wrote: --------- Coercer: Charm Current: As a Coercer, charming isn't really worth the trouble in PvP. The spell takes 4.6 seconds to cast with 8 points in the spell haste AA and is 35% harder to resist at Master on the initial cast, and 32% harder per tick. To compare, the Troubador charm is 11% harder to resist on the initial cast and 9% harder per tick, takes no concentration, and it casts in ~2 seconds. The Troubador charm does have a duration of 16 seconds to the Coercer's 22 seconds, but the Coercer charm usually drops within 5 seconds of landing, if it lands at all, whereas the Troubador charm quite often sticks for almost the full duration. Change in PvP: First and foremost it should land much more reliably in PvP and be far less likely to drop before the duration runs out. Reducing the cast time significantly would also be nice. It's hard to suggest improvements for our charm spell without suggesting that the Troubador charm be nerfed, because I really don't want to call for nerfs on anyone elses class. But it does bother me that Troubadors are starting to usurp the crowd control role from Enchanters in PvP, especially since crowd control (and Charm in particular) are the Coercer's raison d'etre, so to speak. So, in general terms, I'd like to see the Coercer's charm spell improved somehow to make it more useful/desireable than the Troubador equivalent, without taking anything away from the Troubador class. Charm is our signature spell, after all. *** Addendum: The main gripe from a lot of players about Charm is that it ends combat if you use it in a 1v1 fight. I completely agree with those players that say Charm should not end a PvP encounter if it is used in a 1v1 fight, because that allows the player that did the Charming to zone away or evac (whether this is the scout evac, a godspell or a tinkered evac doesn't matter). Charm should not end PvP encounters. --------- I agree with most of your post, but let's not get dramatic, here. --Coercer-- (Using the durations from my coercer, some of your may differ.) 1. Shock wave -4 second AoE stun. 2. Silence - 8 second stifle. 3. Pure Awe - 13.5 second ENCOUNTER mez. 4. Mesmerize - 22.5 second mez (ON A 4.7 SECOND RECAST! The troub mez is on a 14 second recast!) 5. Medusa Gaze -4.3 second stun 6. Ego Shock -9 second ENCOUNTER daze. 7. Amnesia - 5 second Stun/Detarget 8. Stupefy - 4.3 second ENCOUNTER stun. ----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too. 9. Hypnosis - 16 second charm (On a 2.10 second cast, and has a much faster recast as the troub charm at 23 seconds! An as good, if not superior skill. Mine actually reads 37% harder to resist / 34% per tick, on my coercer. Better than my troubs by far.) --Troubador-- (Again, durations from my troub.) 1. 8 second stifle (both bow shots HAVE to land for the stifle to take effect. Not so common on tanks/scouts.) 2. 29.8 second mez (on a 14 second recast. 3x as long as the coercer version. 41% harder to resist at master 1 with 5 aa.) 3. 20 second charm (Agan, 41 second recast. With 5 aa - 23% harder to land, 17% harder per tick. Thats the master 1. The coercer aa charm owns that, hard. Same cast time as the coercer aa charm.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I mean... were you even thinking when you posted that? Posting issues with coercer spells is fine, but dont let your emotions destroy a well thought out post. Cause that was laughable. I'll also throw in this - Coercers get better debuffs, and far superior DPS to troubs in a group PvP setting. Dont believe me? Go read through troubs debuffs. You even have an arguably superior version of Perfection of the maestro. What do you have against us, honestly? xD Continue. xD

11-04-2009, 04:52 PM	#2
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	The comment you highlighted was meant to mainly refer to the charm and mez spells. Perhaps I could have worded that better. But it is a fact that if I get mezzed or charmed in PvP these days, the chances are very, very high that it's a Troubador doing it. Maybe there are just way more Troubadors than there are Enchanters, or maybe all the Enchanters are just nubs, I don't know. But I do feel, perhaps irrationally so, that as an Enchanter, I should get a better mez and better charm than anyone else. The Troubador's mez is already better than mine (with the AAs), and their charm is at least equivalent. You could argue about if your longer recast and higher chance of getting resisted is a bigger drawback than my huge casting time and need to have three free concentration slots, but there's no denying that the vast majority of people that use charm in PvP (that I've seen) are Troubadors, and there's a reason for that. Perhaps part of the reason I feel rather strongly about the Charm issue is that, as a Coercer, Charm is supposed to be a class defining ability for me. When I rolled a Coercer way back in KOS, I rolled it because I enjoy playing utility classes and I thought getting mobs and other players to fight for me sounded really fun. But, as I found out, not only is my charm spell of questionable usefulness in PvE, in PvP it's almost a waste of time to cast it because it's just going to drop right after it lands. So charm has always been a bit of a sore spot with me, because that was one of the big things that attracted me to the class in the first place. It's like someone rolling a Necro only to find that nine times out of ten they're better off not using their pets at all. I could spec into WIS for the charm endline, and I used to have a WIS spec back in KOS for the extra resists and subjugation, but in T8 I've found that neither really help as much anymore and I get a lot more bang for my buck in STR or INT. As for the charm endline, call me proud but I refuse to spend 24 AA points for something that I should already get for free because I'm a Coercer. And about your point that I do much more DPS, I completely agree. I think Enchanters in general do far too much DPS at the moment, and if I had my way I'd go back to the reactive damage that we used to have before GU44. I loved the way a Coercer PvP'd back then, my only gripe about it was that since I relied on reactive damage, I'd have liked a bit more defence. But, as always, PvE wins over PvP, so we got 'fixed'. Instead of coming up with interesting encounters, Sony decided to make every named mob that wasn't completely trivial immune to CC and gave Enchanters a bunch of DPS so we wouldn't get bored and quit. But I don't want to be DPS, I want to be crowd control. If you want my DPS you can have it, if I get to be a real CC class again instead of mad OP DPS/mana battery. If I want to be DPS I'll go play my Ranger. Like I said in the other thread, I don't want Troubadors nerfed because I think a lot of people like the fact that they can do some CC in a pinch, and it's come in useful in PvP and PvP when I wasn't playing my Coercer. But I also think that Enchanters should hands down be the best at crowd control, and in PvP crowd control increasingly revolves around mez and charm, because with immunities and cure pots the other effects often don't do much of anything. __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-04-2009, 07:38 PM	#3
Balrok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	Pocket buddy.... no way I see a troub being a better cc then an enchanter.. I don't even think it's close. Troubs are desired for one thing imho... PvP charm. Coercers and Illy are far superior in every cc way possible besides charm. All great group fights end because a charm landed, so I see why you want it.... especially since it was a class defining ability back then. But it's just a fluff spell for coercers now, since they have so much dps and cc without it. And if an enchanter wanted it, they could get "kind of" a similar version of it for PvP in the WIS line. Immunities are immunities, but I know doing group vs group fights while exile... All I have to do is cycle my AOE DPS and I lock down groups (stifle/stuns). If I want to take a player out of the mix, phase, mez.. bye. Cyling thru group tragets looking for immunities to be down and drop the our single target stifles/stuns between aoes are crazy.. cause the recast is so fast....... aoe mez... crap is endless. If a coercer got a troub version of charm in pvp I think I would vomitt it would be too OP. If anything, the class needs to be toned down all together. atm, charm is a class defining ability for troubs and a fluff spell for coercers. And yes... I miss my 'old coercer' too. __________________ The PvP issues are known and will be worked on "when time allows". Olihin

11-04-2009, 07:56 PM	#4
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	I didn't say they were better, I said they were starting to encroach on that territory, which I think is true. Like you said, one troub charm is enough to end a lot of really good fights, which is something I could never do without charming. Unfortunately I haven't been exiled in T8 so I can't really get any immediate feedback in that department, and the complete lack of any group pvp outside of TG (where a million noobs are just waiting to jump in and leech your fights) doesn't help either. As for the Troub charm, I don't really want it, but I'd like mine to be more than fluff. I don't really have an easy answer as to how to do that without making it ridiculously OP, but since we were supposed to give feedback on specific spells in that other thread I thought I'd mention it. As it is I don't even have the T8 version on my hotbar for pvp, and in PvE I use a T5 master charm. I think my real worry here is that Sony is starting to phase crowd control out of the game (especially in PvE), and turning it into a spam dps clicky fest. EDIT: and i'll reword that original post about charm so it doesn't sound as whiny. I wrote it late at night when I was tired and grumpy, so there's my excuse. __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-04-2009, 08:06 PM	#5
Balrok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	MokiChan wrote: I think my real worry here is that Sony is starting to phase crowd control out of the game (especially in PvE), and turning it into a spam dps clicky fest. imho.. the problem is they gave us too much. So when they design a mob or encounter, they have to decide if they want the mob to be cc'ed or immune. Cause honestly.. find me a mob that can be CC'ed and I'll lock it down and kill it without being touched. Most other mmo's I play... you don't get all these variations of cc spells. Heck, I'd even be open to adding immunity timers to PvE like you see in PvP.... why not... cause they can't take away spells.. or can they?! I feel sorry for mouse clickers in this game... especially enchanters. My poor keyboard gets hammered on... .couldn't imagine doing all that mouse clicking. __________________ The PvP issues are known and will be worked on "when time allows". Olihin

11-04-2009, 08:28 PM	#6
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	I'm a mouse clicker They do have PvP style CC immunities on epic mobs, provided they aren't outright immune to being CCed. But as an example of a fun CC fight, Gnorbl the Playful was a fight I really enjoyed doing with Pocket because of all the adds that needed mezzing. Nexona is kind of like that because of those adds that need to be mezzed, but beyond that I haven't run across a real CC fight in T8. It is harder to design an encounter that allows us to use our full range of CC abilities without making it so ridiculous that you could solo it, but it's not impossible. Maybe a set of two mobs like Khalan Dar/Phara Dar, where they alternate being immune to mez, so you have to keep one mezzed and burn the other? Maybe a mob that alternates being vulnerable to one type of CC, so you have to stun/stifle/daze at the right times? __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-04-2009, 09:24 PM	#7
Paikis Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,254	And what happens in those kinds of encounters when you don't have an enchanter? They can't be killed. Either they make the fights easy enough that you can do it without an enchanter, in which case you wont be mezzing, you'll just be DPSing.... or they make the fights hard enough that you have to mezz, in which case they can't be killed without an enchanter (or a troub I guess). In EQ1 the 'holy trinity' was tank, heals, chanter. In EQ2, you can do things without an enchanter. Unfortunately the glory days of enchanters are over, which is a shame, because I loved being the guy who was keeping 12 mobs busy while my group dealt with them one at a time. Enchanters were the dam that held back groups deaths alot of the time. Enough Nostalgia, back on topic. If you want the best charm in the game, spend the 24 AA points and get it. From my experience with it (80 Illy/80 coercer as well as 80 troub) the WIS line charm very rarely resists, almost always runs full duration and gives you full player-controls... which is something that no other pvp-enabled charm in the game has. You have access to the best charm (by far) in the game, I don't see any reason to be nerfing Troubador charm just because you don't want to spend 24 AAs. I have to spend alot more than just that to get run speed on my bard. __________________ Kaelas, Necromancer Valindor, Templar Paikis, Troubador Ashk, Berserker Mirbolt, Shadowknight

11-05-2009, 01:43 AM	#8
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	Paikis wrote: And what happens in those kinds of encounters when you don't have an enchanter? They can't be killed. Either they make the fights easy enough that you can do it without an enchanter, in which case you wont be mezzing, you'll just be DPSing.... or they make the fights hard enough that you have to mezz, in which case they can't be killed without an enchanter (or a troub I guess). In EQ1 the 'holy trinity' was tank, heals, chanter. In EQ2, you can do things without an enchanter. Unfortunately the glory days of enchanters are over, which is a shame, because I loved being the guy who was keeping 12 mobs busy while my group dealt with them one at a time. Enchanters were the dam that held back groups deaths alot of the time. Enough Nostalgia, back on topic. If you want the best charm in the game, spend the 24 AA points and get it. From my experience with it (80 Illy/80 coercer as well as 80 troub) the WIS line charm very rarely resists, almost always runs full duration and gives you full player-controls... which is something that no other pvp-enabled charm in the game has. You have access to the best charm (by far) in the game, I don't see any reason to be nerfing Troubador charm just because you don't want to spend 24 AAs. I have to spend alot more than just that to get run speed on my bard. Aww, all the good discussion went on while I was offline, of course... ._. But yeah, pretty much everything I'd imagine adding has been said. The 'troub equivalent charm' so to speak is only 24 aa away, and as you said - enchanters have too much DPS in pvp. Simply drop a bit of that dps (in the form of the savant line) for your charm you want. Or hell, I've got a few friends that dropped chronomancy for the wis line, as they tend to be unable to sit sitll in PvP anyway (Kiting, knockbacks, stuns, interrupts, etc.) The troub mez is 'arguably' better, if you're ONLY looking at it from a one shot aspect. It will land more often, yes. It will last a few seconds longer, yes. However, in group pvp, the coercer's mez is FAR superior, due to the extremely short recast. The point is to be able to cycle is through the non immune members as fast as possible, giving the enemy group as little room for action as possible. I'm not really gonna bother going in to the PvE aspect of coercer, as quite frankly, I don't really care - the only fun I have with this game any more is whats left of the PvP - if you even want to call it that. (I play on nagafen.) Going back to your first post to note a good point, though - being able to use possess essence on a player would be a good way to make your charm alternative useful in pvp. The essence would obviously be a much weaker version, but still very worth casting. PS: I'm a dirty clicker, lawl. All preference - people can argue it all they want, no one way is more effective. xD

11-05-2009, 06:18 AM	#9
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	Exur@Nagafen wrote: MokiChan wrote: I think my real worry here is that Sony is starting to phase crowd control out of the game (especially in PvE), and turning it into a spam dps clicky fest. imho.. the problem is they gave us too much. So when they design a mob or encounter, they have to decide if they want the mob to be cc'ed or immune. Cause honestly.. find me a mob that can be CC'ed and I'll lock it down and kill it without being touched. Most other mmo's I play... you don't get all these variations of cc spells. Heck, I'd even be open to adding immunity timers to PvE like you see in PvP.... why not... cause they can't take away spells.. or can they?! I feel sorry for mouse clickers in this game... especially enchanters. My poor keyboard gets hammered on... .couldn't imagine doing all that mouse clicking. The way I see it there are two thing they can do to make CC a little less ridiculously OP in pve. Either put some immunity timers, which would make things more complicated, while probably still not stopping the best chanters (as they would just cycle through different kind of CCs to workaround the immunity timers), or increase the recast timers on the CC abilities by crazy amounts, so that you can't keep a mob locked forever by your own, but that would be a problem as some CC spells are used in the dps spell rotation (like daze and stiffle for the illy). Anyway immunity timers would surely be a better solution than current mobs that are just plain immune to everything... The CC aspect was what attracted me to the class in the first place, but after seeing how easy it is to lockdown mobs in pve I don't even see the point anymore. 1st time I saw the recast timer on my mezz I was like "[Removed for Content]". Just look at Nexona for instance you have what ? 5 dragons, coming one by one so as an illy one of my single target mezzes is up everytime a drake spawns ... Any illy worth a salt should be able to rotate his mezz and keep all locked down. If a tab targetting noob hits one drake there is still the instant cast mezz or the group mezz... Maybe it's a bit more tricky for a coercer but if one chanter can't manage it just put 2 on this job and gratz you win. Same with the goblin fight in RE, you open with group mezz then spread single target mezzes on whatever mob is running wild and that's it. It's cool to feel desired by the group/raid mates of course, but I don't see those scripts as particularly challenging or exciting, despite them being obviously designed "for my class". So I'm not really eager to see more of such encounters in the next xpac, especially if the price is nerfed dps, but maybe it's just me hehe. I guess it's like those tanks who didn't want to be only tauntbots in the fighter revamp context Sorry this has little to do with pvp.

11-05-2009, 07:15 AM	#10
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Paikis wrote: And what happens in those kinds of encounters when you don't have an enchanter? They can't be killed. Either they make the fights easy enough that you can do it without an enchanter, in which case you wont be mezzing, you'll just be DPSing.... or they make the fights hard enough that you have to mezz, in which case they can't be killed without an enchanter (or a troub I guess). In EQ1 the 'holy trinity' was tank, heals, chanter. In EQ2, you can do things without an enchanter. Unfortunately the glory days of enchanters are over, which is a shame, because I loved being the guy who was keeping 12 mobs busy while my group dealt with them one at a time. Enchanters were the dam that held back groups deaths alot of the time. This is a valid point, but any raid worth mentioning will have at least a Coercer and an Illusionist, and probably they'll have 3-4 Enchanters to put one in each group for power regen. Enchanters are still very much a needed class in raids, but in my opinion they're needed for the wrong reasons (mad DPS while pumping power). And, as an aside, I was trying hard to emphasise that I wasn't asking for a Troub nerf. We have Darkor for that, and I don't think he needs any help in that department. Naemesis@Nagafen wrote: It's cool to feel desired by the group/raid mates of course, but I don't see those scripts as particularly challenging or exciting, despite them being obviously designed "for my class". So I'm not really eager to see more of such encounters in the next xpac, especially if the price is nerfed dps, but maybe it's just me hehe. I guess it's like those tanks who didn't want to be only tauntbots in the fighter revamp context Sorry this has little to do with pvp. Well it has to do with PvP in the sense that PvE always has direct and far-reaching impact on PvP (see Coercer and Shadowknight revamp). In PvE, the mobs that you would want to CC you couldn't, and the ones that you could you didn't need to, so Enchanters were complaining they were bored of being buff bots that hit mana flow every time it was up. So, instead of coming up with encounters that you had to use some CC, Sony took the easy way out and just gave Enchanters a bunch of DPS so they wouldn't be bored. But in PvP we can still use our CC, and now we have sick dps on top of it. So I think talking about PvE in this forum is legitimate to an extent, because it does have a lot of effect on PvP sometimes. __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-05-2009, 07:34 AM	#11
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	Well if the plan didn't change in next xpac enchanters buffs will be raidwide, and they will be able to cast their single target buffs on one member per group in the raid. That means that while raids won't really need more than 1 coercer and 1 illusionnist (though more might still prove better), no serious raiding will be possible without 1 of each enchanter in the raid (as loosing 4 CH or 4 TC + IA would be huge I guess). So I guess designing encounters for at least 2 chanters in the raid is a safe assumption. As far as group content is concerned I don't believe it's a good idea to make chanters required for that. We already bring more than enough to the group as is, without having encounters tailored for us.

11-05-2009, 10:49 AM	#12
Peak Server: Nagafen Guild: Slice of Life Rank: Trinity Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 501	What coercer uses WIS line? I mean seriously. Lol at that. YasikoSetsuna wrote: ----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too. __________________

11-05-2009, 11:18 AM	#13
Balrok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	Peak@Nagafen wrote: What coercer uses WIS line? I mean seriously. Lol at that. YasikoSetsuna wrote: ----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too. lol... I was going to say the same thing yesterday.. .but I decided to just let it go. __________________ The PvP issues are known and will be worked on "when time allows". Olihin

11-05-2009, 11:29 AM	#14
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	Peak@Nagafen wrote: What coercer uses WIS line? I mean seriously. Lol at that. YasikoSetsuna wrote: ----- Every coercer thats I've rolled with thats been serious about group pvp used the wisdom line, for the mez recast + the beast charm at the end. So I'll add that, too. In PvP? I know quite a few, all very good at their class. It's obviously a useless line for PvE, but thats what mirrors are for. I maily pvp on my troub now days, so I dont bother switching out of my PvE spec any more on my coercer. Would you seriously take Savant or Chronomancy over the best PvP setting charm in the game, for a group PvP setting? Sure, you could have 15% base damage, or you could completely take their healer/tank/highest DPS out of the picture for 16 seconds. (Charms duration all depends on how crap their healer is at curing, assuming you dont target the healer its self. Most healers are, so it usually lasts pretty long, from personal experience.) I personally find Chronomancy to be less and less useful in pvp, with all the resists/stuns/knockbacks/interrupts/stifles/you name it flying around in group PvP. Again, I'm talking about GROUP pvp. Solo pvp will never, ever, ever be balanced with the amount of classes available. I doubt group will be, either, but at the moment, it is more so than solo.

11-05-2009, 12:53 PM	#15
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Those 24 points I'd much much rather spend in STR for Counterblade, and the intermediate abilities in STR are a lot better than the ones leading up to the endline in WIS. All in all I think STR gives you a much bigger bang for your buck as far as sheer points spent goes. I think maybe it's time for me to finally get over my continual disappointment with Charm. It's been three (almost four?) years since I first started my Coercer, and I've been complaining about Charm ever since. Maybe it's time for me to just accept that Charm is a cheese move in PvP, and with the myth removing the conc requirement on Possess Essence, it's become less and less useful in PvE as well. Hell my Ranger's Stream of Arrows move has been even less useful than Charm and for some reason that doesn't bother me at all. __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-05-2009, 06:24 PM	#16
Peak Server: Nagafen Guild: Slice of Life Rank: Trinity Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 501	I was talking about group PVP, too. Again, why would any enchanter ever use the WIS line? __________________

11-05-2009, 06:41 PM	#17
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	Peak@Nagafen wrote: I was talking about group PVP, too. Again, why would any enchanter ever use the WIS line? I gave you a legitimate answer to your question, sir. You may not like it, but your personal choice of AA for PvP is not the 'indefinite uncontested perfect allocation.' Move along.

11-05-2009, 06:54 PM	#18
Balrok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	YasikoSetsuna wrote: Peak@Nagafen wrote: I was talking about group PVP, too. Again, why would any enchanter ever use the WIS line? I gave you a legitimate answer to your question, sir. You may not like it, but your personal choice of AA for PvP is not the 'indefinite uncontested perfect allocation.' Move along. I'll concede. If you never left home without a group.. then STR line is pretty trivial. Then it's a choice of losing +15 to base damage or spell haste. I'd have a tough time giving both up.. but that my problem. I got flamed at by an old guild officer once... and I quote, "If you wanted to play a DPS class you should of rolled a wiz!" I put him on ignore. Trust me when I say it's not easy to follow directions with a raid leader ignored! __________________ The PvP issues are known and will be worked on "when time allows". Olihin

11-06-2009, 06:22 AM	#19
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	Exur@Nagafen wrote: I'll concede. If you never left home without a stacked group.. then STR line is pretty trivial. Then it's a choice of losing +15 to base damage or spell haste. I'd have a tough time giving both up.. but that my problem. I got flamed at by an old guild officer once... and I quote, "If you wanted to play a DPS class you should of rolled a wiz!" I put him on ignore. Trust me when I say it's not easy to follow directions with a raid leader ignored! If you have a good tank and healer to keep you from getting beat on, then yes. But, at least for me, that's not always the case, especially since I enjoy small group pvp a bit more than six on six fights. __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-06-2009, 11:40 AM	#20
Peak Server: Nagafen Guild: Slice of Life Rank: Trinity Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 501	Regardless of group setup, I would never use WIS line. Why waste my time charming someone when I could simply kill the group? __________________

11-06-2009, 12:00 PM	#21
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	Peak@Nagafen wrote: Regardless of group setup, I would never use WIS line. Why waste my time charming someone when I could simply kill the group? Not gonna sit here and argue with you about it all day, brah. You're a great chanter, I enjoy your pvp videos. I'm 100% sure you know your class as well as any other chanter. However, chanters are one of the few classes that don't have their AA choice set in stone. There is no BEST choice Somtimes 15% base damage is better for the situation. Sometimes 15% base damage will do you no good, and having the charm would have been the game breaker. It's all preference.

11-06-2009, 01:15 PM	#22
Balrok Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	YasikoSetsuna wrote: having the charm would have been the game breaker. I cannot argue this point. It can be quite a lame spell if you ask me. We used to do 6v6 and played pick'm.... if there was 1 troub, he went first cause it ment "we win" button if it's timed right on the right person. I rolled with it for a short duration.. only situation I had fun with was finding 2v1's and charming a templar who thought his/her sanctuary was OP. __________________ The PvP issues are known and will be worked on "when time allows". Olihin

11-14-2009, 12:32 PM	#23
MokiCh General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 481	So I was thinking some more about the Charm spell, and my problem of not wanting my class defining spell to be fluff, but also not wanting a stupid OP cheese spell, and I had an idea. I thought of straight putting this in the feedback thread, but I thought I'd run it by you distinguished gentlemen first. What if Charm got changed to a detrimental that you put on another player that makes all their offensive abilities hit their own group instead of yours for the duration of the spell. They would still be 'fighting for you', but without the stupid complete lack of control you have now. Maybe for scouts and mages it makes all attacks hit their own group instead of yours, for healers any heals heal your group instead of theirs, for tanks any taunts force their group to lock target onto them. Different versions of the spell could have different durations. AA charm/troub could be 5-7 seconds, Coercer 10 seconds. Make the spell level rules the same as in PvE, for an Adept charm, attacks get reflected back at adept level and so forth. You'd have to tweak the concentration requirement and casting time some as well for Coercers. Would something like this be feasible/useful/fun, or am I just way off with this idea? __________________ Pocketlint - Coercer. Emai - Ranger. Nagafen.

11-14-2009, 08:03 PM	#24
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	MokiChan wrote: So I was thinking some more about the Charm spell, and my problem of not wanting my class defining spell to be fluff, but also not wanting a stupid OP cheese spell, and I had an idea. I thought of straight putting this in the feedback thread, but I thought I'd run it by you distinguished gentlemen first. What if Charm got changed to a detrimental that you put on another player that makes all their offensive abilities hit their own group instead of yours for the duration of the spell. They would still be 'fighting for you', but without the stupid complete lack of control you have now. Maybe for scouts and mages it makes all attacks hit their own group instead of yours, for healers any heals heal your group instead of theirs, for tanks any taunts force their group to lock target onto them. Different versions of the spell could have different durations. AA charm/troub could be 5-7 seconds, Coercer 10 seconds. Make the spell level rules the same as in PvE, for an Adept charm, attacks get reflected back at adept level and so forth. You'd have to tweak the concentration requirement and casting time some as well for Coercers. Would something like this be feasible/useful/fun, or am I just way off with this idea? You 'could' do that, I guess. But that would effectively make charm 100% useless. Not only would that allow a player to self-cure charm instantly, it would just let them know not to do anything as soon as they see it land if they dont have potions. I guess some people might not, but I ALWAYS watch my detrimental bar like a hawk in PvP. (Guess that might come from being a raider, /shrug )

11-15-2009, 04:36 PM	#25
jam3 General Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 724	charm should be out of pvp, was charmed like 5 times in a fight where i was duoing against about 10 people but its fair they can charm me and kill my tank

11-16-2009, 02:21 PM	#26
Siphar Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,322	IMO it doesn't matter how "many" types of CC you have because of the associated immunities. The main point is how they are applied in PvP! By this I mean, the resist rate (including immunities), cast time, re-cast time, duration and whether you have to stand still or can be moving. Illy can mez on the run, coercer cannot. The coercer "charm" spell (using 3 slots) is garbage in my experience because of the long cast time, short duration and 3-slot requirement. I believe most enchanters use the AA charm which is faster cast, doesn't have the concentration slot requirement and seems to last at least 10 seconds. This simply doesn't make sense that the AA charm is superior to the spell charm.. that coercers are supposed to be the master of.. Fine give illy access to charm via the AA but don't make it superior... to the spell.. My question is this not being an expert with Troub, can they mez/charm on the run, do they require concentration slots and whats the duration of each. Knowing this info will clearly show how their CC compares to Enchanters CC in pvp. I think you will find it unbalanced which is why I would like to see the immunities of enchanter abilities removed or at least reduced for pvp. And before people cry out OP! etc, please consider the potions available to you that grant 10 sec immunity to stun/stifle, signets for mez etc and the god spells, and well if you can kill the enchanter in 10 seconds with the 10 sec immunity, then you need to have a rethink about your gear/skill. If your pots are down, then well, the worse case scenario is that you get powned. Not as bad as getting WTFPOWNED by 5+ other classes (brig, ranger, sin, Sk, Pally, Monk, bruiser etc) as an enchanter where you have little chance without pots yourself (unless you are fortunate and able to get off an initial mez.

11-16-2009, 08:51 PM	#27
YasikoSetsu General Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 193	Siphar wrote: IMO it doesn't matter how "many" types of CC you have because of the associated immunities. The main point is how they are applied in PvP! By this I mean, the resist rate (including immunities), cast time, re-cast time, duration and whether you have to stand still or can be moving. Illy can mez on the run, coercer cannot. The coercer "charm" spell (using 3 slots) is garbage in my experience because of the long cast time, short duration and 3-slot requirement. I believe most enchanters use the AA charm which is faster cast, doesn't have the concentration slot requirement and seems to last at least 10 seconds. This simply doesn't make sense that the AA charm is superior to the spell charm.. that coercers are supposed to be the master of.. Fine give illy access to charm via the AA but don't make it superior... to the spell.. My question is this not being an expert with Troub, can they mez/charm on the run, do they require concentration slots and whats the duration of each. Knowing this info will clearly show how their CC compares to Enchanters CC in pvp. I think you will find it unbalanced which is why I would like to see the immunities of enchanter abilities removed or at least reduced for pvp. And before people cry out OP! etc, please consider the potions available to you that grant 10 sec immunity to stun/stifle, signets for mez etc and the god spells, and well if you can kill the enchanter in 10 seconds with the 10 sec immunity, then you need to have a rethink about your gear/skill. If your pots are down, then well, the worse case scenario is that you get powned. Not as bad as getting WTFPOWNED by 5+ other classes (brig, ranger, sin, Sk, Pally, Monk, bruiser etc) as an enchanter where you have little chance without pots yourself (unless you are fortunate and able to get off an initial mez. Red/Bold 1: Why not? You get the spell charm for free, you have to spend over 20 AA to get the AA charm, I don't see why it shouldn't be better. Red/Bold 2: We can mez on the run, charm must be cast standing still, and it doesn't require concentration. Red/Bold 3: No, it shows how our Mez/Charm compare to enchanters mez/charm in PvP. Has nothing to do with CC in general - get the idea that the only CC in the game is mez/charm out of your head. Red/Bold 4: Lolololol.