Racial Balance

[Cyliena]

Korven wrote:

Cyliena@Everfrost wrote:

Ok, I'm pretty sure I understand this, but at the same time my mind wants to be befuddled by it. From what I see, because my Swashy/Tailor is level 80 in Tailor, but only level 79 in Swashy, I will be forced to have tradeskill innates over adventuring innates?

No, there is no seperation between the adventuring and tradeskill traits, this change means that now you'll be able to select 8 traits at 79 because of your TS 80 instead of the usual 7.

Ahhh ok, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

[Korven]

Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:

1. INHERENT TRAITS.I think we need inherent traits, which are immediately unlocked at level 1, to add racial identity and uniqueness to the races of Norrath. But we don't need a lot; three, pretty much like we already have. But common sense must prevail when gifting these inherent traits. For example: no race without wings would be able to glide or "feather-fall" - there never was lore for any type of elf being able to levitate, glide or feather-fall because of their race, not in EQ2 nor any fantasy fiction - so only Fae and Arasai should get that skill as a Racial Trait. Some races will get extra speed, some may get tracking, some may get both! Some may get sneak or hide...etc. Anyway, all races should get some abilities which are inherent, specific and relatively unique to that race.2. RACIAL CHOICE.There is no reason a Rat (or an Erudite) cannot be a fighter and pick abilites which suit. This is training. It's what allows the races of Earth the possibility to excel at whatever they want. Anyone can be a doctor, an engineer, a stage magician, a dancer, a master of martial arts. Body size, shape and even disability is no restriction to high achievement with any ability or ambition.We should not arbitrarily impose restrictions on High Elves, Kerrans, Frogloks or any race of Norrath. Equal Opportunities for all the races

First, I would like to beg the dev to please please PLEASE do not give any race sneak/hide, I know several races were given this in EQ1, but there are no skill points for this in EQ2, anyone given this ability would be just as good at it as any Scout.

Next, I disagree that any race should be just as good as any other in any job.  An Ogre should never be as good at being a Rogue as a Halfling or Wood Elf, as they are big and clumsy.  This doesn't mean that one can't be an Ogre Swashbuckler, even a very good Swashbuckler, just that they should never be as good as the best Swashbuckler from a more agile race. 

Body size, shape, and intellectual capacity ARE restrictions from high achievment, you can fight past them, become a very respectable member of whatever job you wish, but there will always be people that are just as motivated and talented and don't have to jump over the same hurdle, there will always be better suited people that are better at the job.

A Troll wizard can progress up to the fullest, burning down the hardest mobs, but an Erudite or High Elf will always have a fuller understanding of how magic works, a higher intellectual capacity.  The smartest Troll, whose race dedicates themselves to slaughter and eating, should not equal the best of a race that dedicates themself wholly to intellectual pursuits.

Racial traditions are NOT training, they are tips and tricks an individual picks up from the other members of their race.  If a race is very strong like an Ogre, then most of the race is going to take advantage of their strength rather than going against a weakness.  Most of them will choose a fighter type career field, and therefore most of the traditions they will have to pass on will be within the realm of the fighter.   It would make no sense for any race except humans to pass along equal amounts of traditions from every field.

This is not a restriction on any race, it just means that different races have different advantages.  Which is as it should be.

[Morghus]

Korven wrote:

Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:

1. INHERENT TRAITS.I think we need inherent traits, which are immediately unlocked at level 1, to add racial identity and uniqueness to the races of Norrath. But we don't need a lot; three, pretty much like we already have. But common sense must prevail when gifting these inherent traits. For example: no race without wings would be able to glide or "feather-fall" - there never was lore for any type of elf being able to levitate, glide or feather-fall because of their race, not in EQ2 nor any fantasy fiction - so only Fae and Arasai should get that skill as a Racial Trait. Some races will get extra speed, some may get tracking, some may get both! Some may get sneak or hide...etc. Anyway, all races should get some abilities which are inherent, specific and relatively unique to that race.2. RACIAL CHOICE.There is no reason a Rat (or an Erudite) cannot be a fighter and pick abilites which suit. This is training. It's what allows the races of Earth the possibility to excel at whatever they want. Anyone can be a doctor, an engineer, a stage magician, a dancer, a master of martial arts. Body size, shape and even disability is no restriction to high achievement with any ability or ambition.We should not arbitrarily impose restrictions on High Elves, Kerrans, Frogloks or any race of Norrath. Equal Opportunities for all the races

First, I would like to beg the dev to please please PLEASE do not give any race sneak/hide, I know several races were given this in EQ1, but there are no skill points for this in EQ2, anyone given this ability would be just as good at it as any Scout.

Next, I disagree that any race should be just as good as any other in any job.  An Ogre should never be as good at being a Rogue as a Halfling or Wood Elf, as they are big and clumsy.  This doesn't mean that one can't be an Ogre Swashbuckler, even a very good Swashbuckler, just that they should never be as good as the best Swashbuckler from a more agile race. 

Body size, shape, and intellectual capacity ARE restrictions from high achievment, you can fight past them, become a very respectable member of whatever job you wish, but there will always be people that are just as motivated and talented and don't have to jump over the same hurdle, there will always be better suited people that are better at the job.

A Troll wizard can progress up to the fullest, burning down the hardest mobs, but an Erudite or High Elf will always have a fuller understanding of how magic works, a higher intellectual capacity.  The smartest Troll, whose race dedicates themselves to slaughter and eating, should not equal the best of a race that dedicates themself wholly to intellectual pursuits.

Racial traditions are NOT training, they are tips and tricks an individual picks up from the other members of their race.  If a race is very strong like an Ogre, then most of the race is going to take advantage of their strength rather than going against a weakness.  Most of them will choose a fighter type career field, and therefore most of the traditions they will have to pass on will be within the realm of the fighter.   It would make no sense for any race except humans to pass along equal amounts of traditions from every field.

This is not a restriction on any race, it just means that different races have different advantages.  Which is as it should be.

That is very much how it was in the original everquest, to the point where you outright could not make a certain race into specific classes. But due to the way everquest 2 was made, it has always been a "anyone can be anything" sort of deal.

I remember when I first moved from everquest to everquest 2 and felt outrage and disgust at each and every single gnome/halfling monk/bruiser that ran by or any other similarly absurb race/class combination.

Having options however is a nice thing as it prevents the cookie-cutterness of certain race/class combos being absolute. Certainly there are lore reasons for why certain combinations do not work but there are also some lore reasons as to why they would.

Ogres for example are different from the way they were in the original everquest, the curse that destroyed their originally great intellect has more or less faded by the time of everquest 2 for example, though their original physical appearance did not follow.

In any case I dont see certain race/class comboes being made overly favorable as that is essentially the very reason this revamp is happening in the first place.

[Snosael]

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

There are no words to describe how against this I am.  Shadowknights with tracking was a sarcastic joke about SOE's lack of insight.  Why must this now be a reality?  Tracking should no more be a racial ability than something like manashield.

Since this change is unlikely to be stopped before going live, please, PLEASE, be responsible and don't let this ruin PVP.  Racial tracking needs to be limited.  Reduce the tracking range compaired to scouts (like EQ1).  Force the racial tracking window to close while moving and or fighting.

Please don't mess this one up.  PVP servers have  taken a lot of punishment already.  This could be disasterous.

[Wilde_Night]

Offensive abilities are being canned?  Is this correct?  If so, I know at least one Troll Berserker who will be very sad to lose his Brutal Bashings off his hotbar.  One of his racials that actually made sense to him from a lore standpoint and was useful in his class of choice in general.

[Sehk]

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

I'm glad to hear that the PvP servers were considered in the design of these new racials, specifically tracking. As you can't provide major details yet, we'll have to take it on faith that you're not going to homogenise the racial make-up of PvP servers into a handful of track-enabled races. Here's hoping.

[Bono]

Snosael wrote:

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

There are no words to describe how against this I am.  Shadowknights with tracking was a sarcastic joke about SOE's lack of insight.  Why must this now be a reality?  Tracking should no more be a racial ability than something like manashield.

Since this change is unlikely to be stopped before going live, please, PLEASE, be responsible and don't let this ruin PVP.  Racial tracking needs to be limited.  Reduce the tracking range compaired to scouts (like EQ1).  Force the racial tracking window to close while moving and or fighting.

Please don't mess this one up.  PVP servers have  taken a lot of punishment already.  This could be disasterous.

Yup SK's will have it all now if they choose, bout time I thought they were a bit behind the ball on giving them everything.

I actually like the sound of this change come find me please.

Without wasting time to read all 7 pages was there mention of a evac trait? I would rather have that then tracking myself.

[Cusashorn]

Evac was mentioned long before tracking... yes.

[Snosael]

Evac is already overly available to too many classes.  To the point that it is almost unfair to the classes that dont get it.

Tracking is different and should remain scout only.  Of course any non scout would want this however.

But consider what mages would say if any one would could have manashield,  what would priests say if any class could heal as well they, what would fighters say if well, everyone could have any single SK ability!

What is SOE prepared to do if they mess this up and 95% of all chars on PVP are Shadowknights with tracking?

pretty much game over =(

[Cusashorn]

Snosael wrote:

Evac is already overly available to too many classes.  To the point that it is almost unfair to the classes that dont get it.

Tracking is different and should remain scout only.  Of course any non scout would want this however.

But consider what mages would say if any one would could have manashield,  what would priests say if any class could heal as well they, what would fighters say if well, everyone could have any single SK ability!

What is SOE prepared to do if they mess this up and 95% of all chars on PVP are Shadowknights with tracking?

pretty much game over =(

It's not like this game needs PVP servers.

[Eboncross]

Evac from other classes are not as good as the scout version. Tinkered evac can't be compared to a scouts, it has longer cast/reuse timer and keeps you in combat if you are hit and actually get it off before its interupted. Also its very expensive to make for only 10 charges. I bet most scouts evac atleast that many times in a day.

The LoN loot card evac wont let you evac if you get hit first and only has 5 charges if you are lucky to win it. So again its not the same and shouldn't be compared as the same and unfair to scouts sorry.

Manashield/Devine Aura both are variations with slight diffrences but the result is the same. Keeps attacks from actually hurting you for set amount of time/mana or both depending on which one. Same as diffrent classes having evac diffrent ones have a variation with the same end result.

Tracking should be a scout only abiltiy I agree with you there and don't want to argue that point. I think the word Scout says it all. They Scout out the enemy. How by tracking them.

I would rather have feign death and evac like the other type of Crusader anyway lol

 Dont worry Sno's Ill take you around with my tracking Paladin for some PvP once they make the change 

[Golbezz]

Cusashorn wrote:

It's not like this game needs PVP servers.

The game doesn't need the 2nd most populated server?  That's where nagafen was last time I made an alt this past week, right behind AB with a red tag showing heavy load during west coast peak play time.

I don't play PvP but it's rather foolish to dismiss PvP servers as not needed by the game when some of the standard rule PvE servers are underpopulated and clearly in need of server merges.

[Rainmare]

or it could been just the fact there's what, like 10 or so Pve servers and 2-3 pvp servers?

but besides all that. it seems the general concerns are very simple:

some people, particularly PvPers are concerned about the scout 'super' ability of Tracking beaing taken exclusively from them. I'm sure some of those rangers and assassins and brigs that kill darn near anyone in 3-5 seconds by getting the drop on them through tracking are upset. and I don't know how the pve ones think that without tracking they'd be deemed 'useless' or not wanted. as a paladin, I ADORE scouts 10x more then any mage save a chanter. you hit faster, you have transfers...sorry, but I don't count the wizard's little 4% thing worth mentioning, and I don't think the conjies get one...which goes great with my Amends. and your melee attacks don't get resisted.

the other concern seems to be mostly on things like my own, which is with the 'two package' deal, certin race/class combos that make complete sense will lack their 'archtype' package by dint of the other 'archtypes' were more common. like erudite or high elf paladins/shadowknights. dwarf or barbarian rogues. as in the case with erudites, erudin paladins had I think 2 paladin guilds, one following Prexus, and one following Quellious. Paineel shadowknights followed Cazic, and High elf paladins followed Tunare. both races had thier crusaders as respected and valuable to thier cultures...they just weren't nearly as common as erudite mages and priests, or high elf mages and priests.

like when people think of the Iksar, the usual classes that come to mind are shadowknights, necros and monks...not the Shaman that they coudl be that were quite important to thier culture.

wood elves could be warriors...but if you picture a wood elf, most people picture druids/rangers.

I just don't want to see the perfectly valid class/race combos from traditional lore be kind of kicked to the side because they just happen to not be a dime a dozen.

[MrWolfie]

Korven wrote:

Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:

1. INHERENT TRAITS.I think we need inherent traits, which are immediately unlocked at level 1, to add racial identity and uniqueness to the races of Norrath. But we don't need a lot; three, pretty much like we already have. But common sense must prevail when gifting these inherent traits. For example: no race without wings would be able to glide or "feather-fall" - there never was lore for any type of elf being able to levitate, glide or feather-fall because of their race, not in EQ2 nor any fantasy fiction - so only Fae and Arasai should get that skill as a Racial Trait. Some races will get extra speed, some may get tracking, some may get both! Some may get sneak or hide...etc. Anyway, all races should get some abilities which are inherent, specific and relatively unique to that race.2. RACIAL CHOICE.There is no reason a Rat (or an Erudite) cannot be a fighter and pick abilites which suit. This is training. It's what allows the races of Earth the possibility to excel at whatever they want. Anyone can be a doctor, an engineer, a stage magician, a dancer, a master of martial arts. Body size, shape and even disability is no restriction to high achievement with any ability or ambition.We should not arbitrarily impose restrictions on High Elves, Kerrans, Frogloks or any race of Norrath. Equal Opportunities for all the races

First, I would like to beg the dev to please please PLEASE do not give any race sneak/hide, I know several races were given this in EQ1, but there are no skill points for this in EQ2, anyone given this ability would be just as good at it as any Scout.

This racial trait already exists in EQ2. Wood elves already have Camoflage. Unfortunately, you're a bit late on that plea!

Next, I disagree that any race should be just as good as any other in any job.  An Ogre should never be as good at being a Rogue as a Halfling or Wood Elf, as they are big and clumsy.  This doesn't mean that one can't be an Ogre Swashbuckler, even a very good Swashbuckler, just that they should never be as good as the best Swashbuckler from a more agile race.

Rubbish. In Norrath, this would be racism. On Earth, this is sizist. What part of anyone can be anything they want didn't you understand. So you think fat people can't be acrobats? 'Cos. I mean, all fat people are big and clumsy, aren't they? That's a stereotype, and by their very nature stereotypes are preconcieved predjudices. Sammo Hung will visit you soon to be showing you what the larger framed person can really do. 

Body size, shape, and intellectual capacity ARE restrictions from high achievment, you can fight past them, become a very respectable member of whatever job you wish, but there will always be people that are just as motivated and talented and don't have to jump over the same hurdle, there will always be better suited people that are better at the job.

You are so wrong. Not only is this not true in the real world, but it should never be true in a fantasy world.  

[snip]

This is not a restriction on any race, it just means that different races have different advantages.  Which is as it should be.

Actually, it's a restriction on the player. You're saying that unless you're a Dark Elf, you can never be the absolute best rogue, or; unless you're an Erudite you can never reach the pinnacle of Wizardry. What happens when the devs don't really have a handle on what a race should be and those races end up being also-rans?

No. To restrict based on race is totally wrong. Especially FIVE years into the game - I don't want to change my race and I don't want to be held back by choices I made years ago that I'm otherwise happy with.

Equal Opportunities for all races of Norrath! 

[Mary the Prophetess]

If EQ2 started out as a skill-based game rather than a class-based game, then the "Everyone can be Everything" argument would have more merit in my opinion.

To allow racial traits to equal or to trump class traits erodes the class-based system upon which the game is based.

I have no objection to allowing different races to get new racial skills, but those skills should be less developed and refined than the same type of class-based skills.

A race with an inherent 'quickness' trait, should have a *slightly* better run speed than a race without such a trait.  However that trait in and of itself should never come anywhere close to a class-based speed bonus, such as Selo's for example.

Already potions of, ("I can do Everything"), are homogenizing the uniqueness of races and classes.  I think that those types of potions, (if they are to be included at all), should be limited in their effects and expensive.  If they must be included in the game due to crafting considerations, then they should in no way be as effective as the class-based skills which they are attempting to imitate.

Class-based skills represent study, training and experience and should trump an inherent, but undeveloped, natural talent.

I don't mind if some other race or class can do things I can't.  I will have my own unique abilities.

If a Shadowknight Wood-Elf is to receive an inate tracking ability based upon race, then I am good with that--so long as that racial trait can't compare to the class-based tracking ability of say, a Ranger.

[Korven]

Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:

First, I would like to beg the dev to please please PLEASE do not give any race sneak/hide, I know several races were given this in EQ1, but there are no skill points for this in EQ2, anyone given this ability would be just as good at it as any Scout.

This racial trait already exists in EQ2. Wood elves already have Camoflage. Unfortunately, you're a bit late on that plea!

Next, I disagree that any race should be just as good as any other in any job.  An Ogre should never be as good at being a Rogue as a Halfling or Wood Elf, as they are big and clumsy.  This doesn't mean that one can't be an Ogre Swashbuckler, even a very good Swashbuckler, just that they should never be as good as the best Swashbuckler from a more agile race.

Rubbish. In Norrath, this would be racism. On Earth, this is sizist. What part of anyone can be anything they want didn't you understand. So you think fat people can't be acrobats? 'Cos. I mean, all fat people are big and clumsy, aren't they? That's a stereotype, and by their very nature stereotypes are preconcieved predjudices. Sammo Hung will visit you soon to be showing you what the larger framed person can really do. 

Body size, shape, and intellectual capacity ARE restrictions from high achievment, you can fight past them, become a very respectable member of whatever job you wish, but there will always be people that are just as motivated and talented and don't have to jump over the same hurdle, there will always be better suited people that are better at the job.

You are so wrong. Not only is this not true in the real world, but it should never be true in a fantasy world.  

[snip]

This is not a restriction on any race, it just means that different races have different advantages.  Which is as it should be.

Actually, it's a restriction on the player. You're saying that unless you're a Dark Elf, you can never be the absolute best rogue, or; unless you're an Erudite you can never reach the pinnacle of Wizardry. What happens when the devs don't really have a handle on what a race should be and those races end up being also-rans?

No. To restrict based on race is totally wrong. Especially FIVE years into the game - I don't want to change my race and I don't want to be held back by choices I made years ago that I'm otherwise happy with.

Equal Opportunities for all races of Norrath! 

I did forget about Camoflage, still, I don't think we need to compound the problem by replicating it.  Maybe since they're redesigning the racials they'll remove it?  We can only hope.

Racism?  Sizist?  Kindly keep your political correctness out of my video game.   All fat people are definately big, and yes the majority are clumsy as well.  Some can certainly be acrobats, but their largeness will restrict their movements, there will always be better acrobats because they don't have that restriction.  Sammo Hung used to work with Bruce Lee correct?  Which of those two would you put your money on in a fight?

Believe as you wish, I'm afraid the world will not bend to your expectations.

Actually I'm not saying you're restricted to one race to being the best in a class, that is after all the whole point to this change.  I'm saying the best of a class will, and should be, a member of one of several races that are predisposed to that line of work.  For Rogue I would guess this to be:  Arasai, Dark Elf, Fae, Half Elf, Halfling, Ratonga, Wood Elf.  For Wizard I would guess:  Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, Gnome, High Elf, Iksar, Ratonga, Sarnak.

Seems like plenty of choices to be equally predisposed to be the best.  And you can still choose any other race for those classes!  They'll simply have different choices, and since they are removing all the combat ones, this should not make for a large gap between the races.

[axl_2baz]

I d'like to add that, in almost every fantasy novel / movies / games, those affinities beetween races & classes do exist.

You'll almost never see a dwarf archmage, mastering the most powerful spells, or a dragon-slaying gnome berzerker(while the reverse is true).

[Neskonlith]

axl_2baz wrote:

I d'like to add that, in almost every fantasy novel / movies / games, those affinities beetween races & classes do exist.

You'll almost never see a dwarf archmage, mastering the most powerful spells, or a dragon-slaying gnome berzerker(while the reverse is true).

So which race/affinity cookie-cutter approach is the best to foist onto everyone?  Which author's racial prejudices should be imposed onto EQ2? 

My vote is we should go with "Robert Asprin", his stuff sometimes hit or mythed the mark, but he put the "pun" in "punishment"!

[Midsong]

axl_2baz wrote:

I d'like to add that, in almost every fantasy novel / movies / games, those affinities beetween races & classes do exist.

You'll almost never see a dwarf archmage, mastering the most powerful spells, or a dragon-slaying gnome berzerker(while the reverse is true).

And stereo types are rather boring almost everytime. Now the gnomish perspective on berskering is something I'd be interested in.

Writers often use oddballs that become the best at what ever because they have a different perspective.

[Lleren]

Cusashorn wrote:

Snosael wrote:

Evac is already overly available to too many classes.  To the point that it is almost unfair to the classes that dont get it.

Tracking is different and should remain scout only.  Of course any non scout would want this however.

But consider what mages would say if any one would could have manashield,  what would priests say if any class could heal as well they, what would fighters say if well, everyone could have any single SK ability!

What is SOE prepared to do if they mess this up and 95% of all chars on PVP are Shadowknights with tracking?

pretty much game over =(

It's not like this game needs PVP servers.

This game, and every mmo that involves combat needs pvp servers, preferably a few different types of pvp server. or at a minimum choosable pvp action.  Its just that large a market. 

 Its as big a mistake to not include a pvp server, as it is to not include a RP prefered server.   Even if the RP prefered server is just a tag on the server selection screen, and not a different set of rules.

Then again I also think its a huge mistake that no game that I am aware of includes a "no rules server"  where they server transfer the players of perma-banned accounts, and let them play there with other folks that where banned and still recieve a subsription fee from.  No GM support, or minimal =D. 

[Urgol]

What is SOE prepared to do if they mess this up and 95% of all chars on PVP are Shadowknights with tracking?

No idea of what soe are going to do, but I am going to roll a wiz and pwn 95% of the server then. Oh look Im already a wizzie and pwn 95% of the server, so i dont care. And tracking is cool actually - you dont have to run around searching for writs updates, they find you themselves.

[feldon30]

As a scout, our tracking is so short range as to be almost useless in many circumstances. I've had mobs targeted that didn't show up on my tracking window.

[MrWolfie]

Korven wrote:

Actually I'm not saying you're restricted to one race to being the best in a class, that is after all the whole point to this change.  I'm saying the best of a class will, and should be, a member of one of several races that are predisposed to that line of work.  For Rogue I would guess this to be:  Arasai, Dark Elf, Fae, Half Elf, Halfling, Ratonga, Wood Elf.  For Wizard I would guess:  Arasai, Dark Elf, Erudite, Fae, Gnome, High Elf, Iksar, Ratonga, Sarnak.

You missed Kerrans, Frogloks and Sarnaks. And if you do, so will the developer. Five years ago I created my character(s) based on which race and alignment I wanted to play, I was told then by the game's designers that my choice wouldn't make any noticable difference in my ability to play whatever class I wanted to be, even if I wanted to be a good classed "evil" race or vice-versa.Then the designers shoe-horned in Racial Traits, noticable differences emerged. And loads of people complained because there was an outright favourite. Not unsurprisingly, the race that the lead developer had the best handle on. While developers (and players like you) have this misconception that a Kerran can't be as good a rogue as a DE, then we're gong to end up with unfairness. And unfairness will lead to complaints. And we'll be back in the same position again.Have you noticed how Dark Elves end up on both your lists - and I can't beleive you put Ratonga down on both too. How could they possibly make good wizards with such tiny brains - they can't even speak properly! See? Everyone has their opinions - and no-one is entirely wrong or entirely correct. The system I propose ensures that no-one, player or developer, can play favourites. It also ensures that simple mistakes, such as "not really knowing what to do with a race", and forgetting about Kerrans, Frogloks or Sarnaks, will not unfairly restrict any players. It will also ensure than players who also happen to be Tradeskillers won't be gimped in the Adventuring aspects too.What should make a difference is not what race you play, but who you are as a player.

Seems like plenty of choices to be equally predisposed to be the best.  And you can still choose any other race for those classes!  They'll simply have different choices, and since they are removing all the combat ones, this should not make for a large gap between the races.

The devs thought that the previous traits were not "a large gap", but they still drew a lot of complaints. Any advantage in any area is still an advantage. As a player, you should desire to be the first amongst equals. How you play your character and the decisions you, as a player, make are what should define your success.

Equal Opportunities for all the races of Norrath! 

[Badmotorfinger]

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

Pleeeease don't deny this on PVP servers...  There's absolutly no reason why someone should have to roll a scout to enjoy solo PVP.  IMO, adding the racial ability would be a fix... I can understand why Scout classes don't want to see it, but I think it's a pretty short sighted complaint.

[Badmotorfinger]

Snosael wrote: Frizznik wrote: Sehk wrote: Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers? It has. I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress. You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week. There are no words to describe how against this I am. Shadowknights with tracking was a sarcastic joke about SOE's lack of insight. Why must this now be a reality? Tracking should no more be a racial ability than something like manashield. Since this change is unlikely to be stopped before going live, please, PLEASE, be responsible and don't let this ruin PVP. Racial tracking needs to be limited. Reduce the tracking range compaired to scouts (like EQ1). Force the racial tracking window to close while moving and or fighting. Please don't mess this one up. PVP servers have taken a lot of punishment already. This could be disasterous.

Give me Freaking break... Limiting tracking to scouts is one of the many reasons that Everquest PVP is refered to as Everscout.. Why shouldn't  other classes be able to enjoy solo pvp?  And comparing Mana shield to track is extremely weak.  Track doesn't afect your combat competition.  It helps you find it.

[007djdeadly]

Frizznik wrote:

Teleport to friend in the zone, long reuse.Repair your armor on a long reuse.

Umm, why did I bother leveling a tinkerer?  The repair bot and call-of-the-tinkerer are the only two reasons to be a tinkerer.

[Barx]

007djdeadly wrote:

Frizznik wrote:

Teleport to friend in the zone, long reuse.Repair your armor on a long reuse.

Umm, why did I bother leveling a tinkerer?  The repair bot and call-of-the-tinkerer are the only two reasons to be a tinkerer.

You're missing out on some of the reasons to be a tinkerer, I think . Besides, not all classes will be getting every single ability.

[Neskonlith]

Badmotorfinger@Venekor wrote:

Give me Freaking break... Limiting tracking to scouts is one of the many reasons that Everquest PVP is refered to as Everscout.. Why shouldn't  other classes be able to enjoy solo pvp?  And comparing Mana shield to track is extremely weak.  Track doesn't afect your combat competition.  It helps you find it.

Track affects combat competition by allowing a scout to determine if a prospective opponent is worth attacking or running away from - they sneak reasonably close to scout out their opponent and then decide if it is a class they can take on successfully, or if that opponent is from a scout-killer class that they need to avoid.

Giving scout-killer classes the tracking skill will make an interesting change to game dynamics.

[Oakum]

Snosael wrote:

Frizznik wrote:

Sehk wrote:

Has granting tracking to some races been considered in the context of the PvP servers?

It has.  I don't want to give any major details right now because it is still in progress.  You should be able to see this system on test the middle to end of next week.

There are no words to describe how against this I am.  Shadowknights with tracking was a sarcastic joke about SOE's lack of insight.  Why must this now be a reality?  Tracking should no more be a racial ability than something like manashield.

Since this change is unlikely to be stopped before going live, please, PLEASE, be responsible and don't let this ruin PVP.  Racial tracking needs to be limited.  Reduce the tracking range compaired to scouts (like EQ1).  Force the racial tracking window to close while moving and or fighting.

Please don't mess this one up.  PVP servers have  taken a lot of punishment already.  This could be disasterous.

Seems like a lot of fear from the scouts on PVP about sharing tracking.  Looks like they are scared that all those mages and healers that they have been using track to hunt down and kill will now hunt them down. They don't like the shoe being on the other foot now, lol.

[Jaranna]

Aemm@Splitpaw wrote:

Five years ago I created my character(s) based on which race and alignment I wanted to play, I was told then by the game's designers that my choice wouldn't make any noticable difference in my ability to play whatever class I wanted to be, even if I wanted to be a good classed "evil" race or vice-versa.

Truth.  Back when the game was first released, players were told that, while some races may have more of a certain stat at creation or favor certain classes by default, by the time we got up to higher levels, those differences would be negligible.

My high elf shadowknight should be just as desirable a tank as an ogre shadowknight just by the mere fact that she's a shadowknight.  The same should be true of other classes as well.  People should not be taking Erudite wizards over dwarf or ogre wizard just because the former is an Erudite.