Revamp EoF sets?

TuinalOfTheNexus · 06-01-2009, 12:36 PM

There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor?

They currently have absolutely no crits, very little spell/heal amount, and just belong in appearance slots - even mastercrafted is better. They're simply dated relics from a time when 2% melee crits were a huge deal. Considering Mayong and Wuoshi still require some basic competence and time investment to kill, this seems a bit out of line, and means there's very little incentive to raid EoF zones, even though they currently provide a bunch of green-con encounters that would be ideal for pickup raiding.

Ranja · 06-01-2009, 01:25 PM

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor?
They currently have absolutely no crits, very little spell/heal amount, and just belong in appearance slots - even mastercrafted is better. They're simply dated relics from a time when 2% melee crits were a huge deal. Considering Mayong and Wuoshi still require some basic competence and time investment to kill, this seems a bit out of line, and means there's very little incentive to raid EoF zones, even though they currently provide a bunch of green-con encounters that would be ideal for pickup raiding.

You can dominate all those encounters in t2 shard gear so why update the EoF sets?

Obadiah · 06-01-2009, 01:38 PM

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor?
They currently have absolutely no crits, very little spell/heal amount, and just belong in appearance slots - even mastercrafted is better. They're simply dated relics from a time when 2% melee crits were a huge deal. Considering Mayong and Wuoshi still require some basic competence and time investment to kill, this seems a bit out of line, and means there's very little incentive to raid EoF zones, even though they currently provide a bunch of green-con encounters that would be ideal for pickup raiding.

For every class I play, you could say the same thing about the VP set gear. They are simply dated relics and just belong in appearance slots.

TSO is dead for x4 raid content as far as I'm concerned. We've always been fairly casual and had people we "carried" and you simply can't do that anymore. Ping-pong zone progression is hideously un-fun while you are "progressing". The proc change may be the right thing to do, but it's only going to exacerbate the problem. Since there's very little worth obtaining from VP, casual x4 raiding now means ... 2 WoE groups.

That said, the days of using In Testing Feedback as a "Catch-All" section of the forums are over.

Xalmat · 06-01-2009, 03:07 PM

EoF armor is designed for EoF content. RoK armor is designed for RoK content. TSO armor is designed for TSO content. It's called progression. Would be an absolute waste of time to adjust the EoF armor since it is for not only content 2 expansions old, but designed for players at level 70 and not 80.

If you're looking for what TSO progression involves, here it is. Sure it involves ping ponging zones, but there is a progression. Maybe next expansion they won't make it so ping pong-ish.

1. Senior Loyalist Tilas (ToMC)2. Captain Ikalus (ToMC)3. Xythus Twins (Palace)4. Thet-em-aua (ToMC)5. Strange Stalker (YIS)6. Kultak the Cruel (YIS)7. Switchmaster Xaxlyz (Palace)7. Absatalius (Palace)8. Xebnok the Wretched (ToMC) 9. Tythus Tinzok (Palace)10. Pentaclypse/Ultaclypse (Palace)11. Mynzak (Palace)12. Gynok Moltor (ToMC)13. Zarrakon14. Tyrannus the Dark (YIS)15. Anashti Sul (Palace)16. Field General Uktap (YIS)17. Ykesha (YIS)

For Reference Trakanon probably falls around Kultak the Cruel difficulty, Byzola around Tythus difficulty imo. And a lot of mobs depend highly on crit mit for survival, and are gated until a sufficient amount of the raid force can survive AEs or attacks.

Sabutai · 06-01-2009, 03:20 PM

Xalmat wrote:

EoF armor is designed for EoF content. RoK armor is designed for RoK content. TSO armor is designed for TSO content. It's called progression. Would be an absolute waste of time to adjust the EoF armor since it is for not only content 2 expansions old, but designed for players at level 70 and not 80.
If you're looking for what TSO progression involves, here it is. Sure it involves ping ponging zones, but there is a progression. Maybe next expansion they won't make it so ping pong-ish.
1. Senior Loyalist Tilas (ToMC)2. Captain Ikalus (ToMC)3. Xythus Twins (Palace)4. Thet-em-aua (ToMC)5. Strange Stalker (YIS)6. Kultak the Cruel (YIS)7. Switchmaster Xaxlyz (Palace)7. Absatalius (Palace)8. Xebnok the Wretched (ToMC) 9. Tythus Tinzok (Palace)10. Pentaclypse/Ultaclypse (Palace)11. Mynzak (Palace)12. Gynok Moltor (ToMC)13. Zarrakon14. Tyrannus the Dark (YIS)15. Anashti Sul (Palace)16. Field General Uktap (YIS)17. Ykesha (YIS)
For Reference Trakanon probably falls around Kultak the Cruel difficulty, Byzola around Tythus difficulty imo. And a lot of mobs depend highly on crit mit for survival, and are gated until a sufficient amount of the raid force can survive AEs or attacks.

Stalker is easier than Thet IMO

Obadiah · 06-01-2009, 03:22 PM

Xalmat wrote:

EoF armor is designed for EoF content. RoK armor is designed for RoK content. TSO armor is designed for TSO content. It's called progression. Would be an absolute waste of time to adjust the EoF armor since it is for not only content 2 expansions old, but designed for players at level 70 and not 80.
If you're looking for what TSO progression involves.

Familiar with that, thanks. I think most people are since the developers posted it during the beta. I don't think anyone asked. It is exactly what I said it is - ping-ponging zones offering no entertainment for casual guilds/alliances.

I agree it would be a waste of time to redo EoF or RoK armor.

Xalmat · 06-01-2009, 03:23 PM

The original theory behind ping ponging zones was so that you could experience all of the zones, SoH style.

Kordran · 06-01-2009, 03:41 PM

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players.

ROFL. Explain to me exactly why SOE should design any content for bad players? If you're not good at playing your class, the solution is to get better, not ask for nerfed content.

Gungo · 06-01-2009, 03:41 PM

Xalmat wrote:

The original theory behind ping ponging zones was so that you could experience all of the zones, SoH style.

Ping pong zones are fine when released in the middle of an expansion outside of the normal raid progression that is released with an expansion. It is a bit annoying for casual raiders, although i see why they do it. So that casual raiders can at least see all the current raid zones and get a change of scenery. It also make more sense lore wise and such, but a bit annoying when people have to travel 2-3 places a night. It is basically a no win situation. You either do the same zones day in and out with a fairly linear progression or go to every zone kill 1-3 named and travel alot.

Kizee · 06-01-2009, 04:26 PM

Bad players need gear too...uh huh... /nod

feldon30 · 06-01-2009, 04:41 PM

Ranja wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:
There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players.
You can dominate all those encounters in t2 shard gear.

The awesomeness of this thread crested in the 2nd post. Anything afterwards is anticlimax.

Lodor · 06-01-2009, 04:50 PM

If anyone has played eq1 in the last few years you would see how progression can be done better based on raid gear progression andn ot solely based on level.

You have people raiding lvl 70-75 req gear in eq1 right now when the level cap is lvl 85 because they needto gear up off that stuff then work their way up.

Progression via gear like this makes more sense in the long term. Maybe eq2 is still too young to go this route but someday it should, imo.

Dasein · 06-01-2009, 05:20 PM

My problem with the ping-ponging zones is that it doesn't give much sense of accomplishment. In RoK, you could work on clearing a zone - PR, Korsha and then VP, with the single-mob instances to work on as well. This gave raiding more of a sense of purpose and allowed guilds to complete a zone, which is great for morale. Taking down Imzok and the Overking for the first time was far more exciting and rewarding than killing Kultak or Switchmaster, despite those being harder encounters.

So far, TSO is shaping up to be the most disappointing expansion. There just doesn't seem to be any motivation for raids, both lore-wise and reward-wise. The encounters are moving from being fun to being frustrating, relying far too much on fail conditions, scripts and luck. Maybe it's just burnout, but raiding these days seems futile and unenjoyable. Every fight is like the worst parts of Venril, and beating one just means you've got another few weeks of mastering some different script all over again, while farming that last mob to get everyone enough crit-mit to survive. Raiding is less about having fun and more about simply slogging through the mechanics of the fight- sure, we can do it, but the sort of excitment and seat-of-your-pants survival that we had in some KoS, EoF and RoK fights is gone, replaced by rigid adherence to instructions, with any deviation meaning an instant wipe.

hellfire · 06-01-2009, 06:14 PM

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor?

No it wouldnt.

Besides the eof gear is perfexctlly suited for the eof content leading into rok content.There is zero need at this time to waste time to redesign a full tiers of armor for no reason.

Titigabe · 06-02-2009, 05:26 AM

Revamping EoF legendary sets is, in my sense, a nice idea to give those 3 years old zones new interrest, and to encourage players to stay a while in their T7 in order to run this content, and not to rush too fast to their 80th, preventing them from being bored quickly.

Even Mastercrafted sets are now more appealing than EoF sets

Malaqai · 06-02-2009, 06:32 AM

Dasein wrote:

So far, TSO is shaping up to be the most disappointing expansion. There just doesn't seem to be any motivation for raids, both lore-wise and reward-wise. The encounters are moving from being fun to being frustrating, relying far too much on fail conditions, scripts and luck. Maybe it's just burnout, but raiding these days seems futile and unenjoyable. Every fight is like the worst parts of Venril, and beating one just means you've got another few weeks of mastering some different script all over again, while farming that last mob to get everyone enough crit-mit to survive. Raiding is less about having fun and more about simply slogging through the mechanics of the fight- sure, we can do it, but the sort of excitment and seat-of-your-pants survival that we had in some KoS, EoF and RoK fights is gone, replaced by rigid adherence to instructions, with any deviation meaning an instant wipe.

I agree with this, apart from RoK raiding being good and balanced or mobs properly designed.

I loved KoS, FD and EoF raids, they were fun, and at the time, some of them were hard (especially in EoF).

Time sinks were done properly, using bucket loads of thrash mobs, not just boring waiting or running like in TSO (Tythus stairs etc..., and worst of all - Xebnok Salts)

I really rarely have fun while raiding anymore, only on the first kills, when you get the rush or when you smell blood after figuring something out on a new mob and getting it down.

"Farming" is not what it used to be. It's not fun, and if your raid has an off night on something they killed 20 times, it can get very frustrating.

Progression wise though, I don't see the difference.

In EoF, we did CMF, FT, MMS and EH at the same time.

Clear named by named, wait for some nerfs, kill Mayong and Wuoshi.

TSO's similar IMO... Kill some in TMC, in palace, in Ykesha... Clear TMC, etc.

The only difference is the annoying Crit Mit mechanics that make you farm much more in order to make sure any of your raiders can step in and not get one-shotted with AEs.

06-01-2009, 01:25 PM	#2
Ranja Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,657	TuinalOfTheNexus wrote: There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor? They currently have absolutely no crits, very little spell/heal amount, and just belong in appearance slots - even mastercrafted is better. They're simply dated relics from a time when 2% melee crits were a huge deal. Considering Mayong and Wuoshi still require some basic competence and time investment to kill, this seems a bit out of line, and means there's very little incentive to raid EoF zones, even though they currently provide a bunch of green-con encounters that would be ideal for pickup raiding. You can dominate all those encounters in t2 shard gear so why update the EoF sets? __________________ Elbryan, 90 Half-elf Ranger Thoghmor, 70 Troll Bruiser Rotir, 90 Dark Elf Swash Terrano, 82 Dark Elf Dirge Aymon, 90, Barbarian Shadowknight The Destroyer of Worlds: http://s7.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=84341

06-01-2009, 01:38 PM	#3
Obadiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,154	TuinalOfTheNexus wrote: There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor? They currently have absolutely no crits, very little spell/heal amount, and just belong in appearance slots - even mastercrafted is better. They're simply dated relics from a time when 2% melee crits were a huge deal. Considering Mayong and Wuoshi still require some basic competence and time investment to kill, this seems a bit out of line, and means there's very little incentive to raid EoF zones, even though they currently provide a bunch of green-con encounters that would be ideal for pickup raiding. For every class I play, you could say the same thing about the VP set gear. They are simply dated relics and just belong in appearance slots. TSO is dead for x4 raid content as far as I'm concerned. We've always been fairly casual and had people we "carried" and you simply can't do that anymore. Ping-pong zone progression is hideously un-fun while you are "progressing". The proc change may be the right thing to do, but it's only going to exacerbate the problem. Since there's very little worth obtaining from VP, casual x4 raiding now means ... 2 WoE groups. That said, the days of using In Testing Feedback as a "Catch-All" section of the forums are over. __________________

06-01-2009, 03:07 PM	#4
Xalmat EQ2Achieve.com Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,895	EoF armor is designed for EoF content. RoK armor is designed for RoK content. TSO armor is designed for TSO content. It's called progression. Would be an absolute waste of time to adjust the EoF armor since it is for not only content 2 expansions old, but designed for players at level 70 and not 80. If you're looking for what TSO progression involves, here it is. Sure it involves ping ponging zones, but there is a progression. Maybe next expansion they won't make it so ping pong-ish. 1. Senior Loyalist Tilas (ToMC)2. Captain Ikalus (ToMC)3. Xythus Twins (Palace)4. Thet-em-aua (ToMC)5. Strange Stalker (YIS)6. Kultak the Cruel (YIS)7. Switchmaster Xaxlyz (Palace)7. Absatalius (Palace)8. Xebnok the Wretched (ToMC) 9. Tythus Tinzok (Palace)10. Pentaclypse/Ultaclypse (Palace)11. Mynzak (Palace)12. Gynok Moltor (ToMC)13. Zarrakon14. Tyrannus the Dark (YIS)15. Anashti Sul (Palace)16. Field General Uktap (YIS)17. Ykesha (YIS) For Reference Trakanon probably falls around Kultak the Cruel difficulty, Byzola around Tythus difficulty imo. And a lot of mobs depend highly on crit mit for survival, and are gated until a sufficient amount of the raid force can survive AEs or attacks. __________________ EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

06-01-2009, 03:20 PM	#5
Sabutai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 640	Xalmat wrote: EoF armor is designed for EoF content. RoK armor is designed for RoK content. TSO armor is designed for TSO content. It's called progression. Would be an absolute waste of time to adjust the EoF armor since it is for not only content 2 expansions old, but designed for players at level 70 and not 80. If you're looking for what TSO progression involves, here it is. Sure it involves ping ponging zones, but there is a progression. Maybe next expansion they won't make it so ping pong-ish. 1. Senior Loyalist Tilas (ToMC)2. Captain Ikalus (ToMC)3. Xythus Twins (Palace)4. Thet-em-aua (ToMC)5. Strange Stalker (YIS)6. Kultak the Cruel (YIS)7. Switchmaster Xaxlyz (Palace)7. Absatalius (Palace)8. Xebnok the Wretched (ToMC) 9. Tythus Tinzok (Palace)10. Pentaclypse/Ultaclypse (Palace)11. Mynzak (Palace)12. Gynok Moltor (ToMC)13. Zarrakon14. Tyrannus the Dark (YIS)15. Anashti Sul (Palace)16. Field General Uktap (YIS)17. Ykesha (YIS) For Reference Trakanon probably falls around Kultak the Cruel difficulty, Byzola around Tythus difficulty imo. And a lot of mobs depend highly on crit mit for survival, and are gated until a sufficient amount of the raid force can survive AEs or attacks. Stalker is easier than Thet IMO __________________

06-01-2009, 03:22 PM	#6
Obadiah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,154	Xalmat wrote: EoF armor is designed for EoF content. RoK armor is designed for RoK content. TSO armor is designed for TSO content. It's called progression. Would be an absolute waste of time to adjust the EoF armor since it is for not only content 2 expansions old, but designed for players at level 70 and not 80. If you're looking for what TSO progression involves. Familiar with that, thanks. I think most people are since the developers posted it during the beta. I don't think anyone asked. It is exactly what I said it is - ping-ponging zones offering no entertainment for casual guilds/alliances. I agree it would be a waste of time to redo EoF or RoK armor. __________________

06-01-2009, 12:36 PM	#1
TuinalOfTheNexus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 589	There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor? They currently have absolutely no crits, very little spell/heal amount, and just belong in appearance slots - even mastercrafted is better. They're simply dated relics from a time when 2% melee crits were a huge deal. Considering Mayong and Wuoshi still require some basic competence and time investment to kill, this seems a bit out of line, and means there's very little incentive to raid EoF zones, even though they currently provide a bunch of green-con encounters that would be ideal for pickup raiding.

06-01-2009, 03:23 PM	#7
Xalmat EQ2Achieve.com Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 5,895	The original theory behind ping ponging zones was so that you could experience all of the zones, SoH style. __________________ EQ2Achieve - Your guide to all EverQuest II Achievements

06-01-2009, 03:41 PM	#8
Kordran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,484	TuinalOfTheNexus wrote: There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. ROFL. Explain to me exactly why SOE should design *any* content for bad players? If you're not good at playing your class, the solution is to get better, not ask for nerfed content. __________________

06-01-2009, 03:41 PM	#9
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Xalmat wrote: The original theory behind ping ponging zones was so that you could experience all of the zones, SoH style. Ping pong zones are fine when released in the middle of an expansion outside of the normal raid progression that is released with an expansion. It is a bit annoying for casual raiders, although i see why they do it. So that casual raiders can at least see all the current raid zones and get a change of scenery. It also make more sense lore wise and such, but a bit annoying when people have to travel 2-3 places a night. It is basically a no win situation. You either do the same zones day in and out with a fairly linear progression or go to every zone kill 1-3 named and travel alot.

06-01-2009, 04:26 PM	#10
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Bad players need gear too...uh huh... /nod

06-01-2009, 04:41 PM	#11
feldon30 Fansite Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,424	Ranja wrote: TuinalOfTheNexus wrote: There's a lot of discussion in the Kurn's tower thread about there being little to no raid content for bad players. You can dominate all those encounters in t2 shard gear. The awesomeness of this thread crested in the 2nd post. Anything afterwards is anticlimax. __________________ .. EQ2Wire.com \| EQ2U - Character, Item, Spell, and Guild Data

06-01-2009, 04:50 PM	#12
Lodor Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	If anyone has played eq1 in the last few years you would see how progression can be done better based on raid gear progression andn ot solely based on level. You have people raiding lvl 70-75 req gear in eq1 right now when the level cap is lvl 85 because they needto gear up off that stuff then work their way up. Progression via gear like this makes more sense in the long term. Maybe eq2 is still too young to go this route but someday it should, imo.

06-01-2009, 05:20 PM	#13
Dasein Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,847	My problem with the ping-ponging zones is that it doesn't give much sense of accomplishment. In RoK, you could work on clearing a zone - PR, Korsha and then VP, with the single-mob instances to work on as well. This gave raiding more of a sense of purpose and allowed guilds to complete a zone, which is great for morale. Taking down Imzok and the Overking for the first time was far more exciting and rewarding than killing Kultak or Switchmaster, despite those being harder encounters. So far, TSO is shaping up to be the most disappointing expansion. There just doesn't seem to be any motivation for raids, both lore-wise and reward-wise. The encounters are moving from being fun to being frustrating, relying far too much on fail conditions, scripts and luck. Maybe it's just burnout, but raiding these days seems futile and unenjoyable. Every fight is like the worst parts of Venril, and beating one just means you've got another few weeks of mastering some different script all over again, while farming that last mob to get everyone enough crit-mit to survive. Raiding is less about having fun and more about simply slogging through the mechanics of the fight- sure, we can do it, but the sort of excitment and seat-of-your-pants survival that we had in some KoS, EoF and RoK fights is gone, replaced by rigid adherence to instructions, with any deviation meaning an instant wipe. __________________ Troll Lord Casywdian

06-01-2009, 06:14 PM	#14
hellfire Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NY Posts: 1,842	TuinalOfTheNexus wrote: Whilst I'm all in favor of a focus on hard content with solid rewards, wouldn't it make sense to do a pass on EoF sets to bring them up to similar (but more situational) level with the shard armor? No it wouldnt. Besides the eof gear is perfexctlly suited for the eof content leading into rok content.There is zero need at this time to waste time to redesign a full tiers of armor for no reason. __________________ Summoner pets are 1/3 the dps of a summoner and yet our stats and modifiers do not affect them.Since a pet is 1/3 a summoners dps,a summoner receives 2/3 benefit from gear when compared to any other class. SHARED STATS AND MODIFIERS ARE A MUST! FIX SUMMONERS IN 08! FIX SUMMONERS IN 09! FIX SUMMONERS IN 10! 2011 and Finally we are Fixed! /Rides off into the sunset

06-02-2009, 05:26 AM	#15
Titigabe Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 556	Revamping EoF legendary sets is, in my sense, a nice idea to give those 3 years old zones new interrest, and to encourage players to stay a while in their T7 in order to run this content, and not to rush too fast to their 80th, preventing them from being bored quickly. Even Mastercrafted sets are now more appealing than EoF sets

06-02-2009, 06:32 AM	#16
Malaqai Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 70	Dasein wrote: So far, TSO is shaping up to be the most disappointing expansion. There just doesn't seem to be any motivation for raids, both lore-wise and reward-wise. The encounters are moving from being fun to being frustrating, relying far too much on fail conditions, scripts and luck. Maybe it's just burnout, but raiding these days seems futile and unenjoyable. Every fight is like the worst parts of Venril, and beating one just means you've got another few weeks of mastering some different script all over again, while farming that last mob to get everyone enough crit-mit to survive. Raiding is less about having fun and more about simply slogging through the mechanics of the fight- sure, we can do it, but the sort of excitment and seat-of-your-pants survival that we had in some KoS, EoF and RoK fights is gone, replaced by rigid adherence to instructions, with any deviation meaning an instant wipe. I agree with this, apart from RoK raiding being good and balanced or mobs properly designed. I loved KoS, FD and EoF raids, they were fun, and at the time, some of them were hard (especially in EoF). Time sinks were done properly, using bucket loads of thrash mobs, not just boring waiting or running like in TSO (Tythus stairs etc..., and worst of all - Xebnok Salts) I really rarely have fun while raiding anymore, only on the first kills, when you get the rush or when you smell blood after figuring something out on a new mob and getting it down. "Farming" is not what it used to be. It's not fun, and if your raid has an off night on something they killed 20 times, it can get very frustrating. Progression wise though, I don't see the difference. In EoF, we did CMF, FT, MMS and EH at the same time. Clear named by named, wait for some nerfs, kill Mayong and Wuoshi. TSO's similar IMO... Kill some in TMC, in palace, in Ykesha... Clear TMC, etc. The only difference is the annoying Crit Mit mechanics that make you farm much more in order to make sure any of your raiders can step in and not get one-shotted with AEs.