New Critical Mechanic

[urgthock]

So, it appears that the Devs are possibly planning on condensing all the different types of Critical ability [see the thread here http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=450652] and will instead differentiate each class by how "hard" they crit on each type of crit they perform; it appears that how often they crit will be based off the one standardized Critical Ability score. Since this appears to be a possible upcoming change, I am interested in hearing what some people think the critical multipliers should be in each type of crit for each class. I will give the values I think each of my 7 characters I play might have below, please post your thoughts as well. Although there is a good chance the devs may add a threat critical process, I have excluded it at the moment, since the "fighter changes" are still so up in the air. Please feel free to include that particular mechanic if you would like.

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 2.0 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.5 xHeal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

Templar:Heal crit multiplier: 2.2 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: NilSpell crit multiplier: 1.5 x

Monk:Melee crit multiplier: 2.1 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: 1.3 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.5 x

Necro:Spell crit multiplier: 1.7 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.7 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warden:Heal crit multiplier: 1.8 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.7 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Mystic:Heal crit multiplier: 1.7 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.8 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warlock:Spell crit multiplier: 2.1 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.5 x (The mechanic should also be balanced to ensure heal critical chance/multiplier affects power  transfers/increases and things of that nature, at least in my opinion. As an example, enchanters would also have a decently high heal crit multiplier)Melee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

None of this is in any way shape or form reflective of how Sony will ultimately make the adjustment, and the numbers are set at these levels simply for ease of comparision between the classes (yes I know they are really high). I just would like to know at what level the player base feels their respective class should be if a mechanic like this (or one similar to it) was introduced.

*Edit: Removed smiley*

[007djdeadly]

urgthock wrote:

Necro:Spell crit multiplier: 1.7 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.7 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warlock:Spell crit multiplier: 2.1 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.5 x

Melee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

I will be very disappointed if necros get 1.7x spell crit, while wizzies/warlocks get 2.1x.  This will just widen the gap btw these classes even further.  Necros will then only get a raid slot when the jump in to buy loot rights. 

[urgthock]

007djdeadly wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Necro:Spell crit multiplier: 1.7 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.7 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warlock:Spell crit multiplier: 2.1 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.5 x

Melee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

I will be very disappointed if necros get 1.7x spell crit, while wizzies/warlocks get 2.1x.  This will just widen the gap btw these classes even further.  Necros will then only get a raid slot when the jump in to buy loot rights. 

I can definitely understand that worry. I really only put the necro spell dmg modifier at that level due to the somewhat high heal modifier I also gave them (pet heals, lifetaps, heath transfers, etc). Not to mention that I would think to really implement this mechanic correctly, they would need to ensure that all ticks of DoT spells can crit (I haven't played my necro pretty much since I got him to 80 so if they already do I apologize for my ignorance on the matter). I guess I could see leaving heal crit at 1.7 and increasing damage crit to 1.8 or maybe 1.9. But don't forget, wizzies and warlocks are slow casters (for the most part) and need that one big BOOM hit to somewhat equalize the 5 ticks (each) of your 2 dot spells you got on the mob in the time they cast their one big spell, (all of which are critting at equal rates for comparison). Also, while I understand the necro class is definitely in need of help, they are not, nor were they ever meant to be, T1 DPS like wizards and warlocks. Both summoners really need some help in the utility department imo. Since the rogue is their counterpart, I think they should be given far more debuffs than they currently have, simple resist and stat debuffs are nowhere near enough IMO. DPS, mitigation, avoidance, crit ability etc. decreases are what should be looked into to bring the summoner archetype up to where it should be, not simply throwing more DPS at the class (although a small increase would be warranted I think).

[Sabutai]

urgthock wrote:

007djdeadly wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Necro:Spell crit multiplier: 1.7 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.7 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warlock:Spell crit multiplier: 2.1 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.5 x

Melee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

I will be very disappointed if necros get 1.7x spell crit, while wizzies/warlocks get 2.1x.  This will just widen the gap btw these classes even further.  Necros will then only get a raid slot when the jump in to buy loot rights. 

I can definitely understand that worry. I really only put the necro spell dmg modifier at that level due to the somewhat high heal modifier I also gave them (pet heals, lifetaps, heath transfers, etc). Not to mention that I would think to really implement this mechanic correctly, they would need to ensure that all ticks of DoT spells can crit (I haven't played my necro pretty much since I got him to 80 so if they already do I apologize for my ignorance on the matter). I guess I could see leaving heal crit at 1.7 and increasing damage crit to 1.8 or maybe 1.9. But don't forget, wizzies and warlocks are slow casters (for the most part) and need that one big BOOM hit to somewhat equalize the 5 ticks (each) of your 2 dot spells you got on the mob in the time they cast their one big spell, (all of which are critting at equal rates for comparison). Also, while I understand the necro class is definitely in need of help, they are not, nor were they ever meant to be, T1 DPS like wizards and warlocks. Both summoners really need some help in the utility department imo. Since the rogue is their counterpart, I think they should be given far more debuffs than they currently have, simple resist and stat debuffs are nowhere near enough IMO. DPS, mitigation, avoidance, crit ability etc. decreases are what should be looked into to bring the summoner archetype up to where it should be, not simply throwing more DPS at the class (although a small increase would be warranted I think).

each dot tick already crits.  Anythimg but a flat equivalent of crit values for everybody will be very disappointing.  You stated that necros shouldn't be hitting hard as 't1' dps.  Yea ok, since nobody can come up with any kind of equivalent utility for summoners I don't see why they are continuously excluded from top end dps discussions.  And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?  Yay, heal crit, um necros aren't healers...least last I checked.

I am also sick of whoever the dev was that leaked that now infamous god awful tier chart, I hope you are burning someplace unpleasant.

[Yimway]

Sabutai wrote:

each dot tick already crits.  Anythimg but a flat equivalent of crit values for everybody will be very disappointing.  You stated that necros shouldn't be hitting hard as 't1' dps.  Yea ok, since nobody can come up with any kind of equivalent utility for summoners I don't see why they are continuously excluded from top end dps discussions.  And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?  Yay, heal crit, um necros aren't healers...least last I checked.

While I have no qualms with that being the case, it is very clear from developer posts on the forums the sollution will be providing summoner with more utility of some sort and NOT upping their dps potential.

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

[Yimway]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

Does anyone have a really good arguement why we need seperate melee and spell crit, and we can't just have a universal hostile crit?

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

Anythimg but a flat equivalent of crit values for everybody will be very disappointing.

That is what they have currently as far as crit multiplier, not crit precentage. The change they are talking about making is no longer having a distinction between types of crit percentage, and adjusting different classes crit multiplier across the different types of crit (melee, ranged, heal, spell dmg and threat). If that is the case they should NEVER allow a flat equivalent of crit value (in regards to crit multiplier) for everyone. Do you really think a dirge should crit as much (percent value not percent chance) as a templar? And no, I don't think that it is enough that the base value of other classes abilities are lower, the crit multiplier should not be equal. Extrapolate to all classes performing all secondary actions (sorcerers meleeing, fighters ranged attacking, defilers nuking) Sorry but no.

[urgthock]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

Does anyone have a really good arguement why we need seperate melee and spell crit, and we can't just have a universal hostile crit?

Not at all, but the devs don't seem to be looking down the road of consolidating crit types in regards to multiplier, which currently is base 1.3. They seem to be looking at consolidating crit types in regards to percentage; i.e. your percent chance to crit when performing that particular action (melee attack, spell damage attack, heal, ranged attack, threat generation), and having just one generic Critical Ability (chance).

[Yimway]

urgthock wrote:

Not at all, but the devs don't seem to be looking down the road of consolidating crit types in regards to multiplier, which currently is base 1.3. They seem to be looking at consolidating crit types in regards to percentage; i.e. your percent chance to crit when performing that particular action (melee attack, spell damage attack, heal, ranged attack, threat generation), and having just one generic Critical Ability (chance).

Yeah, I've been reading the threads. 

I've seen murmurs that ranged crit and melee crit would be combined, but when I think about it, I think all Hostile Crit could be combined, and all beneficial crit combined.

The bonuses used to be used to deliniate something as fighter or cleric, or scout or shaman, etc.  But now that both can melee, and until very soon both could spell crit, the whole lines in the sand were no longer relevant.

[urgthock]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Not at all, but the devs don't seem to be looking down the road of consolidating crit types in regards to multiplier, which currently is base 1.3. They seem to be looking at consolidating crit types in regards to percentage; i.e. your percent chance to crit when performing that particular action (melee attack, spell damage attack, heal, ranged attack, threat generation), and having just one generic Critical Ability (chance).

Yeah, I've been reading the threads. 

I've seen murmurs that ranged crit and melee crit would be combined, but when I think about it, I think all Hostile Crit could be combined, and all beneficial crit combined.

The bonuses used to be used to deliniate something as fighter or cleric, or scout or shaman, etc.  But now that both can melee, and until very soon both could spell crit, the whole lines in the sand were no longer relevant.

If you are refering to percent chance then I absolutely agree with you. I still think it is necessary for balance to leave the different crit types distinct in regards to crit multipliers though. As an example, no one should ever crit as hard as a ranger on ranged auto attacks just my 2 cp.

[urgthock]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

Well now that Aeralik has clarified that poisons will not crit anymore, I guess I would actually have to change the swashbuckler to the following:

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 2.0 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 x (Still keeping some crit multiplier since there are a few specific cases mentioned which will allow poisons to crit and if you happen to have the aa or gear that will allow this, you would need at least SOME crit multiplier in place.)Heal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

[Sabutai]

urgthock wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

Well now that Aeralik has clarified that poisons will not crit anymore, I guess I would actually have to change the swashbuckler to the following:

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 2.0 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 x (Still keeping some crit multiplier since there are a few specific cases mentioned which will allow poisons to crit and if you happen to have the aa or gear that will allow this, you would need at least SOME crit multiplier in place.)Heal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

by your logic then why should a melee class crit on spells at all?

[Sabutai]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

Anythimg but a flat equivalent of crit values for everybody will be very disappointing.

That is what they have currently as far as crit multiplier, not crit precentage. The change they are talking about making is no longer having a distinction between types of crit percentage, and adjusting different classes crit multiplier across the different types of crit (melee, ranged, heal, spell dmg and threat). If that is the case they should NEVER allow a flat equivalent of crit value (in regards to crit multiplier) for everyone. Do you really think a dirge should crit as much (percent value not percent chance) as a templar? And no, I don't think that it is enough that the base value of other classes abilities are lower, the crit multiplier should not be equal. Extrapolate to all classes performing all secondary actions (sorcerers meleeing, fighters ranged attacking, defilers nuking) Sorry but no.

And if you read my post I was commenting on the fact that you think a swash should crit harder on melee swings than a necro should crit on spells considering that you bill them as being equal

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

urgthock wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

Well now that Aeralik has clarified that poisons will not crit anymore, I guess I would actually have to change the swashbuckler to the following:

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 2.0 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 x (Still keeping some crit multiplier since there are a few specific cases mentioned which will allow poisons to crit and if you happen to have the aa or gear that will allow this, you would need at least SOME crit multiplier in place.)Heal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

by your logic then why should a melee class crit on spells at all?

Bolded since you missed it

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

Anythimg but a flat equivalent of crit values for everybody will be very disappointing.

That is what they have currently as far as crit multiplier, not crit precentage. The change they are talking about making is no longer having a distinction between types of crit percentage, and adjusting different classes crit multiplier across the different types of crit (melee, ranged, heal, spell dmg and threat). If that is the case they should NEVER allow a flat equivalent of crit value (in regards to crit multiplier) for everyone. Do you really think a dirge should crit as much (percent value not percent chance) as a templar? And no, I don't think that it is enough that the base value of other classes abilities are lower, the crit multiplier should not be equal. Extrapolate to all classes performing all secondary actions (sorcerers meleeing, fighters ranged attacking, defilers nuking) Sorry but no.

And if you read my post I was commenting on the fact that you think a swash should crit harder on melee swings than a necro should crit on spells considering that you bill them as being equal

You are correct sir yes. And for that I do apologize. This was just one mans opinion. Please don't take offense to this BUT:

urgthock wrote:

Since this appears to be a possible upcoming change, I am interested in hearing what some people think the critical multipliers should be in each type of crit for each class. I will give the values I think each of my 7 characters I play might have below, please post your thoughts as well.

If you disagreed, all you had to do was post your thoughts as well and if you wanted to, provide a reason behind the difference. And I feel they are pretty evenly matched as I posted them since the necro was given a higher heal crit multiplier than the rogues spell crit multiplier (even higher now after my revision due to the poison proc nerf) to even out the rogue having higher melee crit multiplier than the necros spell crit multiplier. However, I do recognize that the few abilities that a necro can actually use the heal crit multiplier for are "gimptastic". I could see their crit multiplier for spell damage being higher. Something I stated in an earlier post.

urgthock wrote:

I can definitely understand that worry. I really only put the necro spell dmg modifier at that level due to the somewhat high heal modifier I also gave them (pet heals, lifetaps, heath transfers, etc). Not to mention that I would think to really implement this mechanic correctly, they would need to ensure that all ticks of DoT spells can crit (I haven't played my necro pretty much since I got him to 80 so if they already do I apologize for my ignorance on the matter). I guess I could see leaving heal crit at 1.7 and increasing damage crit to 1.8 or maybe 1.9. But don't forget, wizzies and warlocks are slow casters (for the most part) and need that one big BOOM hit to somewhat equalize the 5 ticks (each) of your 2 dot spells you got on the mob in the time they cast their one big spell, (all of which are critting at equal rates for comparison). Also, while I understand the necro class is definitely in need of help, they are not, nor were they ever meant to be, T1 DPS like wizards and warlocks. Both summoners really need some help in the utility department imo. Since the rogue is their counterpart, I think they should be given far more debuffs than they currently have, simple resist and stat debuffs are nowhere near enough IMO. DPS, mitigation, avoidance, crit ability etc. decreases are what should be looked into to bring the summoner archetype up to where it should be, not simply throwing more DPS at the class (although a small increase would be warranted I think).

[Sabutai]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

urgthock wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why if you're trying to compare necros to rogues do you have swashbucklers critting harder than necros?

Hmm, where do I have that again? Oh yea, in melee crit, not spell crit.

Well now that Aeralik has clarified that poisons will not crit anymore, I guess I would actually have to change the swashbuckler to the following:

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 2.0 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 x (Still keeping some crit multiplier since there are a few specific cases mentioned which will allow poisons to crit and if you happen to have the aa or gear that will allow this, you would need at least SOME crit multiplier in place.)Heal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

by your logic then why should a melee class crit on spells at all?

Bolded since you missed it

I didn't miss anything, critting on poisons shouldn't allow a class that has nothing to do with spells to crit on spells, I mean by your logic.  I am saying that leaving the crit values as they are now is where the game needs to stay.  Messing with multipliers will further the decline of this game.  There will be no reason to play certain classes, at all.  No matter how attractive you make them, the proc nerf you will see more and more people quitting those classes, fed up with the bash over the head.  But if you want to beef up the class you play by all means, I'm just pointing out that if you want true multipliers you can't have it all, you have to pick something you want and that be the only selection.

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

I didn't miss anything, critting on poisons shouldn't allow a class that has nothing to do with spells to crit on spells, I mean by your logic.

Ah, well since poison crits (which again, will be rare but still technically available) are based on the spell crit modifier. At least they were, and as such that multiplier would apply in determining the overall damage of the crit. They may end up changing it to be based on Melee crit multiplier (which would be great and would definitely increase a swashbucklers DPS providing they could obtain the gear that would actually allow poisons to crit). Prior to the proc change, many swashbucklers were constantly utilizing items that increased spell dmg and spell crit. Now that our one CA that had it's crit value based on spell crit (multiplier and percent chance value) has been changed to be based off melee crit (multiplier and percent chance value) and all item procs won't be critting, there is only one reason to still have this multiplier on a swashbuckler at all... those rare but technically still available AA abilities or gear set bonuses that will allow poisons to crit (unless they change that rare but technically still available crit to be based on melee crit instead of spell crit)

[Ranja]

This whole thread is a complete waste of discussion. It is not like SOE is going to look at this thread and say "oh joy someone figured it all out for us" It is complete supposition and fantasy land.

[Sabutai]

Ranja wrote:

This whole thread is a complete waste of discussion. It is not like SOE is going to look at this thread and say "oh joy someone figured it all out for us" It is complete supposition and fantasy land.

yep that's about what I said.  Pigeon holing classes into roles based on a modifier nobody can do anything about is about as smart as peanut butter and spaghetti.  Making it by subclass would make more sense, but even then it takes away the hybrid fashion which makes this game more interesting than most.  Mages meleeing, Priests casting damage spells, fighters whining, um I mean tanking...

[urgthock]

Ranja wrote:

This whole thread is a complete waste of discussion. It is not like SOE is going to look at this thread and say "oh joy someone figured it all out for us" It is complete supposition and fantasy land.

Yep. It sure is. I was just interested in hearing peoples opinions of where the different classes should be in a discussion on this topic.

urgthock wrote:

Since this appears to be a possible upcoming change, I am interested in hearing what some people think the critical multipliers should be in each type of crit for each class. I will give the values I think each of my 7 characters I play might have below, please post your thoughts as well. Although there is a good chance the devs may add a threat critical process, I have excluded it at the moment, since the "fighter changes" are still so up in the air. Please feel free to include that particular mechanic if you would like.

None of this is in any way shape or form reflective of how Sony will ultimately make the adjustment, and the numbers are set at these levels simply for ease of comparision between the classes (yes I know they are really high). I just would like to know at what level the player base feels their respective class should be if a mechanic like this (or one similar to it) was introduced.

Since you obviously have nothing you are interested in reading, hearing from others or contributing, why don't you just move along to the next thread you are interested in.

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

yep that's about what I said.  Pigeon holing classes into roles based on a modifier nobody can do anything about is about as smart as peanut butter and spaghetti.  Making it by subclass would make more sense, but even then it takes away the hybrid fashion which makes this game more interesting than most.  Mages meleeing, Priests casting damage spells, fighters whining, um I mean tanking...

Many classes are already pigeon holed into certain roles in my opinion. Those few hybrids that aren't would be given more flexibility with their different functions. Personally I think a mechanic like this would sincerely help out class balance where those that have one function only are really good (i.e. the BEST) at that and those that have multiple functions will be able to recognize gains in those specific areas without being the best of the best at them. And I think it probably would be best to categorize them by subclass as well (rogues, summoners, sorcerers, predators, etc) but not by archetype (priest, scout, fighter, mage).

[Sabutai]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

yep that's about what I said.  Pigeon holing classes into roles based on a modifier nobody can do anything about is about as smart as peanut butter and spaghetti.  Making it by subclass would make more sense, but even then it takes away the hybrid fashion which makes this game more interesting than most.  Mages meleeing, Priests casting damage spells, fighters whining, um I mean tanking...

Many classes are already pigeon holed into certain roles in my opinion. Those few hybrids that aren't would be given more flexibility with their different functions. Personally I think a mechanic like this would sincerely help out class balance where those that have one function only are really good (i.e. the BEST) at that and those that have multiple functions will be able to recognize gains in those specific areas without being the best of the best at them. And I think it probably would be best to categorize them by subclass as well (rogues, summoners, sorcerers, predators, etc) but not by archetype (priest, scout, fighter, mage).

kinda how you think necros are healers?  No thanks, I would rather be able to define my own worth thru gear selection and skill rather than an arbitrary number I can do nothing about.

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

yep that's about what I said.  Pigeon holing classes into roles based on a modifier nobody can do anything about is about as smart as peanut butter and spaghetti.  Making it by subclass would make more sense, but even then it takes away the hybrid fashion which makes this game more interesting than most.  Mages meleeing, Priests casting damage spells, fighters whining, um I mean tanking...

Many classes are already pigeon holed into certain roles in my opinion. Those few hybrids that aren't would be given more flexibility with their different functions. Personally I think a mechanic like this would sincerely help out class balance where those that have one function only are really good (i.e. the BEST) at that and those that have multiple functions will be able to recognize gains in those specific areas without being the best of the best at them. And I think it probably would be best to categorize them by subclass as well (rogues, summoners, sorcerers, predators, etc) but not by archetype (priest, scout, fighter, mage).

kinda how you think necros are healers?  No thanks, I would rather be able to define my own worth thru gear selection and skill rather than an arbitrary number I can do nothing about.

But you already are defined by an arbitrary number. It is 1.30 across the board for everyone on everything. I never suggested that the ability to increase that mulitplier (and therefore be something you can do something about) through gear or buff etc, should or would be changed . Merely a different base number for different types of crit based on class roles. Sorry, but it is beginning to sound like you are just saying you want to do as much damage as a sorcerer and why can't you have your base crit multiplier be as high as theirs.

[Sabutai]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

yep that's about what I said.  Pigeon holing classes into roles based on a modifier nobody can do anything about is about as smart as peanut butter and spaghetti.  Making it by subclass would make more sense, but even then it takes away the hybrid fashion which makes this game more interesting than most.  Mages meleeing, Priests casting damage spells, fighters whining, um I mean tanking...

Many classes are already pigeon holed into certain roles in my opinion. Those few hybrids that aren't would be given more flexibility with their different functions. Personally I think a mechanic like this would sincerely help out class balance where those that have one function only are really good (i.e. the BEST) at that and those that have multiple functions will be able to recognize gains in those specific areas without being the best of the best at them. And I think it probably would be best to categorize them by subclass as well (rogues, summoners, sorcerers, predators, etc) but not by archetype (priest, scout, fighter, mage).

kinda how you think necros are healers?  No thanks, I would rather be able to define my own worth thru gear selection and skill rather than an arbitrary number I can do nothing about.

But you already are defined by an arbitrary number. It is 1.30 across the board for everyone on everything. I never suggested that the ability to increase that mulitplier (and therefore be something you can do something about) through gear or buff etc, should or would be changed . Merely a different base number for different types of crit based on class roles. Sorry, but it is beginning to sound like you are just saying you want to do as much damage as a sorcerer and why can't you have your base crit multiplier be as high as theirs.

Unless I'm stuttering this is the definition of a number I cannot control. 

And why shouldn't I be able to do as much damage as a sorceror as a necro?  I don't see what makes them so [Removed for Content] special that they need to be held above every other mage class all the time.  Making it so that forever there will be a gap that can never be decreased is not why I play this game.  Making it so that player skill has no bearing on how they are defined as a good player or not but rather by which button they pressed at char selection.

This is the one mistake I think SoE is making with their current vision of class balance, all classes should be able to do what their archetype defines, mages should be the kings of ranged dps, scouts should be king of melee dps, tanks should be kings of standing in front of crap, and priests healers.  Right now you have wizards and some warlocks, assassins and some rangers as the kings of all dps, which should not be the case.  Then comes the utility discussion, but seriously why not just spread the current utility for the class amoung the archtypes and be done with it, but hey what would I know I'm just a retired necro who would rather dps with a pet than sit on raids.

[urgthock]

Is this any easier to swallow. Look I even made the necro better than the swash now. I also made the numbers a little more comparable so that there is not much of a difference at all (which is how it will likely be if it happens at all). There is no hard and fast "right" way to discuss this possible change. As I said before I just had the numbers where they were for ease of comparison.

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 1.4 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xHeal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

Templar:Heal crit multiplier: 1.45 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: NilSpell crit multiplier: 1.35 x

Monk:Melee crit multiplier: 1.45 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: 1.3 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.35 x

Necro:Spell crit multiplier: 1.4 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.35 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warden:Heal crit multiplier: 1.4 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.35 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Mystic:Heal crit multiplier: 1.35 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.4 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

Warlock:Spell crit multiplier: 1.45 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.35 x Melee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

[urgthock]

Sabutai wrote:

And why shouldn't I be able to do as much damage as a sorceror as a necro?  I don't see what makes them so [Removed for Content] special that they need to be held above every other mage class all the time.  Making it so that forever there will be a gap that can never be decreased is not why I play this game.  Making it so that player skill has no bearing on how they are defined as a good player or not but rather by which button they pressed at char selection.

This is the one mistake I think SoE is making with their current vision of class balance, all classes should be able to do what their archetype defines, mages should be the kings of ranged dps, scouts should be king of melee dps, tanks should be kings of standing in front of crap, and priests healers.  Right now you have wizards and some warlocks, assassins and some rangers as the kings of all dps, which should not be the case.  Then comes the utility discussion, but seriously why not just spread the current utility for the class amoung the archtypes and be done with it, but hey what would I know I'm just a retired necro who would rather dps with a pet than sit on raids.

The gap that is there at the moment is there because summoners are lacking. Everyone knows it. Everyone admits it. But increased DPS is not what is required to fill this gap, utility is. Why? Because that is the defined role that the developers have created for the summoner subclass. I am not trying to argue with you over whether that role should be changed. If they change it then they change it. But at the moment, your class has not been given the tools to adequately fulfill the role the devs have "created" for the class. That is the gap that exists currently. Maybe it is shortsightedness on Sonys part that they have the roles for certain classes defined the way they do. But that is an altogether different discussion. Until that role undergoes a paradigm shift, the "best" DPS is not what summoners are intended to do. That is why you "cant" do as much DPS as a sorcerer. They aren't special, they are just designed that way.

[Yimway]

Sabutai wrote:

Ranja wrote:

This whole thread is a complete waste of discussion. It is not like SOE is going to look at this thread and say "oh joy someone figured it all out for us" It is complete supposition and fantasy land.

yep that's about what I said.  Pigeon holing classes into roles based on a modifier nobody can do anything about is about as smart as peanut butter and spaghetti.  Making it by subclass would make more sense, but even then it takes away the hybrid fashion which makes this game more interesting than most.  Mages meleeing, Priests casting damage spells, fighters whining, um I mean tanking...

It's already comming.

[007djdeadly]

urgthock wrote:

Is this any easier to swallow. Look I even made the necro better than the swash now.

Swashbuckler:Melee crit multiplier: 1.4 xSpell crit multiplier: 1.3 xHeal crit multiplier:1.3 xRanged crit multiplier:1.3 x

Necro:Spell crit multiplier: 1.4 xHeal crit multiplier: 1.35 xMelee crit multiplier: 1.3 xRanged crit multiplier: Nil

No, you have now made the necro and swash equivalent, with both having a 1.4 crit multiplier on their primarly role, dps.  A necro will never get a raid spot based on a high healing crit.

Look, I'm not bashing you.  It is just your mechanism of assigning points that I found troubling.  Specifically, you lowered the necro spell crit b/c you raised their heal crit.  

Sadly, this is also the strategy that the devs use with pet-specific gear.  Comparing summoner gear to sorcerer gear, you can see that they lowered the caster's spell dmg/spell crit when they added the pet effects.  While at first this may appear balanced, remember that a necro's total dps is a sum of caster + pet.  So when you lower A to add to B, the sum stays the same.  This is why we all hate pet gear.

And it is why we will also hate the upcoming crit changes.  Not only will we likely have a lower crit mod than sorcerers, but our pet's crit mob will in all likelyhood stay at the nominal NPC value (1.3x).  A double whammy, so to speak. 

The only way to fix summoners is to up their dps.  Utility is not an option.  In fact this is a laughable solution.  Enchanters are the utility mages.  If brigand/swash dps was equivalent to or below bards, would they be happy with more utility?      

[Allforgrog]

urgthock wrote:

Sabutai wrote:

And why shouldn't I be able to do as much damage as a sorceror as a necro?  I don't see what makes them so [Removed for Content] special that they need to be held above every other mage class all the time.  Making it so that forever there will be a gap that can never be decreased is not why I play this game.  Making it so that player skill has no bearing on how they are defined as a good player or not but rather by which button they pressed at char selection.

This is the one mistake I think SoE is making with their current vision of class balance, all classes should be able to do what their archetype defines, mages should be the kings of ranged dps, scouts should be king of melee dps, tanks should be kings of standing in front of crap, and priests healers.  Right now you have wizards and some warlocks, assassins and some rangers as the kings of all dps, which should not be the case.  Then comes the utility discussion, but seriously why not just spread the current utility for the class amoung the archtypes and be done with it, but hey what would I know I'm just a retired necro who would rather dps with a pet than sit on raids.

The gap that is there at the moment is there because summoners are lacking. Everyone knows it. Everyone admits it. But increased DPS is not what is required to fill this gap, utility is. Why? Because that is the defined role that the developers have created for the summoner subclass. I am not trying to argue with you over whether that role should be changed. If they change it then they change it. But at the moment, your class has not been given the tools to adequately fulfill the role the devs have "created" for the class. That is the gap that exists currently. Maybe it is shortsightedness on Sonys part that they have the roles for certain classes defined the way they do. But that is an altogether different discussion. Until that role undergoes a paradigm shift, the "best" DPS is not what summoners are intended to do. That is why you "cant" do as much DPS as a sorcerer. They aren't special, they are just designed that way.

1: Please define our "Role"

2: Which dev(s) defined it and created it, there have been many in the past few years.

       In T7 we were DPS, T1 DPS at that, then came new itemization with RoK and we have never been comphensated for what we lost, going on nearly 2 years. If the crit multiplier goes, in such a way that will widen the gap more than it already is, without something MAJOR to comphensate, i will leave this game. Many others will do the same. Changing crit multipliers by class is a horrible idea.

I'm currently waiting to see what happens with scouts getting to proc the SPELL "Chime of Blades" off of melee crit in this upcoming test update. I have a feeling any current DPS parity between Rogues and Summoners will be lost in favor of rogues very soon.