Challenge for the pvp comunity

Desna · 05-04-2009, 08:03 AM

There are so many threads on what everyone thinks the pvp system should be like, what SOE should change, how little/more the titles mean now vs pre-GU 51 (or ever)...

So I offer a challenge. This is not to think of a way to make the pvp suit your own personal needs or wants, but the community as a whole...can you come up with a basic structure of a pvp system that fulfills the following requirements:

Makes use of titles to reflect both skill in pvp and active participation
Encourages actual combat of pvp, whether it be group or solo, instead of running or title-hugging
Introduces the rush of risk without making the loss so great people avoid pvp for fear of loss (sort of an add on to the above)
Does not specifically favor one class archetype over the others (we all know scouts have track and thus have an edge. it's part of their survivability, move on. The challenge is to work around this ability and current abilities without nerfing a class or removing any player's current ability sets.)
Makes the current playerbase feel fulfilled in their commitment of time with some reward, whether it be title, plat, gear, etc.
Does not change the game significantly enough to alienate the current playerbase.

Again, this isn't a wishlist of things you want nerfed or complaints about the current system, or what you personally would like to see in your own custom-fit "pwn all" dreamworld. This is a challenge to think like a developer; to keep as many of your customers happy without scrapping the existing game completely or losing the feel of the current gameplay.

Who knows, we know the devs and such read these boards, or at least have underlings to do it for them...one of your ideas might just spark something great.

Edited because i r spell gud.

Chulanowa · 05-04-2009, 05:02 PM

Titles - There's really no real way to make title reflect skill. The game, by its very nature, rewards unskilled playing just as much as it rewards skilled. Contrary to a lot of people's assertions, EQ2 is 90% gear, 8% random number generation, and 2% knowing what the heck you're doing. The depth of "skill" in PvP is having the patience (or plat) to get at least mastercrafted and Adept III spells. Hoewever, measuring participation is much easier. Have a set of suffix titles based off how many encounters you engage in, with "fame" gained by how much damage you deal or heal (whichever is highest). It encourages engagement and fighting, and since it's a different title system, we can still tell who it is that's just tossing a single spell into a fight then running.

Running - In addition to the idea of Suffix titles, something needs to be done about runspeed. The way it works now is that whoever turns tail and runs first has a permanant head start, unless their opponent can snare, or sprints. I suppose this is actually a sort of call for a nerf, but if we want to make runnign a less attractive option, that option needs to not be quite do effective. My suggestion is, first, treat sprint as other "runspeed" buffs when in PvP combat - that is, it doesn't work. Another suggestion, in the original EverQuest, your speed was reduced based on how much damage you had taken (really, let's see anyone run that fast after having the tar beaten out of them) Something like this could be added to PvP combat fairly easily, I imagine.

Risk vs. Reward - If you have a clue what you're doing, there's just not much risk in PvP. But for what risk there is, there needs to be rewards. Heightened fame gains when victorious against multiple opponents, or against those 10+ levels above you would be one such idea. Another is to give players random chances to drop exquisite chests of the appropriate level and zone, based on the difficulty (almost no chance for a solo untitled green, better chance for a level 80 Overlord in a raid). Similarly, getting reduced fame for steamrolling others - such as the famous DLW twenty-man raids against two Q's - would be an option.

1000Words · 05-04-2009, 05:14 PM

I tried PVP again.. not nearly as exciting as before now because you don't lose infamy on death.

Whatevs.

Silverzx · 05-07-2009, 10:13 AM

1000Words wrote:

I tried PVP again.. not nearly as exciting as before now because you don't lose infamy on death.
Whatevs.

i know what you mean. the system before was by no means perfect but at least you had something to lose....

Dh · 05-07-2009, 10:35 AM

I would say is more like:

50% Gear30% Random Number Generation20% Knowing what to do

Killque · 05-07-2009, 11:14 AM

As we know, there are several factors that play into a win in the pvp world. And I am listing these in no particular order, class, spell quality, gear, level and player experience. I will never abandon skill and experience as a large factor but having been on both sides of the “gear“ fence, I feel that gear combined with spell quality is the number one thing that wins PvP fights. Now yes, if you put someone who has never played video games in front of a fully fabled character and pit them against a very experienced treasured or legendary player with ap3’s sure we all know the outcome, but please understand where I am going with this.

A possible solution:

Terms Defined

· Equipment Slots – Any equipment slot designated for gear. Food and ammo slots are not included.

· Points –A number given to a piece of gear or a scribed spell that denotes it’s quality. This number directly affects a player’s “Solo class”

· Rank – A title given to a player to denote their Infamy- Ie. Hunter, Slayer etc.

· Fame – An increase or decrease in Rank

· Solo Class – A defined group to which a player belongs based on the gear they are wearing and the quality of the spells they use.

o Heavy weight (HW)

o Medium Weight (MW)

o Light Weight(LW)

· Group Class – A defined classification to which a group belongs based on its members Solo class and the overall group makeup.

· Raid Class – A defined classification to which a raid belongs based on its members Solo class and the its combined Group Class

PvP Reward Balance (Titles, Writ updates etc)

Solo Class

21 Rated Equipment Slots + # of Spells at their current tier.

Point system defined:

Gear: Points possible: 63 (more with Mythicals)

· Mythical*: 5

· Fabled: 3

· Legendary: 2

· Treasured: 1

Spells in Players current Tier: Points possible: 90-99 (varies depending on class)

· Master2*: 5

· Master: 3

· Adept 1-3: 2

· Apprentice 1-4: 1

Solo Class - Classifications

· Heavy Weight (HW)

o 101-150+ Points

· Medium Weight (MW)

o 51-100 Points

· Light Weight(LW)

o 0-50 Points

Killque · 05-07-2009, 01:07 PM

How does this affect PvP play and its various rewards? The easiest to define are 1v1 fights so I will start there.

LW vs HW

In this scenario, a freshly leveled, level 80 casual player with treasured gear and apprentice 1’s would stand little if any chance against a veteran Fabled and Mastered level 80 raider. And of course, this should in fact be the case; I think we can all agree on that. What I think we all also would agree on, is that the veteran player should not receive a full reward if any for killing this player. It is simply too easy. Be it writ update, fame, coin etc.

1. Utilize the point system to determine involved parties Solo classes, and then effectively reduce or increase the reward accordingly.

a. LW kills HW – 2.25x the reward (50% increase for each class above)

b. HW kills LW - .25 Reward (50% decrease for each class below)

So as you can see with this system if it took 30 HW vs HW wins to increase your fame level to the next Rank, it would take this same HW player 66 or so LW kills to achieve that same next rank. Likewise, if a LW vs LW took 30 kills to advance to the next rank, then it would only take 7.5 HW Kills to achieve the next Rank. We all know how likely it is for a LW Class to kill a HW Class in a 1v1.

Ganking, Helpers, Stacked numbers explained

This is where any system thought up gets complicated. But let’s try and make it easy shall we?

Unfair numbers

So we have all been there, we start off a 1v1 fight, its going our way, we can almost taste victory, BAM, you are taunted off, Ice Bolted to the face, assassinated, or your victim gets some very unwelcomed heals , all from some 2^nd party player intent on disrupting your kill. Who gets credit and how much? Well, how about this.

If above 50% health any additional involvement from another player (grouped or ungrouped) reduced the reward of the victor by 50% for each additional involved player. This reduction is calculated AFTER Solo class reward numbers have been established.

So back to our HW and LW example, we already know the HW has a .25 reward coming if he/she wins, and that LW player has a 2.25 reward coming if he/she wins. If a nearby wizard puts in a pot shot in on either player and that player is below 50% before the wizard hits, the wizard gets no credit and the winner gets half of their original reward. If two players were standing near and both got a shot in, it would be half of a half, so the .25 reward would turn into .0625 and the 2.25 would turn into .5625.

Killque · 05-07-2009, 01:08 PM

Group vs Group

This same theory in the above description applies with one twist, stacked groups.

Group 1: Bezerker, Warden, Mystic, Warlock, Troubador, Coercer

Group2: Necromancer, Assassin, Dirge, Swashbuckler, Wizard, Brigand

Group 1 has a much better chance at beating group 2. Taunts, control, heals will dominate that fight.

Sure if group1 got sloppy they might lose one person, but it is not likely, but if they do group 2 should be rewarded for its efforts.

How is this handled? Here is a possible suggestion:

Group Class: Total of grouped members Solo class Points + Bonus.

Standard Bonus: 10 Points per classification

· Warrior

· Crusader

· Brawler

· Bard

· Predator

· Rogue

· Druid

· Cleric

· Shaman

· Sorcerer

· Summoner

· Enchanter

Tier 2 Group Bonus: 20

· Fighter + Priest

Tier 3 Group Bonus: 30

· Fighter + Priest + Mage or Scout

Tier 4 Group Bonus: 40

· Fighter + Priest + Mage + Scout

Group - Classifications

· Heavy Weight (HW)

o 67-100+ Points

· Medium Weight (MW)

o 34-66 Points

· Light Weight(LW)

o 0-33 Points

So based solely on group make up and not taking into account Group1’s Solo Class makeup, it has 100 points and would be considered Heavy Weight.

Group 2 is also not taking into account Solo Class makeup is a Medium weight at 50 Points.

Raid Class: The total of all Group Class Points + Solo Class Points

· Heavy Weight (HW)

o 301-400+ Points

· Medium Weight (MW)

o 151-300 Points

· Light Weight(LW)

o 0-150 Points

Zacarus · 05-07-2009, 05:51 PM

Desna_Venekor wrote:

come up with a basic structure of a pvp system that fulfills the following requirements...

Easy. The pvp ruleset as it was two years ago, along with the no-zerge-while-group-alive change.

Spyderbite · 05-07-2009, 05:58 PM

Desna_Venekor wrote:

This is not to think of a way to make the pvp suit your own personal needs or wants

Heh.. your post failed there. Because most people on PvP servers could care less about anything except their own personal needs or wants. Hell.. that could apply to PvE too.. Lets just say gaming in general.

Good luck with it though.

Desna · 05-08-2009, 10:08 AM

Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:

Desna_Venekor wrote:
This is not to think of a way to make the pvp suit your own personal needs or wants
Heh.. your post failed there. Because most people on PvP servers could care less about anything except their own personal needs or wants. Hell.. that could apply to PvE too.. Lets just say gaming in general.
Good luck with it though.

Spider, I merely stated the goal set forth by SOE to its dev team...every time they make a game the rulesets may be unbalanced, but it isn't just to make one class grossly overpowered to to heavily favor one class over another ( and whoever's tempted, keep your onyx/dev immunty/whatever flames out of here). So really my statement isn't the one "failing", it's the people who ignore it and continue with the "make my class godpowered" post that failed.

Desna · 05-08-2009, 10:16 AM

Kill, I like the idea of it, though I can see how it really punishes those on the HW range (since once you're at the top of the spectrum it would take more work to do anything at all)....and as for your 50% rule for no credit rule on group vs solos, what would you do about healers? Since they can heal back up to full, but full health doesn't mean much on a healer vs a nonhealing class...or the other way around. A healer vs healer fights can take forever, so say a healer fights another healer for a half hour, runs the other healer out of power but still at full health. A wizzy comes around and boom, oneshots the lower healer. Does the wizzy get credit and the winning healer get full credit, or half since even though he did all the work someone butted in and took them down immedeately?

Killque · 05-14-2009, 05:46 PM

Desna_Venekor wrote:

Kill, I like the idea of it, though I can see how it really punishes those on the HW range (since once you're at the top of the spectrum it would take more work to do anything at all)....and as for your 50% rule for no credit rule on group vs solos, what would you do about healers? Since they can heal back up to full, but full health doesn't mean much on a healer vs a nonhealing class...or the other way around. A healer vs healer fights can take forever, so say a healer fights another healer for a half hour, runs the other healer out of power but still at full health. A wizzy comes around and boom, oneshots the lower healer. Does the wizzy get credit and the winning healer get full credit, or half since even though he did all the work someone butted in and took them down immedeately?

My idea holds water all around. If you are below 50% when attacked no credit is issued, if you heal above 50% during the fight, you are an update, this is no different than it is now. I do not expect that to change.

HW groups should not get as much credit for killing easier to kill groups. Its the whole risk vs reward proverb. I can assure you as time goes on there will be plenty of groups that would fall in the HW category, so the comment that you would have a few people struggling is really a non issue.

I have not been able to poke any holes in this idea, can anyone else?

05-04-2009, 08:03 AM	#1
Desna Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Veeshans Fury Rank: Vegeta Cheerleading squad -Recruit Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 256	There are so many threads on what everyone thinks the pvp system should be like, what SOE should change, how little/more the titles mean now vs pre-GU 51 (or ever)... So I offer a challenge. This is not to think of a way to make the pvp suit your own personal needs or wants, but the community as a whole...can you come up with a basic structure of a pvp system that fulfills the following requirements: Makes use of titles to reflect both skill in pvp and active participation Encourages actual combat of pvp, whether it be group or solo, instead of running or title-hugging Introduces the rush of risk without making the loss so great people avoid pvp for fear of loss (sort of an add on to the above) Does not specifically favor one class archetype over the others (we all know scouts have track and thus have an edge. it's part of their survivability, move on. The challenge is to work around this ability and current abilities without nerfing a class or removing any player's current ability sets.) Makes the current playerbase feel fulfilled in their commitment of time with some reward, whether it be title, plat, gear, etc. Does not change the game significantly enough to alienate the current playerbase. Again, this isn't a wishlist of things you want nerfed or complaints about the current system, or what you personally would like to see in your own custom-fit "pwn all" dreamworld. This is a challenge to think like a developer; to keep as many of your customers happy without scrapping the existing game completely or losing the feel of the current gameplay. Who knows, we know the devs and such read these boards, or at least have underlings to do it for them...one of your ideas might just spark something great. Edited because i r spell gud.

05-07-2009, 10:13 AM	#4
Silverzx Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 282	1000Words wrote: I tried PVP again.. not nearly as exciting as before now because you don't lose infamy on death. Whatevs. i know what you mean. the system before was by no means perfect but at least you had something to lose....

05-07-2009, 05:51 PM	#9
Zacarus Server: Nagafen Guild: Elusive Rank: Guild Leader Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 681	Desna_Venekor wrote: come up with a basic structure of a pvp system that fulfills the following requirements... Easy. The pvp ruleset as it was two years ago, along with the no-zerge-while-group-alive change.

05-07-2009, 05:58 PM	#10
Spyderbite Server: Venekor Guild: Dark Vengeance Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 4,262	Desna_Venekor wrote: This is not to think of a way to make the pvp suit your own personal needs or wants Heh.. your post failed there. Because most people on PvP servers could care less about anything except their own personal needs or wants. Hell.. that could apply to PvE too.. Lets just say gaming in general. Good luck with it though.

05-08-2009, 10:08 AM	#11
Desna Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Veeshans Fury Rank: Vegeta Cheerleading squad -Recruit Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 256	Spyderbite@Venekor wrote: Desna_Venekor wrote: This is not to think of a way to make the pvp suit your own personal needs or wants Heh.. your post failed there. Because most people on PvP servers could care less about anything except their own personal needs or wants. Hell.. that could apply to PvE too.. Lets just say gaming in general. Good luck with it though. Spider, I merely stated the goal set forth by SOE to its dev team...every time they make a game the rulesets may be unbalanced, but it isn't just to make one class grossly overpowered to to heavily favor one class over another ( and whoever's tempted, keep your onyx/dev immunty/whatever flames out of here). So really my statement isn't the one "failing", it's the people who ignore it and continue with the "make my class godpowered" post that failed.

05-04-2009, 05:02 PM	#2
Chulanowa Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 70	Titles - There's really no real way to make title reflect skill. The game, by its very nature, rewards unskilled playing just as much as it rewards skilled. Contrary to a lot of people's assertions, EQ2 is 90% gear, 8% random number generation, and 2% knowing what the heck you're doing. The depth of "skill" in PvP is having the patience (or plat) to get at least mastercrafted and Adept III spells. Hoewever, measuring participation is much easier. Have a set of suffix titles based off how many encounters you engage in, with "fame" gained by how much damage you deal or heal (whichever is highest). It encourages engagement and fighting, and since it's a different title system, we can still tell who it is that's just tossing a single spell into a fight then running. Running - In addition to the idea of Suffix titles, something needs to be done about runspeed. The way it works now is that whoever turns tail and runs first has a permanant head start, unless their opponent can snare, or sprints. I suppose this is actually a sort of call for a nerf, but if we want to make runnign a less attractive option, that option needs to not be quite do effective. My suggestion is, first, treat sprint as other "runspeed" buffs when in PvP combat - that is, it doesn't work. Another suggestion, in the original EverQuest, your speed was reduced based on how much damage you had taken (really, let's see anyone run that fast after having the tar beaten out of them) Something like this could be added to PvP combat fairly easily, I imagine. Risk vs. Reward - If you have a clue what you're doing, there's just not much risk in PvP. But for what risk there is, there needs to be rewards. Heightened fame gains when victorious against multiple opponents, or against those 10+ levels above you would be one such idea. Another is to give players random chances to drop exquisite chests of the appropriate level and zone, based on the difficulty (almost no chance for a solo untitled green, better chance for a level 80 Overlord in a raid). Similarly, getting reduced fame for steamrolling others - such as the famous DLW twenty-man raids against two Q's - would be an option.

05-04-2009, 05:14 PM	#3
1000Words Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 160	I tried PVP again.. not nearly as exciting as before now because you don't lose infamy on death. Whatevs.

05-07-2009, 10:35 AM	#5
Dh Server: Nagafen Guild: Champions of Sebilis Rank: Member General Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 609	I would say is more like: 50% Gear30% Random Number Generation20% Knowing what to do

05-07-2009, 11:14 AM	#6
Killque Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,112	As we know, there are several factors that play into a win in the pvp world. And I am listing these in no particular order, class, spell quality, gear, level and player experience. I will never abandon skill and experience as a large factor but having been on both sides of the “gear“ fence, I feel that gear combined with spell quality is the number one thing that wins PvP fights. Now yes, if you put someone who has never played video games in front of a fully fabled character and pit them against a very experienced treasured or legendary player with ap3’s sure we all know the outcome, but please understand where I am going with this. A possible solution: Terms Defined · Equipment Slots – Any equipment slot designated for gear. Food and ammo slots are not included. · Points –A number given to a piece of gear or a scribed spell that denotes it’s quality. This number directly affects a player’s “Solo class” · Rank – A title given to a player to denote their Infamy- Ie. Hunter, Slayer etc. · Fame – An increase or decrease in Rank · Solo Class – A defined group to which a player belongs based on the gear they are wearing and the quality of the spells they use. o Heavy weight (HW) o Medium Weight (MW) o Light Weight(LW) · Group Class – A defined classification to which a group belongs based on its members Solo class and the overall group makeup. · Raid Class – A defined classification to which a raid belongs based on its members Solo class and the its combined Group Class PvP Reward Balance (Titles, Writ updates etc) Solo Class 21 Rated Equipment Slots + # of Spells at their current tier. Point system defined: Gear: Points possible: 63 (more with Mythicals) · Mythical: 5 · Fabled: 3 · Legendary: 2 · Treasured: 1 Spells in Players current Tier: Points possible: 90-99 (varies depending on class) · Master2: 5 · Master: 3 · Adept 1-3: 2 · Apprentice 1-4: 1 Solo Class - Classifications · Heavy Weight (HW) o 101-150+ Points · Medium Weight (MW) o 51-100 Points · Light Weight(LW) o 0-50 Points

05-07-2009, 01:07 PM	#7
Killque Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,112	How does this affect PvP play and its various rewards? The easiest to define are 1v1 fights so I will start there. LW vs HW In this scenario, a freshly leveled, level 80 casual player with treasured gear and apprentice 1’s would stand little if any chance against a veteran Fabled and Mastered level 80 raider. And of course, this should in fact be the case; I think we can all agree on that. What I think we all also would agree on, is that the veteran player should not receive a full reward if any for killing this player. It is simply too easy. Be it writ update, fame, coin etc. 1. Utilize the point system to determine involved parties Solo classes, and then effectively reduce or increase the reward accordingly. a. LW kills HW – 2.25x the reward (50% increase for each class above) b. HW kills LW - .25 Reward (50% decrease for each class below) So as you can see with this system if it took 30 HW vs HW wins to increase your fame level to the next Rank, it would take this same HW player 66 or so LW kills to achieve that same next rank. Likewise, if a LW vs LW took 30 kills to advance to the next rank, then it would only take 7.5 HW Kills to achieve the next Rank. We all know how likely it is for a LW Class to kill a HW Class in a 1v1. Ganking, Helpers, Stacked numbers explained This is where any system thought up gets complicated. But let’s try and make it easy shall we? Unfair numbers So we have all been there, we start off a 1v1 fight, its going our way, we can almost taste victory, BAM, you are taunted off, Ice Bolted to the face, assassinated, or your victim gets some very unwelcomed heals , all from some 2^nd party player intent on disrupting your kill. Who gets credit and how much? Well, how about this. If above 50% health any additional involvement from another player (grouped or ungrouped) reduced the reward of the victor by 50% for each additional involved player. This reduction is calculated AFTER Solo class reward numbers have been established. So back to our HW and LW example, we already know the HW has a .25 reward coming if he/she wins, and that LW player has a 2.25 reward coming if he/she wins. If a nearby wizard puts in a pot shot in on either player and that player is below 50% before the wizard hits, the wizard gets no credit and the winner gets half of their original reward. If two players were standing near and both got a shot in, it would be half of a half, so the .25 reward would turn into .0625 and the 2.25 would turn into .5625.

05-07-2009, 01:08 PM	#8
Killque Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,112	Group vs Group This same theory in the above description applies with one twist, stacked groups. Group 1: Bezerker, Warden, Mystic, Warlock, Troubador, Coercer Group2: Necromancer, Assassin, Dirge, Swashbuckler, Wizard, Brigand Group 1 has a much better chance at beating group 2. Taunts, control, heals will dominate that fight. Sure if group1 got sloppy they might lose one person, but it is not likely, but if they do group 2 should be rewarded for its efforts. How is this handled? Here is a possible suggestion: Group Class: Total of grouped members Solo class Points + Bonus. Standard Bonus: 10 Points per classification · Warrior · Crusader · Brawler · Bard · Predator · Rogue · Druid · Cleric · Shaman · Sorcerer · Summoner · Enchanter Tier 2 Group Bonus: 20 · Fighter + Priest Tier 3 Group Bonus: 30 · Fighter + Priest + Mage or Scout Tier 4 Group Bonus: 40 · Fighter + Priest + Mage + Scout Group - Classifications · Heavy Weight (HW) o 67-100+ Points · Medium Weight (MW) o 34-66 Points · Light Weight(LW) o 0-33 Points So based solely on group make up and not taking into account Group1’s Solo Class makeup, it has 100 points and would be considered Heavy Weight. Group 2 is also not taking into account Solo Class makeup is a Medium weight at 50 Points. Raid Class: The total of all Group Class Points + Solo Class Points · Heavy Weight (HW) o 301-400+ Points · Medium Weight (MW) o 151-300 Points · Light Weight(LW) o 0-150 Points

05-08-2009, 10:16 AM	#12
Desna Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Veeshans Fury Rank: Vegeta Cheerleading squad -Recruit Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 256	Kill, I like the idea of it, though I can see how it really punishes those on the HW range (since once you're at the top of the spectrum it would take more work to do anything at all)....and as for your 50% rule for no credit rule on group vs solos, what would you do about healers? Since they can heal back up to full, but full health doesn't mean much on a healer vs a nonhealing class...or the other way around. A healer vs healer fights can take forever, so say a healer fights another healer for a half hour, runs the other healer out of power but still at full health. A wizzy comes around and boom, oneshots the lower healer. Does the wizzy get credit and the winning healer get full credit, or half since even though he did all the work someone butted in and took them down immedeately?

05-14-2009, 05:46 PM	#13
Killque Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,112	Desna_Venekor wrote: Kill, I like the idea of it, though I can see how it really punishes those on the HW range (since once you're at the top of the spectrum it would take more work to do anything at all)....and as for your 50% rule for no credit rule on group vs solos, what would you do about healers? Since they can heal back up to full, but full health doesn't mean much on a healer vs a nonhealing class...or the other way around. A healer vs healer fights can take forever, so say a healer fights another healer for a half hour, runs the other healer out of power but still at full health. A wizzy comes around and boom, oneshots the lower healer. Does the wizzy get credit and the winning healer get full credit, or half since even though he did all the work someone butted in and took them down immedeately? My idea holds water all around. If you are below 50% when attacked no credit is issued, if you heal above 50% during the fight, you are an update, this is no different than it is now. I do not expect that to change. HW groups should not get as much credit for killing easier to kill groups. Its the whole risk vs reward proverb. I can assure you as time goes on there will be plenty of groups that would fall in the HW category, so the comment that you would have a few people struggling is really a non issue. I have not been able to poke any holes in this idea, can anyone else?