Racial Related AA Trees

[TheSpin]

Short Disclaimer:   I don't think that adding new AA lines for each race is a good idea, but I do think that incorporating the current racials into a new AA tree would be great.

I think it should be 'possible' for every race to obtain any given racial possessed by another race, but I definately don't want the flavor to be taken out of the current Racials.  I have an idea that would include a New AA tree that contains all of the racials currently possessed by the various races of Norrath.  Upon creation certain skills on this AA tree would already be given to your character depending on race, but all races can progress down the AA tree to obtain abilities not normally possessed by their race.  Obviously current racials would have to be carefully balanced so that each race would recieve an equal benefit upon creation.

Let me try to explain by an example.

Imagine an AA tree that contains small bonuses to weapon skils, crits, spell casitng speed, or any number of abilities currently available to characters from their racial heritage.  Maybe later on down the tree would be things like self wards, pacify, or other racials unique to only a few classes.

Now if I roll a Erudite, I would recieve Free points in this AA tree that would include +disruption skill, +5% casting speed, a small self ward... all of the things currently covered by the racial traditions.

One last thought...  All of the races have either a temp buff (dark elf/arasai)  or some kind of attack.  I don't think that characters should have access to each attack at the same time.  Either allowing characters to access all attacks, but forcing them to share the same cooldown, or allowing each character access to only one attack would be a more appropriate way to address this particular aspect.

So what's the point?

For one... it allows a pretty simplistic new way to advance your character.  Everyone loves horizontal advancement as much as vertical enhancement.  Additionally, it makes it possible with enough extra effort for any class/race combination to be 100% as effective as any other class/race.   Finally, some new AA could be introduced that aren't currently available to any races if deemed necessary.

NOTE:  I'm suggesting this be put in as a form of alternate advancement.  I'm not saying whether or not the method for that advancement should be with the current Achievement Point mechanism.  I am just throwing an idea out there for others to view/comment.

[Yimway]

Providing points are unlocked the same way they currently are, I think this is pragmatic to providing ballance to the racial abilities.

[TheSpin]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Providing points are unlocked the same way they currently are, I think this is pragmatic to providing ballance to the racial abilities.

Yeah, I'm not trying to suggest how the whole thing should unfold.  Definately makes sense that they shouldn't all be available at level 1 or 10.

I was thinking of possibly tying in the tree directly with Adventure levels/experience and maybe bringing back a slider similar to in EQ1.

[Sharakari]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Providing points are unlocked the same way they currently are, I think this is pragmatic to providing ballance to the racial abilities.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Having said that, I had no idea what my racial abilities were when I picked a Kerran.  It just looked cool, so I picked it.  But to be honest, I pay such little attention to racial abilities, I don't even know what advantage another race has over me or vice versa because A) I didn't research every race and B) even if I wanted to research every race, I don't think there is anywhere to find out what all the racial abilities are! 

[Kordran]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

[Blackluck2]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

I don't think there is anywhere to find out what all the racial abilities are!

http://home.comcast.net/~eq2gamedata/main.html

[Sharakari]

Blackluck2 wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

I don't think there is anywhere to find out what all the racial abilities are!

http://home.comcast.net/~eq2gamedata/main.html

LOL... thanks!  Wish I had that link when I was picking my race 3 years ago!   Stupid Kerran!

[Yimway]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

LOL... thanks!  Wish I had that link when I was picking my race 3 years ago!   Stupid Kerran!

The issue is, 3 years ago, racials were not the same as they are on that link.  The link represents as they are today.  The very fact that racials changed after you decided on one put you in the position of being locked into a decision point you might not have made had you been given all the data.

A racial specialization tree that allows all options as the OP suggested remedies some of that artificial penalty you were given without choice.  Another option as stated in an alternate thread is to allow a racial change potion.  In truth, I'm happy with either, providing players are allowed to make an informed decision rather than locking them into something after the fact.

[liveja]

Kordran wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

This is because there are no real penalties to being a Dark Elf. Supposedly being hated world-wide isn't much of an issue, & there isn't anything else.

Yes, Humans also have special abilities, just as any other race does. But the abilities of Humans don't compare well -- especially for Scouts -- to those of Dark Elves.

Some people might reasonably argue that Dark Elves are magikal & Humans aren't, which makes sense, & that's how it is in D&D & other such old skool games. OTOH, those games also balance out Dark Elf abilities with penalties that can be nasty at times -- like, f'r instance, combat penalties in daylight, & an overall XP penalty.

I really wish that one's race were far more important to overall gameplay than it is. But I also understand that probably a lot of people don't want that kind of old skool stuff  so I do my best to enjoy EQ2 while waiting for someone to finally create the MMORPG I really want.

[TheSpin]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

LOL... thanks!  Wish I had that link when I was picking my race 3 years ago!   Stupid Kerran!

The issue is, 3 years ago, racials were not the same as they are on that link.  The link represents as they are today.  The very fact that racials changed after you decided on one put you in the position of being locked into a decision point you might not have made had you been given all the data.

A racial specialization tree that allows all options as the OP suggested remedies some of that artificial penalty you were given without choice.  Another option as stated in an alternate thread is to allow a racial change potion.  In truth, I'm happy with either, providing players are allowed to make an informed decision rather than locking them into something after the fact.

I guess if the Devs decide to address this issue the question is.. Do they want to make more money off the potions, or do we want to add the AA tree as a feature to help sales in an expansion.

Perhaps adding to the game by way of AA tree may be simpler than rebuilding programming that ties your race into your original created character.  I don't really know

[Yimway]

TheSpin wrote:

I guess if the Devs decide to address this issue the question is.. Do they want to make more money off the potions, or do we want to add the AA tree as a feature to help sales in an expansion.

Perhaps adding to the game by way of AA tree may be simpler than rebuilding programming that ties your race into your original created character.  I don't really know

Aaaaaahhh!

Reading that I realized what the hangup is.

Your race is just a flag in a database that gives you the racial options on character traits screen.

However your characters MODEL isn't flagged off of your race, its just a model ID.   For example with some creative editing, it is possible to make a human with a troll modem, and other combinations.  Those 'human' trolls have human racial abilities, and are humans in every way but the model.

So a racial reset requires rebuilding and resetting all character models, etc.  So you'd have to re-enter the character creater with a new racial change option.  A bit more complcated than just a flag in a database, but certainly not rocket surgery.

[TheSpin]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Providing points are unlocked the same way they currently are, I think this is pragmatic to providing ballance to the racial abilities.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Having said that, I had no idea what my racial abilities were when I picked a Kerran.  It just looked cool, so I picked it.  But to be honest, I pay such little attention to racial abilities, I don't even know what advantage another race has over me or vice versa because A) I didn't research every race and B) even if I wanted to research every race, I don't think there is anywhere to find out what all the racial abilities are! 

What I am trying to suggest is a way to keep the uniqueness of the races, but allow races to overcome them with hard work.  It is a hard FACT that many end game players feel cheated because they chose a race before the racials were announced.  I personally knew a swashbuckler in a high end raiding guild that was actually bringing up a replacement just so that he could have different racials.

I have in mind a couple of specific suggestions about how to implement this in a way that makes sense, but I'm not a Developer so I'm just trying to put out the idea and trust that the Devs are capable of implementing it well.  (of course I'd be happy to share more specifics if I thought it would help )

[Rijacki]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

LOL... thanks!  Wish I had that link when I was picking my race 3 years ago!   Stupid Kerran!

The issue is, 3 years ago, racials were not the same as they are on that link.  The link represents as they are today.  The very fact that racials changed after you decided on one put you in the position of being locked into a decision point you might not have made had you been given all the data.

A racial specialization tree that allows all options as the OP suggested remedies some of that artificial penalty you were given without choice.  Another option as stated in an alternate thread is to allow a racial change potion.  In truth, I'm happy with either, providing players are allowed to make an informed decision rather than locking them into something after the fact.

I actually do wish they'd give a racials choice which is the racial (same or another name) of another race. Then the actual usefulness of the covetted racials would be seen by those who current are looking at the green grass on the other side of the fence.

The difference with one of the "OP" abilities is significantly more marginal than those who covet it try to make it seem.

[TheSpin]

Rijacki wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

LOL... thanks!  Wish I had that link when I was picking my race 3 years ago!   Stupid Kerran!

The issue is, 3 years ago, racials were not the same as they are on that link.  The link represents as they are today.  The very fact that racials changed after you decided on one put you in the position of being locked into a decision point you might not have made had you been given all the data.

A racial specialization tree that allows all options as the OP suggested remedies some of that artificial penalty you were given without choice.  Another option as stated in an alternate thread is to allow a racial change potion.  In truth, I'm happy with either, providing players are allowed to make an informed decision rather than locking them into something after the fact.

I actually do wish they'd give a racials choice which is the racial (same or another name) of another race. Then the actual usefulness of the covetted racials would be seen by those who current are looking at the green grass on the other side of the fence.

The difference with one of the "OP" abilities is significantly more marginal than those who covet it try to make it seem.

I agree that a single difference is marginal.  Combined though, they add up to some pretty signifigant changes.

Some races have 5% runspeed as a racial while others have to spend 5 AA points to get that... plus it stacks.  Same with stealth movment increase, it's pretty major.  I would not want to play a halfling rogue simply because of this one racial.  I also find things like slow fall, or the 36 second run speed boost to be pretty major.  From a dps aspect the dark elf racial is HUGE for many players.  Someone on the bazaar made a post that he could sell his character for quite a bit more money simply for being a dark elf instead of a gnome.

I love the flavor added with the racials and I would not want to see that flavor removed, but I put a lot of thought into the racials when making a new character, and I wish I could just pick the one that I wanted and know that eventually I can make it as effective as any other race.  Even if it's not until level 80 and some extra effort beyond.

[NicolasKL]

Rijacki wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

LOL... thanks!  Wish I had that link when I was picking my race 3 years ago!   Stupid Kerran!

The issue is, 3 years ago, racials were not the same as they are on that link.  The link represents as they are today.  The very fact that racials changed after you decided on one put you in the position of being locked into a decision point you might not have made had you been given all the data.

A racial specialization tree that allows all options as the OP suggested remedies some of that artificial penalty you were given without choice.  Another option as stated in an alternate thread is to allow a racial change potion.  In truth, I'm happy with either, providing players are allowed to make an informed decision rather than locking them into something after the fact.

I actually do wish they'd give a racials choice which is the racial (same or another name) of another race. Then the actual usefulness of the covetted racials would be seen by those who current are looking at the green grass on the other side of the fence.

The difference with one of the "OP" abilities is significantly more marginal than those who covet it try to make it seem.

People (including myself) pay 1p or more per raid to get the benefit of just ONE of the racial traits that some classes have innately (increased MC).  Is that enormous?  No.  Is it significant, ie, worth it?  A lot of people apparently think so, otherwise things like whetstones and tactical pots wouldn't ever sell.

The same difference when applied to gear can be the difference between treasured and fabled.  Again, i'd call that significant.

There are really two problems here, IMO.  One is that a lot of people chose their class before these existed, and those people essentially were given no choice.  That sucks.  Two, classes that have especially favorable traits are common as cat dirt, while those that don't are rarely seen.  I don't think that's a particularly positive thing either.  I'm in favor of anything that would eliminate these two problems.

[Lethe5683]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Providing points are unlocked the same way they currently are, I think this is pragmatic to providing ballance to the racial abilities.

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

I can't comprehend why people keep saying this.  Who want's to be unique if all it means is being worse than everyone else?  Balanced != the same.  Races can have traits that give them an advantage for a specific class and have that different for each race yet still be balanced.  Yet the way they are currently some get huge bonuses for entire archetypes while others get absolutly nothing of use!

[Lethe5683]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

I really wish that one's race were far more important to overall gameplay than it is. But I also understand that probably a lot of people don't want that kind of old skool stuff  so I do my best to enjoy EQ2 while waiting for someone to finally create the MMORPG I really want.

I know exactly what you mean.  I would give anything for a MMO with true race definition that made real but sensible differences.  My only issue is when certain races have clear advantages with no disadvantages whatsoever making them completly OP.

[Sharakari]

Well after reading everyones posts and ideas, I would have to say that I would prefer the "tree" rather than a potion.  Sharakari has been Kerran for over 3 years and while it would be great to have some of the other racial abilities/traits, I can't imagine playing him as another race (i.e. using a potion).  Sounds like you guys have some good idea.  If this question is not in the "Dev Question Thread", I would put it in there and put a link to this discussion with it.

[TheSpin]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Well after reading everyones posts and ideas, I would have to say that I would prefer the "tree" rather than a potion.  Sharakari has been Kerran for over 3 years and while it would be great to have some of the other racial abilities/traits, I can't imagine playing him as another race (i.e. using a potion).  Sounds like you guys have some good idea.  If this question is not in the "Dev Question Thread", I would put it in there and put a link to this discussion with it.

Not a bad idea... I think I already used up my Dev Question for this month though.  So I can't do it myself as the OP.

I do like the tree better because even if I like some racials, there are races I personally would never play.  Plus everyone likes the current Achievement Point system and this could either be yet another way to expand on it, or perhaps add a new way of obtaining alternate advancement, such as an exp slider.  I am really thinkin a slider would be great because level locking has become fairly popular, and this would allow that effort to be rewarded.

[liveja]

Rijacki wrote:

The difference with one of the "OP" abilities is significantly more marginal than those who covet it try to make it seem.

Combining Hover & increased run speed while stealthed has proved AMAZINGLY useful for my Dark Elf Troubie, & I didn't even have to choose those abilities.

As I've said before, it's not any given ability, in & of itself. It's the "combo package" that makes the cake so tasty. Dark Elves have an awesome package of abilities that work very nicely in synergy with each other, & serve especially well for Scout classes. By contrast, the "package" of Human abilities isn't really a package; it's more a collection of loose ends that amount to an ill-suited mish-mash.

Again, some might say this makes sense from a lore/RP perspective, because Dark Elves are magikal, & Humans are not. Supposedly, the very diverse nature of Humans is supposed to be an "advantage", but in a game where all races can be all classes & none of them have any real penalties, that "human diversity" quickly loses its appeal.

[TheSpin]

Lethe5683 wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

I really wish that one's race were far more important to overall gameplay than it is. But I also understand that probably a lot of people don't want that kind of old skool stuff  so I do my best to enjoy EQ2 while waiting for someone to finally create the MMORPG I really want.

I know exactly what you mean.  I would give anything for a MMO with true race definition that made real but sensible differences.  My only issue is when certain races have clear advantages with no disadvantages whatsoever making them completly OP.

I think that the real issue is that the racial changes currently in place didn't go in until after many players had created their character.  Many players would have chosen a different race if they had known about these racials in advance.

I think if they made these trees that I'm suggesting work like the oldschool EQ1 AA it would be another cool nostalgic addition to the game.  I'd much rather swap an XP bar over to an advancement tree than lock it completely, and at end game the AA gain from combat XP is so small it'd be nice if there was something else to do with it.

[Nero]

In Ultima Online, there is either Human to Elf Quest or Elf to Human Quest.That is to say, a kind of reincarnation.

But I prefer the "tree" to a potion or a quest.

[Calris]

Kordran wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

Why's it matter? Worry about what you're playing, not what everyone else is playing. Play what you want to play, let others play what they want to play. There's nothing wrong with certain races being better at certain classes than others.

[erin]

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

Why's it matter? Worry about what you're playing, not what everyone else is playing. Play what you want to play, let others play what they want to play. There's nothing wrong with certain races being better at certain classes than others.

There is when we were told up front that race doesn't matter.  Well now it does.

[Calris]

erin wrote:

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

Why's it matter? Worry about what you're playing, not what everyone else is playing. Play what you want to play, let others play what they want to play. There's nothing wrong with certain races being better at certain classes than others.

There is when we were told up front that race doesn't matter.

Where?

[Illmarr]

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

erin wrote:

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced?  Isn't that the point of picking a race?  to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

Why's it matter? Worry about what you're playing, not what everyone else is playing. Play what you want to play, let others play what they want to play. There's nothing wrong with certain races being better at certain classes than others.

There is when we were told up front that race doesn't matter.

Where?

Back at launch, otherwise why on Earth or Norrath would I have made a Gnome Guardian aside from the absurdity of it?

[Lleren]

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:

Back at launch, otherwise why on Earth or Norrath would I have made a Gnome Guardian aside from the absurdity of it?

Oh, perhaps because you liked Gnomes and wanted to be a rarer race/class combination. 

Most races have a long gaming history before EQ, including racial loyalty, for some of us.

[Chanaluss]

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

erin wrote:

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Kordran wrote:

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just playing Devil's Advocate here but WHY do racial abilites need to be balanced? Isn't that the point of picking a race? to be unique?

Largely because best race/class combinations just lead to a kind of homogenization of the playerbase... it ends up making things less unique, not moreso. Dark Elves are the big culprit here, in my opinion.

Why's it matter? Worry about what you're playing, not what everyone else is playing. Play what you want to play, let others play what they want to play. There's nothing wrong with certain races being better at certain classes than others.

There is when we were told up front that race doesn't matter.

Where?

Back at launch, otherwise why on Earth or Norrath would I have made a Gnome Guardian aside from the absurdity of it?

remember when you didnt start out as your final class? or how there were a truckload of subcombines for old tradeskills? or how there were no PvP servers? yeah... MMOs are evolving games, and "they said X at launch" doesnt really hold water anymore

[Calris]

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Where?

Back at launch, otherwise why on Earth or Norrath would I have made a Gnome Guardian aside from the absurdity of it?

In case you haven't noticed, this is practically a completely different game from what it was back at launch. But, race did matter even back at launch. Not as much as it does now, but even back then, a troll wasn't a really good choice for a Wizard.

[Noaani]

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

In case you haven't noticed, this is practically a completely different game from what it was back at launch. But, race did matter even back at launch. Not as much as it does now, but even back then, a troll wasn't a really good choice for a Wizard.

Even though I'm not at all against the idea of makig the races more equal at each class, this post is very true.

Before launch (aka, beta) they said that race doesn't matter, at launch they said that any race can be any class. Since this is an MMO, and MMOs evolve and change by their very nature, the smart thing to do as the game was launching was to at least take racial background into consideration when making a new toon.

Yes, you could make a gnome guardian, but why would you? As is freely admitted by a player with a gnome guardian as a main, it is absurd, and was so at launch. The thing to do would have been to understand that such an absurdity may well be corrected at some point later in the game.

As it happens, it was.