Some unique ideas for monks and eq2

sensie · 03-20-2009, 04:18 PM

We have talked and hashed out what the issues are for monks, and there is a current list that has been stickied which is very comprehensive. What I would like to try and discuss is some unique ideas for monks/brawlers that would once again define our class.

AA changes for the game.

Healers Start with priest line, go for 3 choices, one line enhances heals, one line enhances buffs/debuffs, one line enhances DPS, no new spells just ehance/making stronger current spells. This opens up new spells, in each line, and finally once new spells lines are opened up then unque class abilities depending o which line you went down.

Tanks choices would be enhance defense, enhance HP, Enhance DPS

Mages enhance DPS, enhance debuffs, enhance aggro control

Scouts enhance DPS, enhance debuffs, enhance aggro control

Monk unique abilities, Tsunami that is placed on non fighters, group/raid heal for 25 percent (reuse 15 minutes), temp mit buff for group raid (stuns caster and is caste aoe centered), 100 blows ( an auto attack (both hands) every second until power is gone and monks defense/mit is lowered while useing ability, reuseable every 10 minutes.

The AA changes will never happen, but trying to come up with some different ideas for monks.

BChizzle · 03-20-2009, 04:25 PM

sensie wrote:

Monk unique abilities, Tsunami that is placed on non fighters, group/raid heal for 25 percent (reuse 15 minutes), temp mit buff for group raid (stuns caster and is caste aoe centered), 100 blows ( an auto attack (both hands) every second until power is gone and monks defense/mit is lowered while useing ability, reuseable every 10 minutes.
The AA changes will never happen, but trying to come up with some different ideas for monks.

Tsunami on non fighters is near useless, when would a non fighter be getting melee'd? 25% heal is also useless healers can keep their groups up fine. Temp mit buff for a raid, well why not just roll with a paly if you need more raid mit? 100 blows dunno what you are reaching at here but we already auto attack with both hands every second.

sensie · 03-20-2009, 04:47 PM

BChizzle wrote:

sensie wrote:
Monk unique abilities, Tsunami that is placed on non fighters, group/raid heal for 25 percent (reuse 15 minutes), temp mit buff for group raid (stuns caster and is caste aoe centered), 100 blows ( an auto attack (both hands) every second until power is gone and monks defense/mit is lowered while useing ability, reuseable every 10 minutes.
The AA changes will never happen, but trying to come up with some different ideas for monks.
Tsunami on non fighters is near useless, when would a non fighter be getting melee'd? 25% heal is also useless healers can keep their groups up fine. Temp mit buff for a raid, well why not just roll with a paly if you need more raid mit? 100 blows dunno what you are reaching at here but we already auto attack with both hands every second.

Thanls for the feedback, but looking for some unique class defining abilities, mine maybe not the best, but throwing them out there, so lets start throwing ideas out there for the good or bad, instead of just shooting down ideas bring some forward.

BChizzle · 03-20-2009, 05:04 PM

Change combo to add an extra 1k attack for the next 10 attacks you do.

Make superior riposte also stoneskin so we can use it to stay in on melee aes.

Swap cranetwirl and craneflock in spots on the aa line, make cranetwirl proc 100% for 16 seconds make craneflock a 40% auto attack ae always on.

Elialethal · 03-22-2009, 11:00 PM

Personally, what I really want to see for monks is one unrepresented weapon: the Nunchaku. It's the iconic Bruce lee image that I want in the class, since monks are basically martial artists.

BChizzle · 03-23-2009, 01:51 AM

Elialethal@Oasis wrote:

Personally, what I really want to see for monks is one unrepresented weapon: the Nunchaku. It's the iconic Bruce lee image that I want in the class, since monks are basically martial artists.

I seriously hope you are kidding.

Achala · 03-23-2009, 04:28 PM

Monks are rarely desired as the primary tank, so maybe we should just give up on that role. A good idea for a class defining role for monks (and bruisers) would be someone who stands side by side with the main tank (a plate tank) but takes some of the blows for him and reduces the total amount of damage he takes.

One of the problems with this game is that while you can stack DPS (more DPSers = more damage) and you can stack healers (extra healers means you can heal more damage, faster). But two tanks don't absorb twice the damage of one tank. Maybe that should change. Make it so having additional fighters (particularly the less desired fighters, such as brawlers) will reduce the total amount of damage taken by the main tank.

I've noticed in most TSO zones people try to bring two healers. That's great for my healer alt. But why not make it practical to bring two fighters?

So maybe give brawlers a kind of buff (perhaps a nonexpiring one that uses concentration slots) that allows them, if standing within 5 feet of another fighter, to reduce the damage that the target of the buff takes. The target takes 55% of the damage and the brawler finds 55% directed at him. However, the brawler would get an avoidance roll on the portion of the damage that would go to them and with sufficiently high avoidance, this should effectively almost almost halve the total amount of damage taken.

Then, in theory, you could go into a difficult dungeon and people would either want a secondary backup healer (to increase the amount of heailng you can do) OR a brawler (to reduce the damage the plate tank will take).

Elialethal · 03-23-2009, 11:19 PM

Bchizzle, Yes I was kidding.

So what Achala is proposing is to improve intercede by making it take a concentration slot. I guess it's a nice idea on paper, but some problems I see with this idea is that brawlers, as a class, don't have either the HP or the mitigation to take even half the damage the MT would be taking. What with all the strikethroughs and nullifications to Avoidance that seem to be rampant, this kind of revamp would have to be accompanied by some sort of improvement to the ability of monks to take damage, or maybe even an improvement to the avoidance system. However, if the developers try this idea, they might scrap the avoidance buff, which I think was a nice buff to have.

I don't profess to know the game mechanics very well since I just started, but with all the information I have absorbed on the forums and from experience on other MMO systems, I think that if the Devs want the monks to be able to do all these things, they need to give us options. If we want to go DPS, we better be close to rogues in the department. If we want to tank, then at least put us a little below plate tanks. I personally like the way Ragnarok Online handled the Monk class... Monks were very versatile and competitive in any field that they wanted to compete in, but never the best at anything. As it is here, monks suck at everything and there's really no reason to play one.

So... what I'm thinking is that we should not try to stick the monks in some special category that gives monks a token role. I say that monks, depending on their skill build, stat build, and equips, can do anything and everything a little less efficiently than the other classes that are designed for a certain purpose.

For Instance, in RO, monks came in 3 distinct flavors: the Str/Agi Thrasher build, the Str/Int/Dex Spirit build, and the Agi/Vit/Int Tanking build. In any one of these builds, monks were as good, if not better, as Paladins/Lord Knights at tanking, as Assassin Crosses and Wizards at Damage dealing, and as Stalkers/Creators/blacksmiths at Soloing. Sure there was a lot of overlap in class abilities, but that was what Gravity envisioned for monks, and in the end the monks did well for themselves. I think that SOE should take a hint from Gravity and treat the monk class in the same way. Simply, there are too many classes to carve out a tiny niche for every single one of them, so don't try. Just make them a good substitute for any role in parties and leave it at that.

Turb · 03-26-2009, 09:27 PM

Well, monks already have their avoid buff that they can put on tanks for precisely this purpose, and with our avoid being higher in general (I was pushing 90% in def stance) we're a good choice for that. And we have altruism (same theme, in effect) and a (very) short range heal. Perhaps an extra spike damage mitigator for an ally would be useful, and a form of intercede might be nice for that, but it would take away from our own capabilities somwhere (what do we give up to get it?)

Wildfury77 · 03-27-2009, 05:31 AM

Achala wrote:

Monks are rarely desired as the primary tank, so maybe we should just give up on that role.

NO!!!! I'm really sorry but those of us that do MTank don't seem to have this issue. Monks are well respected Instance tanks on Nagafen. I generally find the most "anti-tank comments" come from brawlers who sound like they should have rolled a wizard.....

Just because several of you got confused and picked a Tank Class doesn't mean our main role should be nerfed!! A monk MT can handle all the TSO instances I've tried to MT so far (I Haven't tried Palace yet). We have the tools and CAN hold agro etc....

I'm not saying that SKs etc can't do the role more easily....but its not the vast gulf you scout-wannabies claim /peace

Tendain · 03-27-2009, 01:34 PM

Why not keep it simple... Make monks the way they are on eq1. Dps primary job and tanking just there incase tank dies and needs rez while fighting.

Wildfury77 · 03-27-2009, 02:00 PM

Tendain wrote:

Why not keep it simple... Make monks the way they are on eq1. Dps primary job and tanking just there incase tank dies and needs rez while fighting.

This isn't EQ1 --> when you picked your class did you read the class description? No ones saying you can't DPS but our primary role is as a tank/Hybrid not a pure DPSer.

I'm quite happy (as are many monks) MTing in TSO. And our guilds raid MA/OT is a monk....when the Guard falls its the Monk that saves the raid force....

I have no problem grouping with platetanks --> I find paladin heals help me MT and zerkers provide some nice DPS buffs SMILEY

Tendain · 03-27-2009, 02:45 PM

Grondak@Nagafen wrote:

Tendain wrote:
Why not keep it simple... Make monks the way they are on eq1. Dps primary job and tanking just there incase tank dies and needs rez while fighting.
This isn't EQ1 --> when you picked your class did you read the class description? No ones saying you can't DPS but our primary role is as a tank/Hybrid not a pure DPSer.
I'm quite happy (as are many monks) MTing in TSO. And our guilds raid MA/OT is a monk....when the Guard falls its the Monk that saves the raid force....
I have no problem grouping with platetanks --> I find paladin heals help me MT and zerkers provide some nice DPS buffs

That may be the case on your server but you have to realize that IS NOT the case on all servers. Right now on my servers unless you are already geared you really don't stand a chance on getting geared. Its always we want PLATE tanks and scout/caster dps or utility. Very seldom do monks or bruisers get to go anywhere.

03-20-2009, 04:18 PM	#1
sensie Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 106	We have talked and hashed out what the issues are for monks, and there is a current list that has been stickied which is very comprehensive. What I would like to try and discuss is some unique ideas for monks/brawlers that would once again define our class. AA changes for the game. Healers Start with priest line, go for 3 choices, one line enhances heals, one line enhances buffs/debuffs, one line enhances DPS, no new spells just ehance/making stronger current spells. This opens up new spells, in each line, and finally once new spells lines are opened up then unque class abilities depending o which line you went down. Tanks choices would be enhance defense, enhance HP, Enhance DPS Mages enhance DPS, enhance debuffs, enhance aggro control Scouts enhance DPS, enhance debuffs, enhance aggro control Monk unique abilities, Tsunami that is placed on non fighters, group/raid heal for 25 percent (reuse 15 minutes), temp mit buff for group raid (stuns caster and is caste aoe centered), 100 blows ( an auto attack (both hands) every second until power is gone and monks defense/mit is lowered while useing ability, reuseable every 10 minutes. The AA changes will never happen, but trying to come up with some different ideas for monks. __________________

03-20-2009, 04:25 PM	#2
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	sensie wrote: Monk unique abilities, Tsunami that is placed on non fighters, group/raid heal for 25 percent (reuse 15 minutes), temp mit buff for group raid (stuns caster and is caste aoe centered), 100 blows ( an auto attack (both hands) every second until power is gone and monks defense/mit is lowered while useing ability, reuseable every 10 minutes. The AA changes will never happen, but trying to come up with some different ideas for monks. Tsunami on non fighters is near useless, when would a non fighter be getting melee'd? 25% heal is also useless healers can keep their groups up fine. Temp mit buff for a raid, well why not just roll with a paly if you need more raid mit? 100 blows dunno what you are reaching at here but we already auto attack with both hands every second.

03-20-2009, 04:47 PM	#3
sensie Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 106	BChizzle wrote: sensie wrote: Monk unique abilities, Tsunami that is placed on non fighters, group/raid heal for 25 percent (reuse 15 minutes), temp mit buff for group raid (stuns caster and is caste aoe centered), 100 blows ( an auto attack (both hands) every second until power is gone and monks defense/mit is lowered while useing ability, reuseable every 10 minutes. The AA changes will never happen, but trying to come up with some different ideas for monks. Tsunami on non fighters is near useless, when would a non fighter be getting melee'd? 25% heal is also useless healers can keep their groups up fine. Temp mit buff for a raid, well why not just roll with a paly if you need more raid mit? 100 blows dunno what you are reaching at here but we already auto attack with both hands every second. Thanls for the feedback, but looking for some unique class defining abilities, mine maybe not the best, but throwing them out there, so lets start throwing ideas out there for the good or bad, instead of just shooting down ideas bring some forward. __________________

03-22-2009, 11:00 PM	#5
Elialethal Server: Oasis Guild: Dark Solstice Rank: Recruit Newbie Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3	Personally, what I really want to see for monks is one unrepresented weapon: the Nunchaku. It's the iconic Bruce lee image that I want in the class, since monks are basically martial artists. __________________ A man who refuses to release his pride is but a foolish oaf. A man who, in his superiority, retains his humbleness is a true master, of himself and his surroundings.

03-23-2009, 01:51 AM	#6
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	Elialethal@Oasis wrote: Personally, what I really want to see for monks is one unrepresented weapon: the Nunchaku. It's the iconic Bruce lee image that I want in the class, since monks are basically martial artists. I seriously hope you are kidding.

03-20-2009, 05:04 PM	#4
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	Change combo to add an extra 1k attack for the next 10 attacks you do. Make superior riposte also stoneskin so we can use it to stay in on melee aes. Swap cranetwirl and craneflock in spots on the aa line, make cranetwirl proc 100% for 16 seconds make craneflock a 40% auto attack ae always on.

03-23-2009, 04:28 PM	#7
Achala Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 27	Monks are rarely desired as the primary tank, so maybe we should just give up on that role. A good idea for a class defining role for monks (and bruisers) would be someone who stands side by side with the main tank (a plate tank) but takes some of the blows for him and reduces the total amount of damage he takes. One of the problems with this game is that while you can stack DPS (more DPSers = more damage) and you can stack healers (extra healers means you can heal more damage, faster). But two tanks don't absorb twice the damage of one tank. Maybe that should change. Make it so having additional fighters (particularly the less desired fighters, such as brawlers) will reduce the total amount of damage taken by the main tank. I've noticed in most TSO zones people try to bring two healers. That's great for my healer alt. But why not make it practical to bring two fighters? So maybe give brawlers a kind of buff (perhaps a nonexpiring one that uses concentration slots) that allows them, if standing within 5 feet of another fighter, to reduce the damage that the target of the buff takes. The target takes 55% of the damage and the brawler finds 55% directed at him. However, the brawler would get an avoidance roll on the portion of the damage that would go to them and with sufficiently high avoidance, this should effectively almost almost halve the total amount of damage taken. Then, in theory, you could go into a difficult dungeon and people would either want a secondary backup healer (to increase the amount of heailng you can do) OR a brawler (to reduce the damage the plate tank will take).

03-23-2009, 11:19 PM	#8
Elialethal Server: Oasis Guild: Dark Solstice Rank: Recruit Newbie Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 3	Bchizzle, Yes I was kidding. So what Achala is proposing is to improve intercede by making it take a concentration slot. I guess it's a nice idea on paper, but some problems I see with this idea is that brawlers, as a class, don't have either the HP or the mitigation to take even half the damage the MT would be taking. What with all the strikethroughs and nullifications to Avoidance that seem to be rampant, this kind of revamp would have to be accompanied by some sort of improvement to the ability of monks to take damage, or maybe even an improvement to the avoidance system. However, if the developers try this idea, they might scrap the avoidance buff, which I think was a nice buff to have. I don't profess to know the game mechanics very well since I just started, but with all the information I have absorbed on the forums and from experience on other MMO systems, I think that if the Devs want the monks to be able to do all these things, they need to give us options. If we want to go DPS, we better be close to rogues in the department. If we want to tank, then at least put us a little below plate tanks. I personally like the way Ragnarok Online handled the Monk class... Monks were very versatile and competitive in any field that they wanted to compete in, but never the best at anything. As it is here, monks suck at everything and there's really no reason to play one. So... what I'm thinking is that we should not try to stick the monks in some special category that gives monks a token role. I say that monks, depending on their skill build, stat build, and equips, can do anything and everything a little less efficiently than the other classes that are designed for a certain purpose. For Instance, in RO, monks came in 3 distinct flavors: the Str/Agi Thrasher build, the Str/Int/Dex Spirit build, and the Agi/Vit/Int Tanking build. In any one of these builds, monks were as good, if not better, as Paladins/Lord Knights at tanking, as Assassin Crosses and Wizards at Damage dealing, and as Stalkers/Creators/blacksmiths at Soloing. Sure there was a lot of overlap in class abilities, but that was what Gravity envisioned for monks, and in the end the monks did well for themselves. I think that SOE should take a hint from Gravity and treat the monk class in the same way. Simply, there are too many classes to carve out a tiny niche for every single one of them, so don't try. Just make them a good substitute for any role in parties and leave it at that. __________________ A man who refuses to release his pride is but a foolish oaf. A man who, in his superiority, retains his humbleness is a true master, of himself and his surroundings.

03-26-2009, 09:27 PM	#9
Turb General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,117	Well, monks already have their avoid buff that they can put on tanks for precisely this purpose, and with our avoid being higher in general (I was pushing 90% in def stance) we're a good choice for that. And we have altruism (same theme, in effect) and a (very) short range heal. Perhaps an extra spike damage mitigator for an ally would be useful, and a form of intercede might be nice for that, but it would take away from our own capabilities somwhere (what do we give up to get it?) __________________

03-27-2009, 05:31 AM	#10
Wildfury77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 683	Achala wrote: Monks are rarely desired as the primary tank, so maybe we should just give up on that role. NO!!!! I'm really sorry but those of us that do MTank don't seem to have this issue. Monks are well respected Instance tanks on Nagafen. I generally find the most "anti-tank comments" come from brawlers who sound like they should have rolled a wizard..... Just because several of you got confused and picked a Tank Class doesn't mean our main role should be nerfed!! A monk MT can handle all the TSO instances I've tried to MT so far (I Haven't tried Palace yet). We have the tools and CAN hold agro etc.... I'm not saying that SKs etc can't do the role more easily....but its not the vast gulf you scout-wannabies claim /peace

03-27-2009, 01:34 PM	#11
Tendain Seer Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 6	Why not keep it simple... Make monks the way they are on eq1. Dps primary job and tanking just there incase tank dies and needs rez while fighting.

03-27-2009, 02:00 PM	#12
Wildfury77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 683	Tendain wrote: Why not keep it simple... Make monks the way they are on eq1. Dps primary job and tanking just there incase tank dies and needs rez while fighting. This isn't EQ1 --> when you picked your class did you read the class description? No ones saying you can't DPS but our primary role is as a tank/Hybrid not a pure DPSer. I'm quite happy (as are many monks) MTing in TSO. And our guilds raid MA/OT is a monk....when the Guard falls its the Monk that saves the raid force.... I have no problem grouping with platetanks --> I find paladin heals help me MT and zerkers provide some nice DPS buffs

03-27-2009, 02:45 PM	#13
Tendain Seer Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 6	Grondak@Nagafen wrote: Tendain wrote: Why not keep it simple... Make monks the way they are on eq1. Dps primary job and tanking just there incase tank dies and needs rez while fighting. This isn't EQ1 --> when you picked your class did you read the class description? No ones saying you can't DPS but our primary role is as a tank/Hybrid not a pure DPSer. I'm quite happy (as are many monks) MTing in TSO. And our guilds raid MA/OT is a monk....when the Guard falls its the Monk that saves the raid force.... I have no problem grouping with platetanks --> I find paladin heals help me MT and zerkers provide some nice DPS buffs That may be the case on your server but you have to realize that IS NOT the case on all servers. Right now on my servers unless you are already geared you really don't stand a chance on getting geared. Its always we want PLATE tanks and scout/caster dps or utility. Very seldom do monks or bruisers get to go anywhere.