Upcoming Feature for EQII: Research Assistants!

[xKHONSx]

Krieg@Everfrost wrote:

I think a month wait is bit drastic, but otherwise, I love the idea.

You are getting stuff for free.  You walk up to a npc, hail him and then let him know what you want and you think a month wait is a bit drastic?  Honestly if this goes live in its current form it really needs to be at least a 2 month wait if not more. 

Here is a silly idea, but if you want masters maybe you should go earn them by doing instances/raids or activities to acquire plat to buy them.  Then they actually have meaning since you actually did something to procure them.  Crazy idea though.

[circusgirl]

Having finally received my last master (the uberrare, 400pp Tranquil Vison O_O) all I can say now is that I really hope that if they introduce the RA they give those of us that geared up on our own somewhere else to go.  Add in Master II spells that take 3 months to research (once you already have the Master 1).  That way, those of us that are fully geared can actually use the RA, and there's a benefit to purchasing your masters the old fashioned way since using the RA for Master 1s burns valuable time that could be spent getting Master IIs.

[Windowlicker]

I like how a number of the people I see complaining about this have fully mastered toons.  Speaking as someone who's been here since release, I can assure you that the "absolutely zero" drop rate that was present during release was not fun, nor did it make the game more interesting or challenging in any way.

[Noaani]

The way I look at it, I have 75 slots in total on my wizard in which I can progress, 21 item slots, food/drink/ammo slots, mount, 19 adornments, and 31 spells. Of these 74 upgrades, the absolute best item avalible for food/drink/ammo, as well as all 19 adornments is avalible simply off the broker. This leaves only the 21 item slots and 31 spells to seperate players, and to provide a reward for any effort put in to the game. Although spells are avalible off the broker, their supply is significantly lower than their demand, meaning they are still very much a rare commodity, as opposed to adornment components, which are in oversupply.

Making it so the absolute best in the game avalible to all players is obtained simply by talking to an NPC and waiting will cut 31 of those possible upgrade paths. In my opinion, there are already enough of "the best in the game" upgrades that are avalible without any actual effort (ie, bought off the broker).

If this is added in without some form of effort required by the player, there needs to be a further advancment placed in the game to compensate. This could be something as simple as a non researchable level of spells above master 1s, or as complext as spell adornments with heroic/raid dropped components (something that has a massive amount of potential, even if it does involve a massive amount of work).

[Morrolan V]

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

I like how a number of the people I see complaining about this have fully mastered toons.  Speaking as someone who's been here since release, I can assure you that the "absolutely zero" drop rate that was present during release was not fun, nor did it make the game more interesting or challenging in any way.

How is that even relevant?  Nobody in all 45 pages of this thread has suggested that we should go back to that level of rarity.  In fact, many of the people speaking in opposition have suggested that, in lieu of a NPCs giving out free masters on street corners in town, the drop rates should be raised on the masters that people can't find.

Noanni's point is a succinct and well stated summary of the same objection raised by many of us.  If you make Masters available by default, they become the standard level of spell.  They go away completely as a means for any of us to improve our characters and the game will be balanced around all toons having them.

[hellfire]

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

I like how a number of the people I see complaining about this have fully mastered toons.  Speaking as someone who's been here since release, I can assure you that the "absolutely zero" drop rate that was present during release was not fun, nor did it make the game more interesting or challenging in any way.

Wow  way to try to flip  this as some sort of you verse me what the heck have you been reading cause that isnt even the case....just wow.

No one asked for it to be absolute zero and the person asking why shouldnt masters be rare...does have some what of a  point.

But i havent seen a number of people asking for  what your implieing and the fact still remains there needs to be effort attached with recieving the best possible upgrade for one of the main parts that will effect game play.

[kxizm]

Noaani wrote:

The way I look at it, I have 75 slots in total on my wizard in which I can progress, 21 item slots, food/drink/ammo slots, mount, 19 adornments, and 31 spells. Of these 74 upgrades, the absolute best item avalible for food/drink/ammo, as well as all 19 adornments is avalible simply off the broker. This leaves only the 21 item slots and 31 spells to seperate players, and to provide a reward for any effort put in to the game. Although spells are avalible off the broker, their supply is significantly lower than their demand, meaning they are still very much a rare commodity, as opposed to adornment components, which are in oversupply.

Making it so the absolute best in the game avalible to all players is obtained simply by talking to an NPC and waiting will cut 31 of those possible upgrade paths. In my opinion, there are already enough of "the best in the game" upgrades that are avalible without any actual effort (ie, bought off the broker).

If this is added in without some form of effort required by the player, there needs to be a further advancment placed in the game to compensate. This could be something as simple as a non researchable level of spells above master 1s, or as complext as spell adornments with heroic/raid dropped components (something that has a massive amount of potential, even if it does involve a massive amount of work).

QFE!!

[Rashaak]

Morrolan V wrote:

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

I like how a number of the people I see complaining about this have fully mastered toons.  Speaking as someone who's been here since release, I can assure you that the "absolutely zero" drop rate that was present during release was not fun, nor did it make the game more interesting or challenging in any way.

How is that even relevant?  Nobody in all 45 pages of this thread has suggested that we should go back to that level of rarity.  In fact, many of the people speaking in opposition have suggested that, in lieu of a NPCs giving out free masters on street corners in town, the drop rates should be raised on the masters that people can't find.

Noanni's point is a succinct and well stated summary of the same objection raised by many of us.  If you make Masters available by default, they become the standard level of spell.  They go away completely as a means for any of us to improve our characters and the game will be balanced around all toons having them.

I think you misunderstand what he/she is saying. What is being said is that even though the drop rate was very low for a Master 1, it didn't change the way the game was played. It didn't make it more interesting and it didn't make it more challenging either.

[Windowlicker]

Rashaak wrote:

I think you misunderstand what he/she is saying. What is being said is that even though the drop rate was very low for a Master 1, it didn't change the way the game was played. It didn't make it more interesting and it didn't make it more challenging either.

Yes, exactly.  The only thing it added to the game was the feeling your character was missing something.

[Windowlicker]

Bigron@Unrest wrote:

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

I like how a number of the people I see complaining about this have fully mastered toons.  Speaking as someone who's been here since release, I can assure you that the "absolutely zero" drop rate that was present during release was not fun, nor did it make the game more interesting or challenging in any way.

Wow  way to try to flip  this as some sort of you verse me what the heck have you been reading cause that isnt even the case....just wow.

I'm not sure who you are, or why you would imagine my post would be directed at you.  I apologize if you identified with my comment, and somehow felt I was trying to start some form of imaginary contest between myself and someone I've never noticed or met previously.

[Grumpy_Warrior_01]

Noaani wrote:

The way I look at it, I have 75 slots in total on my wizard in which I can progress, 21 item slots, food/drink/ammo slots, mount, 19 adornments, and 31 spells. Of these 74 upgrades, the absolute best item avalible for food/drink/ammo, as well as all 19 adornments is avalible simply off the broker. This leaves only the 21 item slots and 31 spells to seperate players, and to provide a reward for any effort put in to the game.

Well, you also have three pages of AA's, racial and class enhancements, skill levels, tradeskill levels, factions and all the other stuff on the persona window, all of which also provide individualized rewards for effort put into the game.  So it's a good bit more than just spells, gear and choice of drink.

[hellfire]

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

Bigron@Unrest wrote:

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

I like how a number of the people I see complaining about this have fully mastered toons.  Speaking as someone who's been here since release, I can assure you that the "absolutely zero" drop rate that was present during release was not fun, nor did it make the game more interesting or challenging in any way.

Wow  way to try to flip  this as some sort of you verse me what the heck have you been reading cause that isnt even the case....just wow.

I'm not sure who you are, or why you would imagine my post would be directed at you.  I apologize if you identified with my comment, and somehow felt I was trying to start some form of imaginary contest between myself and someone I've never noticed or met previously.

 I didnt take it that  your comments was directed at me. But you seem to want to generalize and imagine some  sort of   battle between those with  full masters  that dont want this and  those perhaps with out masters and want this....when in fact there has been no such posts regarding   that.

Everyone is complaining about this cause its a silly system that rewards someone for doing nothing so  dont  do the   us verse them bit.

[Valdaglerion]

Kendricke wrote:

Gilasil wrote:

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

A casual player that logs in once a week for a hour or 2 gets his spell upgraded in that month for a few hours of play time and just waiting on the bot to churn it out. For a more hardcore player they still have to wait a month to get the upgrade even though they may play 8-10 hours a day on average.

The casual player logs in once a week for an hour or two and gets his spell ugraded for that month and that's the only spell he gets upgraded that month.  For his one spell he'll most likely pick the one which is the most useful for him regardless of what it's going for on the broker or how rare it is because he probably wouldn't be able to buy any of the spells anyway -- even the cheaper ones.

A more hardcore player logs in several hours a night and earns enough plat to buy several spells off the broker in the course of a month, saving his one researched spell for something which is rare, expensive, or unavailable any other way.

So the hardcore player will still get more (since many spells are on the broker for prices which a person could easily make in a few weeks of regular player) but the casual player will at least get something.

That wasn't his point: "There is no consideration for investment vs reward on this idea."

I realize the concept - the very IDEA of putting forth effort in order to earn a reward may actually offend some of the persons within this discussion, but that doesn't mean that others may consider the approach to be one that is all but sacrosanct. 

Since I've raised the subject of game "concepts", I'm also curious as to what point we as a playerbase started to equate casual with lazy, incapable, or inept.  Are casual gamers no longer even capable of logging in or motivated to put forth any effort with which to earn the best versions of their spells they have available?  I'm not talking about the current system we have today, but the idea that the only way this research assistant could possibly work is if there is no cost at all involved in acquiring the master spells save for time.

Time.

Time is a currency we all earn (and spend) at the same rate.  The next 60 seconds I have available to me is the same 60 seconds available to everyone reading this.  There is no difference between a Minnesota minute or a New York minute (regardless of what popular cliches may state to the contrary).  There is no difference between an American hour or a British hour.  German hours, Russian hours, Swedish hours, Australian hours are all earned and spent at the exact same rate.  Casual minutes and hardcore minutes are identical.  There is zero difference. 

So while it's true to say that time is a cost, it's ingenuine to claim that time as a cost requires any effort at all.  It does not.  My expenditure of time does not speed up, slow down, or alter in any way when I am sleeping or running a marathon.  A hardcore player may do more during the same amount of time than a casual player (or not - some of the most serious players I know spend less than 10 hours a week in-game and some of the least achievement oriented players I know are online at least 4 hours each day), but the amount of time both earn and spend is identical each week - regardless of what those players actually do during that time.

Time never stops.  It keeps moving.  It keeps flowing.  It keeps spending itself for us, whether we choose to spend it or not.  In that way, it could be said instead that we dont' really earn time and we don't really spend it, either.  Frankly, it spends us. 

So again, the idea itself is not a bad one unto itself, but so long as the only "cost" is time, there is no cost at all.  There is no meaning to the rewards.  There is no effort.  There is no value.  At that point, master spells are no longer a reward...but an obligated standard which we are all due.  I don't know about the rest of you, but I like having master spells as a reward - an actual reward. 

The only way to have any kind of meaningful reward is through effort.  Add a cost.  Add ANY significant cost and you change the rules completely.  You add meaning.  You add effort.  You add...a reward.

Precisely. Thank you for elaborating to clarify my thoughts. Personally, I like having the masters as a reward but not a random drop reward. To me, they would have much more meaning IF the players had to actually learn through the various tiers and levels to get to the next one. IE, as mentioned initially you must have Adept III before you can get Master I. Consider for a moment (and alt-o-holics are about to cringe) but getting to a new level and having to talk to your trainer to learn the basics of App I for your new spell, then actually using it in combat while "learning how to use it effectively and acquiring more skill with it thus earning the ability to upgrade to App II...and eventually to Master I. This adds anotehr form of progression missing from the game, actually learning what the spells are for, and how they work and earning the upgrades.

And as someone pointed out - yes I play a summoner and I find it ludicrous the cost of my spellls anyway. You are correct, it took months of grinding out dungeons to get my pets and some really awesome guildies that had better luck than I and I am still missing about 10 of my T8 spells, mainly because I dont want to spend the 900p it will cost to get the ones actually on the broker and that leaves me with 3-4 not even available at all.

I like to play the game personally. I am not one to log in, push a button and log off, I want to adventure, learn, read, puzzle out the solutions and enjoy my time in Norrath. I want to be able to customize my character based on my game play and make them as powerful and diverse as is possible.  I dont want to push a button and wait a month for someone to go "Oh look what I learned, here is your spell". Whoopee. What wil suck even worse - "Go find this spell for me." 4 weeks later you get lucky and get the spell. The week after that your dude shows up with the same one...argggg.

The absence of multi-classing in crafting is another sore subject. As a joke some time back my spouse asked me to fix dinner. I retorted - "No can do, I am a Sage, no provisioning skill". She was not amused and somehow I found the ability to make dinner...hmmmm try that in Norrath..And as a crafter I would definitely be turned on by uber questlines that would allow me to reach a REAL master level allowing me to make MASTER spells and not just have a nifty cloak. Think performing research to unlock certain ingredients and discover their whereabouts, practicing the art of your craft. NOt buying a recipe to make a Adept III but having to learn the various preceding tiers FIRST like a real apprentice would.

Skills based MMO's are the next generation, not class restrictive.

[Morrolan V]

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

Rashaak wrote:

I think you misunderstand what he/she is saying. What is being said is that even though the drop rate was very low for a Master 1, it didn't change the way the game was played. It didn't make it more interesting and it didn't make it more challenging either.

Yes, exactly.  The only thing it added to the game was the feeling your character was missing something.

OK.  I still don't understand what point you are trying to make relative to the research assistant proposed by Kirstie.

The point I would make is that is is EXACTLY the same if everyone has masters as if nobody does.  SoE is going to balance the game based on the level of spells available to the playerbase as a whole.  Keeping Masters relatively rare (like they are now, not like were 3 or 4 years ago) is good for the game.

[Valdaglerion]

Morrolan V wrote:

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

Rashaak wrote:

I think you misunderstand what he/she is saying. What is being said is that even though the drop rate was very low for a Master 1, it didn't change the way the game was played. It didn't make it more interesting and it didn't make it more challenging either.

Yes, exactly.  The only thing it added to the game was the feeling your character was missing something.

OK.  I still don't understand what point you are trying to make relative to the research assistant proposed by Kirstie.

The point I would make is that is is EXACTLY the same if everyone has masters as if nobody does.  SoE is going to balance the game based on the level of spells available to the playerbase as a whole.  Keeping Masters relatively rare (like they are now, not like were 3 or 4 years ago) is good for the game.

I tend to disagree. I think the basic mechanic for acquiring them is flawed in concept to begin with. Consider for a minute what you are saying....

"Ok, we have this game. We want you to play it and pay us every month to have some fun here. Your character can acquire these Master I spells. Well, maybe you will and maybe you wont. You see, its all RNG based. IF and I mean IF you get a rare Master I spell, you may or may not be able to use it because its jsut random. There is nothing you can do to actually increase your probability of obtaining this item."

Tell a college bound student they are going to go to school for an indefinite amount of time and they will continue to study and be tested but at the end of each semester their professor is going to randomly select a grade for them. This process will continue semester after semester. They may or may not pass but in order to get a degree and eventually leave college they have to acquire enough passes to move on.

Yeah, I dont think that would work so well. It explains that after a few years of this gaming model the industry is looking for the next generation. A smarter gaming model built on achievement and skill and less on chance, luck and timesinks.

[Morrolan V]

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Morrolan V wrote:

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

Rashaak wrote:

I think you misunderstand what he/she is saying. What is being said is that even though the drop rate was very low for a Master 1, it didn't change the way the game was played. It didn't make it more interesting and it didn't make it more challenging either.

Yes, exactly.  The only thing it added to the game was the feeling your character was missing something.

OK.  I still don't understand what point you are trying to make relative to the research assistant proposed by Kirstie.

The point I would make is that is is EXACTLY the same if everyone has masters as if nobody does.  SoE is going to balance the game based on the level of spells available to the playerbase as a whole.  Keeping Masters relatively rare (like they are now, not like were 3 or 4 years ago) is good for the game.

I tend to disagree. I think the basic mechanic for acquiring them is flawed in concept to begin with. Consider for a minute what you are saying....

"Ok, we have this game. We want you to play it and pay us every month to have some fun here. Your character can acquire these Master I spells. Well, maybe you will and maybe you wont. You see, its all RNG based. IF and I mean IF you get a rare Master I spell, you may or may not be able to use it because its jsut random. There is nothing you can do to actually increase your probability of obtaining this item."

Tell a college bound student they are going to go to school for an indefinite amount of time and they will continue to study and be tested but at the end of each semester their professor is going to randomly select a grade for them. This process will continue semester after semester. They may or may not pass but in order to get a degree and eventually leave college they have to acquire enough passes to move on.

Yeah, I dont think that would work so well. It explains that after a few years of this gaming model the industry is looking for the next generation. A smarter gaming model built on achievement and skill and less on chance, luck and timesinks.

I can agree with that.

Allowing characters to control their destiny and not simply depend on the RNG is a good thing.  An extreme example is a mage in my guild who, last expansion, finally got his Runnyeye cloak on his 178th time through the zone.  Ultra repetitive timesinks are not good game design.

EQ2 is moving in that direction.  The void shard system, partial smart loot, etc. are examples of this trend.  I think that's a good thing.

If you look through this thread, you will see that the primary thrust of opposition has nothing to do with the fact that players would get to select which masters they get from the RA.  Rather, it is that NOTHING other than the passage of time would be required to obtain the masters.  Make it take a decent amount of effort relative to the reward, in some form or fashion, and most of the objections would fall away.

[Zarador]

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

And as someone pointed out - yes I play a summoner and I find it ludicrous the cost of my spellls anyway. You are correct, it took months of grinding out dungeons to get my pets and some really awesome guildies that had better luck than I and I am still missing about 10 of my T8 spells, mainly because I dont want to spend the 900p it will cost to get the ones actually on the broker and that leaves me with 3-4 not even available at all.

I like to play the game personally. I am not one to log in, push a button and log off, I want to adventure, learn, read, puzzle out the solutions and enjoy my time in Norrath. I want to be able to customize my character based on my game play and make them as powerful and diverse as is possible.  I dont want to push a button and wait a month for someone to go "Oh look what I learned, here is your spell". Whoopee. What wil suck even worse

Agreed!

You know, I always thought that "pets" should be a totally seperate issue.  Take that Dire Mount that they gave us with the retail box.  It grows with you as you grow.  

Master Pets as you mentioned are either non-existent or out of the price range.  This for a class that is defined by their pet.

Why not a "Pet Trainer" that sends you out on quests that have you take on powerful targets and hunt for rare items that the trainer uses to increase the power of your pet.  Imagine the possibilities of a scalable pet based on the content that they achieved with that pet.

You could have a  "Casual Level" pet or a "Raid Level" pet based how you actualy created and utilized that pet.  Now you see this awesome warmonger type pet that startles you.  They have it not because the spell dropped in a raid or they "fell into a huge sum of coin"; they have it because they made it that way.

Steal a concept from Vanguard and have some pet attunable items that enhance what the pet can do.  Getting a claw off of a trash mob would not be as strong of a boost as getting one off a named raid dragon.  Then again, if all you did was kill yard trash, that trash claw would serve it's purpose.

This would also allow "hardcore" summoner classes to have "hardcore" pets and actually improve balance since a "Master Pet" would no longer have the same value.

[Kendricke]

Morrolan V wrote:

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Morrolan V wrote:

Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:

Rashaak wrote:

I think you misunderstand what he/she is saying. What is being said is that even though the drop rate was very low for a Master 1, it didn't change the way the game was played. It didn't make it more interesting and it didn't make it more challenging either.

Yes, exactly.  The only thing it added to the game was the feeling your character was missing something.

OK.  I still don't understand what point you are trying to make relative to the research assistant proposed by Kirstie.

The point I would make is that is is EXACTLY the same if everyone has masters as if nobody does.  SoE is going to balance the game based on the level of spells available to the playerbase as a whole.  Keeping Masters relatively rare (like they are now, not like were 3 or 4 years ago) is good for the game.

I tend to disagree. I think the basic mechanic for acquiring them is flawed in concept to begin with. Consider for a minute what you are saying....

"Ok, we have this game. We want you to play it and pay us every month to have some fun here. Your character can acquire these Master I spells. Well, maybe you will and maybe you wont. You see, its all RNG based. IF and I mean IF you get a rare Master I spell, you may or may not be able to use it because its jsut random. There is nothing you can do to actually increase your probability of obtaining this item."

Tell a college bound student they are going to go to school for an indefinite amount of time and they will continue to study and be tested but at the end of each semester their professor is going to randomly select a grade for them. This process will continue semester after semester. They may or may not pass but in order to get a degree and eventually leave college they have to acquire enough passes to move on.

Yeah, I dont think that would work so well. It explains that after a few years of this gaming model the industry is looking for the next generation. A smarter gaming model built on achievement and skill and less on chance, luck and timesinks.

I can agree with that.

Allowing characters to control their destiny and not simply depend on the RNG is a good thing.  An extreme example is a mage in my guild who, last expansion, finally got his Runnyeye cloak on his 178th time through the zone.  Ultra repetitive timesinks are not good game design.

EQ2 is moving in that direction.  The void shard system, partial smart loot, etc. are examples of this trend.  I think that's a good thing.

If you look through this thread, you will see that the primary thrust of opposition has nothing to do with the fact that players would get to select which masters they get from the RA.  Rather, it is that NOTHING other than the passage of time would be required to obtain the masters.  Make it take a decent amount of effort relative to the reward, in some form or fashion, and most of the objections would fall away.

This is exactly correct.

The argument here isn't between choosing masters and random masters.  The argument here is between free masters or masters which require a cost/effort. 

[nomatterwhat]

just saw this thread, and don't feel like reading 46+ pages to find the answer. The comment about 1 character per server; does that mean 1 and done, or 1 at a time. Like if I get something mastered, can I then go on and get something else mastered etc?

[Dareena]

Kendricke wrote:

The argument here isn't between choosing masters and random masters.  The argument here is between free masters or masters which require a cost/effort. 

Well...  Actually my main objection IS about choosing your own masters.  Intentionally cherry picking your most potent abilities will definitely cause a server wide power ripple as others do the same as you.  That will cause a major balancing issue.  This results in an escalation of the power standards without expanding a character's potential for growth.  It's the crux of my objection.

Now I also do agree that free masters are also a real issue.  But I consider that to be my secondary objection.

[Tary]

Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

The argument here isn't between choosing masters and random masters.  The argument here is between free masters or masters which require a cost/effort. 

Well...  Actually my main objection IS about choosing your own masters.  Intentionally cherry picking your most potent abilities will definitely cause a server wide power ripple as others do the same as you.  That will cause a major balancing issue.  This results in an escalation of the power standards without expanding a character's potential for growth.  It's the crux of my objection.

Now I also do agree that free masters are also a real issue.  But I consider that to be my secondary objection.

But wouldn't this be balanced by the fact that it could take months for a single higher-end T8 master?  Furthermore, master-spells aren't GIGANTIC upgrades over Adept3 spells (though they are substantial), so I highly doubt this would cause any balancing issues.  The people I see gaining the most from these changes are Summoners, as their pets do get a massive upgrade from AD3 to M1. 

Perhaps SOE could find a way to add a small currency-sink.  Fees for hiring these assistants?

[nomatterwhat]

Developers/Designers, Just wanted to express my excitment over this potential change. If this goes live in more or less the same way you outlined, it'll be one of the best changes I've seen in many years. Something I always thought you guys should put in for a while now. Bravo for coming up with this. Please don't let the minority of people who want to turn this game into a competitive sport derail this. They do not speak for everyone, certainly not me. My character progression is my own business, not theirs. Obtaining a master every month or two sounds like a perfect way to continue individual character progression. This is after all, an RPG based game. It's all about diverse avenues of progression. I raid a few times a week now, most of the time I don't see a master drop. Those times that I do, it's seldom for anyone in our raid. Those rare, rare times a master drops for my class, I have to out bid the person with dkp points. If we have the same (cap on bid) I have to out /ran them. I only have one heal spell that's a master lol. Masters are way too precious right now. The upgrade from Adept III isn't worth the 200p some people charge for them. This change will finally cast masters in the correct light: A nice upgrade that you can get yourself that makes you self-sufficient. Nothing that you should break the bank over or get outbidded in the one time out of 12 months a master you want might drop. So, just wanted to say I'm all for this for all of the right reasons. Can't wait to see it go live.

[xKHONSx]

nomatterwhat wrote:

My character progression is my own business, not theirs. Obtaining a master every month or two sounds like a perfect way to continue individual character progression. This is after all, an RPG based game. It's all about diverse avenues of progression.

Every other form of progression in this game requires effort.  This should be no different.  Everyone should be required to actually put forth some effort to earn the masters.

Also your character progression in terms of spell quality will be exactly the same as everyone else who plays your class.  There are obvious spells that people will master out immediately.  Your character won't really progress, it will just be on par with everyone else.

The game is already getting too vanilla so let's not add to that. 

[Kendricke]

An Attempt at Economic Stimulus in Everquest II at Clockwork Gamer:

…and now SOE wants to increase the standard to Master I.  Oh, they’re not saying they want to increase the standard to Master I.  However, what other possible message could we possibly take from this new concept.  If everyone has access to free Master I spells, the standard over time will inevitably once again raise the minimum standard.  The average spell quality will continue to raise from Adept III to Master I across the board - not just for raiders and 40 hour a week players, but for everyone.  After all, there’s no cost being referenced by the SOE proposition thus far, and without any cost save for time, there’s no real cost at all. 

...

Over time, Master I spells become the new standard for all of us.  This means that just as there were casual players who found themselves frustrated by the new Adept III standard, there will be players who find themselves frustrated by the new Master I standard of the future.  It’s not merely a possibility, but an eventuality if Master I spells are allowed to be so readily available to any and all callers.

The short term gains would be outstripped by the long term difficulty standards.  Players who feel the game is too difficult today - the ones who seem most attracted to the idea of “free masters” would be the same ones upset in a year or two that the game is suddenly even harder than before.  Those players who today feel the game is very challenging with all Adept III’s can at least increase their spells to Master I quality over time, through effort and coin gain.  In a world where the Master I is itself the standard, there is no way to improve upon the spell quality - casual players will have no additional upgrade path in that regard. 

[Prestissimo]

I appologize for the wall of text, but those that read through it may find these ideas to their liking especially those worried about this system trivializing masters.

Alot of masters drop from raids and not so many from non-raid content.  For those of us that either don't have a open enough or regular enough schedule or don't have the time to afford to raid, it's a much bigger slap in the fact that we cannot obtain these masters unless we pay out the nose for them than this system will be to those that are fully mastered out.  As a warden, on my server, I'm not even able to physically obtain 3 of my 5 healing spells now or even later in the future at T8 because of a combination of they just don't drop and if they do, there are alot of wardens that want those spells which drives the price way up.  The very few times, and I mean VERY freaking few times that one actually does drop and god forbid ends up on the broker, it's a rediculous cost.  The 2 common ones are about 50-100p for tide of healing, and over 200P for healstorm.  Usually it ends up being about 500p-1,000p or more for the other 3 single target heal masters.  Ya, no.

As for the cost issue, you could make the system involve both time and material components so that you do have to contribute a cost to it.  The material components are where you can control the availability of these upgraded masters and wether or not it becomes trivialized.  Since "making a master is a complicated task" make the person do a number of various tasks that could even award some small amount of AA (like 1%) to encourage people to use this system for not only the higher longer completion spells, but the lower faster completion ones as well.

Say as a possible example you have 4 different reward materials from doing predetermined quests at the said level and an apprentice 4 requires 1 of the first component and 1 of the second, adept 1 requires 2 of the first, 1 of the second, adept 3 requires 3 of the first, 2 of the second, 1 of the third, and master requires 6 of the first, 4 of the second, 2 of the third and 1 of the fourth.  This denomination example I used is based on the transmuting denominations for familiarity and because it fit so well with what quality the spells actually were so people can relate better to what I'm trying to say and hopefully it will better illustrate the value of the quality.  Treasured (app 4 and adept 1) are the 1st and 2nd materials, mastercrafted/legendary (adept 3) are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and fabled (master) are the 1st, 2nd, 3rd ,and 4th. 

As for what is required to obtain the materials, you would for a 20s spell need some of the first materials and lets say it was enchanted powder that you obtained from a quest to kill 20 skellis in ruins of varsoon and taking the bones back to the npc, or you could purchase the powder from an alchemist somewhere in your home city for 5 gold.  If you can buy the materials, it will contribute towards destroying some of the coin accumulating in the game while still leaving the option open to do the quest for the component.  It doesn't trivialize the cost of the spells after all of the materials are considered and if they are on a scaling expense based on wether it's a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level component and the cost reflects the average coin availability for that tier.  The cost of buying the materials should be high enough that it is obtainable for those that level after doing plenty of work to build up to it, and enough that it addequately punishes one for not going out and doing the quest series or farming/making the spell if it's a common one.  Say T8 for example could cost you about 75 plat to buy all of the components, it will require you quest a minimum of one component, and will take about 2 weeks for a master.  That is short enough that it isn't as likely that you'll obtain the master in that time, and it's long enough and expensive/involved enough that it will probably take about a month to do everything for it, 2 weeks if you've been proactively working on it before hand.  The average buying price of masters on my server is 50p, so if it was a cheaper master, like most of my paladin's masters will be after the fighter revamp, I'll just buy the cheaper masters off the broker, or farm them myself.  If it were my warden's photosynthesis that IF it actually were available some time this year, it would go for 500p minimum, of course I'd use the system for that master.

If you equally involved adventuring, crafting, and harvesting it would require people to use a large variety of the games content while equally promoting all of the areas of the game and preventing the end reward from being trivialized due to the range of work and effort or cost involved.  It also would leave open possibilities for new quests to be added at developer's whim if they so chose or they could just leave it be with x number of possible quests for these items if it's a tier that's unimportant to them or one commonly farmed such as the masters off of Varsoon.  Back to the 20s master example, you could for example need 2 things each from an alchy, sage, woodworker and armorer that are level 20s which would help fuel the crafting community by actively involving them and giving them something that would constantly be used to use up some of the excess crafting materials that are stacking up from having the harvesting npcs constantly going out for materials.  You could need to harvest 150 gem/ore materials from the 20s (from nek/ts/or BB not zone discriminant to prevent bottleneck farming if it's a popular zone) for the NPC to use in making the upgrade similar to the halfling's quests on TS docks, or you could need 20 random ground spawns throughout that tier's zones.  The options are unlimited.

You could make these quests always available from a respective npc for that tier so that those that wish to actively stock up on the required materials can do so while waiting for a spells research to complete, or those that wish to do the quests for the AA can do so and just pitch the material.  Not everyone needs a spell upgrade, so there should at least be some option within this system for everyone including those that actually are fully mastered out and just want the AA from it, or you could make the materials heirloom so that they can move them to their alts to upgrade.  Alot of raiders have mastered out mains, and lower alts they play sometimes, so there might as well be some use or benefit for them actively participating even if they don't need the spell for that toon.

Masters are the end level of spells.  There should be a difinitive bonus to having a master versus not having a master and this system should in no way trivialize that.  Making someone really work for the upgrade will make the system most beneficial for those that have spells that the upgrade just never drops or is so difficult to find a mob that actually drops it or the material is so expensive/rare that it brings those spells availability back to a reasonably obtainable level if you're willing to put in the time.  Having this system will not trivialize the quality of masters, the developers and how they mold the mobs is what will trivialize the masters.  Almost every tso instance requires you either be fully adept 3 and mastercrafted gear, or adept 1 with pretty good legendary/fabled gear to start with.  If you don't have void shard armor and adept 3s, then you're pretty much stuck running with someone thats better equipped carrying you through the zone, or greying out the zone for the mission reward shards until you gain enough to get the shard armor.  That type of standardizing the zone around the rewards is what will trivializes the upgrades, not how you obtain them.

The "easy" content should be oriented around a group that have RoK quest line rewards, and half adept 1, half adept 3.  Likewise, if they want to keep masters as being an upgrade, they need to resist conning the mobs at the level of mastered out toons unless it's the really hard stuff.  As long as the developers don't use fully mastered toons as a standard in any situations other than the really hard end content stuff, the game will not continue turning into Everfarm.

[Avanya]

2 things:

1)  This is obviously not something that will go into the game any time soon...by the time it does, it could be close to or even AFTER the next expansion goes live.  So...those of you who are fully mastered (I am almost myself) and who are complaining about not getting anything out of it...would you use the feature after the level cap increases?  Please don't automatically say no because of how you feel about it now.  I would ask that you think about it before answering.

2)  I totally agree that there should be more to it than just waiting a month and picking the master up.  I have already posted different ideas of making this more than just a "free" master.  I would like to have to work for it...but NOT if I'm going to recieve a random master in return.  How does this benefit anyone?  It's the same thing as going into raid and group dungeons and hoping the RNG monster is on your side for once.  Might as well just scrap the idea if it changes nothing about the way we get masters.

BTW, I like the idea, I just think it should take some work to accomplish but frankly, if I have to do a lot of work and get handed a master I already have, it's not worth it.

[Zyphius]

I'm not reading this whole thread.. but I'll comment on the first page of posts...

I kinda like this idea. I've been playing this game since launch, I raid regularly, and I only have like 2 current teir masters. Prices on the broker are astronomical, and I don't have 500 freaking plat for one spell.

[Brimestar]

I agree with the idea, even if it takes a month or so to get an upgrade i think it would be better off and if ppl still want a Master spell they have the choice to wait or buy it.

[GreenArmadillo]

As a new player (highest character is a level 32 Dirge), I don't have tons of banked plat from my max level characters to buy spell scrolls as I level.  The good news is that I am a jeweler, so I'm not at the mercy of the free market for my App 4.  Unfortunately, Dirges are popular enough that I can't afford anything better - I sell all the rares and non-Dirge Adept 1's I get, but the low price for these items on the broker is typically in the 2-4G range, and bread and butter Dirge spells - or the recipe scrolls I would need to learn to craft my own - run in the high 20's.  If I'm lucky, I can Adept III a single spell per tier via the tradeskill quest, but any more would be a choice between that or letting my armor go grey. 

Personally, I would love a spell researching feature, but I do think it should carry an in-game cash cost, and, as a general rule, at least a day of training time per rank.  The example of learning a level 20 Adept I in a single hour for no cost strikes me as too far in the opposite direction - at that rate, every player would end up with Adept I of every spell without doing any work, which sort of defeats the purpose of having spell quality in the first place. 

Perhaps another alternative "cost" would be to award a RANDOM spell of the LOWEST quality in that tier of the player's spellbook (i.e. a random App 2 if you have any App 1's in your book, a random Adept III if you have all Adept I's).  This would eliminate the cherry picking aspect of the feature.  Players would still have an incentive to buy their bread and butter spells early so they don't have to wait to upgrade them, and players would want to get their entire spellbooks up to par ASAP so they can start getting the really good upgrades.   You could then set prices/times by tier of the desired spell (you wouldn't want to require level 80 characters to buy up level 40 master I's, that would make neither the level 80's nor the level 40's happy) to balance it out.  By the time a player has completed all their Adept III's for a tier and is willing to wait a month for a random spell, it's not exactly falling into their lap.

[Lord Morain Daknar]

this whole thing is a horrible idea imo, please scrap it.

No to easymode!