Racial Traits, Traditions, and Abilities (Revamp)

[Rahatmattata]

Taryth wrote:

It is up to you to provide evidence for your claims.  The burden of proof is on you, not me.  So why don't you go about that, now?  Get some parses and prove your point.

TBH I don't think anyone here really cares enough to roll a new race/class and go through the trouble of eliminating as many outside variables as possible to prove anything to you. Even if someone did care to prove something to you, you don't even mention the results you would like. How much racial traits from race "x" benefit a level 20 of some unspecified class in a group? How they benifit a level 80 of "x" class with 200 AAs in end-game gear raid buffed?

We get your point. You don't think racial traits make any difference and a racial respec or rebalancing should not happen and would be a massive waste of dev time (more or less; I'm paraphrasing and don't really care if I got your line of thinking exactly right). Some of us disagree with some or all of your opinions for various reasons of our own. Such is life. Hence, there is a discussion here about it. It's no more complicated than that, and it seems at this point your only interest in this discussion is dropping a fat stinky tird on anyone's opinion that does not conform with your own.

Prove it to you? Why? I know that 35 haste is > none. 35 > 0 what more proof do you require? I don't really care to prove anything to you so just go ahead and disagree. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone here really cares to change your mind one way or the other.

[Waruri]

You want proof that an overwhelming majority would like the idea of the opportunity to have a racial respec?

Here is my response....

Why should we not be allowed to have a racial respec when the ruleset has changed considering that Acheivments get a respec when the rules change? What is the reason?

Q) Because it would cost the developers time?

--A) I'll pay $5-10 for a respec through station cash (put that towards R&D for the coding)

Q) Because then everyone would choose erudite mages and dark elf scouts and the world would not be diverse?

     --A1) If this is the case doesn't this in turn prove that an "overwhelming" majority wanted the respec thus proving that the issue does need to be addressed and looked into because it does in fact make a difference in the eyes of the majority of the players?

    --A2) If not then what is the harm in allowing those who do want to switch the opportunity to do so especially if it's at a cost of plat in game or Station Cash through a special item to improve the overall game play experience.

You know how many times I've played an MMO from release and wished so badly that I could play XYZ new race that was added after launch without having to start over from scratch? This would be revolutionary to MMORPG's.. guess what WoW does not have this. You looking for one more feature to offer over the Blizzard giant? Well this is an idea.

The coding is too hard? I know nothing about code and I won't pretended to. So I'm just going to ask a simple question. There are character copies and transfers. Would it be possible to copy the character date for levels, masters, gear, etc and attatch that data set to a newly created charater on the same account. (Maybe this respec would require an open character slot? Which then opens a can of worms as to how is that fair to those with full slots, but that's another debate.)

I really don't know what the solution is. All I know is that there is a problem and it needs to be looked into rather than seen by one developer who just so happens to play the Highest damage dps class in the game with the race that best suits his character due to the new racial revamps. (It's not a coincidence)

The only response is "there really isn't a difference."

In that case getting a peice of raid gear "there really isn't much of a difference" then why wear armor at all?

-Because the combination MAKES the difference!!!!

[Dominuss]

While I appreciate those of you who have chosen to argue and point out very clear flaws in Tardyth's so called "logic", I feel that all of you are wasting your time if you think you will get  Tardyth to admit that he/she/it is wrong.  You guys will never convince him/her/it.  Some people just like to argue.  One benefit of some of the very good posts that have been put together is that a Dev might just read this and see how important it is to "the vast majority of players" and give us a chance to respec. 

Devs please give us a break and see that there are many players that have played many hours with their toon and just want the chance to have a level playing field.  A guy like myself with a wife and 3 kids has barely enough time for one toon.  I would quit the game before I level another toon up for any reason let alone a race change.  I just do not have the time and even if I did I would be extremely bitter that it had come to a reroll after the years I have spent with my Dirge.  Please give us a one time respec and make [Removed for Content] near everyone happy. 

[Lethe5683]

Kharzek wrote:

I personally love the variety and difference in the races. The racials and variances are one of the things that really gives EQ 2 flavor over the competition. To make everything identical simply takes away the flavor and races become nothing more then eye dressing.

Unless someone can post parses that prove being an Erudite SK or a Halfling Assassin caused their raid to wipe and never clear content then I see this as a moot point. I'd also suggest a few guides, since race would be the least of your raids concerns.

Why does no one understand the obvious? Racial traditions are UNFAIR.

Sorry if that one sentence was too complicated for you people to understand but I couldn't make it any simpler.

[Zarador]

Lethe5683 wrote:

Kharzek wrote:

I personally love the variety and difference in the races. The racials and variances are one of the things that really gives EQ 2 flavor over the competition. To make everything identical simply takes away the flavor and races become nothing more then eye dressing.

Unless someone can post parses that prove being an Erudite SK or a Halfling Assassin caused their raid to wipe and never clear content then I see this as a moot point. I'd also suggest a few guides, since race would be the least of your raids concerns.

Why does no one understand the obvious? Racial traditions are UNFAIR.

Sorry if that one sentence was too complicated for you people to understand but I couldn't make it any simpler.

Racial Traditions are FAIR!

The inability to change ones race when changes are made to a tradition, or when races are added to the game is what is Unfair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I choose the High Elf anyway, that is my choice and the balance remains Fair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I made a High Elf prior to the introduction of the Fae, then it is because I had no choice in the matter and that is Unfair.

When you change the "rule set" of the game; then you also need to allow the player to utilize this new "rule set" to take advantage of changes or preference.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like and easy change.  When you change any part of the AP Tree through a Respect you have all buffs removed from the character since there is no telling what the changes you make will effect.

When you "betray" your city, your thrown into exile until you do the quests for a new city.

Lets pretend that a "Dark Elf" changes over to be an "Evil Fae".  They could make the ONE TIME (unless more racial changes are made, or races are added) Respec from the character select screen.  The player logs in, no buffs in "Exile" where the city representitives of the "Evil Aligned" cities are offering "Citizenship" in return for some services for the city.

But what about those specific status items gained in the other city with other city faction?  Using some lore and creative magic here...The new city has a museum where they display such items.  You can "trade" them in for some "partial status" in the new city! Otherwise, their just like any other "unusable" item in your inventory.

[Trojamonkee]

As I play on a PvP server, these racial abilities are THE MOST ANNOYING THING IN THE GAME.

My toon is handicapped hugely vs other arasai ranger. Windwalker, perm featherfall and blink. It's more the fact they can run me off when I engage with these abilities (which don't even put them in combat GRRR) then come back and get jump on me and I have no chance of doing the same.

RACIAL abilities are HUGE in PVP. Allow respec or REMOVE runspeed buffs from pvp.

This is my biggest problem with eq2 at present.

[Andok]

Zarador wrote:

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I choose the High Elf anyway, that is my choice and the balance remains Fair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I made a High Elf prior to the introduction of the Fae, then it is because I had no choice in the matter and that is Unfair.

When you change the "rule set" of the game; then you also need to allow the player to utilize this new "rule set" to take advantage of changes or preference.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Noaani]

An outright racial respec is simply not a good idea.

A one time quest to help out some... thing... that will change your race, however, is not the worst thing that could happen to the game (that honour would fall to handing out free masters to anyone that wants them).

In the Thuuga questline, second quest iirc, you are tasked with killing a mob called Indigo. If you actually read the quest text, you'll come to the understanding that he was once human (or some other freeport race), and wa cursed to be a drolvarg. With this curse, he took on all the racial traits of a drolvarg, yet seemingly kept his own base stats (ie, he retained human intellange).

Something like this, provided there is some effort put in to it, could be good. It needs to only be avalible to each character once (with the option to remove the curse from yourself all together), but its worth putting in to the game imo.

[Wurm]

What blows my mind is all the PVE players complaining about this... like it matters on a PVE server.

And I can go the entire day running around on my server without seeing even one other DE.

I do see lots of Barbarians and Ratonga and Iskar and *gasp* Froglocks... and tons of fae, but everytime I do run into another DE I'm surprised. And up to now only one of the ones I've run into was an Assassin. Mostly the DE I run into are finger-wigglers or Necros.

I guess all the other players on Crushbone didn't get the memo...

[Zarador]

Wurm wrote:

What blows my mind is all the PVE players complaining about this... like it matters on a PVE server.

And I can go the entire day running around on my server without seeing even one other DE.

I do see lots of Barbarians and Ratonga and Iskar and *gasp* Froglocks... and tons of fae, but everytime I do run into another DE I'm surprised. And up to now only one of the ones I've run into was an Assassin. Mostly the DE I run into are finger-wigglers or Necros.

I guess all the other players on Crushbone didn't get the memo...

Maybe because to some players, choice does matter?  Not everyone wants the "racial ability" as much as the role play aspect of the race? 

It's nice to be able to "glide" across the zone, you feel even speedier when your smaller, even though it's just a perceived speed increase.

Heck, I even like the look of my "Evil Fae" as it feels a tad more personalized than my DE that looks pretty much the same no matter what I do to change his appearence.

Overall, I completely enjoy the mechanics of my "Evil Fae" Warlock, but not enough to delete my DE 80 Necromancer/80 Jewler that I played since launch.  I would however change him to a "Evil Fae" in a heartbeat.

Imagine if they apllied the same ridgid standards to AP.  Gee, sorry you made those choices last expansion, oh well, guess your stuck with them now.

[Gisallo]

Wurm wrote:

What blows my mind is all the PVE players complaining about this... like it matters on a PVE server.

And I can go the entire day running around on my server without seeing even one other DE.

I do see lots of Barbarians and Ratonga and Iskar and *gasp* Froglocks... and tons of fae, but everytime I do run into another DE I'm surprised. And up to now only one of the ones I've run into was an Assassin. Mostly the DE I run into are finger-wigglers or Necros.

I guess all the other players on Crushbone didn't get the memo...

If you are in a high end cut throat raid guild it can matter alot.  There a dps difference of 10% or even less on a zonewide can be the difference between you keeping your slot or losing it to the new guy.  

[Tary]

Nevermind.

[Tary]

Swishwah wrote:

Why is the onus on us?  You are quite certain we are incorrect - that it makes no difference.  Prove us wrong instead of just saying it.  A necro has already posted a basic parse, if you don't like it and want to punch holes in our statements, get some hard proof yourself.

Burden of Proof.

Nevermind.  But I will leave that link.

[Tary]

Nevermind.The devs will never listen to any of you because you're all fools...all a midnless rabble spouting off this and that, all the while disregarding any dissenting voices.  You need evidence, and until you get some, the devs are just going to ignore you.

[Zarador]

Taryth wrote:

Nevermind.The devs will never listen to any of you because you're all fools...all a midnless rabble spouting off this and that, all the while disregarding any dissenting voices.  You need evidence, and until you get some, the devs are just going to ignore you.

So short of the idiodic argument about the meaning of the burden of proof and all the other nonsense babble and rants, I quote my own post for the "Evidence" as to the fact that they have taken such action in the past with the AP Lines and should consider a racial respec ability.

Reasoning behind a Racial Respect:

The inability to change ones race when changes are made to a tradition, or when races are added to the game is what is Unfair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful or desireable due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I choose the High Elf anyway, that is my choice and the balance remains Fair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful or desireable due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I made a High Elf prior to the introduction of the Fae, then it is because I had no choice in the matter and that is Unfair.

When you change the "rule set" of the game; then you also need to allow the player to utilize this new "rule set" to take advantage of changes or preference.

Possible Method:

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like and easy change.  When you change any part of the AP Tree through a Respect you have all buffs removed from the character since there is no telling what the changes you make will effect.

When you "betray" your city, your thrown into exile until you do the quests for a new city.

Lets pretend that a "Dark Elf" changes over to be an "Evil Fae".  They could make the ONE TIME (unless more racial changes are made, or races are added) Respec from the character select screen.  The player logs in, no buffs in "Exile" where the city representitives of the "Evil Aligned" cities are offering "Citizenship" in return for some services for the city.

But what about those specific status items gained in the other city with other city faction?  Using some lore and creative magic here...The new city has a museum where they display such items.  You can "trade" them in for some "partial status" in the new city! Otherwise, their just like any other "unusable" item in your inventory.

[Kharz]

From my gaming experiences I've seen this same arguement more then a few times. Even with WAR and the new classes coming after the initial release.

The rule is you cannot please everyone all of the time. I would bet that the majority of people are not in a cut throat guild and that 10% dps one way or the other shouldn't matter, unless you just aren't likeable to being with. Especially when it comes to expansions and new races. By the time a Fae or someone comes up to raid, you should have already been so established that you were irreplacable. I personally do not see the connection there and if that is the case, seriously find a new guild. People that shallow cannot be fun to raid with.

Truely the only fix I could see as plausible and it would still be difficult to implement, if possible at all given EQ 2's age is the ability to pay for a racial change. WoW does a lot of programs like this for names, servers I think they even do it for race/sex now. So perhaps the SOE team could add something like this, but then the unfun raiding groups that like parses more then friends will all be FotM races. If that's your thing, then more power to you, but asking for generic racials, to me, is just as unfair to those of us that like the individuality of playing a Kerra or a Sarnak.

[Lethe5683]

Zarador wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Kharzek wrote:

I personally love the variety and difference in the races. The racials and variances are one of the things that really gives EQ 2 flavor over the competition. To make everything identical simply takes away the flavor and races become nothing more then eye dressing.

Unless someone can post parses that prove being an Erudite SK or a Halfling Assassin caused their raid to wipe and never clear content then I see this as a moot point. I'd also suggest a few guides, since race would be the least of your raids concerns.

Why does no one understand the obvious? Racial traditions are UNFAIR.

Sorry if that one sentence was too complicated for you people to understand but I couldn't make it any simpler.

Racial Traditions are FAIR!

The inability to change ones race when changes are made to a tradition, or when races are added to the game is what is Unfair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I choose the High Elf anyway, that is my choice and the balance remains Fair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I made a High Elf prior to the introduction of the Fae, then it is because I had no choice in the matter and that is Unfair.

That is such BS.  Since you can understand the obvious maybe any example will help.  This is basically the same thing you are doing now:

Random Player: It's not fair that class x is completly OP and is currently the best at DPS, tanking, healing and support.

Zarador: lol n00b, don't like it then reroll as class x.

[Lethe5683]

Kharzek wrote:

asking for generic racials, to me, is just as unfair to those of us that like the individuality of playing a Kerra or a Sarnak.

No it's not, most of the racial traditions don't even make sense according to the races abilities or lore.  How about instead of generic racials just change them to actually make sense and be balanced...

[Swishwah]

Taryth wrote:

Nevermind.The devs will never listen to any of you because you're all fools...all a midnless rabble spouting off this and that, all the while disregarding any dissenting voices.  You need evidence, and until you get some, the devs are just going to ignore you.

We have evidence, regardless of whether you and/or any dev wants to deny that.  But it looks like nothing will ever appease you sir, regardless.  So be it, hopefully the devs will be a little more open minded and less self centered than you have displayed.

FYI I have a DE Defiler (80) whom was my first ever char - created the moment after I installed my discs and could log in - aka the day EQ2 was released.  Why did I choose a DE?  Well my partner said shammy's rocked in EQ1 and the DE looked as evil as you could get for an evil race - so DE it was.

Second toon is a Ratonga Troubador (80) created a few months after my DE Defiler.  Third 80 toon is a Frog Illusionist - created the day that we could make frogs on our server.

That was one of the reasons I enjoyed EQ2 - I could have 3 very cool and very different characters and not be penalised (well ok, so I lose or gain >10 int or sta or agi etc stats tops).  All of these toons were created PRIOR TO RACIAL ABILITIES.  So, why should I be penalised for making 3 different toons, different classes and races, all because I forgot to look into my crystal ball and foresee that my Illy and Trouby would be at a disadvantage thanks to some racial skills coming out?

But, I guess more to the point, why are you so set on making sure people are and remain unhappy?  What harm does a racial respec do to you personally?  EVERYONE would have the chance to create the character they wanted if a free racial respec was offered - those that wanted to change would change, and those that couldn't care less about 'min/max' or run speed or any other racial trait would stay the same and still be happy.  Hell why don't we do away with racial traits full stop!   I mean how hard is that to code?  Oh wait, they already did that - some time around release they had that sorted I think...

[Lethe5683]

Swishwah wrote:

What harm does a racial respec do to you personally?  EVERYONE would have the chance to create the character they wanted if a free racial respec was offered - those that wanted to change would change, and those that couldn't care less about 'min/max' or run speed or any other racial trait would stay the same and still be happy.  Hell why don't we do away with racial traits full stop!   I mean how hard is that to code?  Oh wait, they already did that - some time around release they had that sorted I think...

I really don't think that a racial respec would be a good idea...  it would be much better to simply balance the racial traits and make them make sense or just allow all races to choose from all racial traits.

[Swishwah]

Lethe5683 wrote:

Swishwah wrote:

What harm does a racial respec do to you personally?  EVERYONE would have the chance to create the character they wanted if a free racial respec was offered - those that wanted to change would change, and those that couldn't care less about 'min/max' or run speed or any other racial trait would stay the same and still be happy.  Hell why don't we do away with racial traits full stop!   I mean how hard is that to code?  Oh wait, they already did that - some time around release they had that sorted I think...

I really don't think that a racial respec would be a good idea...  it would be much better to simply balance the racial traits and make them make sense or just allow all races to choose from all racial traits.

Racial respec is just one of many options available to SOE.  My point was more specifically to ask why that and other options were being flat out denied by a couple of posters here.

Personally I think the easiest option would be to treat them like they do the current traits - but have them all in a tree (ie you can pick to excel at ONE of the TS skills - so my DE Defiler/Jeweler could pick Jewelering rather than looking at 'craft alchemist stuff better' and wonder why I even chose the class).  You would have the 10 different tree's (like you have the 10 different skills now to pick from) and you chould choose ONE skill in one of the trees once you gain 10 levels like you do now.  That way if you are a frog assassin you have the chance to do the same stuff as a DE assassin which is the whole point of this thread (well other than pointing out the irony associated with a dev playing a DE assassin - which warrented or not is still ironic).

Is that a lot more coding, or just copy/pasting?  I don't know.  Never claimed to be a wizz at this sort of thing, but by totally negative to any suggestion claiming it was all 'too hard' and a waste of valuable time only serves to annoy the player (bill payer) base - not usually a good business move in my experience.

[Zarador]

Lethe5683 wrote:

Zarador wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Kharzek wrote:

I personally love the variety and difference in the races. The racials and variances are one of the things that really gives EQ 2 flavor over the competition. To make everything identical simply takes away the flavor and races become nothing more then eye dressing.

Unless someone can post parses that prove being an Erudite SK or a Halfling Assassin caused their raid to wipe and never clear content then I see this as a moot point. I'd also suggest a few guides, since race would be the least of your raids concerns.

Why does no one understand the obvious? Racial traditions are UNFAIR.

Sorry if that one sentence was too complicated for you people to understand but I couldn't make it any simpler.

Racial Traditions are FAIR!

The inability to change ones race when changes are made to a tradition, or when races are added to the game is what is Unfair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I choose the High Elf anyway, that is my choice and the balance remains Fair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I made a High Elf prior to the introduction of the Fae, then it is because I had no choice in the matter and that is Unfair.

That is such BS.  Since you can understand the obvious maybe any example will help.  This is basically the same thing you are doing now:

Random Player: It's not fair that class x is completly OP and is currently the best at DPS, tanking, healing and support.

Zarador: lol n00b, don't like it then reroll as class x.

Really., BS?

Reading comprehension helps now and then. Here is what I was saying.

1. If you had a choice to choose Fae, and went with High Elf, and no changes were made to either race, you loose, you made your choice.
2. If You made a High Elf when Fae was not in the game, since you could not have chosen Fae, you deserve a Respec choice.
3. If they changed the Racial Trait of your Race, you deserve a Respec choice.

Basically, if a race was unavailable when you started your character, or the racial traits on your choice changed, then because of a game mechanic change, you deserve another shot at a choice.

[Lethe5683]

Zarador wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Zarador wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

Kharzek wrote:

I personally love the variety and difference in the races. The racials and variances are one of the things that really gives EQ 2 flavor over the competition. To make everything identical simply takes away the flavor and races become nothing more then eye dressing.

Unless someone can post parses that prove being an Erudite SK or a Halfling Assassin caused their raid to wipe and never clear content then I see this as a moot point. I'd also suggest a few guides, since race would be the least of your raids concerns.

Why does no one understand the obvious? Racial traditions are UNFAIR.

Sorry if that one sentence was too complicated for you people to understand but I couldn't make it any simpler.

Racial Traditions are FAIR!

The inability to change ones race when changes are made to a tradition, or when races are added to the game is what is Unfair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I choose the High Elf anyway, that is my choice and the balance remains Fair.

If I think that a Fae is more powerful due to Racial Tradition over a High Elf, and I made a High Elf prior to the introduction of the Fae, then it is because I had no choice in the matter and that is Unfair.

That is such BS.  Since you can understand the obvious maybe any example will help.  This is basically the same thing you are doing now:

Random Player: It's not fair that class x is completly OP and is currently the best at DPS, tanking, healing and support.

Zarador: lol n00b, don't like it then reroll as class x.

Really., BS?

Reading comprehension helps now and then. Here is what I was saying.

1. If you had a choice to choose Fae, and went with High Elf, and no changes were made to either race, you loose, you made your choice.
2. If You made a High Elf when Fae was not in the game, since you could not have chosen Fae, you deserve a Respec choice.
3. If they changed the Racial Trait of your Race, you deserve a Respec choice.

Basically, if a race was unavailable when you started your character, or the racial traits on your choice changed, then because of a game mechanic change, you deserve another shot at a choice.

"Racial Traditions are FAIR!"

That is the bs.

Also, how many times do I have to say this?  We don't need racial respects we need choice of traits or at least balanced traits for each race.

[Swishwah]

I personally have a problem with your 'balanced traits for each race'. Firstly I'm not entirely sure SOE knows what balanced is, and secondly (and probably more importantly) if I created a ratonga wizzy, and you decided rats should get +2 melee crit, I'd still be in the same theoretical boat as I am now - I'm stuck with racial traits that are useless to me (well not as useful as +2 spell crit). Choice of traits FTW, else trash traits IMO

[Waruri]

Taryth wrote:

Nevermind.The devs will never listen to any of you because you're all fools...all a midnless rabble spouting off this and that, all the while disregarding any dissenting voices.  You need evidence, and until you get some, the devs are just going to ignore you.

 I gave you a parse along with a mathematical analysis of how an extra 2% spell crit chance (which high elves and erudites get) would possibly effect that parse. The parse was on ~30 minutes worth of parsed fighting data where my zone wide dps was just over 10,000 so not a casual player with 50% crit chance and crap gear, but not an Avatar guild players with 113% spell crit and the best gear either. Just a run of the mill raider.

Well the parse came out to show that 2% spell crit chance would have increased my zone wide parse by about 100 dps.

Which to me personally is a significant change when I'm always fighting the assassins for the top spot on the parse and fighting for that tops spot is one of the things that makes the game (which I also pay for) enjoyable.

Please tell me why it is that you do NOT want this to change?

Is it because you are a Dark Elf melee class, or Erudite mage class and don't want anyone to have what you have?

Is it because you just simply like to argue and get satisfaction out of trying to make other people miserable with something they cannot control and could not have prevented?

How does it hurt you if I change to an erudite wizard or my friends changes to a dark elf assassin?

------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note. I like my race, I chose my race because I thought it would be fun and I thought it looked better than an erudite did....and because The Devs said it would not matter what race I chose.

I'm the OP and what this post is about is making a change to the current system. This is not about we all need a respec. Respec was just simply an idea of a simple fix for those who have been playing prior to the changes and cannot go back and switch races b/c they already have too much time invested. In fact a respec is probably a bad idea because I'm afraid too many people would switch their race and you would see tons of Dark Elf melee toons and erudite mages/ defilers.

To me personally the best idea is to put all of the racial abillities in an pool or tree and let us choose which path to take just like shadow AA's have a general tab that goes for all classes make the racial tab work for all classes with trees tailored to scouts, mages, healers etc so anyone can play any class/race combo and not feel like they got the shaft from SOE because they didn't have the foresight to choose erudite wizards or dark elf assassins.

ps. If you want something unique to each race that adds flavor to the race. Save that for things like fish vision, but not things like cast speed, crit chance, temp buffs, speed increases or flight options.  A lot of races get an extra attack that can be used, why not give a generic attack that is the same for all races in damage and cast time, but the animation is tailormade to the race such that an erudite would levitate while casting it or an assassin would slowly disguise himself in the shadows and then pop out in a different animation than stealth. Better yet add some more fun spells to the game like the wizard flame aura and the sparkles from the diamond rod,  have the stuff that doesn't effect PVP and PVE be the Racial Flavor.

[Zarador]

Lethe5683 wrote:

"Racial Traditions are FAIR!"

That is the bs.

Also, how many times do I have to say this?  We don't need racial respects we need choice of traits or at least balanced traits for each race.

That's where we disagree however.  We do need the ability to respect when a race is added or a racial tradition is changed.  That would be fair.

Other than that, their called "Racial traits" because, well, that's what they are.  Otherwise they would be simply part of the AP line of advancement.

What your suggesting is that all races be "plain vanilla".  I want to be an Ogre, with Fae Glide, somehow that really does not seem to fit the lore of the game in anyway.

At some point people should really put the min/max attitude aside and allow for at least a small amount of lore.  No one to my knowledge is suggesting that players should not be able to choose what race they feel benefits them the most.  I don't however think that the whole race issue should be tossed aside allowing players to choose their race and then decide what racial aspects from different races should be added to their race.

I'm NOT a role player to a large extent.  I do however think that some of these posts reach a point of extremes like the ones that suggest we consolidate the classes into a few neatly streamlined classes so we don't have to have any distinction in the game and can really focus on just Min/Max.  You might make a few players happy with the concept, but I would be willing to bet that even more would leave because of the lack of flavor.

[Asif]

After playing a dark elf defiler which i love ( new toon), when i started my troub( main) 4 years ago if the dark elf would have the same racial abilities they have now i would have picked that way over the rat he is.

Safefall is no where near as good as the glide that the dark elf gets the little extra damage would have helped also, so since all that has changed since the time the game started i do believe we should get a racial respec i know i would change in a heart beat to a dark elf troub.

Plus on a side note the AA a new toon can get compared to an old one is very dramatic as you can tell i dont have lots of alts and have not rolled any new toons.

[Lethe5683]

Swishwah wrote:

I personally have a problem with your 'balanced traits for each race'. Firstly I'm not entirely sure SOE knows what balanced is, and secondly (and probably more importantly) if I created a ratonga wizzy, and you decided rats should get +2 melee crit, I'd still be in the same theoretical boat as I am now - I'm stuck with racial traits that are useless to me (well not as useful as +2 spell crit). Choice of traits FTW, else trash traits IMO

That's not what I meant.

[Lethe5683]

Zarador wrote:

Lethe5683 wrote:

"Racial Traditions are FAIR!"

That is the bs.

Also, how many times do I have to say this? We don't need racial respects we need choice of traits or at least balanced traits for each race.

That's where we disagree however. We do need the ability to respect when a race is added or a racial tradition is changed. That would be fair.

Other than that, their called "Racial traits" because, well, that's what they are. Otherwise they would be simply part of the AP line of advancement.

What your suggesting is that all races be "plain vanilla". I want to be an Ogre, with Fae Glide, somehow that really does not seem to fit the lore of the game in anyway.

At some point people should really put the min/max attitude aside and allow for at least a small amount of lore. No one to my knowledge is suggesting that players should not be able to choose what race they feel benefits them the most. I don't however think that the whole race issue should be tossed aside allowing players to choose their race and then decide what racial aspects from different races should be added to their race.

I'm NOT a role player to a large extent. I do however think that some of these posts reach a point of extremes like the ones that suggest we consolidate the classes into a few neatly streamlined classes so we don't have to have any distinction in the game and can really focus on just Min/Max. You might make a few players happy with the concept, but I would be willing to bet that even more would leave because of the lack of flavor.

Fine have your respecs I don't care about that since it's useless to me.  They could allow it but that's not the solution.  And something that you and the SoE devs don't seem to understand is balance != the same.

[Kharz]

I have to agree to disagree with you lethe. I personally love the variety and flavor that having different racial traits bring to a game. To make them cookie cutter would be boring and bland, not unlike WAR where they really truely do not matter. Which takes away from the interest and variety that we currently enjoy here in EQ 2.

Some view MMO's like a sport instead of a game. However I've always found that in any guild worthy of mention that your personal attitude and charater will outweigh a racial trait. If you, as a person, are likable and enjoyable in a guild then you'll get a spot and clear content through skill and tactics more then parses and kill times.

Since there is no clear resolution though, we will have to wait and see if SoE has enough racial complaints to merit a change, if not then party on!