Remember when......

Dreco · 03-10-2009, 10:06 AM

Tanks were just Offensive or Defensive not ST or AE. Although some excelled in the AE category, and some excelled at single target, it was still just Off. or Def.

Please don't change the paradigm, just give the lacking tanks some AE control(adding taunts to a few AE's was good idea).

PS... please give brawlers the same DA/MC/AE auto as the other FIGHTERS, thats right folks Brawlers are the supposed dps fighters.../sigh yeah right =(

Calris · 03-10-2009, 11:25 AM

Isn't "offence tank" an oxymoron there? Tanks are by definition defensive...

firza · 03-10-2009, 11:32 AM

remember when....pulling was an art?

Please bring back this fine mechanism.

(ps; your right...never seen a tank charge anything in my life)

Wurm · 03-10-2009, 11:38 AM

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Isn't "offence tank" an oxymoron there? Tanks are by definition defensive...

A IRL tank is an offensive weapon, mainly used to shock, dispel and destroy.

According to you the tank shouldn't have its 120mm cannon and three machine-guns removed or game related the big hulking guy wearing plate or a gi should have a shield in both hands...

You are incorrect both in game and in real life.

*edit* to the poster above me... never heard the term "Blitzkrieg" not even in history class? Take it from me, an old US Army Vet, tanks do almost nothing but charge... and destroy everything in their path.

Freliant · 03-10-2009, 11:41 AM

Change is not live yet... so no need to "Remember when....."

Stop trying to cry wolf on this change... people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. The fighter update is good, and the only problem is that some fighters in great gear want to be able to tank AND dps. They don't want to Tank OR DPS.

ST fighters have 1 additional AoE Taunt, and their existing AoE taunt has almost insta cast and all their taunts are at least twice as effective as on live IF they are in Defensive (Tanking) Stance. They also have much more offensive capabilites than on live IF they are in offensive (DPS) stance.

AE Fighters didn't loose any ground in taunting. In other words, they still taunt more than they do on live while in defensive, however they do taunt less on a single target than a ST fighter, however, almost all their taunts can affect all mobs in an encounter or AOE, which means, they can hold agro vs surrounding mobs much better than a ST fighter. And in offensive stance, AE fighters can put out much more dps than a single target tank.

Wurm · 03-10-2009, 11:45 AM

Freliant wrote:

Change is not live yet... so no need to "Remember when....."
Stop trying to cry wolf on this change... people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. The fighter update is good, and the only problem is that some fighters in great gear want to be able to tank AND dps. They don't want to Tank OR DPS.
ST fighters have 1 additional AoE Taunt, and their existing AoE taunt has almost insta cast and all their taunts are at least twice as effective as on live IF they are in Defensive (Tanking) Stance. They also have much more offensive capabilites than on live IF they are in offensive (DPS) stance.
AE Fighters didn't loose any ground in taunting. In other words, they still taunt more than they do on live while in defensive, however they do taunt less on a single target than a ST fighter, however, almost all their taunts can affect all mobs in an encounter or AOE, which means, they can hold agro vs surrounding mobs much better than a ST fighter. And in offensive stance, AE fighters can put out much more dps than a single target tank.

The basic rules of MMO development... by Jessica Mulligan

• If your licensor wants you to launch your game before it's ready, cancel it.

• It's the community, stupid.

• Many players don't experience a persistent online world as "a game." They experience it as "my life." An online world's hardcore players view themselves as citizens. Some want to be good citizens, some bad, but the entire core wants to believe they belong to something permanent.

• Big changes after launch drive away existing players and make newcomers mistrust you.

• "Fix the bugs before release, or release now and fix later?" The NGE (among dozens of disastrous launches) confirms it beyond dispute: Fix the bugs. If you can't fix them, cancel the launch.

• Oh yeah - don't launch before you're ready.

Tash 1 · 03-10-2009, 11:51 AM

My Zerker have no great gear at all. But I still feel the planed fighter update is as bad as it gets.To be forced to be in defensive against mobs so weak that I could tank them on my Templar is so totally wrong.

In defensive the survivability should go up and the dps down.In offensive the survivability should go down and the dps up.

Its not so hard to understand to be honest. If this fighter revamp go live I stop call my Zerker a Tank and instead use the proper name Taunter.

“Grp of five looking for Taunter last slot gtg””

/Tash

Freliant · 03-10-2009, 11:52 AM

Wurm wrote:

Freliant wrote:
Change is not live yet... so no need to "Remember when....."
Stop trying to cry wolf on this change... people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. The fighter update is good, and the only problem is that some fighters in great gear want to be able to tank AND dps. They don't want to Tank OR DPS.
ST fighters have 1 additional AoE Taunt, and their existing AoE taunt has almost insta cast and all their taunts are at least twice as effective as on live IF they are in Defensive (Tanking) Stance. They also have much more offensive capabilites than on live IF they are in offensive (DPS) stance.
AE Fighters didn't loose any ground in taunting. In other words, they still taunt more than they do on live while in defensive, however they do taunt less on a single target than a ST fighter, however, almost all their taunts can affect all mobs in an encounter or AOE, which means, they can hold agro vs surrounding mobs much better than a ST fighter. And in offensive stance, AE fighters can put out much more dps than a single target tank.
The basic rules of MMO development... by Jessica Mulligan
• If your licensor wants you to launch your game before it's ready, cancel it.
• It's the community, stupid.
• Many players don't experience a persistent online world as "a game." They experience it as "my life." An online world's hardcore players view themselves as citizens. Some want to be good citizens, some bad, but the entire core wants to believe they belong to something permanent.
• Big changes after launch drive away existing players and make newcomers mistrust you.
• "Fix the bugs before release, or release now and fix later?" The NGE (among dozens of disastrous launches) confirms it beyond dispute: Fix the bugs. If you can't fix them, cancel the launch.
• Oh yeah - don't launch before you're ready.

Very well... explain the "bug" that needed this release to be delayed. You will find that you will go around full circle to the point that the fighters that wanted to Tank and DPS are the real reason the change didn't go in as planned and not any supposed "bug".

firza · 03-10-2009, 11:53 AM

lol wurm, reading comprehension ftl SMILEY

Freliant · 03-10-2009, 11:57 AM

Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote:

My Zerker have no great gear at all. But I still feel the planed fighter update is as bad as it gets.To be forced to be in defensive against mobs so weak that I could tank them on my Templar is so totally wrong.
In defensive the survivability should go up and the dps down.In offensive the survivability should go down and the dps up.
Its not so hard to understand to be honest. If this fighter revamp go live I stop call my Zerker a Tank and instead use the proper name Taunter.
“Grp of five looking for Taunter last slot gtg””
/Tash

This is a misconception... Trash can be tanked in offensive mode... specially if its "weak" trash. We are talking about Tanking raid mobs, where you have to stay alive for more than 10 seconds. In offensive, you can put out just enough dps to keep the mob on you long enough for the big hitters to destroy it. If you are a heavy dps fighter class, like the zerker, sk or bruiser/monk, then you can keep agro even longer than that... but ALL fighters, will need to get in defensive for the real hard encounters and definately for raids.

Tash 1 · 03-10-2009, 12:10 PM

Freliant wrote:

Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote:
My Zerker have no great gear at all. But I still feel the planed fighter update is as bad as it gets.To be forced to be in defensive against mobs so weak that I could tank them on my Templar is so totally wrong.
In defensive the survivability should go up and the dps down.In offensive the survivability should go down and the dps up.
Its not so hard to understand to be honest. If this fighter revamp go live I stop call my Zerker a Tank and instead use the proper name Taunter.
“Grp of five looking for Taunter last slot gtg””
/Tash
This is a misconception... Trash can be tanked in offensive mode... specially if its "weak" trash. We are talking about Tanking raid mobs, where you have to stay alive for more than 10 seconds. In offensive, you can put out just enough dps to keep the mob on you long enough for the big hitters to destroy it. If you are a heavy dps fighter class, like the zerker, sk or bruiser/monk, then you can keep agro even longer than that... but ALL fighters, will need to get in defensive for the real hard encounters and definately for raids.

The revamp concern more groups than raids even if I agree the raid part will be even worse.

But face it. My Zerker puts out 2-3 k DPS in DF. If those 2-3K dps is all that should keep the hate on me as a Tank there no way I can hold aggro from my DPS partners.

Today it works since I have 2-3K dps and My Taunts!!Tomorrow I have no taunts in DPS and therefore cant hold aggro and therefore must be in defensive all the way through or force my DPS partners to slack all the way through.

A equally geared tank never outparse a DPS class.

The revamp will make me awesome at taunting and make the “Taunter” role trivial. But it will force me forever in Defensive.

/tash

Dreco · 03-10-2009, 12:20 PM

Freliant wrote:

people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months.

I dont work for Sony, so I can't be the reason that they are not pushing a BS revamp out. People such as myself are trying to get them to get it right or don't do it all.

Freliant · 03-10-2009, 12:24 PM

Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote:

Today it works since I have 2-3K dps and My Taunts!!Tomorrow I have no taunts in DPS and therefore cant hold aggro and therefore must be in defensive all the way through or force my DPS partners to slack all the way through.

Ummm... tomorrow in defensive stance you will be doing 1k-2k and more than double your taunting, and in offensive you will be doing 3k-5k dps in offensive... if your dps is doing less damage than that... no need for additional taunts, and if your dps is doing more than that... well... trash isn't going to be alive for long is it? 4 dps at 6k dps a piece = 24k dps plus your 4k = 28k dps... over 100k dps in 4 seconds... and most mobs in T8 DF have 85k-110k HP... Think you can hold agro for 4-6 seconds without a taunt?

My point is, on trash, you will still be able to tank in offensive if you want, as long as we are not talking about multimob encounters with really high hp, or raid trash. For those, offensive is your best friend, and you do not have to be afraid to tank in defensive.

Freliant · 03-10-2009, 12:30 PM

Froech wrote:

There are still some things we want to make sure that we address properly, and we recognize that there are some people who don't quite understand what our goals are. With that in mind, we're going to postpone releasing these changes to the live servers, while we continue to evaluate the feedback that you are giving us. We truly appreciate all of the data that you provide, and most particularly from those who have joined the excellent folks on the Test server in running through these changes, both on their own, and in conjunction with the devs. In fact, if you play a fighter class now, and haven't been on the Test Server to experience these changes yourself, we'd certainly encourage you to do so, as your informed opinions are very valuable to us. Once we're more comfortable with releasing the second part of the fighter revamp, which will include the Hate Meter, we'll certainly let you know, but in the meantime, please keep play-testing, and continue to give us your thoughts.

So, I stick by my guns that it is people like the OP that have caused this update to be delayed as much as it has.

The "issues" that they want to address properly... most probably the single target vs area target issue that Aerilik put into test the week after that. The change WILL come, reguardless of what is said on the forums, because indeed it is needed for the long term health of the game.

Vain · 03-10-2009, 12:37 PM

Freliant wrote:

This is a misconception... Trash can be tanked in offensive mode... specially if its "weak" trash. We are talking about Tanking raid mobs, where you have to stay alive for more than 10 seconds. In offensive, you can put out just enough dps to keep the mob on you long enough for the big hitters to destroy it. If you are a heavy dps fighter class, like the zerker, sk or bruiser/monk, then you can keep agro even longer than that... but ALL fighters, will need to get in defensive for the real hard encounters and definately for raids.

The other misconception is that "hard encounters" are always going to be "hard encounters".

Progression eventually trivializes most, if not all, encounters. If progression doesn't, familiarity with an encounter does.

I think that most decent tanks know when defensive stance is required and when it isn't. They also know that, at a certain point, a group/raid force is going to be able to handle all of the tricks an encounter can throw at them to warrant tanking in offensive stance - whether or not the additional dps is significant. Thus, the tank makes use of their grey matter to judge which stance is a viable tanking stance and goes from there.

Who cares if you can tank in offensive post changes on a 5-10 second fight? It's not really "tanking" if the mob is on the swashie or the wizard, now is it? Even if it dies before the squishy.

What the re-vamp does is constrain tanks - it does the thinking for them. Future re-vamps will continue along these same routes. Having the development team decide that we need new direction for our toons and introduce mechanisms that take the thinking out of it will, in no way, shape or form, improve the game. It will dumb it down. It will cater to the lowest common denominator.

Dreco · 03-10-2009, 12:43 PM

Vain wrote:

What the re-vamp does is constrain tanks - it does the thinking for them. Future re-vamps will continue along these same routes. Having the development team decide that we need new direction for our toons and introduce mechanisms that take the thinking out of it will, in no way, shape or form, improve the game. It will dumb it down. It will cater to the lowest common denominator.

QFEBut Freliant doesn't understand this

Freliant · 03-10-2009, 12:57 PM

Dreco@Permafrost wrote:

Vain wrote:
What the re-vamp does is constrain tanks - it does the thinking for them. Future re-vamps will continue along these same routes. Having the development team decide that we need new direction for our toons and introduce mechanisms that take the thinking out of it will, in no way, shape or form, improve the game. It will dumb it down. It will cater to the lowest common denominator.
QFEBut Freliant doesn't understand this

Tanking is not just taunting, and if you think that is all there is to tanking... I can see that you don't know the tank class at all.

liveja · 03-10-2009, 01:02 PM

Freliant wrote:

Tanking is not just taunting, and if you think that is all there is to tanking... I can see that you don't know the tank class at all.

Oddly, it kinda seems that SOE thinks otherwise, which IIRC is the entire point of the adverse reaction they're getting.

Vain · 03-10-2009, 01:08 PM

Freliant wrote:

Tanking is not just taunting, and if you think that is all there is to tanking... I can see that you don't know the tank class at all.

As much as I'd like to ensure the viability of "tank" classes in heroic instances, any class can body pull, plenty of them can lock down adds, and many, many more can hold aggro and position a mob just right. Hell, clothies can take as many hits in many cases (lol_dispersion)

I mean, the art of body pulling is a lost art. I can send (and often do) a dirge in to make pulls for me, just for fun. There aren't many places where body pulling is a challenge and where it is, simply becoming familiar with a zone makes it a cinch.

So, yes, I'd like to think tanking is far more than taunting. The re-vamp, however, really doesn't back that up.

Kiara · 03-10-2009, 02:12 PM

We have so many of these floating around.

Please keep the feedback in already active threads.

Thank you!

03-10-2009, 11:38 AM	#4
Wurm Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote: Isn't "offence tank" an oxymoron there? Tanks are by definition defensive... A IRL tank is an offensive weapon, mainly used to shock, dispel and destroy. According to you the tank shouldn't have its 120mm cannon and three machine-guns removed or game related the big hulking guy wearing plate or a gi should have a shield in both hands... You are incorrect both in game and in real life. edit to the poster above me... never heard the term "Blitzkrieg" not even in history class? Take it from me, an old US Army Vet, tanks do almost nothing but charge... and destroy everything in their path. __________________

03-10-2009, 11:41 AM	#5
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	Change is not live yet... so no need to "Remember when....." Stop trying to cry wolf on this change... people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. The fighter update is good, and the only problem is that some fighters in great gear want to be able to tank AND dps. They don't want to Tank OR DPS. ST fighters have 1 additional AoE Taunt, and their existing AoE taunt has almost insta cast and all their taunts are at least twice as effective as on live IF they are in Defensive (Tanking) Stance. They also have much more offensive capabilites than on live IF they are in offensive (DPS) stance. AE Fighters didn't loose any ground in taunting. In other words, they still taunt more than they do on live while in defensive, however they do taunt less on a single target than a ST fighter, however, almost all their taunts can affect all mobs in an encounter or AOE, which means, they can hold agro vs surrounding mobs much better than a ST fighter. And in offensive stance, AE fighters can put out much more dps than a single target tank. __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-10-2009, 11:45 AM	#6
Wurm Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,003	Freliant wrote: Change is not live yet... so no need to "Remember when....." Stop trying to cry wolf on this change... people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. The fighter update is good, and the only problem is that some fighters in great gear want to be able to tank AND dps. They don't want to Tank OR DPS. ST fighters have 1 additional AoE Taunt, and their existing AoE taunt has almost insta cast and all their taunts are at least twice as effective as on live IF they are in Defensive (Tanking) Stance. They also have much more offensive capabilites than on live IF they are in offensive (DPS) stance. AE Fighters didn't loose any ground in taunting. In other words, they still taunt more than they do on live while in defensive, however they do taunt less on a single target than a ST fighter, however, almost all their taunts can affect all mobs in an encounter or AOE, which means, they can hold agro vs surrounding mobs much better than a ST fighter. And in offensive stance, AE fighters can put out much more dps than a single target tank. The basic rules of MMO development... by Jessica Mulligan • If your licensor wants you to launch your game before it's ready, cancel it. • It's the community, stupid. • Many players don't experience a persistent online world as "a game." They experience it as "my life." An online world's hardcore players view themselves as citizens. Some want to be good citizens, some bad, but the entire core wants to believe they belong to something permanent. • Big changes after launch drive away existing players and make newcomers mistrust you. • "Fix the bugs before release, or release now and fix later?" The NGE (among dozens of disastrous launches) confirms it beyond dispute: Fix the bugs. If you can't fix them, cancel the launch. • Oh yeah - don't launch before you're ready. __________________

03-10-2009, 11:51 AM	#7
Tash 1 General Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 240	My Zerker have no great gear at all. But I still feel the planed fighter update is as bad as it gets.To be forced to be in defensive against mobs so weak that I could tank them on my Templar is so totally wrong. In defensive the survivability should go up and the dps down.In offensive the survivability should go down and the dps up. Its not so hard to understand to be honest. If this fighter revamp go live I stop call my Zerker a Tank and instead use the proper name Taunter. “Grp of five looking for Taunter last slot gtg”” /Tash __________________

03-10-2009, 11:52 AM	#8
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	Wurm wrote: Freliant wrote: Change is not live yet... so no need to "Remember when....." Stop trying to cry wolf on this change... people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. The fighter update is good, and the only problem is that some fighters in great gear want to be able to tank AND dps. They don't want to Tank OR DPS. ST fighters have 1 additional AoE Taunt, and their existing AoE taunt has almost insta cast and all their taunts are at least twice as effective as on live IF they are in Defensive (Tanking) Stance. They also have much more offensive capabilites than on live IF they are in offensive (DPS) stance. AE Fighters didn't loose any ground in taunting. In other words, they still taunt more than they do on live while in defensive, however they do taunt less on a single target than a ST fighter, however, almost all their taunts can affect all mobs in an encounter or AOE, which means, they can hold agro vs surrounding mobs much better than a ST fighter. And in offensive stance, AE fighters can put out much more dps than a single target tank. The basic rules of MMO development... by Jessica Mulligan • If your licensor wants you to launch your game before it's ready, cancel it. • It's the community, stupid. • Many players don't experience a persistent online world as "a game." They experience it as "my life." An online world's hardcore players view themselves as citizens. Some want to be good citizens, some bad, but the entire core wants to believe they belong to something permanent. • Big changes after launch drive away existing players and make newcomers mistrust you. • "Fix the bugs before release, or release now and fix later?" The NGE (among dozens of disastrous launches) confirms it beyond dispute: Fix the bugs. If you can't fix them, cancel the launch. • Oh yeah - don't launch before you're ready. Very well... explain the "bug" that needed this release to be delayed. You will find that you will go around full circle to the point that the fighters that wanted to Tank and DPS are the real reason the change didn't go in as planned and not any supposed "bug". __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-10-2009, 10:06 AM	#1
Dreco Server: Permafrost Guild: League of the Extraordinary Rank: MEN-AT-ARMS Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 47	Tanks were just Offensive or Defensive not ST or AE. Although some excelled in the AE category, and some excelled at single target, it was still just Off. or Def. Please don't change the paradigm, just give the lacking tanks some AE control(adding taunts to a few AE's was good idea). PS... please give brawlers the same DA/MC/AE auto as the other FIGHTERS, thats right folks Brawlers are the supposed dps fighters.../sigh yeah right =(

03-10-2009, 11:25 AM	#2
Calris Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Windrunner Trading Company Rank: Herald Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 459	Isn't "offence tank" an oxymoron there? Tanks are by definition defensive...

03-10-2009, 11:32 AM	#3
firza Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 640	remember when....pulling was an art? Please bring back this fine mechanism. (ps; your right...never seen a tank charge anything in my life)

03-10-2009, 11:53 AM	#9
firza Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 640	lol wurm, reading comprehension ftl

03-10-2009, 11:57 AM	#10
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote: My Zerker have no great gear at all. But I still feel the planed fighter update is as bad as it gets.To be forced to be in defensive against mobs so weak that I could tank them on my Templar is so totally wrong. In defensive the survivability should go up and the dps down.In offensive the survivability should go down and the dps up. Its not so hard to understand to be honest. If this fighter revamp go live I stop call my Zerker a Tank and instead use the proper name Taunter. “Grp of five looking for Taunter last slot gtg”” /Tash This is a misconception... Trash can be tanked in offensive mode... specially if its "weak" trash. We are talking about Tanking raid mobs, where you have to stay alive for more than 10 seconds. In offensive, you can put out just enough dps to keep the mob on you long enough for the big hitters to destroy it. If you are a heavy dps fighter class, like the zerker, sk or bruiser/monk, then you can keep agro even longer than that... but ALL fighters, will need to get in defensive for the real hard encounters and definately for raids. __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-10-2009, 12:10 PM	#11
Tash 1 General Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 240	Freliant wrote: Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote: My Zerker have no great gear at all. But I still feel the planed fighter update is as bad as it gets.To be forced to be in defensive against mobs so weak that I could tank them on my Templar is so totally wrong. In defensive the survivability should go up and the dps down.In offensive the survivability should go down and the dps up. Its not so hard to understand to be honest. If this fighter revamp go live I stop call my Zerker a Tank and instead use the proper name Taunter. “Grp of five looking for Taunter last slot gtg”” /Tash This is a misconception... Trash can be tanked in offensive mode... specially if its "weak" trash. We are talking about Tanking raid mobs, where you have to stay alive for more than 10 seconds. In offensive, you can put out just enough dps to keep the mob on you long enough for the big hitters to destroy it. If you are a heavy dps fighter class, like the zerker, sk or bruiser/monk, then you can keep agro even longer than that... but ALL fighters, will need to get in defensive for the real hard encounters and definately for raids. The revamp concern more groups than raids even if I agree the raid part will be even worse. But face it. My Zerker puts out 2-3 k DPS in DF. If those 2-3K dps is all that should keep the hate on me as a Tank there no way I can hold aggro from my DPS partners. Today it works since I have 2-3K dps and My Taunts!!Tomorrow I have no taunts in DPS and therefore cant hold aggro and therefore must be in defensive all the way through or force my DPS partners to slack all the way through. A equally geared tank never outparse a DPS class. The revamp will make me awesome at taunting and make the “Taunter” role trivial. But it will force me forever in Defensive. /tash __________________

03-10-2009, 12:20 PM	#12
Dreco Server: Permafrost Guild: League of the Extraordinary Rank: MEN-AT-ARMS Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 47	Freliant wrote: people like the OP are the main reason that we haven't had a LU in over 4 months. I dont work for Sony, so I can't be the reason that they are not pushing a BS revamp out. People such as myself are trying to get them to get it right or don't do it all.

03-10-2009, 12:24 PM	#13
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	Tashiana@Runnyeye wrote: Today it works since I have 2-3K dps and My Taunts!!Tomorrow I have no taunts in DPS and therefore cant hold aggro and therefore must be in defensive all the way through or force my DPS partners to slack all the way through. Ummm... tomorrow in defensive stance you will be doing 1k-2k and more than double your taunting, and in offensive you will be doing 3k-5k dps in offensive... if your dps is doing less damage than that... no need for additional taunts, and if your dps is doing more than that... well... trash isn't going to be alive for long is it? 4 dps at 6k dps a piece = 24k dps plus your 4k = 28k dps... over 100k dps in 4 seconds... and most mobs in T8 DF have 85k-110k HP... Think you can hold agro for 4-6 seconds without a taunt? My point is, on trash, you will still be able to tank in offensive if you want, as long as we are not talking about multimob encounters with really high hp, or raid trash. For those, offensive is your best friend, and you do not have to be afraid to tank in defensive. __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-10-2009, 12:30 PM	#14
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	Froech wrote: There are still some things we want to make sure that we address properly, and we recognize that there are some people who don't quite understand what our goals are. With that in mind, we're going to postpone releasing these changes to the live servers, while we continue to evaluate the feedback that you are giving us. We truly appreciate all of the data that you provide, and most particularly from those who have joined the excellent folks on the Test server in running through these changes, both on their own, and in conjunction with the devs. In fact, if you play a fighter class now, and haven't been on the Test Server to experience these changes yourself, we'd certainly encourage you to do so, as your informed opinions are very valuable to us. Once we're more comfortable with releasing the second part of the fighter revamp, which will include the Hate Meter, we'll certainly let you know, but in the meantime, please keep play-testing, and continue to give us your thoughts. So, I stick by my guns that it is people like the OP that have caused this update to be delayed as much as it has. The "issues" that they want to address properly... most probably the single target vs area target issue that Aerilik put into test the week after that. The change WILL come, reguardless of what is said on the forums, because indeed it is needed for the long term health of the game. __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-10-2009, 12:37 PM	#15
Vain Lord Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 190	Freliant wrote: This is a misconception... Trash can be tanked in offensive mode... specially if its "weak" trash. We are talking about Tanking raid mobs, where you have to stay alive for more than 10 seconds. In offensive, you can put out just enough dps to keep the mob on you long enough for the big hitters to destroy it. If you are a heavy dps fighter class, like the zerker, sk or bruiser/monk, then you can keep agro even longer than that... but ALL fighters, will need to get in defensive for the real hard encounters and definately for raids. The other misconception is that "hard encounters" are always going to be "hard encounters". Progression eventually trivializes most, if not all, encounters. If progression doesn't, familiarity with an encounter does. I think that most decent tanks know when defensive stance is required and when it isn't. They also know that, at a certain point, a group/raid force is going to be able to handle all of the tricks an encounter can throw at them to warrant tanking in offensive stance - whether or not the additional dps is significant. Thus, the tank makes use of their grey matter to judge which stance is a viable tanking stance and goes from there. Who cares if you can tank in offensive post changes on a 5-10 second fight? It's not really "tanking" if the mob is on the swashie or the wizard, now is it? Even if it dies before the squishy. What the re-vamp does is constrain tanks - it does the thinking for them. Future re-vamps will continue along these same routes. Having the development team decide that we need new direction for our toons and introduce mechanisms that take the thinking out of it will, in no way, shape or form, improve the game. It will dumb it down. It will cater to the lowest common denominator.

03-10-2009, 12:43 PM	#16
Dreco Server: Permafrost Guild: League of the Extraordinary Rank: MEN-AT-ARMS Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 47	Vain wrote: What the re-vamp does is constrain tanks - it does the thinking for them. Future re-vamps will continue along these same routes. Having the development team decide that we need new direction for our toons and introduce mechanisms that take the thinking out of it will, in no way, shape or form, improve the game. It will dumb it down. It will cater to the lowest common denominator. QFEBut Freliant doesn't understand this

03-10-2009, 12:57 PM	#17
Freliant Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,016	Dreco@Permafrost wrote: Vain wrote: What the re-vamp does is constrain tanks - it does the thinking for them. Future re-vamps will continue along these same routes. Having the development team decide that we need new direction for our toons and introduce mechanisms that take the thinking out of it will, in no way, shape or form, improve the game. It will dumb it down. It will cater to the lowest common denominator. QFEBut Freliant doesn't understand this Tanking is not just taunting, and if you think that is all there is to tanking... I can see that you don't know the tank class at all. __________________ "Change is inevitable" - AM Sephastus 80 Wizard - Retired Onosphire 80 Guardian- Retired

03-10-2009, 01:02 PM	#18
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Freliant wrote: Tanking is not just taunting, and if you think that is all there is to tanking... I can see that you don't know the tank class at all. Oddly, it kinda seems that SOE thinks otherwise, which IIRC is the entire point of the adverse reaction they're getting. __________________

03-10-2009, 01:08 PM	#19
Vain Lord Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 190	Freliant wrote: Tanking is not just taunting, and if you think that is all there is to tanking... I can see that you don't know the tank class at all. As much as I'd like to ensure the viability of "tank" classes in heroic instances, any class can body pull, plenty of them can lock down adds, and many, many more can hold aggro and position a mob just right. Hell, clothies can take as many hits in many cases (lol_dispersion) I mean, the art of body pulling is a lost art. I can send (and often do) a dirge in to make pulls for me, just for fun. There aren't many places where body pulling is a challenge and where it is, simply becoming familiar with a zone makes it a cinch. So, yes, I'd like to think tanking is far more than taunting. The re-vamp, however, really doesn't back that up.

03-10-2009, 02:12 PM	#20
Kiara Community Relations Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 4,359	We have so many of these floating around. Please keep the feedback in already active threads. Thank you!