Can "normal" long term players stop being penalised ?

[Antryg Mistrose]

A bit emotive, but some of the more recent changes are just annoying.

Say you were level capped on each char for every expansion - you are now on about 170ish AA, unless you:

• Mentor a boxed/guildmate/alt - lets be honest thats how it happens mostly - its not newbies getting mentored
• Run around grinding grey quests
• Levelled a new char, taking advantage of the fact you can actually get AA's at low levels

How about you reward long term players instead of penalising us?  Or, heaven forbid - release enough quests or adjust AA gain levels so you CAN get there on current content without mindless repetition

[Jesdyr]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

mindless repetition

That is the CORE of MMOGs ..

[Mytilma]

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

mindless repetition

That is the CORE of badly designed MMOGs ..

fixed that for you

[Jesdyr]

Mytilma wrote:

fixed that for you

So .. they are all badly designed ?

Most of the time they just throw some new paint on old designs. How many games have you seen the "kill ten rats" quest every other quest !

[Tary]

Every MMO I've ever played must've been badly designed then, including EQ1.

They are "mindless" repetition.  There's no escaping the fact that behind all the game mechanics, the goal is to level up (or raise your skills in some cases) by killing mobs.  Once that's bee accomplished, and while you're killing mob after mob after mob, you kill some more mobs to get your gear.

For some reason, though, it's satisfying.

[Mytilma]

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

So .. they are all badly designed ?

Most of the time they just throw some new paint on old designs. How many games have you seen the "kill ten rats" quest every other quest !

Yes, all MMOGs can be reduced to repetition. A well designed MMOG, however, does its best to conceal this fact. A badly designed MMOG does not, thus making the repetition "mindless".

[Tary]

Mytilma wrote:

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

So .. they are all badly designed ?

Most of the time they just throw some new paint on old designs. How many games have you seen the "kill ten rats" quest every other quest !

Yes, all MMOGs can be reduced to repetition. A well designed MMOG, however, does its best to conceal this fact. A badly designed MMOG does not, thus making the repetition "mindless".

Name one that has cleverly masked the fact that you're constantly killing X to gain levels/skills.

Or one that doesn't seem like mindless repetition.  I've never seen such a thing.

[Detor]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

A bit emotive, but some of the more recent changes are just annoying.

Say you were level capped on each char for every expansion - you are now on about 170ish AA, unless you:

• Mentor a boxed/guildmate/alt - lets be honest thats how it happens mostly - its not newbies getting mentored
• Run around grinding grey quests
• Levelled a new char, taking advantage of the fact you can actually get AA's at low levels

How about you reward long term players instead of penalising us?  Or, heaven forbid - release enough quests or adjust AA gain levels so you CAN get there on current content without mindless repetition

I think the bigger issue rather than number of AAs that you have is either the 170 requirement for that last line of AAs in TSO, or perhaps more to do with the mobs that are tuned to 200AA characters (example: the 12k DPS requirement in Mystmor Manor for Curator)

That's not to say that I would turn down an increase in the rate you gain AAs by killing.  Shard quests have slowed to 5% of an AA and I'm only around ~155 AAs, so they're not really viable to getting to 200.

There is an interesting design difference between EQ1 and EQ2's AAs though.  In EQ2 the last few AAs you get give you your biggest boost.  That's why everybody wants to get over 170 AAs - because of that last line of TSO AAs.  In EQ1 you didn't have that pressure pushing you - you spent X points to get your key AAs that had the biggest gains, THEN you went back and got all the lesser AAs for minor improvements.  If only they didn't have that requirement that you spend 170 points before unlocking that last line of TSO AAs.  I think far less people would be asking for more content to raise AAs then because they'd be more content with just letting the AA's occur naturally since each AA would only be a minor improvement after you got your bigger AAs.

[Zarador]

I'm not so sure that there is a way to design a game that will provide "satisfaction" for the masses. We have far more content than kill 10 rats, although a lot of the game is based on that.

There are several zones for each tier where one can go for a refreshed sense of scenery, yet so many players still level up near to cap as quickly as possible using the "tried and true" routes.

Ask them about dungeons and often the reply is "they drop garbage loot in there".  Forget doing a dungeon for the "fun" of it, there has to be more.

Ask them about Signature Quests and Heritage Quests?  Unless the item at the end is something I can't do without, why bother.  It might be fun, but I'm here for progress.

Talk about going back to a revamped zone like Everfrost where the rewards are rather decent.  Forget that, I can get "such and such" by doing [insert zone] in 1/10th the time.

I happen to be one of those "long time players" with several alternates and a old "Main" that is low on "AA". I can't say that I really expect them to keep adding tons of additional methods to gain "AA" when the current quests are already in place and not being used by many players, even the ones just starting. Already we have posts about players who recently started and missed a ton of "AA" because of the new fast leveling.

If they designed what the OP suggests to facilitate the players that missed out on "AA", then the newer players would simply wait intil the 70's to start the "AA" grind thus passing by even more T1-T7 Content.  It's really a "Catch 22" if you think about it.  We even have players now in other threads complaining that they should not have to do the RoK content for "AA"; TSO is where they want to be.

[Tary]

They should take EQ1's system, merge it with EQ2's, and then everyone would be happy.

You'd grind as many quests as you could up to 80 (if you're smart), then you'd turn the slider all the way to AA and grind out the remaining.  Don't make it too fast, but it should be fast enough to allow people to actually perceive mob-grinding as a viable method by which to acquire aa's.  Forcing people to stay in low level content, or go back to it when it's long-greyed out, is bad design.

[Brinelan]

So the new lavastorm soloquest area isnt what your asking for?  jeez if you want to be spoonfed your aa when you log in just ask for that.  People wanted more quests, people wanted to ahve old zones revamped, they are doing that with the lavastorm revamp and people area still whining how it isnt enough.

<-- soe job apps are that way, apply so you can show them how to make a mmo, because the OP apprently knows more then they do.

[Jesdyr]

Taryth wrote:

Or one that doesn't seem like mindless repetition.  I've never seen such a thing.

They are the "easy" ones. They focus more on player interactions than player levels/stats. This could be purely social or PvP interaction. The problem is ... it is not what most people want in a MMOG. You can get a better social aspect from Social networking sites or chat rooms and you can get better PvP from FPS or RTS style games that are designed with PvP at thier core. 

MMOGs are a weird thing when you think about it. The only way to really enjoy them is to not think about what you are doing and just have fun playing with other people. I use to call UO a graphical IRC where you can kill stuff... and really that is all it was

[Faenril]

To the OP: What about giving AA XP boost potions /claim rewards for veteran players ? The older the account/toons, the more AA potions you get and the more powerful they are. That would help long term players who are often gimped on AAs to catch up ? The first who brings station cash in here I punch him

[Mytilma]

Oh noes, someone discovered, that most quests can basically be reduced to "kill ten rats"! Which I don't dispute, mind you, but what comes next? Does somebody discover, that everything you do on PvE servers is pretty much playing whack-a-mole with a random number generator? Or that all MMOG players are basically little girls, who like nothing more than dressing their dolls? Why are we still playing? On a more serious note, I don't mind killing ten rats over and over again. Given that the rats come in different disguises (i.e. as other mobs with different abilities). And are found in different places, with different mobs to dodge (or kill as well), and giving different, but desirable reward. That's why I play. I know that I kill ten rats all over again. And I know I am playing whack-a-mole. But long as the repetitive-ness is cleverly coated, and it remains halfway a challenge (which rules out green and grey stuff btw) I will continue to play. I know it's not a good analogy, but look at chess. It's always the same 64 squares and 32 pieces, coming in 2 different colors and 6 different types. But everyone familiar with chess knows, that out of this standard setup can evolve many different and very exciting games.

[Jesdyr]

Faenril@Nagafen wrote:

The first who brings station cash in here I punch him

OK ... LoN loot card potions !

[Antryg Mistrose]

Lavastorm isn't live.  From what i've seen on test I can hardly see it having 30 more AA levels worth of quests anyway.

I have played this game for 4 years  - Prismatics check, Claymore - check - done of 4 chars, Swords of Destiny check.  I simply resent there not being enough current content in this expansion to get to the cap.

[Eugam]

Taryth wrote:

Every MMO I've ever played must've been badly designed then, including EQ1.

The sad truth is that EQ2 once was quite well balanced in terms of exp progression and itemization.

However, i agree with the OP. I have 4 lvl80 but since TSO gave up on all but my main. There is not enough content worth AA exp and i think the Lavastorm revamp wont help much. The game also seems to die and i wont spend any time into any alt under the current conditions.

Another thing is the low AA exp gain when grouping. I was in Seb: CoA yesterday and the whole zone is like 3%. I only went there to group, i have no business there. If i mentor down and do an instances its maybe 25%. And LFG "i ll mentor" is all i can do currently while doing some old grey quests. But the playerbase is allready saturated and in raid mode. No groups going weekdays.

[feldon30]

AA comes from discovering new areas, killing names you've never killed before, and doing quests. There is little to be had from doing dungeons you've already done before. The combat XP -> AA XP conversion rate works out to such a miniscule amount that watching the progress bar is like watching paint dry. I have 173 AAs and I am only about 1/3 of the way through the Moors content. I have done everything in Jarsath Wastes, all of the solo quests in Kunzar Jungle, every quest in Kylong Plains and Fens of Nathsar. I will be going to the starter zone Timorous Deep to do the level 10-20 quests there. They gave 3-4 AA XP each to my level 79 Conjy. I already went and did all the Everfrost grey quests. That was about 50 quests each awarding 2-5% AA XP. My quest journal is about to roll over 1100 completed quests. Once I finish the Moors content, I'll do the new Lavastorm content and probably reach 178 AAs or so. Then I'll be kinda stuck. I guess I can do more HQs, Nek Castle 2 (50), Nek Castle 3 (70), and perhaps some other dungeons I haven't done yet. I don't know how anyone is supposed to reach 200 AAs.

[Lethe5683]

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

Mytilma wrote:

fixed that for you

So .. they are all badly designed ?

Yes...

[Gilasil]

I've been gradually grinding my way up in AAs by doing the repeatable quests in Moors which give AA.  Slow but I manage a couple AAs a week.  Takes about an hour a day and I get a little cash in the process (also faction until I maxed it out).  I can do many of them in conjunction with writs.

Yea it's a grind (for an hour a day anyway) but it'll get me there.

If I could get equivalent AA by doing a solo shard dungeons that would be utterly fantastic but even without I'll get there.

[Tary]

If you don't raid, you really don't need 200 aa's.  Everybody seems to think that max aa's should be attainable easily by everyone...that's obviously not how the devs have envisioned the system.  They've balanced this expansion on AA's and how many of them you have- the new x2 instance is ba;anced for people with 175+ aa's, some raid gear, and masters.

You can get max aa's without raiding, but it will be difficult.  Be thankful that you actually can, instead of being locked into thye raiding path.

Solo/group players should have extreme difficulty getting beyond 180 aa's, in my experience.  I know quite a few people who have 195-199 aa, and a few who have 200 (all in a raid guild).I don't raid anymore, and I'll be pleased if I get to 180+.

[Azekah1]

pvp ftw : )

[Mishkel]

Taryth wrote:

Mytilma wrote:

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

So .. they are all badly designed ?

Most of the time they just throw some new paint on old designs. How many games have you seen the "kill ten rats" quest every other quest !

Yes, all MMOGs can be reduced to repetition. A well designed MMOG, however, does its best to conceal this fact. A badly designed MMOG does not, thus making the repetition "mindless".

Name one that has cleverly masked the fact that you're constantly killing X to gain levels/skills.

Or one that doesn't seem like mindless repetition.  I've never seen such a thing.

Then you have either never found a game you really enjoyed or missed out on a few.

At the core of any MMORPG they are all based on repetitive actions.

I have played games where it didn't feel that way.  While other games (such as eq2) feel very much that way.

I guess my most basic feeling on it is:

There are games where you advance by playing, and there are games you play to advance.

On the user end it does actually feel very different.  While asking someone to "name one" is most likely not going to work.  Games are a very subjective creation and there are probably people who play EQ2 and think everything feels just fine in terms of game play.

[Brook]

Can I please be spoonfed AA for logging in?

Whats so hard about letting me have that?

That such a great idea, then new folks could log in and in a months time get to the end and leave..the best part is that they will tell everyone how awesome it was and you will get more customers to come play for a month and tell their friends!

SOE gets to save money on advertising which means more money for development in finding faster ways of getting to end game, and we win because we can do lvl 80 and 200 AA in a month or even less.. what could be better?

You sure you really want that?

You cant say that it cant be done with current content because people are doing it already. Why do we need to have everything handed to us? Why do we play again? I wonder.

Only bad thing about a post like this is some idiot might come along and think its actually a good idea, the world is full of stupid people.

[Antryg Mistrose]

feldon30 wrote:

I have 173 AAs and I am only about 1/3 of the way through the Moors content.   ......each to my level 79 Conjy......

Thats my point.  I DID KP, Kunzar Jungle, J.Wastes WHEN THEY WERE CURRENT CONTENT, and my chars were all level 80/80/400/140 prior to this expansion.