Knights Stance ninja Nerf

[Niou]

From 25 to 15 Bonus. I understand that you are in the middle of trying to nerf down Shadow Knights. This change however effects both Crusaders heavily. For the first time in a very long time, Crusaders were able to compete with Guardians and Zerkers in terms of DPS.

This is the single best ability given to Paladins in this entire expansion. While everyone else shot up in performance, Paladin's were given the short end of the stick with a useless stoneskin that nobody uses and a small dmg/heal ability. If you're trying to nerf down SK's more, than do it with other ability's. If you're trying to nerf down Paladin's, it begs the question why? You've taken away our purpose in raids. You've given us nothing in comparison to the other fighters and we're quickly becoming an endangered class.

If you want to see Paladin's in your game what so ever, I suggest you stop trying to find ways to make them quit. We're already one of the rarest classes seen in both PvP and PvE. That will go down even further with the loss of amends and a raid position. You've made us single target tanks without the defensive capability's of Guardians and now you're taking away a very large ability that contributes to our DPS.

Stop.

[therodge]

I am basically a Sony Fanboi i genrally support soe in 99% of their decitions and the ones i dont i either politly disagree or just shut up about. i supported the hate changes i supported the fighter changes, but really this one has gone to far for me. I am an 80 paladin i survived through LU 13 i survived through DoF but sony you take away my toy, you take away my class flavor, fine, you give me crap tso AAs (and i seen what we had in beta, and it was nice 75% aoe auta attack and 15% flurry yeah i seen that) fine, ill live.  i had only 2 tso aas i have really looked forward too 2 and you nerfed my favorite one seriously i am possibly the most loyal customer you may ever have, im not gonna quit over this, but i cant take much more.

[Nuhus]

Sadly they have nerfed a lot of AA lines and classes this round.

[DMIstar]

I like how this was said to be solely directed at SK's but it is not, Look at your other changes thad did not make it on notes side. Same rounds where put in that we got.

[Bruener]

The change sucks period for Crusaders.  However, you throwing it out there that SKs should be a target and leave Paladins out of it...well the fact is Paladins DPS just as well as SKs.  I know I see it.  So spare me this "woe I am a Paladin" because spec'd the same, geared the same, and running with the same group Paladins will do 95%+ the DPS that the SK does.

That being said.  This change is amazing that it went into affect so fast.  Warriors hung onto the buckler line for like 3 years before it was completely changed....even in RoK they got 60% DA from the line which was still extremely good.  And Crusaders got theirs nerfed, in what...2 months?

The ability is extremely nice.  Whether it is OP'd or not depends on how you want to look at fighters.  If you think all fighters should be shelved into defensive stance while tanking, and tanking primarly through taunts, while maintaining dps less than priests...than yes I guess it was OP'd.  If you think fighters should be versatile and contribute a descent amount of DPS to raids since they are fighting for spots on raids with classes that bring way more to the table than a 3rd or 4th fighter through debuffs or buffs and DPS T1 and T2 dps...than NO this ability was not OP'd.

With the changes we know which side of this argument Aeralik sits on...too bad all the other fighters and a good portion of the player base are on the other side.

[Santi Dominiti]

This change might do it for me. Doing dps was making this game fun, and even saying that I was willing to deal with do craptastic dps in def. stance as long as while I am in off. stance I can do good dps, and now your chopping 10% off from my main hand dmg. Grats on making this LU even worse.... I am a pally btw

and yes I know 10% main hand dmg doesnt = 10% more dps

[BMonkeeus]

SOE and EQ2 devs can officially kiss my  (a r s e) now. Times are tight now financially and only getting worse. I'm on a paper thin budget as it is, props for making at least one decision a little easier, two accounts less to pay for...

[Elanjar]

Paladins should not compete with zerkers on dps. SK's should. Paladins should compete with guards. Guards do too much dps compared to their counterpart.

How this effects that ability change I dont know cause I dont play a pally. :-/

[Zibleez]

Santi Dominiti wrote:

Doing dps was making this game fun, and even saying that I was willing to deal with do craptastic dps in def.

Roll a scout or a brawler?

[Kordran]

Bruener wrote:

The change sucks period for Crusaders.  However, you throwing it out there that SKs should be a target and leave Paladins out of it...well the fact is Paladins DPS just as well as SKs.  I know I see it.  So spare me this "woe I am a Paladin" because spec'd the same, geared the same, and running with the same group Paladins will do 95%+ the DPS that the SK does.

Absolutely untrue. Sure, you can find the individual Paladin here and there who can put out some exceptional damage, but the average damage output for the average Paladin is significantly lower than the average damage output for a similarly geared Shadowknight, on the order of 30% or so. If you see an SK only doing 5% more damage than a Paladin with all other things being relatively equal, that SK doesn't know how to play their class very well (e.g.: their casting order and rotation is off, they're not timing their attacks or something along those lines; whatever the particular issue is, something is wrong with how they're playing their SK, I guarantee it).

[DMIstar]

Kordran wrote:

Bruener wrote:

The change sucks period for Crusaders.  However, you throwing it out there that SKs should be a target and leave Paladins out of it...well the fact is Paladins DPS just as well as SKs.  I know I see it.  So spare me this "woe I am a Paladin" because spec'd the same, geared the same, and running with the same group Paladins will do 95%+ the DPS that the SK does.

Absolutely untrue. Sure, you can find the individual Paladin here and there who can put out some exceptional damage, but the average damage output for the average Paladin is significantly lower than the average damage output for a similarly geared Shadowknight, on the order of 30% or so. If you see an SK only doing 5% more damage than a Paladin with all other things being relatively equal, that SK doesn't know how to play their class very well (e.g.: their casting order and rotation is off, they're not timing their attacks or something along those lines; whatever the particular issue is, something is wrong with how they're playing their SK, I guarantee it).

Ehh if you take an average paly and average sk both at same gear and the pally is putting out 30% less that means the pally is a below average player period.. Theres no reason for there to be that much desparity between the two, since the game doesnt give it.

[Santi Dominiti]

Dhuin@Mistmoore wrote:

Santi Dominiti wrote:

Doing dps was making this game fun, and even saying that I was willing to deal with do craptastic dps in def.

Roll a scout or a brawler?

If I wanted to play one of those classes I would .. but the thing is I dont I like being able to tank anything in the game along with being able to dp dps when you dont need 2 tanks. By taking away my dps in off stance you are effectively making paladins even more situation tanks, and after the LU there is NO encounter where you would not take a guard over a pally.

[Kordran]

Istar@Mistmoore wrote:

Ehh if you take an average paly and average sk both at same gear and the pally is putting out 30% less that means the pally is a below average player period.. Theres no reason for there to be that much desparity between the two, since the game doesnt give it.

Right, because Paladins are loaded up with DoTs, lifetaps and spells like Death Touch. The Paladin is more defensive, and their abilities are focused on keeping them alive; the SK is geared towards dealing damage. It's why people play SKs to begin with; if there wasn't a DPS discrepecy in favor of the SK, why in the world would anyone even play one since they'd have more survivability as a Paladin?

Edit: In any case, this is all beside the point. It's clear that they've borked both Crusaders with this round of changes.

[Detor]

Araris@Venekor wrote:

From 25 to 15 Bonus. I understand that you are in the middle of trying to nerf down Shadow Knights. This change however effects both Crusaders heavily. For the first time in a very long time, Crusaders were able to compete with Guardians and Zerkers in terms of DPS.

This is the single best ability given to Paladins in this entire expansion. While everyone else shot up in performance, Paladin's were given the short end of the stick with a useless stoneskin that nobody uses and a small dmg/heal ability. If you're trying to nerf down SK's more, than do it with other ability's. If you're trying to nerf down Paladin's, it begs the question why? You've taken away our purpose in raids. You've given us nothing in comparison to the other fighters and we're quickly becoming an endangered class.

If you want to see Paladin's in your game what so ever, I suggest you stop trying to find ways to make them quit. We're already one of the rarest classes seen in both PvP and PvE. That will go down even further with the loss of amends and a raid position. You've made us single target tanks without the defensive capability's of Guardians and now you're taking away a very large ability that contributes to our DPS.

Stop.

They changed paladin AoE's as well (same reduction as shadowknight eg 27% on some abilities) and attributed that to the shadowknight class only in update notes as well.  (although I don't think Knight's Stance was mentioned at all for either class).

I don't think the developer making these changes realizes paladins and shadowknights shared these AAs, or that they shared those spells they reduced.  This next update sure is going to make normal instances slower, and make some fights impossible for groups that previously could do them reliably.  Examples:

Norian Deathblow - 8,500DPS requirement.  With the reduction to DPS for tanks, illusionists, conjurors, and numerous other changes for various classes (plus, the impending proc change), that's a very high requirement for a named that is meant to be 1 grouped.

Eidolon of Depravity - 7,500DPS requirement.  That one might be more doable, but for a lot of groups without that tank DPS it's going to be much more difficult.

Ra'Zul the Gallery Curator - 12,000DPS requirement.  This one is luckily optional and doesn't stop you from going further in zone when you can't do him.  Plus, his high DPS requirement meant that already most groups I've seen can't do him.  That's what makes him different from the other two - the other two I can see groups that previously could do them by pushing themselves, but after the upcoming DPS reductions to tanks and various mages (only scouts are coming out unscathed it seems) I can see those same groups completely unable to do the other two named listed.

[Maveric_LOL]

This nerf and the nerf to paladin aoes, is completly un accetable. Reverse these changes now, I personally have had enough. I refuse to continue if this is how are going to be treated, we have already suffered enough from the dps hit we are going to take with the new defensive stance with its skill penalties and dmg modifier, this is too much.

Failure to reverse it will result in me shelving completly for the first time a paladin that i have played every day since day launch day.

That statement was not meant as a threat, and is not the result of me throwing a tantrum it is quite simply, a statment of fact, at this point i really dont care anymore.

Its a shame really, i have always raided my paladin and he is well geared and i have put a lot of time and effort into him, but here lately its getting to the point where every day i log onto test in fear to see what else has been nerfed, ripped out of us, marganalised or broken.

 I feel betrayed, and most of all angry because i am now being penalised for my own success, work hard get high end gear improve your class...then get nerfed because of it. Shameful.

The loss of one tank, probably wont be felt that much, but rest assured if you think the losses will stop here i suspect you are sadly mistaken. These changes are driving away tanks of all forms, even in the days leading up to LU 13 i dont think people were this angry. Anyway, time will tell.

minima maxima sunt,ut sementem feceris ita metes.

[Kordran]

Also, the difference with LU13 was that it was a broad-based change in game mechanics. It was a complete overhaul of the combat/spell systems in the game, and touched just about everything. GU51 is something that's more narrowly focused on a particular group of classes and who knows what the long term effect is going to be. In the end, the changes they made with LU13 worked out; but the first few months were pretty rough. I remember people laughing (in a pained sort of way) how the mobs on the island were one-shotting new players. The law of unintended consequences is going to be in full force here, and I expect things are going to get worse before they get better. Of course, it could be argued that in 2005, before the game was even a year old, they could afford to make the kind of gamble that they did with LU13. Today, with a mature game that's over 4 years old and a smaller playerbase? I just don't know.

I said this a long time ago: if these changes cumulatively result in a reduction of the number of players willing and interested in tanking, it's going to have a broad, negative effect on all players. I suspect that most players on every server can attest to the difficulty in finding a solid tank. If the tank population shrinks as a result of these changes, it will make things miserable for a lot of other players; and people don't tend to pay $15/month to stand around for hours on end spamming chat channels in the hopes of running an instance.

[Boli32]

Santi Dominiti wrote:

This change might do it for me. Doing dps was making this game fun, and even saying that I was willing to deal with do craptastic dps in def. stance as long as while I am in off. stance I can do good dps, and now your chopping 10% off from my main hand dmg. Grats on making this LU even worse.... I am a pally btw

and yes I know 10% main hand dmg doesnt = 10% more dps

Speaking as a Paladin.

Actually its closer to 10% than you realise... some of my best parses are upwards of 70% autoattack; and if I had speced the 40% AoE Autoattack it woud have been higher.

The 10% reduction in autoattack hurts paladins dps prob as much as the 10% reduction in SK dps plus the heavy handed reduction in spells... when you consider that our biggest CAs is: (@ M1, STR 1133, CA+300)

Cleave Faith (which ironically says "powerful" in the description) 647-1019 damage

We do have a more powerful spell called refusal of Atonement, but that only ranks up 1.8k-2.8k; the rest of our CAs and spells tend into the 600-900 range; I actually had a natter to our mystic who laughed his head off when I told him how much our CAs actually hit for.

Honestly... if you really REALLY wanted to change this - make it so that instead of 1hander with a shield.. .make it so we do additional damage with a TWOHANDED weapon - because even with this change my mythical+shield is better dps than my best twohander.

[Kurindor_Mythecnea]

Too many ninja nerfs make your consumers lose confidence in developer/designer oversight and understanding. The SK's coil DOT was also ninja nerfed, like this AA.

* EDIT * I also remember reading another mention how our Hate endline was also ninja nerfed (on terms of damage), though I'm not sure on this.

[vodooman]

Agreed 100%.

They need to stop nerfing the Crusaders.  We have been the bottom of the barrel for several expansions.  We finally get our much needed love last expansion and with TSO, and now come the nerfbats.

Are you serious?

Let us play our game.

This is a game.  With the world in financial turmoil, allow us a brief enjoyment as we escape into Norrath please.

[Faelgalad]

Could we get the Vanguard Class Dev please?

He did a good Job with Vanguard Paladins, can compete well with Warriors there.

Paladins had an useful ability, the sky is falling.

Guards and Zerks had three Years of 60% double attack and even shields specially designed for this achivement.

Warriors should be better in some areas, Crusaders better in the other. Right now, post gu51, I don't see an Area where an Paladin is better then others.

So, give me candy, or I look for an other seller.

[Kahling]

I just wanted to register my displeasure with the nerfs to Knights Stance and doom rays.

Doom rays recast is 2 mins, it does not warrent a nerf from 3K max damage right down to 2K (thats 1/3rd, thats huge)  If the recast was the same as our other aoe's then fair enough but it isnt.  If this reduction in damge is to remain then its recast needs to be set to match it.  Circle of conviction and Circular smite recast are 30 seconds, doom rays with 2K damage should have a recast of 30 seconds now. 

Knights stance was something that Paladins were asking for for a long long time, the argument then that is still valid today was that to do our best dps pre TSO we had to have a 2 hander and using a 2 hander wasnt very good for survival.  You fixed that with this AA line.  It is now broken again.  15% is too low looking at the numbers.  At least change this to 20% as a compromise.

I am looking forward to the hate changes to be honest, I always felt that people complaining were jumping the gun a little in some of the stuff chucked about on these forums recently but I feel the changes to Knights Stance and Doom rays are ill thought out, especially when added to glorious strike moving to the stances and producing no dps using defensive stance but that's fair enough.  The changes to Knights stance and doom rays effects overall dps in any stance.

I would also like to point out that with the above came the removal of the -10% spell damage while an sk is in defensive stance.  IE for SK's you took a little and gave a little.  This I am also confused about as you hurt Crusaders in general with the changes but bolstered the sk at the same time.  Was this the way it was desired?  Were Paladins doing more dps than SK's?  I doubt it.  (BTW I am not asking for an SK nerf here, I never ask for a nerf of any class I dont play when I dont have the full picture worked out I preffere boosts to other classes to match)

I really was on board with the changes untill the above happened to be honest.  Dont get me wrong Ill get over it.  I am still looking forward to the overall package.  But I couldnt of gone on without registering my complaint at the above, esp with Knights Stance being only 2 month old and something Crusaders needed for years.

Regards

Kahling

[Bruener]

Kahling@Kithicor wrote:

I would also like to point out that with the above came the removal of the -10% spell damage while an sk is in defensive stance.  IE for SK's you took a little and gave a little.  This I am also confused about as you hurt Crusaders in general with the changes but bolstered the sk at the same time.  Was this the way it was desired?  Were Paladins doing more dps than SK's?  I doubt it.  (BTW I am not asking for an SK nerf here, I never ask for a nerf of any class I dont play when I dont have the full picture worked out I preffere boosts to other classes to match)

I just wanted to respond to you in this post and explain why.  The way I see it is the SK received more of a penalty going into their defensive stance since this -10% base spell damage was in addition to the negatives that the other tanks were seeing.  This would be eqyivalent to the other fighters receiving a -10% base CA damage on top of their stances.

Also, SOE trying to toss a bone since SKs are going through some major nerfs.  What is funny is that DPS in defensive becomes negligible and is not even needed for what that stance is designed for...tanking.  They have beefed taunts up beyond God and nerfed DPS in half at least.  This, on top of the fact that SOE is going to change how Procs work, which is the second most important part of a SKs dps, this will really mean very little as far as adding back to SK dps in defensive.  Go figure, nerf a crap load, toss something back that is very minor and really doesn't do much as a token...doesn't that sound exactly like SOE?

The fact is both Crusaders going into defensive stance already lose a ton of DPS.  The change to Knights stance is a terrible nerf in both offensive stance (yes where fighters should be doing great DPS) and in defensive stance where DPS becomes even more negligible.

Anyway that is why you see that being put back on.

[Kahling]

Lets hope so, taking that back to 25% and taking doom rays to a 30 second recast would make me very happy and ready for the changes tbh.

[Detor]

Kahling@Kithicor wrote:

Lets hope so, taking that back to 25% and taking doom rays to a 30 second recast would make me very happy and ready for the changes tbh.

The Knight's Stance if enough people drive home how big a point it is for paladins might get reverted back to the way it was, but the Doom Rays thing - they don't reduce what a spell can do by 1/3rd for any other reason than to reduce the DPS of paladins and shadowknights.  They aren't going to reduce the reuse because that would defeat the point of them having just chopped off nearly a third of the DPS of that spell for paladins/shadowknights.

[Maveric_LOL]

*bump*

Cause this is too big a deal to just let the topic die down.

[EvilAstroboy]

Yeah this really is rediculous. How do you propose that crusaders hold a valid raid spot while not tanking now? We dont have dual wield and all the two handers are generally junk. You need to either:

A) Reinstate the stance value of 25B) Make it so the piddly 15 we get can apply to two handers like the shaman aa allows (hell they even get DA as well).C) Allow us to dual wield to make up the discrepency

Or just scrap this whole change. Just change the taunts so they do more threat and make defensive stance more viable. The rest of the changes are just silly.

[docpaulp]

Extremeley weird, almost eperimental behaviour from SoE lately.

Proc item nerfs, people moan, they revert it

Avatar loot nerf, people moan, probably not enough (yet) to warrant a reversion (yet)

Fighter changes (nerf...) , people moan, most of it is reverted

Now this..

For real, i feel like a lab rat in some social experiment now.

[Loxus]

This needs to be bumped back up to 25% without a doubt even if it's only active in Offensive.  You are stripping any reason for a crusader to be on a raid other than MT/OT; the 2 tank concept again.  Great Idea for min/maxing but doesn't do anything for peeps playing crusaders who want to raid.  To put it simplily, you're undoing one of the items you wished to fix with crusaders in the first place and removing them (both of them now) from deserving a raid slot.

We're not asking to do Scout dps in offensive, we're not scouts; we understand.  I don't care what my dps is in Defensive when I'm tanking.  The question is, what's the purpose of crusaders (tanks actually) in raid OUTSIDE of tanking?  Maybe that's being selfish since other classes aren't asking for a secondary purpose.  However, if you have 6 wizards on a raid, it can still be a very productive raid.  If you have 6 Pallys, then what?

It's sad that this question even needs to be asked, but SOE insists on setting raids up with 1 major mob target that only needs 1 tank instead of a balanced 4 group of raiders where every class gets an equal need and use.  Would these raids be difficult to build, script and program... Heck yeah!  But they would be fair to the player base.  Instead SOE chooses to take the easy way out and drop 1 mob in with a huge amount of hit points and some flashy "oops, you all die" focus damage  proc and calls it good.  Then they sit back and wonder why the player base wants to hang them in effigy when the players can't get their dps numbers up.

The sisters and Meastro in SOH and 2nd mob in tomb of the mad crusader are a great examples of a start in the right direction.

I'm sorry to go off on raiding because it's not just about raiding.  Group content is also extremely important but the dynamics of the class interactions aren't as complex as they are with raiding but still very important.  I think if you built raids on a balanced 4 group consept, the war of Group VS Raid would melt away.

[Bruener]

Loxus@Everfrost wrote:

This needs to be bumped back up to 25% without a doubt even if it's only active in Offensive.  You are stripping any reason for a crusader to be on a raid other than MT/OT; the 2 tank concept again.  Great Idea for min/maxing but doesn't do anything for peeps playing crusaders who want to raid.  To put it simplily, you're undoing one of the items you wished to fix with crusaders in the first place and removing them (both of them now) from deserving a raid slot.

We're not asking to do Scout dps in offensive, we're not scouts; we understand.  I don't care what my dps is in Defensive when I'm tanking.  The question is, what's the purpose of crusaders (tanks actually) in raid OUTSIDE of tanking?  Maybe that's being selfish since other classes aren't asking for a secondary purpose.  However, if you have 6 wizards on a raid, it can still be a very productive raid.  If you have 6 Pallys, then what?

It's sad that this question even needs to be asked, but SOE insists on setting raids up with 1 major mob target that only needs 1 tank instead of a balanced 4 group of raiders where every class gets an equal need and use.  Would these raids be difficult to build, script and program... Heck yeah!  But they would be fair to the player base.  Instead SOE chooses to take the easy way out and drop 1 mob in with a huge amount of hit points and some flashy "oops, you all die" focus damage  proc and calls it good.  Then they sit back and wonder why the player base wants to hang them in effigy when the players can't get their dps numbers up.

The sisters and Meastro in SOH and 2nd mob in tomb of the mad crusader are a great examples of a start in the right direction.

I'm sorry to go off on raiding because it's not just about raiding.  Group content is also extremely important but the dynamics of the class interactions aren't as complex as they are with raiding but still very important.  I think if you built raids on a balanced 4 group consept, the war of Group VS Raid would melt away.

This is exactly why I get so fired up when I see the nerfs rolling in to the Crusader classes, and the entire fighter change in general.  On Live right now there is actually reason enough to bring 4 fighters in a raid.  The ones not tanking are doing descent dps and can fulfill the role of fast pick up if something does hit the fan, a nice security blanket.

On Test they are taking that away, and I think they are recognizing that now that they made the regime change.  There should be a reason to bring 4-5 fighters to a raid.  You know that you are going to have one MT, and one OT.  Now what is going to be the reasoning to bring the other 2-3 fighters.  They are stripping away being able to stance dance and being able to actually use tanking abilities while in offensive...hence diminishing the impact of the pick-up tank.  They are nerfing fighter DPS all around...yes mostly in defensive stance but also changes like Knights Stance that are an impact to offensive stance as well.

So, SOE what are you going to do to make it worth bringing 4-5 fighters in a raid?  There is only 1 encounter in game right now that needs 4 fighters...Zarrakon, so having them all do their "primary" role isn't going to cut it.  So than what is going to be the secondary role, and is it going to be good enough to drop that 2nd wizard for, or that 2nd brig, or that 3rd Assassin.  It either has to be extremely good dps in offensive, scout type dps, since tanking cannot be done in offensive or it needs to be some other form of utility.  The pick-up tank without great DPS or more utility is just not going to cut it, it might be worth bringing a 3rd fighter, but what about the 4th or 5th?

[Niou]

We still need an answer for this crap. You can't just nerf one of a Paladin's most important DPS ability's without saying anything.