Getting denied groups as a Troubador to make way for Dirges/Enchanters...

[speedycerv]

Aldelbert wrote:

Althena@Kithicor wrote:

Either:

1. You suck

2. People on your server suck.

I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?

3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.

My guild is a raid guild.  The only time they even really log on is to raid then afterwards they might stick around to form cliqs to do a few zones with and I might get one group a day before they head back to sleep or to alts.  I'm not sure how you classify this as whining when I brought up legitimate complaints.  If I could post screenshots of people's responses that a dirge/illusionist > troubador then I would.  I am posting this "in testing" because Alin's got nerfed which is a core Troubador ability on raids and in groups along with the fact the devs haven't even looked in the Troubador forums for litterally years at this point.

Is this raid guild ur in on the test server? and are being denied groups on the test server? I don't think so. I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group, and even if it was they would take me usually if a dirge wasn't easily available. A detaunt proc isn't that bad, and this poster more than likely hasn't even played on test to try it out.

[liveja]

Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:

I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group

Most of the groups I've seen doing TSO have been very melee-heavy, & I've not once ever seen a TSO group asking for a Troubie -- but quite a few of them asking for Dirges.

I don't know what it's like on the Test Server; I'm speaking of the live servers, right now. Are people forming more mage-oriented groups on the Test Server? If so, that would be helpful towards getting more groups for Troubies, but it would also raise the question of why they're forming them on Test, & not Live. IOW, what on Test has changed to make people want more mage-heavy groups? Just looking at the Test notes isn't showing anything obvious, so I'd appreciate it if a Test Server veteran could explain those things.

I'd play on Test, but I barely have time to play on my Live Server as it is.

[Kordran]

Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:

There are mages who can put out a lot of dps but they are rare. Too rare I'm afraid.

The problem isn't really so much specific encounters, where mages may be able to put out the damage. The problem is that they're not consistent against high level mobs. All it takes to put their DPS in the cellar is a string of resists, which frankly is common against level 85 heroics and raid mobs.

Casters can put out big numbers, but their performance is typically spotty, while melee is more consistent and reliable. I'm a tank, and when I put together a group it typically looks like myself, healer, dirge, chanter (usually a coercer), melee, melee (usually a swash and assassin, but it can depend on who in my guild is on at the time). Occasionally I'll take a wizard or warlock instead of one of the melee, but it's not too common. In the last month, I could count the number of times I've grouped with a troub on one hand.

[Full_Metal_Mage]

Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:

For the vast majority of heroic groups Dirge is the far better choice if taking just one of the two.

Troubador has:

1. Hate reduction (For now)

2. Aria (Casters cast spells less often than CAs are used and have no autoattack.)

3. PoM (Same as Aria.)

4. Casting skill enhancers (Useful to the 1 or 2 mages you might have.)

5. Jester cap (Only useful if you receieve it before you've used long recast abilties)

Dirge has:

1. Weapon skill enhancer (Vastly helpful to tank in defensive stance and the melee damage in the group with these mobs that are exceedingly hard to hit.)

2. Stoneskin (Exceedingly useful to the tank.)

3. Proc rate enhancer. (Can actually add more dps then Aria's for casters depending on procs.)

4. Gravitas (Always useful to the priest in the group.)

5. Melee proc (Does more damage due to melee autoattack.)

6. Chime (Same as melee proc.)

7. Hate gain for tank (For now)

None of this takes into account the Shadows AAs, which trumped Troubadours again.

My casters have autoattack. Maybe your's are broken.

[Kordran]

Full_Metal_Mage wrote:

My casters have autoattack. Maybe your's are broken.

Yeah, that extra 100 DPS from staffing the mob, can't tell you the number of times that's been the key to victory. Oh wait, sure I can. None.

[Tamar]

Ishidaa@Lucan DLere wrote:

Aldelbert wrote:

Althena@Kithicor wrote:

Either:

1. You suck

2. People on your server suck.

I'm inclined to think the latter because on Kithikor people have no problem grouping troubs - and honestly if you are in as good a guild as you imply why the hell would you bother with pick up groups?

3rd option? You're just whining trying to get others nerfed to make yourself feel better and making up this "i cant get a group due to dirge/enchanger" drama. Since you are posting on the "in testing" forums this is quite possibly the real reason.

My guild is a raid guild.  The only time they even really log on is to raid then afterwards they might stick around to form cliqs to do a few zones with and I might get one group a day before they head back to sleep or to alts.  I'm not sure how you classify this as whining when I brought up legitimate complaints.  If I could post screenshots of people's responses that a dirge/illusionist > troubador then I would.  I am posting this "in testing" because Alin's got nerfed which is a core Troubador ability on raids and in groups along with the fact the devs haven't even looked in the Troubador forums for litterally years at this point.

Is this raid guild ur in on the test server? and are being denied groups on the test server? I don't think so. I played a troub for 3 years and people would only want a dirge over me if it was a mostly melee group, and even if it was they would take me usually if a dirge wasn't easily available. A detaunt proc isn't that bad, and this poster more than likely hasn't even played on test to try it out.

People group on Test?  I'm calling BS on this pooost.

No...he, and many other non-straight DPS or chanter classes are second choice in group building.  You having a few friends who felt sorry for you and grouping you 3 years agi doesn't change the current state of T8 group makeup.

I'm not saying nerf "that class"...I am saying buff the poor troubies.

[Kordran]

Not to mention that Test is an isolated microcosm of the game that really doesn't have much to do with what's going on with the live servers. The community is miniscule, and certaintly not representative. Because a troub gets a mercy slot on Test doesn't mean that translates into a worldwide embrace of the class.

[CrazyMoogle]

Aldelbert wrote:

Here's the deal: I'm 185AA with both end line abilities in my Shadows line maxed out.  I have some VP gear, my epic (not mythical), and a mix of other fabled and legendary.  I pull about 2.5-3.5k on average on single targets and about 1.5k-2.5k on big multi-mob encounters.  I play my class to the best I can possibly do with a Jcap roatation, Maestro, running the songs the group wants, occasionally charming/mezzing on messy pulls or what not.  I do not consider myself a bad player in the slightest.  I am in a raid guild and I do not have a bad reputation as a player.

With that, why is it so [Removed for Content] hard lately for Troubadors to find a group for heroic content? Everytime I send a tell to a group LF a bard, apparently Troubadors don't count because everyone wants a [Removed for Content] Dirge.  If I try to fill a group's request for utility, I get shut down because enchanters fill that role, provide more dps, and have PoM.  My troubador is practically shelved except for raiding where my guild hopes to get my mythical soon so I'll be "useful."

This seriously how you planned this class out SoE? To be only be actually wanted if they're packing a mythical to a raid force and that's it? I've watched back to back Lord of the Rings movies and not seen one tell pop on my screen once while I had a LFG macro going with my LFG tag up.  Have we really become this worthless to players that when I respond to a group asking for a bard that we don't count as a God [Removed for Content] bard anymore!?

And now between GU51 to GU52, we're probably going to have to wait at least 4 months to even be looked at which is a big if....

Transfer to Najena and send me a tell.

[Couching]

EvilAstroboy wrote:

Troubadors are not better for Shadowknights than Dirges. Most of a Fighters DPS comes from melee autoattack, especially Crusaders with Knights Stance. My Shadowknight already has 50% cast haste, 25% reuse speed and 25% recovery. Any boosts that Troubadors once gave have become pretty trivial with the changes to the Avenger line.

If over 50% of your dps comes from melee auto attack, you are either under geared or wrong speced as a sk. For high end sk, melee auto attack is about only 30%~40% in raid no matter it's aoe or single target.

To maximum dps for sk, troubador is better than dirge.

[Full_Metal_Mage]

Kordran wrote:

Full_Metal_Mage wrote:

My casters have autoattack. Maybe your's are broken.

Yeah, that extra 100 DPS from staffing the mob, can't tell you the number of times that's been the key to victory. Oh wait, sure I can. None.

I didn't say that it represented an important damage contribution by classes that generally should try to stay out of melee range. I just said they have it.

[Lethe5683]

Welll from my experiance I don't like troubs in my group since they don't help me much and make it even harder to hold aggro if there's a wizard or warlock.  IMO the only time troub > dirge is a group with a SK tank and mostly mage DPS.

[Gisallo]

Lethe5683 wrote:

Welll from my experiance I don't like troubs in my group since they don't help me much and make it even harder to hold aggro if there's a wizard or warlock.  IMO the only time troub > dirge is a group with a SK tank and mostly mage DPS.

OMG I am going to agree with Lethe, please write down this date and time .  This is what I think it comes down to.  IF you have mostly mage dps in a group I want a troub.  Yeah he doesn't help my tank that much BUT as long as I can still hold aggro having my dps buffed ftw.  If most of my dps are melee I want a dirge no if and sor butts

[Igixnasii]

Aldelbert wrote:

With that, why is it so [Removed for Content] hard lately for Troubadors to find a group for heroic content? Everytime I send a tell to a group LF a bard, apparently Troubadors don't count because everyone wants a [Removed for Content] Dirge. If I try to fill a group's request for utility, I get shut down because enchanters fill that role, provide more dps, and have PoM. My troubador is practically shelved except for raiding where my guild hopes to get my mythical soon so I'll be "useful."

Wow really? Stupid groups.. I'll take either a troub or dirge .. usually before a chanter as a personal pref and find they both are equally valuable .. infact sometimes I'll take both over other classes.

[Melli]

I feel for the troubs - I often get the same thing on my coercer.  Folks want a 'chanter, but what they really want is an illy for the better buffs.  Troubs and coercers get the job done but many folks prefer our counterparts because they have better overall utility.  The best thing to do is just form your own groups.

Unfortunately, there is a great deal of animosity toward bards (and 'chanters for that matter) because of our raid desirability so I could imagine a huge outcry if they actually balanced the utility for troubs.  It's unfortunate because they really do some out short when stacked up against their counterpart.

[Noob1974]

First Troubs now coercer are crying for not getting groups are your server really so s....d ? I play a ranger so theres a difference between a class thats has purely dps and utility classes like troubs/ coercer. In our RF Groups we usually have troubs and i dont mind having them in a group over a dirge. I think its about time to change that not 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanter are wanted in raids. Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.

[Natthan]

Noob1974 wrote:

First Troubs now coercer are crying for not getting groups are your server really so s....d ? I play a ranger so theres a difference between a class thats has purely dps and utility classes like troubs/ coercer. In our RF Groups we usually have troubs and i dont mind having them in a group over a dirge. I think its about time to change that not 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanter are wanted in raids. Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.

You can't have it all, They already got a great debuff for raids and have awesome DPS output. I agree Fix summoners, but predators are fine, and assassins are probally a bit on the OP side.

[Noob1974]

When spoken of predator i meant my class the ranger.

[Darry]

Kordran wrote:

Kriemhild@Nagafen wrote:

I've had some mage oriented groups tearing up 40K+ DPS on nameds in TSO (in easier zones like Necrotic, Crucible, Atrebe's .etc) whereas melee DPS wouldn't be hitting nearly that high.

Your "mage oriented group" wasn't doing 40K against the Master in Crucible, considering that he reflects almost everything that is cast on him; casters are pretty much left to nuking the dogs and staffing the named, otherwise they're dead on the floor doing zero DPS.

Against level 84/85 mobs, all other things being relatively equal (e.g.: casters and melee mythicaled/mastered/fabled), melee will consistently out-damage the casters zonewide. It's something that I've seen hold true in both heroic instances and on raids.

Yup only around 20k on Master and pitiful 9k on the golem in the front of Atrebe's, even still zone wide the highest DPS I tend to be in are caster based. Unless the mob reflects a group stun/stifle twice in a row or a Bolt Of Ice, I can't see how it's possible to kill yourself when the reflect doesn't do that much damage.

[Jeepned2]

From the new post for SoE explaining the new aggro system.

" Hate gain and hate reduction were plentiful from a small number of spells.  This made it easy for many players to hit the 50% cap and have little risk from their action. Thus the values were toned down or removed from these spells in favor of new methods.  This will in turn allow us to grant these effects sparingly on items and have a meaningful effect.  In the past this was not possible due to the ease of hitting 50% through certain spell combinations. "

For Troubs, don't expect any help or love for sometime way in the future... way way future. They think so much of us now that they are nerfing down one of our three most important abilities which is de-hate. Of course taking it away from us doesn't mean they are taking it out of the game, no, they are planning on giving it away for free on dropped items. See above. Oh well.

For casters, your future ain't looking to bright either unless you are an enchanter. On last nights raid we took four enchanters.... that was it. Seems some think you take too much damage on some of the harder named mobs, especially those that continuously kick out big AoE's that you can't get away from. So between the fact that you are doing less dps then Assassins, Swashys and Brigands, bring no or very little utility, and can't survive, I'm seeing fewer and fewer of you in raids. And with your fate goes mine.

[Illine]

problem of mages, not much more dps, a bit more utility, some buffs and mana feed but a lot less survivability. We are the best when we can't approach the mob and that's all.

like in one of the mobs in casttle mystmoore instance, you need to take the last % real quick. but he chain KB and you always have to move otherwise he drains mana. and scouts can attack while moving or in the air, mages can't, so we loose a lot of dps on fights like that. And I'm a coercer, I cast quick, but here I just couldn't dps as well as I wanted. When I think of sorcerers with long cast time spells, it must be even more annoying.

the tank clearly told me that for this kind of mob, it wasn't good to have a mage only group, they don't have enough burst dps.

mages are good but scouts are better. predators beat sorcerers in dps most of the time. summoners and not well liked as it seems while rogues are needed for a good raid force, just enchanters and bards are well balanced ... except troubas are really usefull if there are mages ... even though I love having a troub in my group (usually I don't :'()

[Huntress Jellica]

Natthan@Venekor wrote:

Noob1974 wrote:

First Troubs now coercer are crying for not getting groups are your server really so s....d ? I play a ranger so theres a difference between a class thats has purely dps and utility classes like troubs/ coercer. In our RF Groups we usually have troubs and i dont mind having them in a group over a dirge. I think its about time to change that not 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanter are wanted in raids. Give some utility to summoner or predator to equal chances.

You can't have it all, They already got a great debuff for raids and have awesome DPS output. I agree Fix summoners, but predators are fine, and assassins are probally a bit on the OP side.

Please enlighten me... What great debuffs do you speak of? Vulnerability? Oo, wow, lowers defense.. like so many other classes do, and not as well as they do it. Vulnerable arrows? Lowers parry and deflection.. ok, that's decent but hardly "great." And Rope.. lowers mitigation vs. heat.

Wow, those sure are "great" debuffs. Not. And I'm no expert on assassin CAs, but I don't think their debuffs are "great" either. They lower defense/poison mitigation I believe. Perhaps you meant rogues, who are known for their great debuffs, and not predators? Not only do rogues lower the target's defense, they also lower mitigation and OFFENSIVE output of the target. That's a lot better than what predators do, debuff wise. All while dishing out DPS almost equal to predators.

Though I will agree with you on one thing. Assassins are definitely a little overpowered as it stands right now. 

I feel for troubadors. There's a few in my guild who are getting a little nervous that they're going to be cut from the raid force. But we always have one, at least, and sometimes two. We usually take the essential classes, and then roll out with whatever we have, and we do well. So I wish you troubs luck. As a ranger I obviously prefer a dirge, but troubadors definitely bring a lot to groups/raids, and I would accept one into a group without hesitating, even if there's no mages.

I wish I had something constructive to bring to the post, but I don't play a troubador, so I don't really have much to offer, other than I like the class. I have my fingers crossed for you!

*edited because I'm a dork and hit submit before I was done..

[Donilla]

Reading thru all of this I have to wonder what happened to the idea of learning to defeat a mob with the group you have. Forgetting raid content, every other mob should be killable by a group with a tank, dps and a healer. It shouldn't matter in what combination those come. Why is the most optimal configuration the only one people are willing to use. I've seem groups fall apart because they were unwilling to take something other the the specific class they are jonzing for, and how is that any fun? The skill comes from adjusting your technique to work with what you have, not from doing nothing until you have the exact same group setup you always have and just running thru the content with no challenge.

I have a troubie, and I see the exact same thing, even at level 20. I actually get tells telling me to betray and then they would have me. BS to that. And try being a Ranger! It's even worse. I can do outstanding dps (yes I know assasins are better atm) but unless I have my mythical and shard armor to the gazoo, I can't even get a group. And how, precisely, am I supposed to get any of that stuff if I can't get a group?

I've had the best times when I found a group of people who got together, worked with what they had and figured out a way to defeat the zone or mob without doing it the same old way each time.

When did the grind for drops and high end gear become more important then gameplay and fun? /removed my last statement cause it was too cynical but I'm sure everyone has a something they can plug in.

[Aule]

Really the best way to obtain desirability for yourself in groups is very simple. Do a [Removed for Content] good job, group often, and group with everybody. It doesn't matter what your class is, bringing competence to the group is vastly superior. Take my brother and I. I group in PUG's all the time, he almost never does. We're both very competent at our classes, but I'm turning down group invites all night whereas you mention his name and the response is "who?". I often have a group invite before I've finished logging on. Does it suck that some classes have more desirability than others? Well, yes, it does. But if you get yourself a reputation for competence then you shouldn't have a problem getting groups.

[Aule]

Oh and start your own groups, that helps a lot.

[Kordran]

Donilla@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I've had the best times when I found a group of people who got together, worked with what they had and figured out a way to defeat the zone or mob without doing it the same old way each time.

On the other hand, you have people who don't want to spend 3 hours in an instance, and paying a plat to a repair bot, to run something that should take 45 minutes. It's been more than two months since TSO was released, the "figuring" out part of the TSO instances is done. People know what to do, and they know what classes they need to do it. While thinking outside the box and running non-standard groups for a challenge/amusement may be fun to some people, it's pretty clear that it's not so for most.

Funny enough, now that they're making void shards shareable amongst your alts, you're going to see even more shard farming going on. More players will want to run those instances with increased speed and efficiency because "they've been there, done that" and the only reason they're still running them is to gear up an alt.

[liveja]

Aule@Guk wrote:

Really the best way to obtain desirability for yourself in groups is very simple. Do a [Removed for Content] good job, group often, and group with everybody.

I'm kinda confused by this advice: the answer to the problem of not getting groups, is to group more thus gaining a reputation as a good group member?

OK. I'll remember that, the next time I spend 4+ hours LFG without a response

O, & yea, I'd be happy to start my own groups ... if anyone actually responded to me ...

[Aule]

Jeepned2 wrote:

For casters, your future ain't looking to bright either unless you are an enchanter. On last nights raid we took four enchanters.... that was it. Seems some think you take too much damage on some of the harder named mobs, especially those that continuously kick out big AoE's that you can't get away from. So between the fact that you are doing less dps then Assassins, Swashys and Brigands, bring no or very little utility, and can't survive, I'm seeing fewer and fewer of you in raids. And with your fate goes mine.

Yeah well, look at the comparison between scout dps and mage dps.

Scouts can:Move while castingTake a hitDeal comparable dpsDon't get gimped by reflect

With the advent of 75m or zonewide aoe's, what happened to the benefit of being able to range the fight?

[Aule]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Aule@Guk wrote:

Really the best way to obtain desirability for yourself in groups is very simple. Do a [Removed for Content] good job, group often, and group with everybody.

I'm kinda confused by this advice: the answer to the problem of not getting groups, is to group more thus gaining a reputation as a good group member?

OK. I'll remember that, the next time I spend 4+ hours LFG without a response

O, & yea, I'd be happy to start my own groups ... if anyone actually responded to me ...

Surely you can come up with 1 or 2 friends you can start a group with and then fill the remaining 3 or 4 spots with people LFG?  Nobody in guild or on your friendslist will start a group with you?

[Dolorian]

To jellica :

Sins have apply poison, a great melee buff but for only one other player,

had great threat transfer. But the real deal is the new skill recieved with TSO,

a very powerfull debuff which reduces the crit bonus of a mob by 10.

If you prefer it's the equivalent of 10 critical mitigation for each person of your group/raid.

I do believe rangers should have extra utility, like group in combat speed,

or some sort of "pinpoint vulnerable spot" attack on a mob making all attacks

on the mob do more damage for a short duration.

If i remember correctly sins have this as a reverse proc debuff.

Back to the topic,

Troubs bring less utility than the other support classes, fact.

Mages gain more dps from a troub, but in all other domains the other support classes bring more.

[liveja]

Aule@Guk wrote:

Nobody in guild or on your friendslist will start a group with you?

Actually, with a grand total of 17 unique accounts, it's very, very often that nobody from my guild is on when I am, & everyone on my friends list is level 80, worrying much more about gearing up their own characters & not about grouping with someone 7 levels below them. FWIW, my Troubie is 73rd level, with 103 AAs, equipped in mostly MC melodic chain, with a few bits of regular crafted jewelry & some drops.

Please note that my responses in this thread should probably go under the Gameplay forum, rather than In Development, because I don't think there's really anything SOE could (or even should) do to change the situation. In particular, the very last thing I want is to see Dirges & Chanters getting nerfed. IMO it's more of a player perception issue than anything else; it's simply a matter of melee DPS being seen as "better" for high level heroic content than caster DPS, & the fact that Dirges are better for melee support than are Troubies.

I think that if SOE were to change anything at all, it would be to fix Mage DPS -- in particular that of Sorcerors & Summoners -- so that melee is not seen as "better", or, alternatively (IMO, less desirable) to change some of the encounters to add more need for spell-casters. IMO, far too much of TSO is simply too easy to burn through with just melee DPS.

Note that I otherwise love TSO ... especially when I'm playing my 80 Swashy. I rarely have trouble finding groups on my Swashy. I also figure that when my Troubie finally DOES get to 80, I'll be seeing plenty of raid slots ... so the issue isn't game-threatening, IMO. But even that might change, if casters continue to get left in the dust.