Swashbuckler GU51 changes

[liveja]

Ahven wrote:

It was changed to trigger a hate reduction. Not sure what it means but I would assume it's something like our current avoid line with a chance to trigger threat reduction on any hit.

If it was changed, it needs to be in the patch notes, so that everyone can see what's going on & we can discuss the changes.

Sadly, as long it's not in the patch notes, my suspicious paranoia is unabated

[Ahven]

Well, since it's an assassin change you can be sure they will get something they all love.

[Raidyen]

Aeralik,

As far as our Mythical temp buff, i find it a bit unfair that we get nothing.  There is no reason why it doesnt give us some enhancment to hurricane, or heck, even a debuff i would be fine with.  Just something.  It doesnt need to be as all powerful as Flurry on the assasin mythical or the Melee crit chance, in fact i would prefer not to have something like that.  I actually want to have to work for my 10k dps parses.  However for us to get nothing, particularly when the old proc was extremely helpful to our hate transfer buff. (one of the swashies defining abilities on a raid, which is now gone)  And please don't compair our mythical to the warlocks, thats like compairing apples and oranges, and you know it.

Other then that, after testing the changes for a couple hours last night in my guild group, I am fairly comfortable and pleased.  I still hate this single/multi target tank concept, but in our guild group with a pally, swash and warlock, the pally did just fine holding mobs.  Nothing worse anyway then what we are dealing with now on live.  A few adjustments i think need made to the pally amends, and swashy distrcation, but ill put those up on a feedback.

[Andric_D]

Aeralik wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

Well, an update on our Mythical .. Looks like we are the ONLY class not getting a temp buff on our Mythical. They removed the duration from the proc. Since we get a NON-Toggable Blue AOE, we don't get a temp buff, grats SOE. Looks like were the only f***cking class that does not get one. I hope to god this does not go to LIVE like this. As it sits, here is a list of what all other scouts got.

Ranger (2): Adds normalized combat art damage based on 20% of current strength, and 60% Chance not to use Ammo.

Assasin: 15% Flurry Chance

Brigand: 15% Double Attack Chance

Troubador: 15% Damage Spell Crit

Dirge: Allows caster to hit all Melee Based attacks for Maximum damage

You are not the only class to not get a temp buff on the epic procs.  Warlock for example has similar attributes to yours with a dehate.  Yours is pretty cut and dry as pure damage and multiple targets which in theory is really your temp buff.  Also, the assassin proc is melee crit not flurry

 This really reads like you are takign the micky - not just uncaring but enjoying our discomfort.

very poor reply.

[Boldac]

So....why is it that assassins seem to get the stuff the other classes come up with or ask for?

The "Assassin's Flurry" buff on the mythical was originally suggested by the brigands.

Assassins are NOT utility.  Even your wonderful class descriptions tell you that the assassin is T1 melee dps.  SWASHBUCKLERS are listed as utility.  Yet, for some reason, and even though swashies had offensive debuffs, assassins got the crit debuff?  Where's the logic in that?

And now, because of the changes in aggro and hate, hate transfers are going away (which I think is a good thing), we are getting BOHICA'd because an assassin playing/catering designer thinks it's better that way?

Wake up and smell what you are shoveling.  Before you turn assassins in the pre-nge jedi of eq2.

[Trojenn]

Well, I just have one question I would like an answer to. Since our Hate transfer is no longer and offensive debuffs that we supply are pretty much nothing, what exactly makes us Utility. The reply is probably still going to be something along the lines of Hate Management. Well, SoH is complete and utter trash wich has been stated by nearly EVERY SWASHBUCKLER posting in any of the forums, and our new Swarthy Deceit is just about as worthless. So aside from those 2 spells, what do we have to offer as utility. ??

[OutcastBlade]

Aeralik,

I can appreciate your motive in not giving us a temp buff because of the fact that you consider our AE as a temp buff all on its own. I can tell you, it doesn't compare at all to what other classes get.

Lets talk about raiding...What do we have now? A crap mythical yes, but only when it comes to dps. It has one of the most important utilities that a raid can use and that is HIGH hate transfer that is almost always up. This made us MT group material since we are also decent dps. Single encounter or multiple encounter, it didn't really matter...

Was it Ezmode? Yes. Did it need to be replaced? Yes.

How does that compare to what you are giving us now? It doesn't. Not even close. You are turning us into a pure dps class and that is fine, but you seem to be in a very bad habit of giving swashbucklers purely situational abilities. Slieght of Hand, our new Swarthy Disorder(which I like regardless), and now the new epic proc. What makes you think in your right mind, that my paladin MT is going to be pulling groups with his comparitively poor AE hate management skills? No, he's going to pulling singles when and where he can, nullifying the proc on my mythical. It is a very poor replacement for an otherwise unique and highly coveted proc.

Let's talk about grouping.... Same deal, half of the fighter classes are going to be having some serious issues keeping mobs off of us, when our mythical accidentally procs and hits an add before the tank can do anything to establish hate. When adds come in I turn off hurricane, both in groups and in raids, when the tank says he has it under control I turn hurricane back on. I am in control of my AEs, with our new mythical I won't be.

Kanolth's ingenius idea.

Here.... let me point you in the right direction for this poor attempt at replacing our mythical's hate xfer proc. Both AE functions below will have the base melee buff that you have cheated us out of. You could make it such that the melee buff/proc would only trigger if and only if hurricane is not active, otherwise it acts as a blue AE for up to six targets.

The melee buff/proc could be a bonus to one of our single encounter abilities... or it could provide a small chance of double or triple proccing the proc damage/or autoattack on a single target if hurricane is not active.

Granted I am biased, but there is so much you can do with the spirit of the idea.

if(user->hurricane_active)       proc_mythical_AE();else       proc_mythical_noAE();

[Delow]

Aeralik wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

Well, an update on our Mythical .. Looks like we are the ONLY class not getting a temp buff on our Mythical. They removed the duration from the proc. Since we get a NON-Toggable Blue AOE, we don't get a temp buff, grats SOE. Looks like were the only f***cking class that does not get one. I hope to god this does not go to LIVE like this. As it sits, here is a list of what all other scouts got.

Ranger (2): Adds normalized combat art damage based on 20% of current strength, and 60% Chance not to use Ammo.

Assasin: 15% Flurry Chance

Brigand: 15% Double Attack Chance

Troubador: 15% Damage Spell Crit

Dirge: Allows caster to hit all Melee Based attacks for Maximum damage

You are not the only class to not get a temp buff on the epic procs. Warlock for example has similar attributes to yours with a dehate. Yours is pretty cut and dry as pure damage and multiple targets which in theory is really your temp buff. Also, the assassin proc is melee crit not flurry

What is it you have against swashbucklers anyway? 

You are justifying not actually putting thought into our epic by saying its like a casters epic in many ways? What kind of logic is that? We are a melee scout class, we compare to other melee scout classes, as in assassins and brigands (you know....rogues....). Oh, and btw, the warlock epic has at least another effect on its proc, you know, that deagro you mentioned..

We arent asking a lot, just that you listen and put some effort into balancing our class. Hell, put an AE Deagro proc on the [Removed for Content] thing and I'll be happy.

We are a medium DPS class now with NO ability to manage our AE agro yet we have a lot of AE abilities. We have nothing but 2 single target hate "manipulation" spells and our single target deagros. There is no strong reason for us to be on raids now.

[Trojenn]

I am still curiously awaiting an answer to what exactly were supposed to be in raid now. I am utterly dissapointed with how we are being treated and Its absolute biased BS reasoning given to use from the Development team. You cannot compare Casters to Melee just as you cannot compare a Healer to a Tank. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT classes. I am begining to think that SoE is trying to narrow the field on what is wanted in raid. It is coming down to only a few select classes that are high asset in raid.

But in the end, we all know that we will still suck it up, continue to B**ch about our class on the forums and still shine above every other class and give the much FAVORED assasin a run for his money on parse.

[CenturaEQ]

Aeralik, he was comparing us to other Scouts. He didn't compare us to all classes.

Seriously, Aeralik, we're not asking for a lot. It's not like we are asking for Flurry to be added to Swarthy Chaos as a buff. Leaving it just as a damage proc is not fair, it needs to have a buff added to it. And no, it doesn't have to be a buff that increases our DPS in some kind of way. Add some kind of Offensive Debuff to it, or maybe AOE Deaggro (I would prefer lower position).

We also need to be able to turn it off:Hurricane active -> Swarthy Chaos = AOEHurricane not active -> Swarthy Chaos = Single Target

You need to remove +5% Hate Gain on Spurious Bravado, too.And while you're at it, make it not dispel when we get hit. Assassin/Ranger doesn't have to deal with that crap.

And about Swarthy Line, I'll come back to that after Saturday. Hopefully going to try raid a bit on Test.

There is one thing I can say about it, though. The Decrease Threat (If not Fighter) needs to be > Increase Threat (If Fighter).Why? Because if you put it on a non-Fighter, only that person will benefit from it. If you put it on a Fighter (that's tanking), whole raid will benefit from it. So the Decrease Threat part (If not fighter), needs to be a lot higher than Increase Threat (If Fighter), to even consider putting it on someone that's not tanking.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, last time I was on Test, Blame Blade was still +30% Hate Gain on target. Should probably not be that much...

[Norrsken]

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

I am still curiously awaiting an answer to what exactly were supposed to be in raid now. I am utterly dissapointed with how we are being treated and Its absolute biased BS reasoning given to use from the Development team. You cannot compare Casters to Melee just as you cannot compare a Healer to a Tank. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT classes. I am begining to think that SoE is trying to narrow the field on what is wanted in raid. It is coming down to only a few select classes that are high asset in raid.

But in the end, we all know that we will still suck it up, continue to B**ch about our class on the forums and still shine above every other class and give the much FAVORED assasin a run for his money on parse.

Imho, there is a hugeass difference between a healer and a tank.

The difference between melee and caster dps isnt that big. they should be pushing the same dps for the same amount of utility. Assassins will still be wanted for their dps. they might not sit in the MT group anymore though.

[Trojenn]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

I am still curiously awaiting an answer to what exactly were supposed to be in raid now. I am utterly dissapointed with how we are being treated and Its absolute biased BS reasoning given to use from the Development team. You cannot compare Casters to Melee just as you cannot compare a Healer to a Tank. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT classes. I am begining to think that SoE is trying to narrow the field on what is wanted in raid. It is coming down to only a few select classes that are high asset in raid.

But in the end, we all know that we will still suck it up, continue to B**ch about our class on the forums and still shine above every other class and give the much FAVORED assasin a run for his money on parse.

Imho, there is a hugeass difference between a healer and a tank.

The difference between melee and caster dps isnt that big. they should be pushing the same dps for the same amount of utility. Assassins will still be wanted for their dps. they might not sit in the MT group anymore though.

Is not the amount of difference, its the fact of comparison. The aspects and mechanics of Melee vs Caster is completely different as is Healers and tanks, thats what I was pointing out. and yes you are correct on assasins, they will still be wanted for there DPS and probably won't hold an MT group position anymore but were does that leave us. Were not the DPS that an Assasin is, and we don't have the MT group apeal anymore either so again where does that leave us.

[Katanalla]

I vote swarthy chaos should proc off any sucessful attack!

[Allie]

Welcome to the bench cexi, I am getting bored there anyways

jeez how many classes will they nerf in order to make others so much better? The balance in this game is totally out of order and it is not getting better :/

[Katanalla]

Class balancing....

its like slide weighing scales, only its a mystery weight and you can't remove the objects to properly calibrate the scale and theres a hurricane going on and you're outside without any jacket on and you got denied a loan the day before, oh and your wife left you for a Norwegian farmer.

[Norrsken]

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

I am still curiously awaiting an answer to what exactly were supposed to be in raid now. I am utterly dissapointed with how we are being treated and Its absolute biased BS reasoning given to use from the Development team. You cannot compare Casters to Melee just as you cannot compare a Healer to a Tank. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT classes. I am begining to think that SoE is trying to narrow the field on what is wanted in raid. It is coming down to only a few select classes that are high asset in raid.

But in the end, we all know that we will still suck it up, continue to B**ch about our class on the forums and still shine above every other class and give the much FAVORED assasin a run for his money on parse.

Imho, there is a hugeass difference between a healer and a tank.

The difference between melee and caster dps isnt that big. they should be pushing the same dps for the same amount of utility. Assassins will still be wanted for their dps. they might not sit in the MT group anymore though.

Is not the amount of difference, its the fact of comparison. The aspects and mechanics of Melee vs Caster is completely different as is Healers and tanks, thats what I was pointing out. and yes you are correct on assasins, they will still be wanted for there DPS and probably won't hold an MT group position anymore but were does that leave us. Were not the DPS that an Assasin is, and we don't have the MT group apeal anymore either so again where does that leave us.

An ae focused melee dps class that pretty much can pull the numbers of an assassin/ranger yet still debuffs more?

[ke'la]

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

I am still curiously awaiting an answer to what exactly were supposed to be in raid now. I am utterly dissapointed with how we are being treated and Its absolute biased BS reasoning given to use from the Development team. You cannot compare Casters to Melee just as you cannot compare a Healer to a Tank. They are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT classes. I am begining to think that SoE is trying to narrow the field on what is wanted in raid. It is coming down to only a few select classes that are high asset in raid.

But in the end, we all know that we will still suck it up, continue to B**ch about our class on the forums and still shine above every other class and give the much FAVORED assasin a run for his money on parse.

Imho, there is a hugeass difference between a healer and a tank.

The difference between melee and caster dps isnt that big. they should be pushing the same dps for the same amount of utility. Assassins will still be wanted for their dps. they might not sit in the MT group anymore though.

Is not the amount of difference, its the fact of comparison. The aspects and mechanics of Melee vs Caster is completely different as is Healers and tanks, thats what I was pointing out. and yes you are correct on assasins, they will still be wanted for there DPS and probably won't hold an MT group position anymore but were does that leave us. Were not the DPS that an Assasin is, and we don't have the MT group apeal anymore either so again where does that leave us.

An ae focused melee dps class that pretty much can pull the numbers of an assassin/ranger yet still debuffs more?

Last I checked 3 AE CAs(all Blue) and NO AE debuffs, does not make for an AE focused class. As for DPS, how are we supposed to do Assassin/Ranger Type AE damage without accually being able to shed AE agro? And I am sorry the Epic proc is a Joke no if, and, or buts about it. A BLUE 360 AoE that can not be turned off is just about the dumbest idea I ever heard of... infact it is a bad enough proc that you will see Swashbucklers UNEQUIPING thier EPIC(supposedly the end all be all...save avatar) in many siduations as it is too dangerous to use.

All we are asking for is the ablity to toggle it between single target(for more damage) and AoE... and to add some form of buff to it... like all other Scout classes get.

[Eighty]

Aeralik wrote:

Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:

Well, an update on our Mythical .. Looks like we are the ONLY class not getting a temp buff on our Mythical. They removed the duration from the proc. Since we get a NON-Toggable Blue AOE, we don't get a temp buff, grats SOE. Looks like were the only f***cking class that does not get one. I hope to god this does not go to LIVE like this. As it sits, here is a list of what all other scouts got.

Ranger (2): Adds normalized combat art damage based on 20% of current strength, and 60% Chance not to use Ammo.

Assasin: 15% Flurry Chance

Brigand: 15% Double Attack Chance

Troubador: 15% Damage Spell Crit

Dirge: Allows caster to hit all Melee Based attacks for Maximum damage

You are not the only class to not get a temp buff on the epic procs.  Warlock for example has similar attributes to yours with a dehate.  Yours is pretty cut and dry as pure damage and multiple targets which in theory is really your temp buff.  Also, the assassin proc is melee crit not flurry

Are you joking? Every class at least gets something with their proc. Thats what we're saying. Yeah, the warlocks don't get a temp buff but they get an AoE dehate, which would be pretty nice for swashies too now, seeing as we no longer have a way to control our AoE aggro. Thre is absolutely no reason why swashbucklers should just get nothing.

We also need the ability to turn off the AoE on our epic's proc. Either tie it to Hurricane or just let us right click it off and on. No way should we be the only class forced to unequip our epic just because there are adds nearby.

Swashbucklers were the best hate transfer in the game. Hate transfers are removed and we get nothing in return to fill the hole in our utility. All we are now is 2nd tier dps with mediocre debuffs. Swarthy disorder can give the tank a nice boost in hate, but in no way will it make or break a raid. Also it does nothing for the tank's AoE hate gain, and at a 1 minute recast can't even be used every fight in instances.

[Ethi]

I'm fairly new to lvl 80 and I'd started working on my epic.  However with the changes I'm kinda wondering if it is going to be worthwhile?  I mean unless I'm soloing most of the time groups and raids don't want people using AEs and if my weapon is procing AE I'm gonna most likely be asked to not use it.

Is there any way it could be a green ae instead of blue?  That might make it more acceptable?

[CenturaEQ]

No, it should stay as AOE, imo.

But, it need to be made a clicky, so you can switch between Single Target and AOE. Or it can be attached to Hurricane. If Hurricane is up: AOE, if not up: Single Target.

[Ujina]

Why not make the temp buff a hurricane buff ? like +8/15% chance of hurricane to proc ? So if hurricane isn't up no problem.

[Delow]

Aeralik

As I and most everyone here have been saying.

Tie the [Removed for Content] mythical proc to Hurricane to control whether its an AE proc or a single target proc or make it its own toggleable effect. Also, give us another effect on our mythical's proc and stop give cop out answers to us.

We want CONTROL over if we are AEing or not and we dont want to have to unequip our mythical to accomplish this.

[liveja]

Cexi@Everfrost wrote:

No, it should stay as AOE, imo..

Make it a GREEN AOE, or make it TOGGLEABLE. But either way, an uncontrollable BLUE AOE proc is the result of someone not paying attention & not thinking  & that's absolutely the nicest, most polite thing I can say.

[Katanalla]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Cexi@Everfrost wrote:

No, it should stay as AOE, imo..

Make it a GREEN AOE, or make it TOGGLEABLE. But either way, an uncontrollable BLUE AOE proc is the result of someone not paying attention & not thinking  & that's absolutely the nicest, most polite thing I can say.

Green aoes suck as if you have multiple encounters its only proccing on that 1 mob, I.E. trash mobs in palace, tombs, ykesha, and a lot of group zones. In reality it'll only be a problem in like 1-2 zones, cause if that aoes and hits a roamer, that roamer would already be just about on the raid anyways to begin with if they're that close. Would have been nice for the proc to give like a 33% chance to AoE 8 up to 8 targets, get debuffs on most of mobs in encounter, kinda stinks when some mobs you have to tab around to debuff them all and hurts your dps.

----

ALSO, I never noticed this but can we get Advanced Warning to show up on our Maintained Effects window, its only on the Effects Window, so if you need to cancel for whole group you can't

[OutcastBlade]

This brings back memories of when the mythicals were upgraded and we were all complaining about being left out, and... nothing happened. Despite the unanimous ideas, nothing happened.

He has made up his mind, and he and his team have screwed us over yet again. That's alright, we should be use to it by now.

PS.) Will the swashbuckler in Aeralik's guild stop outparsing him please? We're becoming victims of hate against you.

[DngrMou]

Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:

This brings back memories of when the mythicals were upgraded and we were all complaining about being left out, and... nothing happened. Despite the unanimous ideas, nothing happened.

He has made up his mind, and he and his team have screwed us over yet again. That's alright, we should be use to it by now.

PS.) Will the swashbuckler in Aeralik's guild stop outparsing him please? We're becoming victims of hate against you.

Well....I don't think anyone should get their hopes up that anything will be changed.  Look at what happened in DoF.  Swashy ranged abilities were all but destroyed, our new ranged CA's, (all both of them), then required thrown weapons, and after two years, (about?), how many legendary or fabled bandoliers/ammo pouches are dropping that we can use with thrown weapons?  I've yet to see anything in TSO at all, (shard merchants sell nothing like that). Do a search for level 71-80 ranged weapons on the broker.  Fabled?  Zero.  Legendary?  Zero.  The BEST is treasured...and from RoK.

SOE has a history of neglecting this class, imposing ill conceived, and poorly implemented changes on this class, and then never fixing the resulting problems that they create.

[Katanalla]

Maybe.... If we put a sign over our class that said assassin.... then  complained!.... then don't tell anyone we were actually swashbucklers the whole time... just maybe.... in theory..... something would happen.

[liveja]

Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:

In reality it'll only be a problem in like 1-2 zones

In reality -- as I've said more than once -- the uncontrollable BLUE AOE proc will not be much of a problem for raiding, & in fact may well be excellent for that purpose.

However, when I'm soloing, I'm not interested in pulling unwanted adds, & since I do mostly solo, I'd prefer to be able to use the epic I worked for.

Connecting it to Hurricane, as many have suggested, is probably the best overall compromise. Leaving it as is, however, is simply wrong.

[Noaani]

Making it only proc on mobs that have you on their hate list would be an ideal solution.

[liveja]

DngrMouse wrote:

Do a search for level 71-80 ranged weapons on the broker. Fabled? Zero. Legendary? Zero. The BEST is treasured...and from RoK.

There's a relatively decent legendary thrown weapons pouch out of RE2. I'm pretty sure it's not even No Trade. If nothing else, it's got acceptable stats & a +meleecrit bonus.

OTOH, I've seen very few Swashy friendly drops in TSO instances so far. Most of what I've seen has been for tanks & healers; a few pieces of jewelry here & there, but nothing more.