An old complaint

[Mörk]

Okay, I admit... some of the new mystic abilities from TSO have lured me back to my Chesty La Rue. Yes, i'm happy I can buff over 100% double attack and crit now, and that the soul lancer gear seems ideally suited to the soloing mystic.

However, despite a few obvious nods in our direction from the devs, it seems ridiculous that there are still several glaringly obvious flaws in our class (scratch that, our archetype) that are ignored.

Group wards are broken. No two ways about it.

Swisha put numbers up last year sometime and i've not been able to find the post, but it's simple- every healer class has group heals which can heal EACH PERSON in their group for an even amount of damage. Shamen AE wards protect the group as a whole for 3-4000 damage TOTAL. That is, one 5 second cast AE ward protects each member of a 6-strong group for ~600 points of damage each.

This is at level 80. Tier 9.

With raid gear you might get this up to about 1k per person. I think a warlock can nuke for that much in pvp at lvl 50.

Please fix it.

[Zaciownsyou]

Very good point, also, a lesser problem that also effects clerics is the less than 10 second dispell reactives and wards brigands get. Even though brigand is my favorite class, Im a swash atm so I can say fix it so it dispells less, or makes them half efficiency. It is possible to win without the taunt, but with it they stand almost zero chance.

[Natthan]

This was a kind of recent post by me saying the same old thing again too:

The OP was saying the complete lack of ability to heal on a PvP Shaman, Not on a PvE aspect. PvE Shamans are pretty fine where they are, PvP they are the bottom of the barrel for PvP healers in group PvP. Reasons why:

1. Extremely long cast time. 5 seconds for a group ward base for ~3.4k in PvP. Which is less than 1 Guardian(Used for a low dps class) AE if the AE hits 4 of the 6 people in your group. Long cast times also = Very Interuptable which with a rouge O-Stance is about every other hit will interupt.

2. Ease of removing. Between PvP items like "The Purifier", Brigand taunt every 7.5 sec w/ AA, Pumice, Scerene symbol, and many other things, Its very easy to not even have to remove a full ward by using the full damage absorbsion amount.

3. Complete lack luster direct heals. If both wards are eatten up or removed you really have nothing to fall back on because of the extremely low amount of heals done by directs.

Average PvP auto attack is also around 1k so wards don't last very long at all

The Fear Item also is completely OP and everyone knows it, and exiles can't even use the item either so any exiled shamans are SoL for healing in PvP really.

The simple fact of the matter is that last expansion auto attacks and all damage went up by at least 300 damage and wards went up ~40 which is kind of sad, I used to be able to solo heal PvP groups, it was challenging but doable, its not impossible to do against anyone w/ a clue.

Shamans are Ok alone but in a group because of the wording on the group ward its really restricting in PvP the "Collective" amount. Just my opinion.

[Wed]

It'll get better for defilers once they fix OLH stuff I think.

But, I don't even have a defiler, and everyone knows their borked for group healing in T8. Something should be done, be it just increasing the number overall, or making it apply to each group member.

[Sprin]

Yup, the reasons i stopped playing my mystic (first of my 4 toons to 80)... PVP on mystic is painfull at best... you go without a tank to get peeps off you = near impossible... long cast times and lousy group heals / wards make them terrible with no tank...

You get a small group vs small group and a good tank in there with the mystic though and amazing things can happen... but its still hard sometimes to get wards off...  group ward in PVP = /fail.... if you have it on at the beginning of the fight, great, but thts usually the time when all the group members are taking hits, which means thats getting chewed up pretty much instantly, and to get that thing off in the middle of a fight, 5 seconds in a group on group battle = lots of damage being done, and your spending 5 seconds trying to put up a ward thats mediocre for teh group unless ALL aggro is on the tank only, and that rarely happens with PVP... forced target to tank only lasts so long, and all it takes is an AOE and that ward is gone...

[Paikis]

Get some gear with Benevolent Alacrity and then get the robe with panic'd sorcery on it as well. You should be able to get your group ward down to a 3 second cast fairly easily. I know my group reactive on my templar is down to 3.2 second cast time, and I can get it lower by swapping some gear out.

I realise this isnt a good enough fix, but it will help. Personally I think they need to change both group reactives and wards. Look at how much the druid's group regens heal for and then apply seperate wards for the amount (or reactive triggers) on each individual player in the group.

e.g Druid group regen heals for 200-250 per person every 2 seconds for 10 seconds total (made up numbers cos im lazy). So that means that every person in the group is getting healed for 1000-1500. So we change the Shaman group wards to apply 6 individual wards (one to each member of the group) to the group for 1250.

[KannaWhoopass]

I group with people in t8 all the time who say ...

"Oh cool ive never grouped with a mystic before"

It's my opinion that it should be almost impossible to interrupt a shamen.

One one thousand , two one thousand , three one thousand , interrupt.

One one thousand , two one thousand , three one thuosand , interrupt

One one thousand , thow one thousand , three one thousand, four one thousand.

GRP HEAL....

i think that would be the reality of PvP ... 

That and the neon white dog ..telling every class within a mile ..hey look a mystic went that way 

follow the glowing beacon to the kill. 

I have been in encounters where i have been killed before my dog caught up to me

[zorros]

Chesty@Nagafen wrote:

Okay, I admit... some of the new mystic abilities from TSO have lured me back to my Chesty La Rue. Yes, i'm happy I can buff over 100% double attack and crit now, and that the soul lancer gear seems ideally suited to the soloing mystic.

However, despite a few obvious nods in our direction from the devs, it seems ridiculous that there are still several glaringly obvious flaws in our class (scratch that, our archetype) that are ignored.

Group wards are broken. No two ways about it.

Swisha put numbers up last year sometime and i've not been able to find the post, but it's simple- every healer class has group heals which can heal EACH PERSON in their group for an even amount of damage. Shamen AE wards protect the group as a whole for 3-4000 damage TOTAL. That is, one 5 second cast AE ward protects each member of a 6-strong group for ~600 points of damage each.

This is at level 80. Tier 9.

With raid gear you might get this up to about 1k per person. I think a warlock can nuke for that much in pvp at lvl 50.

Please fix it.

Im just got my mystic to t8 and ive been wondering about the same thing. I hope they do something about it soon. I guess the best we can do is /feedback ingame and hope

[Guld_Ulrish]

Mystics does atleast get dps Defilers has nothing.

[Muraazi]

I understand where you are coming from. It's not really just shaman tho, cleric reactives are in the almost same boat.

They have one group reactive which is like 550 or 650 at lvl 80 per hit for 9 hits. Alittle more than a 4k group ward. Imo, the problem comes in when you compare the two to druid group heals. Druid group heals are far superior at healing the group. However, as some druid said long ago, clerics/shamans are better at keeping a single target up. That is a biased opinion, and fairly subjective to what you are fighting however. Imo, nothing trumps a warden in any situation heh. It's pretty sad really considering the extra utility they get.

[Buttcliffe]

Muraazi wrote:

I understand where you are coming from. It's not really just shaman tho, cleric reactives are in the almost same boat.

They have one group reactive which is like 550 or 650 at lvl 80 per hit for 9 hits. Alittle more than a 4k group ward. Imo, the problem comes in when you compare the two to druid group heals. Druid group heals are far superior at healing the group. However, as some druid said long ago, clerics/shamans are better at keeping a single target up. That is a biased opinion, and fairly subjective to what you are fighting however. Imo, nothing trumps a warden in any situation heh. It's pretty sad really considering the extra utility they get.

?!  extra utility....  all wardens are are healbots.  their dps blows, they get some roots.  Definitely not utility.  They have the worst group buffs of any class.

[Faenril]

Buttcliffe wrote:

Muraazi wrote:

I understand where you are coming from. It's not really just shaman tho, cleric reactives are in the almost same boat.

They have one group reactive which is like 550 or 650 at lvl 80 per hit for 9 hits. Alittle more than a 4k group ward. Imo, the problem comes in when you compare the two to druid group heals. Druid group heals are far superior at healing the group. However, as some druid said long ago, clerics/shamans are better at keeping a single target up. That is a biased opinion, and fairly subjective to what you are fighting however. Imo, nothing trumps a warden in any situation heh. It's pretty sad really considering the extra utility they get.

?!  extra utility....  all wardens are are healbots.  their dps blows, they get some roots.  Definitely not utility.  They have the worst group buffs of any class.

I guess he meant SoW and evac.

[Natthan]

Don't bring up clerics compared to Shamans in PvP here is why:

Steadfast

Int Line(Including Divine Recovery)

Sanc for Templars

Quick Recast Self Cure through status for Inq (Yes Defilers get a group one w/ Pathetic range and longer recast)

All these things alone especially Steadfast make Clerics far superior in PvP

[Sprin]

The thing about Mystics is this.... in a PVE situation, where one person had aggro all the time mystics make one of the best healers bar none... their entire group ward goes on that person and you dont get inturrupted and you can spam wards on that person all day long...

In PVP situation, 6 vs 6 and your going to have everyone taking damage at T8, your group ward, which you pretty much only have time to cast before the fight, is going to be chewed up instnatly and in PVP its so dynamic that you usually dont have enough time to cast that again...  

Group heal wise, mystics blow compared to all other classes... single target heal, they are near the best

Best PVP group for a mystic = Guardian, Zerker, SK, Pally, Bruiser Mystic   so nobody ever touches the mystic and they can actually get a few wards off to protect peeps

[Muraazi]

Natthan@Venekor wrote:

Don't bring up clerics compared to Shamans in PvP here is why:

Steadfast

Int Line(Including Divine Recovery)

Sanc for Templars

Quick Recast Self Cure through status for Inq (Yes Defilers get a group one w/ Pathetic range and longer recast)

All these things alone especially Steadfast make Clerics far superior in PvP

FFS did you even read what I posted. I was in no way comparing shaman to clerics. I was saying they both share some of the problem when it comes to their group healing spells............................................

Kinda like what the OP was talking about.

[Wed]

Muraazi wrote:

I was saying they both share some of the problem when it comes to their group healing spells.............

No, they don't. Clerics have it a lot easier.

[Sorffats]

Personally, it seems to me that shaman group wards are working just fine.  I do understand that they are long casting spells (so is the inq group reactive), but I recall hitting anyone in a group with a shaman FOREVER getting the message, "you hit Soandso, but fail to inflict any damage".   I've burned through all my CA's getting that message.   You say 600 to 1000 ward heal per person in group?  If that were the case, then the ward would be gone in one to two CA's.

I'm not trying to flame you or discredit you, simply saying what my experiences are when fighting a group with a shaman.  I will also say that if you can get in on the shaman, before the tank in that group taunts, burst out the dps on them before they can cast their ward, and kill them; then you'll have a good chance against the group.   But, there's the free, no cast time, heal abilities too that most healing classes save for cases just like that.  I know I do on my inq.

[Muraazi]

Wedge wrote:

Muraazi wrote:

I was saying they both share some of the problem when it comes to their group healing spells.............

No, they don't. Clerics have it a lot easier.

Easier because they have steadfast etc yes. But the mechanic BS is pretty [Removed for Content] close. The fact is the group heal spell is not enough, the group ward or reactive is not enough when comparing it to druid group hots. That is my point, not trying to rain on anyones parade, christ. I'm with you guys comprehension ftw.

[Natthan]

Muraazi wrote:

Wedge wrote:

Muraazi wrote:

I was saying they both share some of the problem when it comes to their group healing spells.............

No, they don't. Clerics have it a lot easier.

Easier because they have steadfast etc yes. But the mechanic BS is pretty [Removed for Content] close. The fact is the group heal spell is not enough, the group ward or reactive is not enough when comparing it to druid group hots. That is my point, not trying to rain on anyones parade, christ. I'm with you guys comprehension ftw.

Your inability to word your opinion/point FTL!

[Efrath]

Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:

Personally, it seems to me that shaman group wards are working just fine.  I do understand that they are long casting spells (so is the inq group reactive), but I recall hitting anyone in a group with a shaman FOREVER getting the message, "you hit Soandso, but fail to inflict any damage".   I've burned through all my CA's getting that message.   You say 600 to 1000 ward heal per person in group?  If that were the case, then the ward would be gone in one to two CA's.

I'm not trying to flame you or discredit you, simply saying what my experiences are when fighting a group with a shaman.  I will also say that if you can get in on the shaman, before the tank in that group taunts, burst out the dps on them before they can cast their ward, and kill them; then you'll have a good chance against the group.   But, there's the free, no cast time, heal abilities too that most healing classes save for cases just like that.  I know I do on my inq.

I don't think you understand how wards work. the WHOLE group ward amount isn't divided or anything but rather a collective ward. If you have a group ward of 4000 and only one person gets hit for 700, the ward amount left for the whole group is 3300. If then someone hits the whole group for 300, it means that 1800 damage is absorbed and that the group ward has 1400 ward left.

Since you're a class that hits only one target at a time most of the time, the ward doesn't go away as quickly. The groupward is screwed as soon as a class that can do decent target encounter damage comes by.

[Muraazi]

Natthan@Venekor wrote:

Muraazi wrote:

Wedge wrote:

Muraazi wrote:

I was saying they both share some of the problem when it comes to their group healing spells.............

No, they don't. Clerics have it a lot easier.

Easier because they have steadfast etc yes. But the mechanic BS is pretty [Removed for Content] close. The fact is the group heal spell is not enough, the group ward or reactive is not enough when comparing it to druid group hots. That is my point, not trying to rain on anyones parade, christ. I'm with you guys comprehension ftw.

Your inability to word your opinion/point FTL!

Whatever, The OP was talking about the group ward for shamans, I was talking about the group reactive for clerics. Very comparable considering both the total ward value and 9 hits for reactives are shared amongst the group. You went off on a tangent saying I was comparing the cleric AT and the shaman AT completely.

[Sprin]

Eragahn@Nagafen wrote:

Personally, it seems to me that shaman group wards are working just fine.  I do understand that they are long casting spells (so is the inq group reactive), but I recall hitting anyone in a group with a shaman FOREVER getting the message, "you hit Soandso, but fail to inflict any damage".   I've burned through all my CA's getting that message.   You say 600 to 1000 ward heal per person in group?  If that were the case, then the ward would be gone in one to two CA's.

I'm not trying to flame you or discredit you, simply saying what my experiences are when fighting a group with a shaman.  I will also say that if you can get in on the shaman, before the tank in that group taunts, burst out the dps on them before they can cast their ward, and kill them; then you'll have a good chance against the group.   But, there's the free, no cast time, heal abilities too that most healing classes save for cases just like that.  I know I do on my inq.

Its not that they dont "work fine" its that they are vastly underpowered compared to other healers group heals...

Group Ward: Umbral Wardign, AD3.... wards 3372 points Collectively between 6 people..... 5 second cast time.... 15 second reuse time...

Warden Group Heal: Healstorm, Ad3.... Heals instantly for 550 and every 2 seconds for 10 seconds total (6 x 6 group members x 550 = 19,800 collective heals for group)...  3 second cast, 12 second recast

You tell me whats wrong with that picture, Mystic gets 3400 ward for 6 people that takes 5 seconds to cast and 15 second recast.... Warden gets nearly 20,000 worth of heals that takes 2 seconds less time to cast and can be recast in 3 seconds sooner....

So if a warlock comes up to the group and hits an AOE... that AOE lets say hits for 1500 per person in the group... 6 people in the group share 3400 wards... Group member 1. Fully protected (-1500).... Group member 2. Fully protected  (-1500) ... Group member 3. Protected for 400 (all done with ward)... Group members 4, 5, 6 take the full 1500 hit... and now the mystic needs to come up with another 5 second group ward to be chewed up instantly again for half the group and the other half is near dead... considering it takes 5 seconds to do so = not gonna happen in time... and thats counting on the Mystic being able to get 5 second cast group ward up 5 seconds before the Warlock comes into the fight and does the AOE...

Now you look at the Same situation with Warden... for those of you who say "well yes but its warded from damage by the mystic and the Warden has to react to the damage"  Hogwash for that too... If im a warden and i see a warlock coming... 3 seconds later i've casted my 10 second group heal over time... warlock does his 1500 per member AOE , lets say even after the inital instant heal, plus half of the Heals over time... so i only have 3 ticks left for the each group member... so over half of the heal lets say is wasted.... 3 x 550 x 6 = 9900 collective damage healed stilll in a 6 second period, having wasted 5 ticks of the heal.... and of course 6 seconds later i can cast it again with a 3 second cast time and it starts all over again..

Mystic group heals / wards are garbage compared to any other class... even if you have time to prepare for the fight, if the group as a whole is taking a lot of damage, they are worthless compared to other class group heals...