Why all Bard songs and Chanter buffs should be raidwide.

[Wrapye]

Aeralik wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

The net result of making buffs raidwide would be a set of 4 classes that alone bring massive power to a raid force. This might be imbalanced, but I'd rather 2 bards and 2 chanters could bring that massive power than needing to kick 4 other less desirable classes (e.g brawlers and summoners) to shoehorn in 4 more buffbots. This unfortunate mechanic as it is at the moment is a massive barrier to non-hardcore raiding, and even in hardcore guilds how many people can say they're playing a bard/chanter because they really want to, and how many have to admit they're playing one because it was the only class the guild were recruiting?

But would you really bring those supposed less desirable classes?  Bards and enchanters are brought along to maximize the dps of the raid.  If you make it so you need a token dirge, troub, coercer and illy then you just shift to bringing along those known for super high dps like the preds and sorcerors. It's just shifting the problem from one set of classes to another. 

Something we are working on is to make every class desirable.  It's something that takes time though.  I don't see bards or enchanters really getting raid wide buffs though.  Even if they were made raidwide you still would need to bring them along for the other stuff like tandem, IA, TC, epic procs, etc which means they are still highly desired for these buffs.

Given the changes to the enchanter memwipe abilities (i.e. all epic mobs, named or otherwise, in TSO are 100% immune) and there is a Shadows AA line for enchanters and another for coercers to modify that ability (i.e. they are now useless), why should we be looking forward to change?  Something that you (Aeralik) spent time designing is now moot.

[Fendaria]

Aeralik wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

The net result of making buffs raidwide would be a set of 4 classes that alone bring massive power to a raid force. This might be imbalanced, but I'd rather 2 bards and 2 chanters could bring that massive power than needing to kick 4 other less desirable classes (e.g brawlers and summoners) to shoehorn in 4 more buffbots. This unfortunate mechanic as it is at the moment is a massive barrier to non-hardcore raiding, and even in hardcore guilds how many people can say they're playing a bard/chanter because they really want to, and how many have to admit they're playing one because it was the only class the guild were recruiting?

But would you really bring those supposed less desirable classes?  Bards and enchanters are brought along to maximize the dps of the raid.  If you make it so you need a token dirge, troub, coercer and illy then you just shift to bringing along those known for super high dps like the preds and sorcerors. It's just shifting the problem from one set of classes to another. 

Something we are working on is to make every class desirable.  It's something that takes time though.  I don't see bards or enchanters really getting raid wide buffs though.  Even if they were made raidwide you still would need to bring them along for the other stuff like tandem, IA, TC, epic procs, etc which means they are still highly desired for these buffs.

One potential way to handle this is to look at why there are so many bards and enchanters needed on a raid and address those areas by 'sharing the wealth'.

Take mana regen.  Perhaps other classes could be given non stacking mana regen powers, not as effective as the bard/enchanter regen, which will remain the best in the game, but enough that a raid doesn't feel like it has to have a bard/enchanter for mana regen.

For example, summoners have the hearts/shards.  Perhaps they could be strengthened to create a 2 minute 'dot' of mana regen similar to the symbols/relics.  They'd be about 50% the power return of similar bard/enchanter buff, and wouldn't work if the bard/enchanter mana buff was already effecting the current character.

Fendaria

[xKHONSx]

Aeralik wrote:

But would you really bring those supposed less desirable classes?  Bards and enchanters are brought along to maximize the dps of the raid.  If you make it so you need a token dirge, troub, coercer and illy then you just shift to bringing along those known for super high dps like the preds and sorcerors. It's just shifting the problem from one set of classes to another. 

Something we are working on is to make every class desirable.  It's something that takes time though.  I don't see bards or enchanters really getting raid wide buffs though.  Even if they were made raidwide you still would need to bring them along for the other stuff like tandem, IA, TC, epic procs, etc which means they are still highly desired for these buffs.

You've had over four years to remedy this problem and are still no closer to a solution now than when the game launched.

The only way you will make every class desirable is if you make every class have near identical skills/spells/powers to one another within an archetype.  The game is already slowly making it's way towards this end considering you just share existing abilities from one class and give it to another via AA's.  There is no real innovation going on, just copying and pasting.  It's either every class be almost a cookie cutter copy of all other classes in their archetype, which would bore everyone, or leave it as is and have specialty, which creates the current problem of every class not being desirable.

The other way to make all 24 classes desirable on the raid is via some Power Rangers type stuff.  Every pair of subclasses grants some kind of desirable raid-wide buff when in a raid together and/or all six classes in an archetype offer some sort of raid-wide buff that is absolutely essential to progression.  The problem with this is that they would once again just copy and paste existing buffs in order to do this.  Buffs gained from a system like this would step on the toes of certain classes and then those very classes would be in an uproar.

IMO what they should have done with the advent of AA's back in KoS was completely redo all classes in the game.  Since they obviously cannot balance 24 individual classes they should have just scrapped the entire concept of classes and culled it down to 12 subclasses.  From there they could have taken the defining abilities between the former companion classes and offered them through AA's.  This would have actually given much more meaning to AA's and would have also given many more choices.  The grass would never been greener on the other side since all you would have to do is spec for what you want.  Also, it would have made balancing a much easier job for them.

In the end nothing will ever be balanced and all 24 classes will never be desirable on a raid.

[Cannon]

Faelgalad wrote:

Main Problems is, Bards are lacking, as Bards lack DPS which helps in Rest of game.

Wizard > Warlock > Coercer = Conjurer = Necro = Illu

(roughly)

There is not a lot of DPS difference between four of the mage classes.

Assassin > Ranger > Briga = Swashi > Dirge > Troub

Illu and Coercer brings a real lot to a Group/Raid, they outright dominate on Mana-Reg, so far away, that in our Raids the bards often cancel mana reg.

The Bard DPS is a mess! And only real dedicated player stick with them.

Lack of DPS = Lack of Fun.

I love my Troub, but I puke that Illu's and Furies can out-dps me significantly, I lie with 3-5k in Raid, our Illu's in 4-7k and Furies on Damage Mod with buffs 3-7k. And we are just a disciplined 2-raiddays VP clear raidcom.

For soloing, my RoK legendary Swash kills easier, then my RoK Myth equipped Troub.

1. Fix Spell/Combat Art Damage Scaling! Broken Level 51+

2. Fix Troub Debuffs

I totally agree.  Does anyone honestly use Tap Essence to gain back power??  I think the thing cost more to cast then you get back.  Why not add an AA that truely makes that a tap and not a poke.  I try to debuff every thing but it doesn't seem to be worth it as I am killing my DPS.  They only time that it is worth it is on a group encounter when I have PoTM casted.

[Oakum]

Playmea@Guk wrote:

Faelgalad wrote:

I totally agree.  Does anyone honestly use Tap Essence to gain back power??  I think the thing cost more to cast then you get back.  Why not add an AA that truely makes that a tap and not a poke.  I try to debuff every thing but it doesn't seem to be worth it as I am killing my DPS.  They only time that it is worth it is on a group encounter when I have PoTM casted.

To muddy the waters even more, why is a utility class worried more about dpsing themselves then providing utility for the other classes in the group/raid? Just like healers, DPS for non DPS classes should be secondary, IMO, and worried about when someones primary role is not needed like a druids healing on trash for example. 

Its understandable though, especially if you have played the class for years and want to do something "different" but not give up the class you love.

Its also understandable when raids push for higher DPS from everyone.

On a personal note, healing kills my dps (which I can be outdpsed by clerics and shaman which is just wrong since DPS is the druids main secondary while they are buffers/debuffers as their secondary). Give me raid wide heals or single/group regens that last a minute so I can DPS more. LoL.  

So whats the fix? Give long raid wide buffs/debuffs and let the bards dps more? Then all the mobs would have to be changed to make up for the increased DPS and/or have more immunites/buffs given to them for balance.  Make all their buffs shorter so they have to spam them or choose which ones to spam at what time and they dont have time to worry about DPS?  Unless they had to pick and choose constantly which ones to cast when, it would just be "spamming buttons" in a lot of peoples opinions and unpopular especially for those used to being "buff/rez bots". lol. Who knows.

On the not about any classes abilities, none should have any that are "useless" but all do.

I wonder how many bards "main" or first character was/is a high DPS class and they really want to play that with the utility  and "wanted" feeling of being a highly sought after class added.  Probably shouldnt have said that but oh well. Flame away, lol.

[Cannon]

I totally understand that "Bards" are not a dps class and that they are a utility class.  My point is they give us CA's and Spells that are midway. 

1. Tap Essence - supposed to tap the power but does higher damage.  I don't use this spell to grab back power but to nuke.

2. Our Debuffs do next to nothing compared to (defilers yet they are healers and warders as well) Why not beef these up make them debuff a little more so it is worth it to cast.

[Rainmare]

what I think needs to be done is one of three things A) scrap 24 classes, bring it back to 12. the good/evil thing waste of time, since NOTHING in game does anything with it other then a starting city and a class choice.

there's no need for 2 versions of Shaman, Enchanter, Rogue, Bard, Druid, Cleric, monk, warrior

there should be paladin, Sk, conjy, necro, shaman, enchanter, rogue, bard, druid, cleric, monk, warrior.

12 classes. 24 raid slots. gee, odds of getting the 'lesser' class just shot up some, didn't it.

b) eliminate the raid limit/up it considerably.

make it so that if you got 24 'optimized' that another group of the 'left overs' can come play.

c ) MAJOR near OP buffage to some classes. your monks/crusaders/conjy/necro so that they have something in thier arsenal that just makes a raidforce drool. face it alot of the 'radiwide' buffs for these classes are a joke. especially paladin/conjy/necro. the pally is a raid wide wisdom increase and a tiny heal amount increase. your better off taking a dirge and having them just cycle Gravitas through the healers. only thing I think the summoners get is hearts and shards. which are no where near what a bard or a chanter can give in power. at least SKs got the mage group loving DeathMarch. one of the brawlers got a raid wide tiny dps increaser...I forget which. still not what a dirge gives, but at least it's raid wide.

Barely anyone plays a bard, not only becuase of the supposed solo issue, but becuase they have to do a ton more work in a raid setting. they have to DPS, dirges also have to rez and clear effects, they have to time thier abilities like Jcap and Gravitas among the raid/eachother, for mythcial they have to coordiante and time thier CoB/PoTMs with eachother.

they are just more of a hassle to play then alot of people enjoy.

you got 24 classes, and 24 slots, and about half your classes bring virtually nothing to the table that some other class doesn't do ten times better in a raid. and then you have some classes that bring so much to a group that every group needs 1 or 2 of them.

Like Aerlik, do tell me, what does a Paladin bring to a raid that makes him desirable? he's not a tank. that's the Guardian's job. the OT position can easily be filled by a Berserker. the raid wide buff is a joke. Amends isn't an issue in a raid setting. really all a paladin bring to a raid is poor dps, a little spot healing here and there if you don't have a Druid doing it. Rezzing is pointless with 2 other classes rez in combat and have a football field longer range on thier rez then pallies do. (and gee, one of them is the Dirge).

I don't see much there unless you fight tooth and nail for the OT slot. (wich usually means you have to be 2-3 times the player in skill then the Zerker your going against)

And then there's the question....what can you give a paladin that won't get one of your 23 other classes to scream foul? can't give them more aggro, Warriors would pitch a fit. Can't give them more healing, lest I crunch the Druid/cleric toes. more damage? unless they start parsing like a swash, it's not enough. and of course the scouts would scream.

So where left with maybe a raid buff. but then it has to be SO powerful, that a raid would say 'grab that pally for X buff' and then I bet your support classes will pitch a fit.

And it's the same for Brawlers and Summoners. if you beef up something they have now, your going to [Removed for Content] off more then you'll appease. if you give them something new, it has to be so powerful it'll still [Removed for Content] everyone else off.

[Treznet]

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

what I think needs to be done is one of three things A) scrap 24 classes, bring it back to 12. the good/evil thing waste of time, since NOTHING in game does anything with it other then a starting city and a class choice.

there's no need for 2 versions of Shaman, Enchanter, Rogue, Bard, Druid, Cleric, monk, warrior

there should be paladin, Sk, conjy, necro, shaman, enchanter, rogue, bard, druid, cleric, monk, warrior.

12 classes. 24 raid slots. gee, odds of getting the 'lesser' class just shot up some, didn't it.

This will never happen. Your suggesting us to go back in time to 1999 and it to be eq1 all over again.  If hell froze over and somehow this came to be, eq2 would be over because nearly everyone would quit.

[Rainmare]

yeah yeah....excpet EQ1 is still going just fine with no problem. face it, the raid game is flat out barred from for some classes. they simply cannot raid, if certain other classes are present, unless they are a guild/raid leader themselves. the Paladin is a prime example of this, as are both Summoners.

there is simply nothing they bring to the table that another class cannot outshine them on, and by a signifigant margin. A paladin does not tank as well as the guard. period. he has a shot agaisnt a zerker, but the paladin has to be a better player overall then the zerker has to be for that spot. thier raidwide buff is embarassing, thier rez worthless due to it's range, thier healing is a joke. and thier dps, even in offensive stace, aa specced for it, doesn't amount to anything much higher then a bard.

Summoners don't touch the dps of any mage, they offer virtually nothign to a raid but pet pulling (shaman/temp usually do that) and shards/hearts, which no one really needs with the present requirment of a bard and chanter in every group/manastone/power potions. unless said summoner is exceptionally well geared/aa specced/exceptional player.

Lets go back to EQ1, please. Paladins had raid worthy buffs. (Brell line)  they made excellent offtank/add control with stuns/root. their fear immunity didn't force them to cripple another aspect of thier character (in this case you either cripple survivability or dps by taking wis line over sta/str). they were the only battle rezzer, and the range on teh spell a hell of a lot longer then 1m.

Summoners did good dps. they had the shard/heart items. they had other summoned items/abilities that made them worth having around (necro corpse summoning and mage baubles come to mind) the only classes I recall, mage wise, that outdid a mage/necro in dps was the wizard.

the point being is that they were actually wanted. you wanted a paladin at least for the Brell raid/group wide HP buff. they were THE offtank, and had abilities to do the job the best. you wanted the mage for damage, and mod rods for people without chanty buffs or for the extra boost on occasion. necro did good damage, had the hearts, and could help recover a raid if things went south.

there was no raid limit early on, and mobs usually had a ton more hp and massive abilities to make up for it. or special scripts that made them tough. Raid ring events come to mind. liek in PoFire, or the Rathe Council event. Raid mobs with Fear that actually meant something. Death Touches. there may have been 60 people on the raid, but I promise you almost every class was there. there was no reason NOT to take a paladin, or a shadowknight, or a monk, or a mage.

[Bruener]

It is ridiculous that raids want to roll with 4-5 bards and 4-5 enchanters.  They should not be allowed so many raid spots period, add on to that the fact that enchanters bring quite a bit of dps along with their awesome utility.  You could literally drops enchanter and bard dps in half and still want 4 of each in a raid.

That being said I agree with the OP.  This is something that I thought should have been implemented a long time ago.  Make enchanter/bard abilities raid wide.  Yes it makes it seem like enchanters and bards are being beefed up even more but it will have the opposite effect of freeing up some slots for other classes.  That is the place to start.  Yes, most likely those other spots will be freed up for a 2nd of another class like a pure dps class, another healer, or a brig....but, unlike the enchanter/bard problem any of them could slide into the raid not making it almost a necessity to roll with 2-3 of a single class type.  After you change how enchanters and bards work in a raid than you can increase the desireability of some of the classes that aren't finding a spot on raids as often.  Buff summoners for crying out loud.  They should not be out dps'd by enchanters, they should be T1 dps OR give them utility buffs that they can bring to the raid like Peace of Mind.

Brawlers, there is a can of worms.  Increase their DPS, give them some sweet debuffs or something.  No, I don't think they should tank like plate tanks, hell why they would want to have to compete for those 2-3 spots on a raid I have no clue.  Lets be serious, 90% of brawlers care more about their DPS than their tanking.

Back on track.  Fix Enchanter/Bards in 2009.  Stop giving them stuff and start making it so 1 of each bard/enchanter is definitely wanted on a raid, but more than that and it is not worth it.

[krrr]

Ok let's assume that enchanter and bard buffs are raid wide. What about single-target buffs? Like TC, IA, stuff like that.

[Bruener]

Well with the way gear and AAs are going TC and IA are moving further and further away from being god-like.  I know as a SK with proc gear I can have over 100% DA without IA and have something like 60% cast speed.  Not saying that they are useless, but they are not as good as they were before...so make their group buffs raid wide and instead of that 3rd and 4th enchanter or 3rd and 4th bard on a raid it would be more beneficial to bring other classes, or at least prosides a lot more versatility.

[Wrapye]

If enchanters buffs are made raid-wide, the illusionist mythical will need to be reworked, since one of the major abilities is has is to make the haste buff group-wide.

Personally I would like to see enchanters have an emphasis other than dps.  It really isn't what the class should be about.  But that is all that the developers can see.  They seemingly have blinders on, only looking at dps that each class does and balances on that.

[de lori]

Bruener wrote:

Well with the way gear and AAs are going TC and IA are moving further and further away from being god-like.  I know as a SK with proc gear I can have over 100% DA without IA and have something like 60% cast speed.  Not saying that they are useless, but they are not as good as they were before...so make their group buffs raid wide and instead of that 3rd and 4th enchanter or 3rd and 4th bard on a raid it would be more beneficial to bring other classes, or at least prosides a lot more versatility.

you also havent thought of the AAs they got in TSO.....you could make all their buffs raidwide and they would still be wanted over other classes for each group for the bard/chanter endline AAs alone

[acctlc]

Everytime I read a thread like this I get so depressed about the state of summoners.  But in the end I agree that the current need for so many chanters and bards in a raid is ridiculous.  There is a reason most summoners have rerolled and it never should have been allowed to be the case!

[liveja]

Oakum wrote:

I wonder how many bards "main" or first character was/is a high DPS class and they really want to play that with the utility and "wanted" feeling of being a highly sought after class added. 

My first character was a Swashy. When I created my Troubie, it was with the idea that at 80th level I'd be a buff-bot & not have to spend every fight jumping around like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Since then, I've grown to love my Troubie for his own abilities, & think that he's every bit as much fun to play -- group or solo -- as my Swashy.

I don't understand why more people don't play Bards.

[Banditman]

One thing that Warhammer does very well is make their "healing" classes fun to play.  There really aren't any "support" classes there, so you can't do much in the way of comparison there.

In Warhammer, most of the healing classes "require" the healer to deal damage in order to effectively heal.  It sounds weird when you talk about it in the EQ realm, but it actually plays quite well.

The problem of people having high DPS classes but not being "wanted" is an old one, and largely relevant simply because it's easy to measure and quantify.  "Support" classes are very, very difficult to measure and quantify.

[Banadux]

I think the move to raidwide songs and buffs is potentially a good start.

Why not add this for all epic encounters?

If your raid lacks...

Fighters - Mob gains 50% mitigation versus all

Crusaders - Mob gains 110% of target health harm touch

Brawlers - Mob gains 50% mend

Shamans - Mob gains 500,000 regenerating ward

Druids - Mob gains 1% health per tick

Clerics - Mob gains 1,000 point heal per hit reactive

Summoner - Mob gains ability to summon an epic add at 75% and 25%

Enchanter - Mob gains ability to AE mez

Sorcerer - Mob gains ability to AE nuke for 12k

Predator - Mob gains ability to AE clear targets every 15 seconds

Bard - Mob gains proc of 2,000 on every spell or combat art

Rogue - Mob gains ability to drop mit for 10,000 versus all

You won't need to have the full 24, but at least one each of the 12 or your raid becomes less than optimal.

[Full_Metal_Mage]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Oakum wrote:

I wonder how many bards "main" or first character was/is a high DPS class and they really want to play that with the utility and "wanted" feeling of being a highly sought after class added. 

My first character was a Swashy. When I created my Troubie, it was with the idea that at 80th level I'd be a buff-bot & not have to spend every fight jumping around like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Since then, I've grown to love my Troubie for his own abilities, & think that he's every bit as much fun to play -- group or solo -- as my Swashy.

I don't understand why more people don't play Bards.

Because bards suck at soloing. I know this because I play one of each. If you think a troubador is as good as soloing as a swashbuckler, then you must not know how to play a swashbuckler.

[liveja]

Full_Metal_Mage wrote:

If you think a troubador is as good as soloing as a swashbuckler, then you must not know how to play a swashbuckler.

I said my Troubie was "as fun" to solo; I didn't say he solo'd "as well." Obviously, that distinction whiffed right over your head

If you think Bards "suck at soloing", then you must not know how to play one. My Troubie doesn't suck at anything, so maybe I'm just that much better playing one than you are?

Learn 2 Troubie.

[Bruener]

The argument that the numbers for bards on a raid is justified because of the way they solo is ridiculous.  Every class can easily solo to level 80.  Just because not every class can go out and kill yellow heroics does not mean they should be OP'd in their representation in raid content.  Hell more classes cannot kill yellow heroics than classes that can kill heroics.  Some of those toons are lucky to find 1 raid spot in a raid, but most likely are replaced with a bard.

This game has been completely dumbed down to allow you to level to 80 solo.  Group content is made for groups, why ar people suprised they can't solo it?

[Asif]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Oakum wrote:

I wonder how many bards "main" or first character was/is a high DPS class and they really want to play that with the utility and "wanted" feeling of being a highly sought after class added. 

My first character was a Swashy. When I created my Troubie, it was with the idea that at 80th level I'd be a buff-bot & not have to spend every fight jumping around like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Since then, I've grown to love my Troubie for his own abilities, & think that he's every bit as much fun to play -- group or solo -- as my Swashy.

I don't understand why more people don't play Bards.

Troub is my main and the reason i believe most people dont want to play a bard is because they want to do the dps and be on top of the parse which we all know a bard NEVER is.

I can make the parse but never on top, and actually most other bards i have seen are just buff bots which just sickens me if you are going to play one at least play him right.

I dont really know how they can fix the raid mess they have made but making our buffs raid wide will not fix it maybe there is to many classes in this game is the biggest problem.

And as far as soloing a bard can solo fine but no way as good as any of the other scouts classes.

[liveja]

Asif wrote:

Troub is my main and the reason i believe most people dont want to play a bard is because they want to do the dps and be on top of the parse which we all know a bard NEVER is.

I can make the parse but never on top, and actually most other bards i have seen are just buff bots which just sickens me if you are going to play one at least play him right.

I dont really know how they can fix the raid mess they have made but making our buffs raid wide will not fix it maybe there is to many classes in this game is the biggest problem.

And as far as soloing a bard can solo fine but no way as good as any of the other scouts classes.

I agree entirely.

[Noaani]

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

The Bard and Chanter classes just aren't fun

I disagree 100%.

Coercers are probably the single most enjoyable class to play in the game. Charming a mob and then setting it to attack for you = absolute win. Illusionists in groups are a very fun class to play as well, though they are less enjoyable solo (they play almost like a summoner, with a weaker pet, some crowd control but less DPS until you get some ggod gear at level 80).

As to making bard chanter buffs raid wide...

Assume a raid has 4 bards currently. If all a bards group buffs were made raidwise, they would suddenly then want a dirge running all defensive buffs so the MT can stay up, but they would also want a second dirge running offensive buffs for the DPS. Troubs have a few defensive buffs as well, which although not enough to put one in the MT group for a raid, are definatly useful enough to have running if they are raid wide. Add in a second troub for offensive buffs and you will still want 4 bards.

Chanter group buffs are a different story, if they were made raid wide it would have little impact, as chanters are bought to raids for their single target buffs.

Basically, if all bard and chanter group buffs were made raidwide, a raid with 4 of each will continue to take 4 of each, and they will be better off for doing so than they are now. If they then lose a bard for whatever reason, it is the whole raid that will feel it, so guilds will be more intent on always having 2 of each bard for every raid than they are now.

[Lleren]

Noaani wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

The Bard and Chanter classes just aren't fun

I disagree 100%.

Coercers are probably the single most enjoyable class to play in the game. Charming a mob and then setting it to attack for you = absolute win. Illusionists in groups are a very fun class to play as well, though they are less enjoyable solo (they play almost like a summoner, with a weaker pet, some crowd control but less DPS until you get some ggod gear at level 80).

As to making bard chanter buffs raid wide...

Assume a raid has 4 bards currently. If all a bards group buffs were made raidwise, they would suddenly then want a dirge running all defensive buffs so the MT can stay up, but they would also want a second dirge running offensive buffs for the DPS. Troubs have a few defensive buffs as well, which although not enough to put one in the MT group for a raid, are definatly useful enough to have running if they are raid wide. Add in a second troub for offensive buffs and you will still want 4 bards.

Chanter group buffs are a different story, if they were made raid wide it would have little impact, as chanters are bought to raids for their single target buffs.

Basically, if all bard and chanter group buffs were made raidwide, a raid with 4 of each will continue to take 4 of each, and they will be better off for doing so than they are now. If they then lose a bard for whatever reason, it is the whole raid that will feel it, so guilds will be more intent on always having 2 of each bard for every raid than they are now.

     Honestly The main thing I think making the buffs raid wide would do, is make it easier for the more casual raiding guilds to start out down the path to progression and lovely fabled loots.  Many more Casual Guilds have a hard time recruiting the 5 bards, 4 enchanters that some others may take for granted.

[Melli]

Llyryn@Kithicor wrote:

Noaani wrote:

TuinalOfTheNexus wrote:

The Bard and Chanter classes just aren't fun

I disagree 100%.

Coercers are probably the single most enjoyable class to play in the game. Charming a mob and then setting it to attack for you = absolute win. Illusionists in groups are a very fun class to play as well, though they are less enjoyable solo (they play almost like a summoner, with a weaker pet, some crowd control but less DPS until you get some ggod gear at level 80).

As to making bard chanter buffs raid wide...

Assume a raid has 4 bards currently. If all a bards group buffs were made raidwise, they would suddenly then want a dirge running all defensive buffs so the MT can stay up, but they would also want a second dirge running offensive buffs for the DPS. Troubs have a few defensive buffs as well, which although not enough to put one in the MT group for a raid, are definatly useful enough to have running if they are raid wide. Add in a second troub for offensive buffs and you will still want 4 bards.

Chanter group buffs are a different story, if they were made raid wide it would have little impact, as chanters are bought to raids for their single target buffs.

Basically, if all bard and chanter group buffs were made raidwide, a raid with 4 of each will continue to take 4 of each, and they will be better off for doing so than they are now. If they then lose a bard for whatever reason, it is the whole raid that will feel it, so guilds will be more intent on always having 2 of each bard for every raid than they are now.

     Honestly The main thing I think making the buffs raid wide would do, is make it easier for the more casual raiding guilds to start out down the path to progression and lovely fabled loots.  Many more Casual Guilds have a hard time recruiting the 5 bards, 4 enchanters that some others may take for granted.

I'v been in several good raiding guilds, one that was struggling to get on its feet and the other well established and raiding regularly.  We never said "Raid cancelled, we only have two bards" or "Raid cancelled 'cause our third illy didn't show up".  We ALWAYS ran with what we had - bruiser, monk, SK, whatever - and we still won.  Maybe not in WW1st style, but we were the second guild to clear most of the RoK content before TSO came out.

To have a perfect raid, you can use your min/max group makeup and so on.  And there are many folks that do that.  A raid can make it work with whoever is on hand and end up being a stronger guild for it in the long run.

[Terron]

Noaani wrote:

 Illusionists in groups are a very fun class to play as well, though they are less enjoyable solo (they play almost like a summoner, with a weaker pet, some crowd control but less DPS until you get some ggod gear at level 80).

My illusionist does not play like my conjie when solo. When soloing he is all about crowd control - keeping the mob rooted/stunned/mezzed so it does not get a chance to hit back. Or keeping a group mezzed whilst burning them down one at a time. In extreme cases using the pet to keep one group busy, mezzing a second group and burning down a spearate single mob. The pet provides some extra control and dps but is very much in a secondary role.

[Rijacki]

Why is it no one complains about the double ups on healer classes?  Many raid forces will take 2 templars, why is that acceptable but a double up on illusionist or dirge is not?

[liveja]

Llyryn@Kithicor wrote:

Honestly The main thing I think making the buffs raid wide would do, is make it easier for the more casual raiding guilds to start out down the path to progression and lovely fabled loots.

"Casual" raiding alliances are already doing that. You don't have to restrict your raid forces to just one guild, you know.

[Rayche]

Doubling up on Templars wouldn't be necessary if Inquisitors came close to templars in healing/buffing. Or if you gave the off tank class something that made them pair up well with Inquisitors versus templars.