Inexperienced players and grouping

[RaveDragon9]

Just a thought, so please be gently on this newbie...some of us inexperienced players are actually afraid to group with those more so, because (just perhaps) we don't catch on as quickly, or don't always "get it" on the first try....and I don't want to drag down the group because I'm too stupid to "get it"... I know I've played with some members that kinda bit my head off when I asked a question or tried to understand what to do/when.......or heaven forbid, made a fatal mistake...    That tends to turn one off on accepting group invitations, or even asking for some help on harder zones...

Something to keep in mind, that's all.

Peace

[thephantomposter]

I can relate :0)

[Kordran]

If you're actually new to the game then it's a good idea to let other players in your group know, and tell them that you would welcome any advice. Otherwise, yes, the tendency would be for players to think you're an alternate (alt) character of a high-level main.

Now, if you're level 80 and don't have much grouping experience, I'd recommend looking for a guild that is "casual friendly" that does a lot of grouping and questing. Just be upfront about your lack of experience, and your willingness to learn, and it's all good. Where people get into trouble is when they claim to be a great player, but really don't know how to play their class well. Don't be that guy, and you'll be fine.

[ashen1973]

It is sad that a lot of people seem to forget that they where new and inexperienced once (and, in my experience, a lot of the people that think they know the best actually dont know quite as much as they think)

I would also recommend the guild route.

Being a part of a larger group is the best way to learn.

There are many great guilds out there, full of members who will be mroe than happy toanswer your questions

[RaveDragon9]

You're right, and the guild route is a great idea. I do belong to a guild, but it has evolved into a raid heavy one. Unfortunately, I'm not a new player, and I've gotten a character to 67/68 on my own, so it would be natural to presume that I have the experience/knowledge on how to play...but the difference between whaling away on a monster vs. group strategy/methods is a wide one...should I just hang a "dummy looking for a mentor" sign out?.../grin/ Thank you ALL for your replies!

[Skywarrior]

It's hard to deny that there are jerks playing the game.  When you run across them, just make a note and avoid them in the future.  I think you will find, however, that most players are usually very willing to spend some time "showing the ropes" to an inexperienced player if that player shows any willingness or desire to learn.  Don't be shy about letting the group know your experience level.  Inexperience can be rectified through experience, so I've heard. 

True, not every group wants to spend an hour or two teaching someone a 30 minute dungeon.  Even guild groups have that problem occasionally.  Time is a precious commodity for a lot of players.  Just be upfront about your experience level and indicate a willingness to take advice and learn and many, perhaps most, players will be more than willing to help you along your journey.

[Kordran]

RaveDragon9 wrote:

You're right, and the guild route is a great idea. I do belong to a guild, but it has evolved into a raid heavy one. Unfortunately, I'm not a new player, and I've gotten a character to 67/68 on my own, so it would be natural to presume that I have the experience/knowledge on how to play...but the difference between whaling away on a monster vs. group strategy/methods is a wide one...should I just hang a "dummy looking for a mentor" sign out?.../grin/ Thank you ALL for your replies!

Presumably you have some friends in your guild that you've gotten close to. Talk them about your situation, and see if they would be willing to do something like start a mentoring group at your level, and do some of the T7 instances. The benefits there would be that, because of the mentors, there's a lot more "wiggle room" for you to make mistakes and not have it be fatal to the group. A guild that's unwilling to help their members with something as basic as this, well...

That all said, I've seen the kind of situation that you're in when you have "mixed" guilds (guilds with a mix of casual players and more serious raiders); sometimes it's like mixing oil and water. Raiding can be it's own universe, with different requirements and expectations of the players, and a whole other level of play that's really beyond the experience of casual groupers and soloers.

[Evette23]

The sad part is when players are closing in on level 80 and still inexperienced at grouping. Do yourselves a favor and for the love of god don't solo to level 80. Join those groups early, Fallen Gate is fun, and learn the ropes. It's not hard and as long as you use a little common sense you won't kill the group (unless you are tank). Stay behind the tank, take care to not aggro additional mobs, if you get more than 1 mob make sure you are all fighting the same mob.... and that's about it.

Joining a guild understands you are inexperienced and will help you learn is good if you can do it. It really isn't hard though. After an hour in a decent group you should have a good understanding of what to do. Some stuff requires a little coordination especially later in the game, so get your grouping experience while you're young!

[Nadr]

if you are over 20 and join an group people will assume you know what you are doing.

If you dont... just say upfront "Hi. Im a bit of a newb here"  (insert your words of choice)

I just came back after a year off and alot is new to me so I say it all the time 

[Kordran]

Just to add to that, for new folks reading this, if you are just starting out, I would suggest that you not begin with a tank or healer. A DPS support class, such as a Dirge or Troubador, or a straight DPS class such as an Assassin or Wizard, are generally better choices for that first class where you're getting your feet wet.

While a plate-wearing, dual-weilding Berserker of Doom(tm) or an evil death-dealing Shadow Knight may sound really cool to you, players are going to expect you to tank. The Fury sure sounds neat because it's like they're a Wizard who can heal themselves, except that players are going to expect you to heal in groups. But those are two general class types that can result in very unpleasant grouping experiences when the players are inexperienced.

If you really want to be a fighter, for example, start out with a support class as your first toon and watch how the tanks work (presuming good experiences with them in groups). Ask them questions, about how they manage encounters, how they pull, the gear they wear, the stats that are important to them, the whole deal. Read the class forums on the type of fighter that you're interested in. Then start working on your tank, and focus on grouping. While watching and learning from others is a good start, experience will ultimately be your best teacher. Just don't start tanking for groups with a blank slate and no real idea of what you're doing.

[Anfauglith]

One thing too if you're 80 and are unexperienced with grouping...refrain for asking for groups for the tso harder instances or at least be honest and say you may have problems with applying strategies.

I don't mind helping someone new to understand strats if they clarify that they need it..there's nothing worse than taking someone in group and going for a specific (and relativly) instance while thinking he knows how he's doing...and realizing at the first named you most likely won't go further because he got serious problems applying strats.

I don't fully agree with Kordran, starting with a tank is a very good way to learn fast how the game goes! But you need to dedicate yourself to understand game mechanics starting pretty early. If you don't do that you'll most likely make a very bad tank after you've done 80 lvls of soloing...

You're examples (mostly with the fury) is unfortunatly all too common and real group breakers. Furies are awsome healers...yet they have a VERY bad names in pugs because lots of them just need to realize they are healers...

On the other side it's true it's easier to start playing a support (bard or ench) or straight dps(perdator or sorcerer) for your first char but it may become pretty boring depending on what you wanna do with your char.

[Spyderbite]

The best advice to veteran players.. and I remind my guild mates regularly about this when I sense some impatience is.. "We were all newbs at one time".

Adapted from IRC back in 1994.

[M0rticia]

If you are new to the game or new to an instance, PLEASE let your group know ahead of time! This will save a lot of frustration and unnecessary deaths. If you don't speak up then I will assume you know what you are doing and know the specifics of the zone we are in. There's nothing wrong with letting the group know you are new. We were ALL new at one time. We were ALL inexperienced the first time we went to a zone/instance.

If I know you haven't been to the zone, I will take time to explain things. Taking a couple of minutes to explain will save everyone time in the end. If the group does get killed, at least we understand that some people are new and might not have the hang of things yet.

Most of the people I know are totally cool when people tell us they have never been to a zone before. Don't think that all players are going to put you down or be jerks about it. There might be a few jerks out there but, trust me, most people will appreciate the info.

[Atreyube]

As everyone is saying, jsut let us know, and we will know! I know it gets very frustrating to get halfway through an instance and then someone aggro's an entire mob and gets everyone whiped, or simply was just being careless. But, hey, we were all "newbs" at one time or another. Just let us know and we will help out, .

[thephantomposter]

Kordran wrote:

Just to add to that, for new folks reading this, if you are just starting out, I would suggest that you not begin with a tank or healer. A DPS support class, such as a Dirge or Troubador, or a straight DPS class such as an Assassin or Wizard, are generally better choices for that first class where you're getting your feet wet.

While a plate-wearing, dual-weilding Berserker of Doom(tm) or an evil death-dealing Shadow Knight may sound really cool to you, players are going to expect you to tank. The Fury sure sounds neat because it's like they're a Wizard who can heal themselves, except that players are going to expect you to heal in groups. But those are two general class types that can result in very unpleasant grouping experiences when the players are inexperienced.

If you really want to be a fighter, for example, start out with a support class as your first toon and watch how the tanks work (presuming good experiences with them in groups). Ask them questions, about how they manage encounters, how they pull, the gear they wear, the stats that are important to them, the whole deal. Read the class forums on the type of fighter that you're interested in. Then start working on your tank, and focus on grouping. While watching and learning from others is a good start, experience will ultimately be your best teacher. Just don't start tanking for groups with a blank slate and no real idea of what you're doing.

My first toon was a zerker, luckily I am in a small guild and I know the people, that helped a lot. Unfortunately we all work shifts opposite each other. So I ended up hitching a ride with others, mostly didn't work out so well, they expected me to lead the group and I did not know the area or how to hold aggro at the time. In saying that, there are some great people who did have patience.

Still not very good at playing my roll lol. I do like my Bruiser the best with my Shadow Knight a close second. I recently rerolled on a pvp server and building up my toons again. I find that pvp forces you to learn your toon better.

[Lleren]

When learning a new character I find its best to read as much of the online forums as possible that relate to the class but I've been aroudn a bit.

Some basic skills to practice for most characters ( I primarilly play melee )

Moving around obstacles, jumping, moving past mobs without gaining aggro( attacking you )

assisting the tank or whomever is declard to be main assist (MA) basically just target him, you attacks will hit the mob he has targeted this way.

Wait untill the mob/mobs are back to the tank and the tank has stopped moving to attack/debuff, healers are on thier own =D

if you use a pair of weapons try to have matched delays, 4.0 is generally considered ideal.

Chat windows, set up one or two your choice, but seperate most of the spam out your uppermost chat tab, which should be for groupchat( I have raid, group, guild and tells on one tab, but I read fast) my upper tab on the other chat window is level chat and custom channels.

even if you do not want to use a mic for voicechat, try to have a setup where you can listen to voicechat, oftentimes its quite usefull, some folsk won't ue it at all, but if you can at least listen you are ahead of the game.

Scouts do make great starting charcters, but I would avoid Assassin/Ranger/Brigand, they are a bit finicky to play well, wizards/warlocks may be the same. Swashbuckler probobly best scout type to start with =D  but Dirge /Troubadour get away with more

If you find an area with lots of quests to do and are enjoying yourself don't be afraid to lock your combat exp, a few dozen aa can make a huge difference, that being said try to find out the recomended aa paths for your class, and follow em, enough time to experiment once you've gotten the hang of the game a bit more =D

[Lieuen]

Many group leaders don't assume that everyone knows the strats in tricky situations. Even late in ROK most of the groups I was in had discussion for tactics at critical points - and I havn't been in a TSO instance yet where the group has assumed that no discussion is required. All of which is to say that there is no reason NOT to be up front and ask for guidance at ANY level of the game. And if you get in a group where discussion or help is cut short just remember who the leader was and avoid grouping with them again. Or more to the point, when you find a group that is helpful and supportive, make a point to thank them and let them know you'd like to join them again sometime.

[Sharakari]

Just be leary of the person in level chat that says "Looking for single healer for instance runs.. and don't suck" or "Looking for tank that doesn't suck"!  My "Spidey Sences" tell me that is NOT going to be a good run.

[Eddes]

RaveDragon9 wrote:

Just a thought, so please be gently on this newbie...some of us inexperienced players are actually afraid to group with those more so, because (just perhaps) we don't catch on as quickly, or don't always "get it" on the first try....and I don't want to drag down the group because I'm too stupid to "get it"... I know I've played with some members that kinda bit my head off when I asked a question or tried to understand what to do/when.......or heaven forbid, made a fatal mistake...    That tends to turn one off on accepting group invitations, or even asking for some help on harder zones...

Something to keep in mind, that's all.

Peace

I agreed 100% Rave.  Ive been around quite a few overly mouthly know it alls in the past (played since release) and I quit for a few months because of it.  Ive soloed by way clsot to 80 for the most part and missed out on much of the game because of this, but dont feel gipped.  Some suggestions on how to help someone play better in groups is great!  But people should be be nice about it - or at least mature..., not everyone studies on end on how to play their character and be the best of the best.  Others play just for fun or just to craft and may want to run some instances with groups just for items.  Granted I havent been tossed into one of these in a while but by watching chat I really feel for those that are bantered, called names for asking a question or always replied to by a "well technicially the percentage of the usage bleh bleh bleh"  It really takes the fun out of the "game"  <--- key word there. 

[Eddes]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just be leary of the person in level chat that says "Looking for single healer for instance runs.. and don't suck" or "Looking for tank that doesn't suck"!  My "Spidey Sences" tell me that is NOT going to be a good run.

LOL exactly

[Murchik]

Onucia@Crushbone wrote:

One thing too if you're 80 and are unexperienced with grouping...refrain for asking for groups for the tso harder instances or at least be honest and say you may have problems with applying strategies.

I'll second this. Those zones are hard as is, having someone in treasured with adept1 spells is just a recepie for failed atempt at the zone. Lower tier zone is more forgiving, so start with those.

[feldon30]

Nadr wrote:

if you are over 20 and join an group people will assume you know what you are doing.

If you dont... just say upfront "Hi. Im a bit of a newb here"  (insert your words of choice)

I just came back after a year off and alot is new to me so I say it all the time 

It takes ~1 hour to reach level 20. I hope people don't seriously expect a 20 to know what is up. I do ask if this is someone's first character though.

The overall answer to this thread is group early, group often. Every chance you get to group and learn your role in a group is helpful. Do not wait until 60's or 70's.

[Kordran]

Sharakari@Unrest wrote:

Just be leary of the person in level chat that says "Looking for single healer for instance runs.. and don't suck" or "Looking for tank that doesn't suck"! My "Spidey Sences" tell me that is NOT going to be a good run.

That honestly depends. If it's random_noobz_01 then you have a point. But it also could be that they want to run the instance (or instances) quickly, and want a tank who can handle being solo-healed (read: typically fabled/mastered) and/or a healer who doesn't need the crutch of a backup healer to keep the tank up. With a solid tank and heals, adding another DPS gives you more bang for the buck, and gets you through the instance faster. For those folks, they're not there to stop and smell the flowers -- they want to get in, get out, get their shards and get on with it.

[SageGaspar]

Just mention that you're new, people are usually more than happy to give advice but reluctant to give it unasked-for because there are some very defensive players. Even now I've played this game way too long and I know most of the instances, but on my new tank I take a second to ask if anyone has pulling tips or whatever in dungeons I haven't paid much attention to.

[DwarvesR]

RaveDragon9 wrote:

Just a thought, so please be gently on this newbie...some of us inexperienced players are actually afraid to group with those more so, because (just perhaps) we don't catch on as quickly, or don't always "get it" on the first try....and I don't want to drag down the group because I'm too stupid to "get it"... I know I've played with some members that kinda bit my head off when I asked a question or tried to understand what to do/when.......or heaven forbid, made a fatal mistake...    That tends to turn one off on accepting group invitations, or even asking for some help on harder zones...

Something to keep in mind, that's all.

Peace

As others have said -- just let us know you're "truly new" and not a lowbie alt, an dthat generally covers it.  I do know what you mean though -- once I was grouping in Fallen Gate with a friend.  I was on a mid-20's berserker I used ot have, and he was healing on his mystic.  There was a low-20's dirge soloing in there and having quite a bit of trouble every time we saw her.  I wanted dirge buffs for my zerk, and we could use more dps, so we shot her a tell sking if she'd like to join us.

She wanted to so we added her in.  And she was TERRIBLE.  But since we were doing fine as a duo anyway, we didn't boot her or anything, and figured it was becuz she was new.  I have a dirge also, so I knew what buffs I wanted and I asked for them.  It took her a bit to find a few of them, but we got it worked out.  As we played, I also offered a few tips and suggestions here and there, and by the end of the evening she was doing rather well and had become a real asset to our trio.

Once she started doing better, she did thank us, not only for the suggestions, but for also not summarily booting her when she was messing up in the beginning "like every other group I've been in has done," but instead working with her to help her to get better.

My friend and I felt pretty good after that.  Go go warm fuzzies!

[Cpt.Harlo]

People love talking about themselves and having an audience - give them a chance to explain something to you and most people will embrace it. Most players are returning players and "sorry its been a while since..." is a common phrase. I find myself very hostile with someone who is completely silent yet making a complete mess of things but very understanding with self declared newbies.

[Ylis]

feldon30 wrote:

Nadr wrote:

if you are over 20 and join an group people will assume you know what you are doing.

If you dont... just say upfront "Hi. Im a bit of a newb here"  (insert your words of choice)

I just came back after a year off and alot is new to me so I say it all the time 

It takes ~1 hour to reach level 20. I hope people don't seriously expect a 20 to know what is up. I do ask if this is someone's first character though.

The overall answer to this thread is group early, group often. Every chance you get to group and learn your role in a group is helpful. Do not wait until 60's or 70's.

And the problem is that it takes a week to get into the 70s. It is just too fast to take everything in, in addition to learning things like group mechnics, like tanks turning the mobs, backloading DPS etc.

I wish more people would take time to enjoy the journey, learn, make friends, explore.

[M0rticia]

Lieuen wrote:

and I havn't been in a TSO instance yet where the group has assumed that no discussion is required.

I'm in them occasionally. If it's a zone everyone is comfortable with and we want a quick run we'll slaughter everything and never say a word until we all say goodbye at the end of the instance.

Most groups I am in don't have strategy discussions because it is assumed everyone knows what they are doing. We just chit chat while we run through the zone.

That assumption is where problems begin. Very few people I know will ask everyone invited to the group if they have previously been to the zone. We leave the group member with the responsibility of telling us. If they let us know ahead of time, there's no problem. We'll take the time to explain things when necessary. If the group member doesn't speak up, we assume you know how to play your character and have been to the zone before.

The player and the other group members both have a responsibility here. The player should tell the group they are new to the zone/just started playing/back after a long break, etc. The group should work with you and have a little patience.