Paladin Lay of Hands Vs Harm Touch. Very unbalanced.

[Prestissimo]

Ok, so this may not belong in the paladin section, but I figured I'd put it out there for the other paladins to consider.  Our lay of hands had no cast timer, nor any power cost, and it healed for a significant amount, and stated "Replenishes health instantly. This replenishment does not have a casting time, nor does it cost power, but it has a signifigant reuse timer."  which has been reduced to a 5 minute recast, but has had power cost added to it to compensate.  Level 80, Holy touch master does about 4.5-6k on my paladin.  Harm touch has no cast time, no power cost, and dealt a significant amount, and stated "Deals a great amount of disease damage to the target that is difficult for the target to resist against.This ability does not have a casting time, nor does it cost power, but it has a significant reuse timer."  It hits for about 5-7k on an average tank geared sk, 9-15k on a high int damage geared sk, not to mention heals for a few thousand.  It's recast was reduced to 5 minutes, and did not get a power cost added.

Thats not very fair, especially considering that the shadowknight got a whole lot of other bonuses not to mention still have their feign death, and evac, and we're facing our class defining abilities possibly being taken away from us while being converted more to healers than anything.  Does anyone else find this to be disturbing or am I just way out of touch?

[Krieg]

No problems here.

[Garnaf]

I would be inclined to agree that it's a TAD unfair that Lay Hands now has a power cost while Harm Touch is still free.  But let SKs have their day, they had issues for a long time.

[Niou]

Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:

I would be inclined to agree that it's a TAD unfair that Lay Hands now has a power cost while Harm Touch is still free.  But let SKs have their day, they had issues for a long time.

What kind of reasoning is that? We're trying to get the game to the best playable state for everyone, not soothe over hurt feelings at the cost of imbalance. Not a very intelligent response.

Is it imbalanced at the moment? yes. HT can not only be reduced below Lay hands timer, it heals SK's for far too much, and now the damage is just insane. Top it all off with the fact that for some reason it costs 0 mana while they felt inclined to charge Paladins Power for the very same reduction in recast that Harm Touch got.

Will anything be done about it? most likely not.

[docpaulp]

ReverendPaqo wrote:

not to mention heals for a few thousand.

The few thousand is actually about 2116 (x1,3 on a crit) with a total of 10 aa's spent in the EoF and shadows line..0 if no points placed in Eof line.

[Shirodan]

I agree that the power cost for LoH is dumb. As for it being unbalanced, a 10k heal is more useful than a 10k nuke, so even if harm touch does a bit more, its not going to save anybody's life anytime soon. The healing on it requires AAs and is really more of a perk than a reason to use it. If you got the reverse version of our AA, where your LoH did 2k damage to the target as well, would it be worth it?

[Garnaf]

Harm Touch is not simply 'a little' more damage than Lay Hands heals for.  It's nearly 2x the amount (maybe even more than that, it's been a while since I compared them)

[Shirodan]

Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:

Harm Touch is not simply 'a little' more damage than Lay Hands heals for.  It's nearly 2x the amount (maybe even more than that, it's been a while since I compared them)

I don't have a high level pally so I can't say for sure, but with 700+ Int my death touch hits for 8k and change.

8k won't even scratch a triple up, but a 4-5k heal can still save somebody's life. Death Touch is certainly better if you solo alot (and I do), but LoH is better when grouping/raiding. Its not unbalanced if they each shine in different situations.

[Giral]

Dranikos come back to the darkside

taking Just one skill an Sk has that doesnt cost Power and comparing it to just one skill a Paladin has that does cost power is absurd .  Sk's can burn thru Power at an alarming rate and we can't hold agro without power since we need to be doing  damage for our agro, no power = no damage = no hate = sk going to lose agro .

for those who have played an Sk and a Paladin , which one would you say uses more power? if the answer is SK, then i dont see an issue with DT costing no power : P

[Niou]

Giralus wrote:

taking Just one skill an Sk has that doesnt cost Power and comparing it to just one skill a Paladin has that does cost power is absurd .  Sk's can burn thru Power at an alarming rate and we can't hold agro without power since we need to be doing  damage for our agro, no power = no damage = no hate = sk going to lose agro .

for those who have played an Sk and a Paladin , which one would you say uses more power? if the answer is SK, then i dont see an issue with DT costing no power : P

Actually, it's not absurd at all. HT and LH have forever been equals for crusaders. Other ability's have nothing to do with this at all. Its an emergency ability that has forever been on the same exact timer as our counterparts. Also, depending on the group set up, a Paladin can burn through power as fast if not faster than an SK. Group Heal, single target heals, ward, taunts, dps, cure.

While there are certain situations where can paladin can consume less power than an sk, its very situational. For instance, if my group has two healers, I'm not going to need to use my own heals as much and thus my power consumption is cut down by a good amount. Also, if I have a supreme amends target for hate that matches the encounter type for the zone, I also won't need to spam taunts as much, and instead will focus on dps in order to control hate. That would be the optimal situation of course for a group, and is rarely possible.

Lately I find myself having only one healer for some of the hardest zones. That means I have to not only dish out alot of dps, but heal myself and the group quite a bit; it costs alot of power to do so.

All of that is neither here nor there though. This has nothing to do with our range of ability's, it simply has to do with HT and LH. I mean, SK's have that tsunami like ability now that drains power at an insane rate, if an SK were to spam that too often they would find themselves OOP at every opportunity, should we then cut the power cost of all of their ability's because of that? No, that'd be stupid...right?

LH and HT are tactical emergency ability's, their power cost is not, and should not be considered based on the varying degree of power consumption, it's simply too situational to do that.

It's hilarious that anybody can say the current situation is not imbalanced.

Lay Hands:

5-6k Heal, 5 minute recast, 500 power cost.

Harm Touch:

10k Damage, 2k Heal, what is it...4ish recast? 0 power cost.

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Balance lay hands in the context of a paladin. 

Balance harm touch in the context of a shadowknight.

Just looking at lay hands, I have long thought that it is too small.  The five minute recast makes it reasonably usable.  I don't see why it should start taking up mana now, since it needed to be improved for balance sake, in my opinion, but whatever. Someone else has a different opinion.

[Glerin]

lay on hands, should like the monks "Mend" ability, be a % based heal of 60%+ in it's current tier.

[Shirodan]

Araris@Venekor wrote:

It's hilarious that anybody can say the current situation is not imbalanced.

Lay Hands:

5-6k Heal, 5 minute recast, 500 power cost.

Harm Touch:

10k Damage, 2k Heal, what is it...4ish recast? 0 power cost.

Thats not a fair or correct assement of the above abilities.

First off, as I stated before, my death touch with 700+ int hits for 8.5k (ish) at adept one, so 10k is a bit off. Secondly, the recast is 5 minutes, same as LoH. Thirdly, the 2k heal (which is actually about 1.3k) requires five AA points spent in our Shadowknight tree, thus its not fair to compare it to a pally ability which to my knowledge doesn't have a similar boost to LoH.

And I'll reiterate again, a 5k heal does not equal 5k damage. Heals are worth more than nukes when it comes to surviving a fight. If you're about to get your teeth kicked in by a ^^^ mob in a group, do you want the 10k nuke or the 5k heal?

Lastly, as far as the power cost goes for LoH, it needs to be removed. LoH isn't supposed to cost power anymore than HT is.

Edit: For what its worth, I have nothing against making LoH more powerful, but the "zomg harm touch is leaps and bounds better than LoH" is just silly.

[Niou]

Alright, I'm going off what the best of the class will do, not the worst. I don't know a single person that uses adept I spells. So i'm going off the basis that the SK has good gear and at least an adept III, if not a master. With just those basic things, 10k is not a bit off at all. Hell, my SK in beta did 11k damage with his HT and thats with crap jewelery and wearing every piece of vp gear (you almost never want to wear every piece, generally not the best in every slot).

Lay Hands Does actually have an AA group within the Shadow lines, it adds a whole 300 hp or so to the heal and is basically useless. While the SK version of the shadow lines enhancement to HT not only increases that damage, but if memory serves, reduces the recast below 5 minutes.

I know the SK I was fighting in Beta had his HT timer closer to 3 min than 4. This isn't close at all. While I agree that a heal is better than a nuke in an emergency situation (PvE wise), HT isn't just a nuke anymore, it's a heal also.

Honestly, this most likely wouldn't matter so much if I was just talking about PvE, but I'm more concerned about PvP, so yeah. The power cost needs to go.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

Harm Touch line does not heal at all. That is an AA choice.

If you compare abilities and include AA choices you would need to factor in equal points spent anywhere in the Pally EoF tree and add whatever that ability gives to the comparison (since the trees are not direct equivalents).

Also, mob or mob/self only abilities vs freindly target choice is another factor when comparing the usefulness of the abilities (besides the heal vs dammage emergency factor above). Is LoH self only? I thought it could be cast on group(raid)/friend. They are both great in different ways imo.

Anyway, biased or not, I don't find the 2 abilities way out of line with each other (PvE).

[Boethius_Permafrost]

Shirodan wrote:

And I'll reiterate again, a 5k heal does not equal 5k damage. Heals are worth more than nukes when it comes to surviving a fight. If you're about to get your teeth kicked in by a ^^^ mob in a group, do you want the 10k nuke or the 5k heal?

I like LH, but in a mix-and-min-max scenario, I think I would prefer the 10k nuke, and I agree completely with those saying HT in its current form is better than LH.  I completely disagree with any notion that the classes should be balanced on such a shallow parallel.  There are always going to be things that one class does better than another.

Lay Hands really needed help.  The reduced recast helped.  There you go.  I don't know why LH needed a new penalty added since it was improved because it was too weak.

I don't understand why the same was applied to HT.  Maybe it needed help -- I don't know -- I'm not a SK.  SK's probably need more dps if they're getting blown out of the water by warriors (dps wise).  If it were reduced just because LH was adjusted, that would be lame, but I'm willing to give the game staff the benefit of the doubt here.  Common sense.

[Giral]

add 500 power cost to Death touch . there problem solved .

i have a feeling tho that it isn't the power cost that is the real issue

[Shirodan]

Araris@Venekor wrote:

Alright, I'm going off what the best of the class will do, not the worst. I don't know a single person that uses adept I spells. So i'm going off the basis that the SK has good gear and at least an adept III, if not a master. With just those basic things, 10k is not a bit off at all. Hell, my SK in beta did 11k damage with his HT and thats with crap jewelery and wearing every piece of vp gear (you almost never want to wear every piece, generally not the best in every slot).

Lay Hands Does actually have an AA group within the Shadow lines, it adds a whole 300 hp or so to the heal and is basically useless. While the SK version of the shadow lines enhancement to HT not only increases that damage, but if memory serves, reduces the recast below 5 minutes.

I know the SK I was fighting in Beta had his HT timer closer to 3 min than 4. This isn't close at all. While I agree that a heal is better than a nuke in an emergency situation (PvE wise), HT isn't just a nuke anymore, it's a heal also.

Honestly, this most likely wouldn't matter so much if I was just talking about PvE, but I'm more concerned about PvP, so yeah. The power cost needs to go.

Heh, thanks for refering to me as 'the worst'. At master I with 700ish Int the base damage of HT is right around 11k. Whats the base heal of LoH M1 with 700ish wisdom?

As for the AAs in the shadow lines I haven't payed a whole lot of attention to them, and for what its worth it'll be a while before people have invested a large number of AAs into that tree seeing as how it just came out, so its not hardly worth arguing at this point.

[Shirodan]

Enrico@Permafrost wrote:

Shirodan wrote:

And I'll reiterate again, a 5k heal does not equal 5k damage. Heals are worth more than nukes when it comes to surviving a fight. If you're about to get your teeth kicked in by a ^^^ mob in a group, do you want the 10k nuke or the 5k heal?

I like LH, but in a mix-and-min-max scenario, I think I would prefer the 10k nuke, and I agree completely with those saying HT in its current form is better than LH.  I completely disagree with any notion that the classes should be balanced on such a shallow parallel.  There are always going to be things that one class does better than another.

Lay Hands really needed help.  The reduced recast helped.  There you go.  I don't know why LH needed a new penalty added since it was improved because it was too weak.

I don't understand why the same was applied to HT.  Maybe it needed help -- I don't know -- I'm not a SK.  SK's probably need more dps if they're getting blown out of the water by warriors (dps wise).  If it were reduced just because LH was adjusted, that would be lame, but I'm willing to give the game staff the benefit of the doubt here.  Common sense.

The same recast reduction was applied to HT to help bring it in line with the power of the devastation fist line, which actually does more damage and at the time had 1/3 the recast. We could do once every 15 minutes what a wizard does every 10 seconds.

Why a penalty was added to LoH when the changes went through is beyond me. LoH has never had a power cost (in EQ1 or EQ2) so I haven't a clue why they decided it needs one now. I also have no problem with them increasing the heal on LoH.

[Garnaf]

Shirodan wrote:

Heh, thanks for refering to me as 'the worst'. At master I with 700ish Int the base damage of HT is right around 11k. Whats the base heal of LoH M1 with 700ish wisdom?

As for the AAs in the shadow lines I haven't payed a whole lot of attention to them, and for what its worth it'll be a while before people have invested a large number of AAs into that tree seeing as how it just came out, so its not hardly worth arguing at this point.

Fun Fact: Wisdom doesn't modify base healing of any spells, so the same as Lay Hands M1 with 0 Wisdom.  (4219 to 5279, never boosted by stats unless they modify the base healing of spells [like our raid buff, however your raid buff does spell damage by the same %, so no comparison there)

[Shirodan]

Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:

Shirodan wrote:

Heh, thanks for refering to me as 'the worst'. At master I with 700ish Int the base damage of HT is right around 11k. Whats the base heal of LoH M1 with 700ish wisdom?

As for the AAs in the shadow lines I haven't payed a whole lot of attention to them, and for what its worth it'll be a while before people have invested a large number of AAs into that tree seeing as how it just came out, so its not hardly worth arguing at this point.

Fun Fact: Wisdom doesn't modify base healing of any spells, so the same as Lay Hands M1 with 0 Wisdom.  (4219 to 5279, never boosted by stats unless they modify the base healing of spells [like our raid buff, however your raid buff does spell damage by the same %, so no comparison there)

I think therein lies the problem then. Our HT line is modified by our Int, and your LoH can't be modified by stats. Sounds like wisdom needs to start affecting LoH and the problem should fix itself along with the removal of its power cost.

[Hikinami]

It's always been a very wimpy ability compared to what it SHOULD be putting out. It is not an oh crap ability anymore it is one free hit from a T8 mob! Things hit for 6 and 7k in heroic dungeons now and my lay on hands doesnt get that kind of mileage. It really needs some help, the recast reduction is nice but even now I rarely cast it. It should have always been a % base or a big heal and a few stoneskin procs. I have both a Pally and a SK and really I don't think either one of these skills is that amazing or even really class defining...

If the argument now is that HT is closer to Dev fist, Lay on Hands should be closer to mend.

[Hamervelder]

Shirodan wrote:

Dranikos@Butcherblock wrote:

Harm Touch is not simply 'a little' more damage than Lay Hands heals for.  It's nearly 2x the amount (maybe even more than that, it's been a while since I compared them)

I don't have a high level pally so I can't say for sure, but with 700+ Int my death touch hits for 8k and change.

8k won't even scratch a triple up, but a 4-5k heal can still save somebody's life. Death Touch is certainly better if you solo alot (and I do), but LoH is better when grouping/raiding. Its not unbalanced if they each shine in different situations.

It's been awhile since I betrayed my SK to pally, but I recall that in the Reaver line, you can add a lifetap to the Harm Touch line.   I can recall quite a few instances where the lifetap critted on DT and saved my toon's butt.  As far as I'm concerned, there is a huge disparity between DT and HT right now.  Do I want DT nerfed?  No way.  I'm happy for SK's.  The devs need to un-nerf HT.  Get rid of the power cost, and double the healing amount.

[Kigneer]

Araris@Venekor wrote:

Lately I find myself having only one healer for some of the hardest zones. That means I have to not only dish out alot of dps, but heal myself and the group quite a bit; it costs alot of power to do so.

Glad someone else has mentioned this tidbit. I ran (as I've cancelled my account now) with a Fury as a healer, although he's good at keeping an eye on me in the game, his heals could not keep me up as they're over time. I would have to fight and heal (especially if he gets a hit, as some beasties have an AoE). The result is I ate the power pool like crazy.

It's even sadder is the Pally rarely gets the credit for saving the group from a sudden and unexpected death, too. People always credit the dedicated healers, instead. Folks don't watch that emergency 700 to 800pt heals to top off their health bars, let alone that massive 1000+ spike in a tough mob eating through them.

Any MT with a Pally in it, if you see a massive heal, it's from the Pally and it's your last chance to make good.

6000 power is nothing for a Pally, especially one who destroys mobs with these underpowered AoEs (and despite putting 5 AAs in the Pally tree for each, which does little to increase they're effectiveness). It's gone as fast as a Guardian without a Dirge.

The LoH is a life saver IF you have enough power to cast it in time. If a Pally is at 1/4 power (the result in trying burn through a mob faster than your healer is out of power), 498 can mean a difference between surviving or dying, not just for you, your leathered or chained friend(s) when you wipe.

[Bruener]

The power cost on LoH is dumb and should be removed.

That being said comparing the damage of HT versus the heal of LoH they are out of balance.  HT can crit 20k...but compare that to how many hp a mob has.  On raid mobs you can't even see their hp bar move most of the time, on heroics is moves very little.  LoH though will heal an individual 50% plus, a huge saving difference.

I would love to see both of these changed to a % of hp.  LoH could be something like 100% of targets health and HT could be kept the same for heroic-solos, but than changed to something like 2% of mobs health if it is an epic.

[Loxus]

I see them as balanced currently.  Sure, I'd love to see LOH have 0 mana cost and heal for 10K plus, but the fact remains that harm touch, can ONLY be cast on a mob and ONLY heals the SK (if they chose to drop AA's into it), period.  Whereas LOH can be cast on anyone in group/raid healing them for 40 - 50% hps for scouts, healers and casters, and 25 - 30% on tanks.  We are paying for the versitility of the spell.  For not being a true healer class, that's pretty substancial if you think about it. 

Theroically speaking, we have a higher potentcial to save a group/raid wipe with LOH.  I said theroically, I betrayed from an SK and I know a well placed HT can save a group/raid also, however, I can slap a quick 5k heal on myself or the MT during a raid giving the healers a chance to catch up OR on a healer to keep them from dropping from an AOE/DOT.  With HT you don't have that luxury.

[Krieg]

Hikinami@Lucan DLere wrote:

If the argument now is that HT is closer to Dev fist, Lay on Hands should be closer to mend.

Good point.

[Zapat]

knowing that a power cost was input on LoH didn't really bother me at first, especially when i found out the resuse timer was shortened on it.  then i got around to playing and what was once my life saver to keep me in a fight longer, especially if im tapped outta juice and dont have any more power to ward or heal myself, is now just another power draining move (and some Paly's have severe power issues already), and totally not the lifesaving manuver it used to be.

then the other thing that pist me off, was when i heard that the SK's HT also got the reuse timer shortened... but no freakin' power cost was added!  [Removed for Content] DUDE!?! 

im starting to think that someone from SOE hates us Palys'.... why? who knows?

alright, peace 

[wellehad0]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:

Harm Touch line does not heal at all. That is an AA choice.

If you compare abilities and include AA choices you would need to factor in equal points spent anywhere in the Pally EoF tree and add whatever that ability gives to the comparison (since the trees are not direct equivalents).

Also, mob or mob/self only abilities vs freindly target choice is another factor when comparing the usefulness of the abilities (besides the heal vs dammage emergency factor above). Is LoH self only? I thought it could be cast on group(raid)/friend. They are both great in different ways imo.

Anyway, biased or not, I don't find the 2 abilities way out of line with each other (PvE).

i may be wrong but lay on hands cant be self only because last night i thought i had myself targeted and i hit lay on hands to save myself and my team mates health shot straight up...

as for a person who has played a lvl 80 SK and now a lvl 80 paly HT and LOH only big differnce is one is a weak mage nuke with a small heal while LOH is a extreme shoot you back to full health heal.. my LOH last night crited for 12.4k i went from 10% health to 100% instantly.. when fighting any heroic lvl 80 or above mobs HT only does like 1% or less of the mobs health wich is nothing to brag about. while the LOH heals you to full or close to full health wich every healer would love you for

[Niou]

Ifury@Nagafen wrote:

i may be wrong but lay on hands cant be self only because last night i thought i had myself targeted and i hit lay on hands to save myself and my team mates health shot straight up...

as for a person who has played a lvl 80 SK and now a lvl 80 paly HT and LOH only big differnce is one is a weak mage nuke with a small heal while LOH is a extreme shoot you back to full health heal.. my LOH last night crited for 12.4k i went from 10% health to 100% instantly.. when fighting any heroic lvl 80 or above mobs HT only does like 1% or less of the mobs health wich is nothing to brag about. while the LOH heals you to full or close to full health wich every healer would love you for

Did you just say that you're a lvl 80 paladin and just now figured out that Lay Hands can be cast on others...?

There should be some kind of skill requirement to post...