Station Cash?

[hisawat]

What I would buy if SOE sold with SC is extra character slots.  They should have done it with this release.

[M0rticia]

I received an email today saying I was a valuable customer and to thank me for my support over the years, they gave me a gift of SC dollars. As I stated before, I won't be spending these dollars and I wish I could send them back. I don't want them. I won't use them. Yes, I am upset that my favorite MMO of all time has come to this.

I do realize that MOST of the items right now are 'fluff' items. I don't consider the potions to be fluff. I consider them a way for a player to effectively 'buy' levels for their alts. These potions were given as veteran rewards for loyal SOE customers. Granted, I only used the tradeskill potions so I still have quite a few sitting around in my bank, but they were a GIFT for LOYAL CUSTOMERS. Now anyone can buy them. Gee, thanks for cheapening the 'reward' I get for paying 2 account subscriptions and for buying every expansion and adventure pack (for two accounts).

As others have stated, right now the majority of it does amount to 'fluff' items but I can guarantee that more items with stats, bonuses, etc. will be coming.

In the end though, what really bothers me (even more than the potions being for sale) is the sense of accomplishment is now gone in some sense. When I got a neat house item, finished an insane quest line and got the cool reward, got an uber fabled item on a raid, participated in a live event and got neat items, etc. I felt like I was 'special'. Yes, you can say it's cheesy for me to feel that way but I can't think of any other way to describe it. I felt like I accomplished something. I have something that not many other people have. My house is cooler looking because I got this or that neat house item. But now I feel like that part of Sony is dying in some small way. Now every character can have this or that item if they shell out the cash. You don't need to do anything...no questing, no live event participation, no raiding...just enter your credit card number. Entering a credit card number and buying items would never give me the same sense of accomplishment. Which is the main reason I will not be buying anything with these free dollars I got from Sony and I will not be buying items with my own money.

I don't have my mythical yet. I don't have a full set of fabled gear even though I raid 3 nights a week. I have the plat to 'buy' items if I really wanted to but I prefer to EARN things in-game. This is what *I* will continue to do. Maybe I am not the most uber brigand out there but I EARNED everything I have.

[Spyderbite]

Derrmerth2 wrote:

As things stand right now, some one threw a pebble in a pond and most of you are buckling down for a Tsunami.

I like this one best so far..

[bryldan]

Ealthina wrote:

In light of the current controversy regarding the "Station Cash" issue and the slippery slope it is sure to go sailing down I would like to call for the resignation of Smedly and the senoir development staff.  Time and time again they have proven to talk out of both sides of their mouths.  Thank you.

Lets all purchase a few shares of there stock and go to the stockholders meetings and ought him out!!!!!

[Wingrider01]

Hawgwar@Lucan DLere wrote:

SystemOn wrote:

I'll check this out, i got an email offering me $150 to spend on items.

Another SOE employee posting for false support of this idea...I have seen quite a few of these in these posts - not pointing any fingers....

Did you ever think of looking at the email account you have registered to your subscription - the are sending these emails out - if you did ntog et the email check in game

[Druzgotek]

I will buy lots of station cash as soon as I can use it to enable beastlord player class on my accounts.

I might buy more if I can straight out buy AA as well. Grinding AA is just too boring. Just keep it affordable because I cannot afford more than couple of k/month.

TIA

[Lornick]

The only thing that upsets me about this whole thing is how little you get for your station cash.  10 dollars for a couple hours of increased exp gain?  I can do a lot more for 10 dollars.  I can buy like a used PS2 or Xbox game for that much.  Even if it was 10 dollars and the potion actually gave me an entire AA point I would say that it was a waste of money.  At least in the past 10 dollars would get you an adventure pack.  Now if I spend 10 dollars I get a little bit of bonus exp and I still have to grind to earn it?  bleh.  Oh wait... I could spend money to look like a level 20 character!  Or to get another house pet to clutter up my home... as if I haven't already banked a dozen pets already.  At least give the players their money's worth!  Any outfits offered this way should at the very least look special or unique.  Not some goober n00b gear.  If you're going to charge a couple bucks for a stupid exp potion make it worth the players while.  For 10 dollars I would expect at least 500% gain for at least 5 hours.  If you people are going to be upset then at least be upset for a good reason.

[bleap]

Lornick wrote:

The only thing that upsets me about this whole thing is how little you get for your station cash.  10 dollars for a couple hours of increased exp gain?  I can do a lot more for 10 dollars.  I can buy like a used PS2 or Xbox game for that much.  Even if it was 10 dollars and the potion actually gave me an entire AA point I would say that it was a waste of money.  At least in the past 10 dollars would get you an adventure pack.  Now if I spend 10 dollars I get a little bit of bonus exp and I still have to grind to earn it?  bleh.  Oh wait... I could spend money to look like a level 20 character!  Or to get another house pet to clutter up my home... as if I haven't already banked a dozen pets already.  At least give the players their money's worth!  Any outfits offered this way should at the very least look special or unique.  Not some goober n00b gear.  If you're going to charge a couple bucks for a stupid exp potion make it worth the players while.  For 10 dollars I would expect at least 500% gain for at least 5 hours.  If you people are going to be upset then at least be upset for a good reason.

They put the lame stuff on the list for now to keep the initial outrage down to a dull roar. In a few months I am sure you wil be able to get anything from an uber weapon to a huge house and flying mounts. The possibilities are endless, all left up to the profit margin SOE has projected for the year..

[Aeralik]

Druzgotek wrote:

I will buy lots of station cash as soon as I can use it to enable beastlord player class on my accounts.

Nice try but the answer is still no!

[Lonestryd]

My response is that I will be quitting my station pass and moving to Vanguard exclusively. If this garbage moves to Vanguard in any fashion, it is likely this genre has just moved beyond me and I will go back to happily playing single-player RPGs.

This is not a threat, but a promise.

[Seidhkona]

madhatr wrote:

wonder if i can buy aa =P

Essentially yes, there's an AA potion of some sort.

While I generally think this is like SOE's Worst Idea Ever, I also think the people screaming that the sky is falling are overreacting. Some yahoos will spend insane amounts of money for stuff /shrug. They do so already on LON and on plat sales and powerleveling. My favorite is the guy that spent $600 to get the Classless Hats /sheesh

But for most of us, life will go on in Norrath as always. There are still thousands of quests in game, tons of stuff to kill, and plenty of fun to be had. My guild has plenty of excitement raiding T7 stuff still, and no doubt we'll eventually work up to T8. The new TSO instances are a blast.

I could honestly care less if some uber-goober buys uber leet stuffz with real life money. Chances are I don't group with him or his friends anyway.

[bleap]

Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:

madhatr wrote:

wonder if i can buy aa =P

Essentially yes, there's an AA potion of some sort.

While I generally think this is like SOE's Worst Idea Ever, I also think the people screaming that the sky is falling are overreacting. Some yahoos will spend insane amounts of money for stuff /shrug. They do so already on LON and on plat sales and powerleveling. My favorite is the guy that spent $600 to get the Classless Hats /sheesh

But for most of us, life will go on in Norrath as always. There are still thousands of quests in game, tons of stuff to kill, and plenty of fun to be had. My guild has plenty of excitement raiding T7 stuff still, and no doubt we'll eventually work up to T8. The new TSO instances are a blast.

I could honestly care less if some uber-goober buys uber leet stuffz with real life money. Chances are I don't group with him or his friends anyway.

For me it's not so much what they have done, but how they did it. Smed said a year ao that RMT would never come to live servers. He lied. There wasn't as much as a hint this was going to happen until today. It's a slap in the face to every player. If you don't mind bein lied to then that's your business. Frankly if this doesn't bother you than you more of a fanboy than you will ever realize.  

One warning....SOE has proven with their LoN game that they are very greedy. They aren't going to be satisfied with the bit of profit they can make from selling fluff items. It's just a matter of time before game altering items are offered. I am sure that most of you will find some way of justifying such actions...It won't matter to me as I will be long gone in 42 days...more or less...

[Bibs]

bleap wrote:

Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:

madhatr wrote:

wonder if i can buy aa =P

Essentially yes, there's an AA potion of some sort.

While I generally think this is like SOE's Worst Idea Ever, I also think the people screaming that the sky is falling are overreacting. Some yahoos will spend insane amounts of money for stuff /shrug. They do so already on LON and on plat sales and powerleveling. My favorite is the guy that spent $600 to get the Classless Hats /sheesh

But for most of us, life will go on in Norrath as always. There are still thousands of quests in game, tons of stuff to kill, and plenty of fun to be had. My guild has plenty of excitement raiding T7 stuff still, and no doubt we'll eventually work up to T8. The new TSO instances are a blast.

I could honestly care less if some uber-goober buys uber leet stuffz with real life money. Chances are I don't group with him or his friends anyway.

For me it's not so much what they have done, but how they did it. Smed said a year ao that RMT would never come to live servers. He lied. There wasn't as much as a hint this was going to happen until today. It's a slap in the face to every player. If you don't mind bein lied to then that's your business. Frankly if this doesn't bother you than you more of a fanboy than you will ever realize.  

One warning....SOE has proven with their LoN game that they are very greedy. They aren't going to be satisfied with the bit of profit they can make from selling fluff items. It's just a matter of time before game altering items are offered. I am sure that most of you will find some way of justifying such actions...It won't matter to me as I will be long gone in 42 days...more or less...

I dont hate SOE.  But it is clear we have all been lied to by Smedley; considering the timing of this new change coming RIGHT after the expansion many of us had just bought.  

I suppose they figure that they will make more money off the cash shop folks than they would have from the droves of folks who will leave because of this.  And I am guessing it will be a large exodus.

I am one of them...the leaving ones that is.  The "slippery slope" has become a little steeper.  Any probably even more slippery too.

LB

[Nefania2]

bleap wrote:

Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:

madhatr wrote:

wonder if i can buy aa =P

Essentially yes, there's an AA potion of some sort.

While I generally think this is like SOE's Worst Idea Ever, I also think the people screaming that the sky is falling are overreacting. Some yahoos will spend insane amounts of money for stuff /shrug. They do so already on LON and on plat sales and powerleveling. My favorite is the guy that spent $600 to get the Classless Hats /sheesh

But for most of us, life will go on in Norrath as always. There are still thousands of quests in game, tons of stuff to kill, and plenty of fun to be had. My guild has plenty of excitement raiding T7 stuff still, and no doubt we'll eventually work up to T8. The new TSO instances are a blast.

I could honestly care less if some uber-goober buys uber leet stuffz with real life money. Chances are I don't group with him or his friends anyway.

For me it's not so much what they have done, but how they did it. Smed said a year ao that RMT would never come to live servers. He lied. There wasn't as much as a hint this was going to happen until today. It's a slap in the face to every player. If you don't mind bein lied to then that's your business. Frankly if this doesn't bother you than you more of a fanboy than you will ever realize.  

One warning....SOE has proven with their LoN game that they are very greedy. They aren't going to be satisfied with the bit of profit they can make from selling fluff items. It's just a matter of time before game altering items are offered. I am sure that most of you will find some way of justifying such actions...It won't matter to me as I will be long gone in 42 days...more or less...

Exactly. This is just another example of SOE's misplaced priorities and absolute lack of customer service skills. They show time and again that they don't really care about what the players, their customers, want in a game. This is the main problem from me. If they wanted to put something like this in, they should have been up front about it, told us before putting it in, etc. That's my main problem.

And my main account ended this afternoon. I'm too annoyed with them right now to renew, so am forced to post on my 2nd account for the first time ever. I cancelled that this afternoon, too, mostly for the opportunity to express my displeasure with their handling of this. Again, I'm not freaking out over the SC thing itself, so much as I'm unhappy with SOE's approach. I don't want to see EQ2 turn into SWG's NGE fiasco. The game is too good, too much fun, to muck it up like this.

[Daysy]

So instead of using my subs to fix the web guild chat or implement the promised guild-only broker in guild halls, they lied and were using my money to find a way for me to give them more. I accept micropayments as an alternative to a subscription; having both is just greed and I'll no longer be contributing to it.

[Amise]

bleap wrote:

Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:

madhatr wrote:

wonder if i can buy aa =P

Essentially yes, there's an AA potion of some sort.

While I generally think this is like SOE's Worst Idea Ever, I also think the people screaming that the sky is falling are overreacting. Some yahoos will spend insane amounts of money for stuff /shrug. They do so already on LON and on plat sales and powerleveling. My favorite is the guy that spent $600 to get the Classless Hats /sheesh

But for most of us, life will go on in Norrath as always. There are still thousands of quests in game, tons of stuff to kill, and plenty of fun to be had. My guild has plenty of excitement raiding T7 stuff still, and no doubt we'll eventually work up to T8. The new TSO instances are a blast.

I could honestly care less if some uber-goober buys uber leet stuffz with real life money. Chances are I don't group with him or his friends anyway.

For me it's not so much what they have done, but how they did it. Smed said a year ao that RMT would never come to live servers. He lied. There wasn't as much as a hint this was going to happen until today. It's a slap in the face to every player. If you don't mind bein lied to then that's your business. Frankly if this doesn't bother you than you more of a fanboy than you will ever realize.  

Care to explain why you think this?

Why do you, and other people, think there's no middle ground here? You seem to see everything in terms of black and white. Either people are 100% against station cash, or they are slavish fanboys.

And please don't presume to speak for every player. I don't consider any of this a slap in the face, and nor do any of my friends. None of us have plans to buy anything using station cash, but equally so we don't consider this feature to be a problem.

I keep seeing all these ridiculous references to fanboys, but if a fanboy is someone that doesn't get all uptight over changes, I'm cool with being one. It must really suck being someone who feels such a personal affront over something as inconsequential as a game.

[Zarador]

Here's some food for thought.  I'm not sure how your "reward potions" work but mine keep on ticking when I log out.  In the past, the standard reply was always "we really have no way of reimbursing an expendable item in game".  Unless things have changed it will be real interesting when we get those unscheduled down times and people start screaming about loosing a $10 potion. Well heck, just look at all the screaming we get now for a scheduled downtime that people forgot about or never thought to check.

[Amise]

I'm not sure, one time fairly recently I logged out the crafter I was leveling - she had an XP potion on her, and was logged out for hours, but still had it on when I logged her back in. Couldn't swear to it 100% though.

But if they do tick down they're gonna need to either change the potions or change the reimbursement policy. Would be poor to make people pay for potions and then not allow reimbursement for server outages.

[Gisallo]

Vexy@Antonia Bayle wrote:

This is not fair at all. I will be leaving Everquest2 if this is serious, which it's looking like it is. The more money you have the better player you can be, with gear and extra's. That's just not fair.

Sorry its already like that.  IGE, IGXE get plats and loot rights.  Just get plat and buy loot rights and mythical or shards from guilds.  Pay guild leader's subsribtion for a year get Mythical.  All SOE is doing is HOPEFULLY udner cutting that a little by creating a system that will give some cool stuff.  Hopefully not as good as the other stuff (kinda like methadone vs. heroin) but good enough to get rid of the grey market that really unbalances the game.    And thats ONLY if they actually start putting genuinely useful items there.  As others have said the potions are okay BUT I would say they are FAR from game breaking.  I udnerstand the principle of the thing, but it terms of real effect?  Nada.  Does SOE also have a profit in mind for themselves..heck yeah.  But then again if other people are making bank on your game doing somethign you can not stop, is it better to just allow an elite and dishonest group to A) make money and B) benefit from those willing to sell or does it make sense to make a little money for the company and make it so that more people can have access and thus levelt he playing field?    I guess just call me a jaded realist. 

[Bibs]

Amise wrote:

bleap wrote:

Sigrdrifa@Lucan DLere wrote:

madhatr wrote:

wonder if i can buy aa =P

Essentially yes, there's an AA potion of some sort.

While I generally think this is like SOE's Worst Idea Ever, I also think the people screaming that the sky is falling are overreacting. Some yahoos will spend insane amounts of money for stuff /shrug. They do so already on LON and on plat sales and powerleveling. My favorite is the guy that spent $600 to get the Classless Hats /sheesh

But for most of us, life will go on in Norrath as always. There are still thousands of quests in game, tons of stuff to kill, and plenty of fun to be had. My guild has plenty of excitement raiding T7 stuff still, and no doubt we'll eventually work up to T8. The new TSO instances are a blast.

I could honestly care less if some uber-goober buys uber leet stuffz with real life money. Chances are I don't group with him or his friends anyway.

For me it's not so much what they have done, but how they did it. Smed said a year ao that RMT would never come to live servers. He lied. There wasn't as much as a hint this was going to happen until today. It's a slap in the face to every player. If you don't mind bein lied to then that's your business. Frankly if this doesn't bother you than you more of a fanboy than you will ever realize.  

Care to explain why you think this?

Why do you, and other people, think there's no middle ground here? You seem to see everything in terms of black and white. Either people are 100% against station cash, or they are slavish fanboys.

And please don't presume to speak for every player. I don't consider any of this a slap in the face, and nor do any of my friends. None of us have plans to buy anything using station cash, but equally so we don't consider this feature to be a problem.

I keep seeing all these ridiculous references to fanboys, but if a fanboy is someone that doesn't get all uptight over changes, I'm cool with being one. It must really suck being someone who feels such a personal affront over something as inconsequential as a game.

This reponse is simply trying to trivialize what are legitimate concerns.  You use terms like "any" and "none" like your "friends" are the only ones that matter (both of them.) 

But it still is true, this game was harmed, and I think, will bleed customers that made the game fun after all these years.

LB

[Gisallo]

Bibs wrote:

This reponse is simply trying to trivialize what are legitimate concerns.  You use terms like "any" and "none" like your "friends" are the only ones that matter (both of them.) 

But it still is true, this game was harmed, and I think, will bleed customers that made the game fun after all these years.

LB

Please not I am not trying to trivilize what you said but lets look at history.  Class balance, Mythical, LoN, RoK instances requireing "perfect" groups.  Too much solo content in RoK.  Uber raid zone loot.  The tiered end game raid zone with progressive loot.  Void shards and crit mit.  WoW.  All of these things were going to bleed customers to some people's mind.  Was going to destroy game balance or make the game too unfair.  While the game doesn't have as many "real" (read non-bot and plat farmers) than some, its subscribership has remained relatively steady.  Right now all the system is doing is letting you get stuff similar to what you can with LoN.  Few cared to rant and rave about that anymore.  To assume that it will eventually include getting a legendary item or something is way premature.  The sky is not yet falling.  Jeez

[Daysy]

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:

To assume that it will eventually include getting a legendary item or something is way premature. The sky is not yet falling. Jeez

It's premature, it's not yet falling.. perhaps, but would they implement something like this just to leave it as "limited" as it is now? Firstly, something like this shouldn't exist outside of the Exchange servers. Secondly, the underhanded way in which it was implemented without warning prior to the expansion, is just shameful. Thirdly, the future direction of the game, as indicated by the changes over the last year, points to a place which, for many of us, is just too far from the Norrath where we chose to make our online lives.

[Grong]

"Dear Valued Player,

Based on feedback we have received from various player surveys, we are thrilled to present Station Cash™. As part of our ongoing efforts to respond to our players’ requests as we continue to evolve the EverQuest® franchise."

Could you please show where and when these surveys were conducted?  13 people on Bazaar don't count.

If your going to introduce out and out RMT then just do it. We can't stop you.   But lying as to the reason just doesn't hold water and just makes you look bad.

[Raeyzej]

LoN used to be just worthless items that maybe looked cool. What if I want to look cool? I have to spend real cash added to my monthly fee to get the booster packs?

Now LoN has a good amount of utility items to be used in game, especially on a PvP server. And example would be that thing that gives you the ability to evacuate. It's not going to be fun when not only do I have to grind for void shards, but also spend real life cash in order to remain competitive in the PvP environment.

[Kigneer]

Kordran wrote:

This is a game. I will play it while I continue to have fun. When I stop having fun, I will stop playing it. Is that concept really so difficult for you to understand?

People are wailing and moaning about what might happen at some point in the future. So what? If you're having fun in the game now, then keep on playing it until you no longer are having fun. Then stop and cancel your account. If you're not having fun now, why are you still here?

People stay for other reasons than the game itself (friends, especially). Remember people aren't YOU. It'll take a little time to say goodbye, but once they do, the game will be even more ghostly.

The history of ingame stores is they will ALWAYS introduce game bonus items, as that's what sells (stores don't exist to just sell fluff, as it doesn't affect game play). First double XP or instant XP addons, then over a period of 6 months to a year, they release items that become essential to even survive the game. The last F2P I played, with the release of the expansion, you couldn't survive taking out the biggest named in the game without loading up on stacks of about 88 cent health potions with a full guild taking it on. What drops they had that was similiar was also on that killer island, so you needed those potions to survive to even get the drops.

Ingame store concept is so that a few can keep the game alive. Apparently SoE is banking on a few of it's long term players to bankroll the game. As apparently they'll accept anything they dish out without leaving, let alone complaining (just what devs prefer, even if they screw up the game, willing customers!).

[Grong]

Guessing March 14th I'll be able to purchase my first Void shard for $100 USD.

[Tylia]

Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:

"Dear Valued Player,

Based on feedback we have received from various player surveys, we are thrilled to present Station Cash™. As part of our ongoing efforts to respond to our players’ requests as we continue to evolve the EverQuest® franchise."

Could you please show where and when these surveys were conducted?  13 people on Bazaar don't count.

If your going to introduce out and out RMT then just do it. We can't stop you.   But lying as to the reason just doesn't hold water and just makes you look bad.

Actually, yes, there was/is an in-game survey.  (Accessed by typing /survey in chat)  I took the survey, but I do NOT remember any questions asking for my opinion on this type of RMT market.  I don't agree with it and think that it's bad business.  I pay a monthly subscription and do not feel that I should have to pay additional money to aquire anything related to the game outside of expansions and adventure packs.  True I can continue to play and totally ignore the SC market, but the point is it shouldn't be there to begin with.

[Curs3]

well, it was nice talking to some of ya.. im out.

[M0rticia]

Illyrian@Kithicor wrote:

Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:

"Dear Valued Player,

Based on feedback we have received from various player surveys, we are thrilled to present Station Cash™. As part of our ongoing efforts to respond to our players’ requests as we continue to evolve the EverQuest® franchise."

Could you please show where and when these surveys were conducted?  13 people on Bazaar don't count.

If your going to introduce out and out RMT then just do it. We can't stop you.   But lying as to the reason just doesn't hold water and just makes you look bad.

Actually, yes, there was/is an in-game survey.  (Accessed by typing /survey in chat)  I took the survey, but I do NOT remember any questions asking for my opinion on this type of RMT market.  I don't agree with it and think that it's bad business.  I pay a monthly subscription and do not feel that I should have to pay additional money to aquire anything related to the game outside of expansions and adventure packs.  True I can continue to play and totally ignore the SC market, but the point is it shouldn't be there to begin with.

Yes, there was a survey added in-game about 2 weeks ago. I took the survey. They never asked me if I wanted to buy items. I also find it hard to believe that they created this station cash add-on in the past two weeks since that survey was released. I'm sure it's something they had been talking about for a long time.

I got this same email telling me I was a 'valued customer' and they gave me free station cash because of my support for SOE for all these years, etc. I was also wondering who took these surveys they mentioned and when were the released.

[bryldan]

M0rticia wrote:

Illyrian@Kithicor wrote:

Kelthus@Nektulos wrote:

"Dear Valued Player,

Based on feedback we have received from various player surveys, we are thrilled to present Station Cash™. As part of our ongoing efforts to respond to our players’ requests as we continue to evolve the EverQuest® franchise."

Could you please show where and when these surveys were conducted?  13 people on Bazaar don't count.

If your going to introduce out and out RMT then just do it. We can't stop you.   But lying as to the reason just doesn't hold water and just makes you look bad.

Actually, yes, there was/is an in-game survey.  (Accessed by typing /survey in chat)  I took the survey, but I do NOT remember any questions asking for my opinion on this type of RMT market.  I don't agree with it and think that it's bad business.  I pay a monthly subscription and do not feel that I should have to pay additional money to aquire anything related to the game outside of expansions and adventure packs.  True I can continue to play and totally ignore the SC market, but the point is it shouldn't be there to begin with.

Yes, there was a survey added in-game about 2 weeks ago. I took the survey. They never asked me if I wanted to buy items. I also find it hard to believe that they created this station cash add-on in the past two weeks since that survey was released. I'm sure it's something they had been talking about for a long time.

I got this same email telling me I was a 'valued customer' and they gave me free station cash because of my support for SOE for all these years, etc. I was also wondering who took these surveys they mentioned and when were the released.

They were released just a couple of weeks ago and like you said no way to make plans and implement them in that time frame any other supposed feedback is a lie. BTW you can take the survey over again which i did and gave them HORRIBLE reviews not like it matters but hey they deserve some kind of slap in the face on my way out the door.