SOE please look at your idea of a "group" instance.

[Laoch69]

I am sure I will get flamed for this post, by the people who "know" how to play.

I have been playing eq2 since day 2.   I play a level 80 berserker (level 80 carpenter).

I play with the same group of people every weekend.  We are not a "newbie" group by any means. 

And we have played online games together all the way from Ultima, SWG, AO, AC1, AC2, FF11, AoC, DaOC etc.  So we kind of know how everyone plays together.  And we know what we can expect from each person.

Today, we tried a few TSO dungeons, and for the most part, we had our hats handed to us.

I would urge SoE to take a look at their idea of what a "regular group" is all about.

Not all of us are in fabled RoK gear.  Some of us only play a few hours a week, but are still level 80 and have legendary+ RoK gear...are we to be excluded from all of the group TSO content?

We stepped into Najena's hollow...did ok..died lots.  Stepped into the "weak" version of guk,,,and were owned.

Yeah, I know, my group must suck and we are all losers....I guess SoE only wants Fabled equipped "uber" folks to be able to play their game....great! that just means it is time for me and my friends to find something else to play.

Is it just me and my friends who are feeling left out?  Or has SoE seriously dropped the ball?

Thanks for listening

edit:typo

[Lethe5683]

Laoch69 wrote:

I am sure I will get flamed for this post, by the people who "know" how to play.

I have been playing eq2 since day 2.   I play a level 80 berserker (level 80 carpenter).

I play with the same group of people every weekend.  We are not a "newbie" group by any means. 

And we have played online games together all the way from Ultima, SWG, AO, AC1, AC2, FF11, AoC, DaOC ec.  So we kind of know how everyone plays together.  And we know what we can expect from each person.

Today, we tried a few TSO dungeons, and for the most part, we had our hats handed to us.

I would urge SoE to take a look at their idea of what a "regular group" is all about.

Not all of us are in fabled RoK gear.  Some of us only play a few hours a week, but are still level 80 and have legendary+ RoK gear...are we to be excluded from all of the group TSO content?

We stepped into Najena's hollow...did ok..died lots.  Stepped into the "weak" version of guk,,,and were owned.

Yeah, I know, my group must suck and we are all losers....I guess SoE only wants Fabled equipped "uber" folks to be able to play their game....great! that just means it is time for me and my friends to find something else to play.

Is it just me and my friends who are feeling left out?  Or has SoE seriously dropped the ball?

Thanks for listening

Although certain fights do have tricks the new zones are definatly way to hard.  I still think it's BS how the description of heroic mobs say "well balanced to a group of three or more".

[Beggon]

You should probably list the classes that are in these groups of yours. If you are a berserker being solo healed that could be a problem depending on the healer class.

[JenarieII]

Start out with the easier instances and work up to the higher ones and you'll be fine.  I'd highly recommend Everfrost.

Reposting the list which may help.  Stick to the greens until you get some of the gear and then move to the harder ones.

LocationsEverfrostMiragul’s Phylactery: Scion of Ice Miragul’s Phylactery: The Anathema Miragul’s Phylactery: The Crucible LavastormThe Deep Forge Najena’s Hollow CommonlandsCavern of the Afflicted Befallen: Halls of the Forsaken Necrotic Asylum Loping PlainsEvernight Abbey Mistmyr Manor Ravenscale Repository Fens of NathsarVeksar Nu’Roga Kor’sha Moors of YkeshaObelisk of Ahkzul Anchor of Bazzul Upper Guk Lower Guk Palace of Ferzhul Guk Stronghold DifficultyEasy Easy to Moderate ModerateModerate to Advanced Advanced

[Kendricke]

Laoch69 wrote:

We stepped into Najena's hollow...did ok..died lots.  Stepped into the "weak" version of guk,,,and were owned.

Neither of these zones are considered to be entry level Shadow Odyssey dungeons.  The easiest dungeons are Scion of Ice (Everfrost), Obelisk of Ahkzul (Moors of Ykesha), Deep Forge (Lavastorm), and Evernight Abbey (Loping Plains).  Even then, some dungeons are better suited to one type of group over others. 

Laoch69 wrote:

I guess SoE only wants Fabled equipped "uber" folks to be able to play their game

Instead of assuming the dungeons are too hard, try asking around for help on how you and your group can find a dungeon which fits better to your party makeup and playstyle.  I've run through some of the dungeons with complete pick-up groups of strangers where no one had mythicals or raid gear. 

[AgingGamer]

Something seems wrong in the balancing when the "easiest" dungeon in the new expansion (Guk: Halls of the Fallen) has monsters at the entrance that can totally wipe a group of five or six level 79-80 seasoned players in the time it takes to say "incoming".

I honestly felt I was wearing no armour at all.  Triple up arrow level 81/82 non-boss mobs should not be that hard.  I can see needing a pair of healers for some special case uber boss or special elite dungeon, but for the lowest level and supposedly "easiest" dungeon in the new expansion... it doesn't seem right to me.

I swear, it is as if the EQ2 developers played Age of Conan, took the absolute worst features of the high level dungeons there, and said "lets build a whole expansion like that!"  

P.S.: just saw the posts by Kendricke and JenarieII: thank you for the suggestions!  That is a different set of "easiest" dungeons than I've seen other folks suggest, so we'll have to check those out.  

[steelbadger]

Laoch69 wrote:

We stepped into Najena's hollow...did ok..died lots.  Stepped into the "weak" version of guk,,,and were owned.

Yes?  So?  You think you should be able to amble into any group zone without any knowledge of the zone or mobs and clear it without wipes?

I get owned on occasion too.  The difference between you and I is apparently not our success (I died a lot on my first run through Hollow Tower and have not tried a Guk zone yet) but what we'd constitute as "Too Easy" and "Too Hard".

In my book I should die a lot on my first run through an instance.  If I can clear an instance with few or no wipes first time through (ie a tank who doesn't know where they're going) then I cringe at the thought of how boring the instance will be once I have learned it.

Learn that dying isn't the end of the world, dying doesn't mean that it's too hard.  It means it's not too easy.

I will take challenging instances over easy ones any day of the week.

[Giral]

here is an alternate list : )

This was copied from the beta Forums and I thought people would like to know about the new zones. I do NOT take credit for this

The Moors of Ykesha (Level 80+)Access: Airship in Sinking SandsDruids-Ring: yesMage-Spire: yes

Developer Rating Easy Easy to Moderate Moderate Moderate to Hard Hard

The Ruins of GukAccess: Moors of Ykesha, take the ballon from Firmroot to the Entrance of GukGroupinstances:

• Halls of the Fallen (Level 80+)
• The Lower Corridors (Level 80+)
• Ykesha's Outer Stronghold (Level 80+)

Raidinstances:

• Ykesha's Inner Stronghold

Miragul's PhylacteryAccess: Everfrost, within the new GU47 tunnelGroupinstances:

• Scion of Ice (Level 50 - 80)
• The Anathema (Level 50 - 80)
• The Crucible (Level 50 - 80)

NajenaAccess: Lavastorm, head left after the first tunnelGroupinstances:

• The Deep Forge (Level 50 - 80)
• Najena's Hollow (Level 50 - 80)

MistmooreAccess: Loping Planes, cemeteryGroupinstances:

• Evernight Abbey (Level 70 - 80)
• Mistmyr Manor (Level 70 - 80)
• Ravenscale Repository (Level 70 - 80)

Developer Rating Easy Easy to Moderate Moderate Moderate to Hard Hard

Raidinstances:

• Zarrakon's Abyssal Chamber

The Sebilisian EmpireAccess: All over the Fens of NathsarGroupinstances:

• Veksar (Level 80+) Access: within the Lake of ill Omen
• Nu'Roga (Level 80+) Access: head right within the mines of Nurga
• Kor'Sha (Level 80+) Access: flightpoint from Omens Call to the zone entrance

BefallenAccess: Commonlands, near the Hidden Valley flightpointGroupinstances:

• Cavern of the Afflicted (Level 50 - 80)
• Halls of the Forsaken (Level 50 - 80)
• Necrotic Asylum (Level 50 - 80)

Raidinstances:

• Tomb of the Mad Crusader

Developer Rating Easy Easy to Moderate Moderate Moderate to Hard Hard

The Void (Level 80+)Access: All over the Moors of Ykesha, just follow the sky stormsGroupinstances:

• Obelisk of Ahkzul
• Anchor of Bazzul
• The Palace of Ferzhul

Raidinstances:

• Palace of the Ancient One

Crafter Zones

• The Clockwork Workshop
• The Shipyard Cove
• Firemyst Gully: Supply Stocking

Developer Rating Easy Easy to Moderate Moderate Moderate to Hard Hard

 

[Laoch69]

I want to say thanks everyone, for their input.

Beggon, the group that I play with, has the following classes

Berserker 80

Paladin 79

Ranger 79

Wizard 80

Inquisitor 80

Fury 80

---

JenarieII, thanks for the feedback, we shall try everfrost next time

---

Kendricke, I was under the impression that Guk, (halls of fallen) was an easier version of the other guk instances.  I guess you must have better luck with your pick up groups, then I have with my regular group.  It seems to me though, that these instances are geared towards a small minority of players.   Does SoE assume that every group that goes into these instances, is a Fabled equipped group?

---

Steelbadger.   You comment, is what I have come to expect from these boards...I was just waiting for you to say shut the hell up newb.  I guess you are saving that for the next post ?

I don't have a probem with dieing, but when you have a bit of a "walkthrough" printed out beside you, and you still get owned over and over, there may be a problem with SoE's "Vision" of what a group instance is about?

But I guess I should just suck it up and keep dieing?

Perhaps before you give advice, you should try guk out? Before you consider yourself an "expert".

---

And thank you very much Giralus and JenarieII for the lists of the instances.  I have it printed out already from eq2Wiki, but I do appreciate the input, thank-you

[bryldan]

Another thread about this.......

[Oh]

bryldan wrote:

Another thread about this.......

Thanks, I was about to say the same thing, aren't 2+ threads on this very subject enough? That's just in this forum, let alone other forums. Anyways as previous posters stated, try out the easier instances first. These instances are actually something NEW, as in they progress meaning you need progressivly better and better gear. (FYI: There are 2 tiers of legendary gear you can buy from merchants that should be a good clue). These instances are actually something other then tank and spank, there are actually scripts associated with them. Granted some of the scripts are buggy, it happens, a lot of them work just fine.

[Oh]

Laoch69 wrote:

Kendricke, I was under the impression that Guk, (halls of fallen) was an easier version of the other guk instances.  I guess you must have better luck with your pick up groups, then I have with my regular group.  It seems to me though, that these instances are geared towards a small minority of players.   Does SoE assume that every group that goes into these instances, is a Fabled equipped group?

Please see my other post on gear requirements, anyways I wanted to say that halls of the fallen IS the easier of the guk instances BUT GUK IS NOT THE EASIST INSTANCES TO BEGIN WITH! Start off with something simplier and then work your way up. As it has been said rome wasn't built in a day, why do you expect to take on the hardest stuff day one.

[bryldan]

Ohiv wrote:

Laoch69 wrote:

Kendricke, I was under the impression that Guk, (halls of fallen) was an easier version of the other guk instances.  I guess you must have better luck with your pick up groups, then I have with my regular group.  It seems to me though, that these instances are geared towards a small minority of players.   Does SoE assume that every group that goes into these instances, is a Fabled equipped group?

Please see my other post on gear requirements, anyways I wanted to say that halls of the fallen IS the easier of the guk instances BUT GUK IS NOT THE EASIST INSTANCES TO BEGIN WITH! Start off with something simplier and then work your way up. As it has been said rome wasn't built in a day, why do you expect to take on the hardest stuff day one.

I mean after a month we should have EVERY single one of these instances on farm status!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kendricke]

AgingGamer wrote:

Something seems wrong in the balancing when the "easiest" dungeon in the new expansion (Guk: Halls of the Fallen) has monsters at the entrance that can totally wipe a group of five or six level 79-80 seasoned players in the time it takes to say "incoming".

That is not the easiest dungeon in the new expansion.  It's actually one of the hardest dungeons in the expansion.  Before you step foot in ANY of the Guk dungeons, try using the list that Giarlus copied above.  It's a good indicator. 

Seriously, we're running alts, new players, and complete pickup groups through the easiest dungeons.  I've completely cleared Scion of Ice while solo healing a pick-up group that couldn't put 8,000 DPS together.  The first time I cleared Caverns of the Afflicted was with a complete pick-up group.  I've cleared Deep Forge with a group of 3 fighters and 2 healers. 

Get out of Guk and go hit dungeons that your group is able to handle.  Gear up a bit before moving on to the harder dungeons.  Honestly, this is like Kunark launching and new groups claiming that Maiden's Chamber and Chelsith were "too hard" before they'd ever touched Crypt of Agony or Vaults of Eternal Sleep.

[Kittiilitter]

This is what really bothers me about EQ2(and some other Onlines games in general)

Classes should be diverse enough as to where you do not have to have the "Holy Trinity" to complete a instance.

In EQ1 and even WoW several classes had forms of crowd control and healing so you could be diverse in class choices.

Now add the fact that TSO makes it so the "casual Harcore" player loses out.

Another bad idea that caused me and many people I know to quit EQ2 was the loot.

If I kill a normal named I should have a very High chance at a great item someone in my group can use. Yes I know Bosses have a chance at dropping Ornate chests but it must be raid type Bosses because at 80 I have yet to have anything good drop from a named a normal group can do.(Usually any Masters that drop noone in my groups can use,why is that?) I thought you used to get items based on the classes in your group but this seems to be the opposite.

EQ1 had mobs that dropped normal nice loot.

I enjoyed getting to 70.Quests gave decent experience. Once I hit 70 it went to a crawl.

For example, a level 76 Quest that involves killing 12 mobs(1 level higher(77),you had to kill more since it didnt drop every time. Then finishing a quest while killing those mobs.I went to turn it in and got a total of 2% experience from start to finish.Add also that I was earning double experience from vitality.

This was the last straw for me,I dont recall any online game I have played that was as skimpy on experience the last 10 levels of max level.

I have done a lot of instances and experience is the same,well it is obviously a exp cap 71+.

Now,you get to 80 and this "Raid Time"..well hold on there partner,you better have a Healer or Tank or you will find yourself raidless.

How many nice items actually drop from a full clearing of a high instance? Exactly,F the status items btw,I am tired of clearing a instance in a group only to have those drop.

[Kendricke]

You dont' require a "holy trinity" to complete the instances.  That said, you probably do want to have at least one tank and one healer - but you don't require a particular tank (I've run instances with every type of fighter so far) or any particular healer (I've been in groups as a healer, a tank, or as a damage dealer.  I've been on runs as a solo healer and through runs that had any combination of healers.  I've used a paladin as a backup healer...and I've been a backup healer as a monk on another run).  You don't require crowd control for all instances, and even in some of the instances where other players say you need controllers...you often don't NEED controllers. 

There are 18 different dungeons.  Within them are a variety of difficulties and playstyles.  Whatever group you can scrounge up together, I can assure you that there's a dungeon for you.

[Noaani]

The biggest two problems people have are a lack of understanding of the idea behind progression (and acceptance of their position within progression), and miss information.

Having a walkthrough of an encounter is probably the worst thing you could do in this game. Having an idea of what a mob does, then looking at your groups strengths and weaknesses, you should put together your own stratagy for how to deal with whatever a mob is able to do.

The only group makup that is unable to clear the easier zones in TSO is one that is missing someone that is able to formulate a stratagy.

[Kordran]

Laoch69 wrote:

Beggon, the group that I play with, has the following classes

Berserker 80Paladin 79Ranger 79Wizard 80Inquisitor 80Fury 80

One big problem is your group composition. For the easy/moderate instances, you really want a tank, healer, enchanter, bard, and two first tier dps classes. For harder instances, you can swap out one of the dps classes for another healer (and make sure you do not duplicate; you don't want two druids in a group, for example). In fact, you generally don't want to duplicate classes at all.

As important as a solid tank and a good healer is, equally important is that you have high DPS classes. In many of those fights, what will wipe the group is the inability to kill fast enough. Dead mobs aren't doing damage to your tank and causing your healer to mana dump on him to keep him alive.

In your group, if the zerk is tanking, the paladin is dead weight; they're a defensive tank class and their damage output is low. If the paladin is tanking, it would serve you better to have a higher melee dps class there, such as an assassin or a brigand. The two healer classes you have are fine for harder content, but are generally unnecessary for the easier stuff where more dps should be prioritized over healing. You have poor crowd control, and you have no power regen. Those are two signficant problems.

As much as gear is important, so is proper group composition. Now, you can get away with creating "non-standard" groups if you have the gear to cover it, but it sounds like you do not. I'm sure people will point out that you don't have to have a balanced group like this. And that's true, but having a balanced group makes things signficiantly easier, particularly when you're still learning the content.

[Beggon]

That's gonna be a rough group as you try to move to harder dungeons. The 2 healers are the worst 2 of the 6 healing classes. Hopefully the paladin can take over tanking when he is lvl 80, otherwise it may be hard to keep the zerker up in the harder instances. There is also a complete lack of utility. A bard, enchanter, or rogue would help out a lot.

[Amphibia]

So basically, you need 2 utility classes and 2 top DPS classes and also the "best" healer classes to do these zones? Wow....

Please tell me where monks, bruisers and other no-quite-so-high DPS classes fit into all of this?

[wolfIII]

Beggon wrote:

That's gonna be a rough group as you try to move to harder dungeons. The 2 healers are the worst 2 of the 6 healing classes. Hopefully the paladin can take over tanking when he is lvl 80, otherwise it may be hard to keep the zerker up in the harder instances. There is also a complete lack of utility. A bard, enchanter, or rogue would help out a lot.

unfortunatly content is very limited for groups of close friends and family that want to go out and have fun in this game.  It's gotten where you all have to reroll so you have the correct class, run ACT, bring in pick up's to fill in and for all intensive purposes play a different game than you started 4 years ago.  A lot of folks love the changes but some don't.  i guess SOE can't please everybody.

[Noaani]

Kordran wrote:

One big problem is your group composition. For the easy/moderate instances, you really want a tank, healer, enchanter, bard, and two first tier dps classes. For harder instances, you can swap out one of the dps classes for another healer (and make sure you do not duplicate; you don't want two druids in a group, for example). In fact, you generally don't want to duplicate classes at all.

This is massive miss information right here. The easiest half of the TSO instances can all be done in RoK heroic instance gear with no bard or enchanter. If you have a solid healer in terms of player skill, a reasonably well geared tank (for a non raid tank), and a group that can put out 12 - 14k DPS, your fine for enough instances to last you a few days.

On top of that, there is absolutly no reason at all to ever want or need both a bard and an enchanter in one group for any heroic content. You are not at a disadvantage by having both, but you are not gaining an advantage either.

Its people who insist on thing like this that make others think TSO instances are harder than they really are.

[Noaani]

Amphibia wrote:

So basically, you need 2 utility classes and 2 top DPS classes and also the "best" healer classes to do these zones? Wow....

Please tell me where monks, bruisers and other no-quite-so-high DPS classes fit into all of this?

As I posted above, massive miss information.

The above group may be good if you plan on running instances in 20 minutes, but if you have an extra 10 minutes you can run most instances with a much less "optimal" group. You could run any of the EF or LS zones with 5 brawlers and a shaman without any issue, probably even with 6 brawlers if they all knew how to play.

[Kendricke]

Noaani wrote:

Kordran wrote:

One big problem is your group composition. For the easy/moderate instances, you really want a tank, healer, enchanter, bard, and two first tier dps classes. For harder instances, you can swap out one of the dps classes for another healer (and make sure you do not duplicate; you don't want two druids in a group, for example). In fact, you generally don't want to duplicate classes at all.

This is massive miss information right here. The easiest half of the TSO instances can all be done in RoK heroic instance gear with no bard or enchanter. If you have a solid healer in terms of player skill, a reasonably well geared tank (for a non raid tank), and a group that can put out 12 - 14k DPS, your fine for enough instances to last you a few days.

On top of that, there is absolutly no reason at all to ever want or need both a bard and an enchanter in one group for any heroic content. You are not at a disadvantage by having both, but you are not gaining an advantage either.

Its people who insist on thing like this that make others think TSO instances are harder than they really are.

Agreed.

Look, I've earned over 60 shards on my characters so far, and I can tell you that the above listed "requirement" isn't required at all.  Less than 1/3 of the groups I've run with have included a bard or enchanter.  At least 1/3 of the groups I've run were with (what I'd consider) unconventional groups.  Only about 1/4 of the groups I've run with so far have been what I'd refer to as "ideal".

Seriously, remember when players would claim that an enchanter was "required" for Maiden's Chamber?  Remember when players would claim you couldn't possibly have a brawler tank Crypt of Agony?  Remember when players told us that Runnyeye 2 was night on impossible for pickup groups?

I've run five person groups that consisted of 3 fighters and 2 healers.  I've solo healed groups which didn't have crowd control.  I've run Caverns of the Afflicted without any AE classes (no mythicals, either).  Sure, I've been in wretched groups too...but you don't catch lunkers every time you cast a lure, either. 

Fact is that your group may not be "ideal", but it's a damned sight better than at least half of the groups I've been in.  Start working up your gear in dungeons like Obelisk of Ahkzul, Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, and Evernight Abbey.  You'll pick up void shards along the way, too.  Before you know it, you'll find yourself blowing through those dungeons and you can then move on to Befallen, Nuroga, Veksar, Anaethma, Anchor, etc.  Eventually, you'll progress back up to Guk and Palace.  Along the way, you'll have fun figuring out how to accomplish the missions with a group that other players said wouldn't be up to snuff.  You'll beam all the brighter because of that.

[Kordran]

What I wrote at the end of the post I made:

I'm sure people will point out that you don't have to have a balanced group like this. And that's true, but having a balanced group makes things signficiantly easier, particularly when you're still learning the content.

Note the part where I say that groups like what I discussed aren't required, you don't have to do it, but it makes things easier. The key word in that sentence: easier. The OP was having problems wiping on some of the least difficult instances in TSO. Making things easier would generally be a good idea, don't you agree?

The advice I was giving the OP in terms of group build was the way to do it so that he could spend the least amount of time in the instances with the smallest repair bills. And in that context, I think my advice stands on its own merits.

Edit: Kendricke, while some people may "beam all the brighter" for succeeding with unconventional groups, I'd bet the vast majority just end up wanting to put their fist through the monitor. I don't know about you, but I have no patience for screwing around for hours inside these things; I have better things to do than explore every weird group permutation out there so I can bask in my personal uberness and marvel at my self-control in not wanting to murder my groupmates. I just want to run through the thing, get my shards and get on with life (or at least another instance, and still be able to maintain a reasonable sleeping schedule). A solid, "conventional" group build makes that happen with the fewest headaches and at the greatest speed. If that's not your cup of tea, more power to you.

[AgingGamer]

Kendricke wrote:

Fact is that your group may not be "ideal", but it's a damned sight better than at least half of the groups I've been in.  Start working up your gear in dungeons like Obelisk of Ahkzul, Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, and Evernight Abbey.  You'll pick up void shards along the way, too.  Before you know it, you'll find yourself blowing through those dungeons and you can then move on to Befallen, Nuroga, Veksar, Anaethma, Anchor, etc.  Eventually, you'll progress back up to Guk and Palace.  Along the way, you'll have fun figuring out how to accomplish the missions with a group that other players said wouldn't be up to snuff.  You'll beam all the brighter because of that.

Nicely said, Kendricke.  I appreciate that there are "optimal" group builds, and some groups are obviously exactly the opposite of optimal.  But I would say it is a sad state of affairs when a group with two healers, two decent melee/tanks, a rogue-class, and a wizard is perceived as a big problem.   I remember back in the original EQ seeing folks being rejected from groups all the time due to their class being "sub-optimal": not everyone has the time or frankly wants to spend their lives min/maxing their way into the record books.

I'm looking forward to checking out some of the dungeons on the "entry ramp" in the new expansion.  I particularly like the perception that folks can work their way up through the content- that's fine and quite reasonable.  I just hate to imagine that most or even a significant percentage of the game is out of bounds unless you are in the perfect group with the perfect 40 hours a week of play time.

P.S.: I'm the "dead weight" Paladin in Laoch's group- 10 years of playing mostly healing classes, and the first real melee class I play is "dead weight" just as I get him to level 80.  Whee!  

[Kordran]

AgingGamer wrote:

P.S.: I'm the "dead weight" Paladin in Laoch's group- 10 years of playing mostly healing classes, and the first real melee class I play is "dead weight" just as I get him to level 80.  Whee!  

A Paladin can be a solid tank, and if you were the tank for the group, all well and good. But there is no need for an off-tank in heroic instances, and unless you're exclusively fighting undead, your damage output is low even compared to other fighters. That's the trade-off for being able to heal yourself and having Amends.

Or to put it another way, in your group, you should be the tank. The zerk should be in offensive stance and wearing dps gear. If that's how you're playing, then you're not dead weight. Congratulations on hitting 80.

[Kendricke]

Kordran wrote:

The OP was having problems wiping on some of the least difficult instances in TSO.

He mentioned wiping in Guk, which is NOT one of the least difficult instances in The Shadow Odyssey.  Till he's wiping in Obelisk of Akhzul, Scion of Ice, and Deep Forge, he's not wiping in one of the least difficult instances in The Shadow Odyssey. 

Kordran wrote:

 I don't know about you, but I have no patience for screwing around for hours inside these things; I have better things to do than explore every weird group permutation out there so I can bask in my personal uberness and marvel at my self-control in not wanting to murder my groupmates.

This extreme example you've created here bears little resemblance to anything I've said at any point.  I'm not exactly known for my patience, and I certainly don't like "screwing around for hours".  I don't try to explore weird group permutations, nor do I generally feel a need to bask in my personal uberness (not in-game at least). 

That said, because I hate waiting around for the just-so, perfect group combination - I'm a come as you are, take him as you can sort of group player.  If that means taking the first five of my groupmates to log on in the morning through an instance run, then I'll roll those dice and hope it comes up with a dirge or backup healer if I'm lucky enough.  If not, I do the best with what I have right away rather than waiting around for a better combination later on.  Sometimes, that means running with three healers in a group.  Sometimes, it means moving with two fighters.  It sometimes means running with 3 guildmates and 3 pick-up groupmates.  Sometimes I get to group with guildmates I've known for years and other times I end up grouping with newer guildmates who aren't so game-savvy quite yet. 

I don't do this to prove points.  I do this to earn shards.  I do this to group with guildmates.  I do this because I'd rather spend my online time actually playing instead of waiting around to play.  Basking in personal uberness?  I save that for a good response to a bad forum post. 

...

P.S. - "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." - George S. Patton

[Norrsken]

Amphibia wrote:

So basically, you need 2 utility classes and 2 top DPS classes and also the "best" healer classes to do these zones? Wow....

Please tell me where monks, bruisers and other no-quite-so-high DPS classes fit into all of this?

No, that is completely wrong.

Your two healers should be perfectly capable of healing the harders tuff. they just have to have a few aas put into healing. And the fury cant nuke and then heal when its needed. they need to do it the other way around. I've healed with my inqy in various TSO instances and it works just perfectly.

I have also done a guk instance with 1 inqy, 2 sks, 1 coercer, 1 troub and 1 zerker.  PUG.Its just bullcrap that you *have* to have a specific group setup to do these instances. A good tank and a good healer (note, classes doesnt really mean much here, its the players that count) makes a world of difference.

[steelbadger]

AgingGamer wrote:

Kendricke wrote:

Fact is that your group may not be "ideal", but it's a damned sight better than at least half of the groups I've been in.  Start working up your gear in dungeons like Obelisk of Ahkzul, Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, and Evernight Abbey.  You'll pick up void shards along the way, too.  Before you know it, you'll find yourself blowing through those dungeons and you can then move on to Befallen, Nuroga, Veksar, Anaethma, Anchor, etc.  Eventually, you'll progress back up to Guk and Palace.  Along the way, you'll have fun figuring out how to accomplish the missions with a group that other players said wouldn't be up to snuff.  You'll beam all the brighter because of that.

Nicely said, Kendricke.  I appreciate that there are "optimal" group builds, and some groups are obviously exactly the opposite of optimal.  But I would say it is a sad state of affairs when a group with two healers, two decent melee/tanks, a rogue-class, and a wizard is perceived as a big problem.   I remember back in the original EQ seeing folks being rejected from groups all the time due to their class being "sub-optimal": not everyone has the time or frankly wants to spend their lives min/maxing their way into the record books.

I'm looking forward to checking out some of the dungeons on the "entry ramp" in the new expansion.  I particularly like the perception that folks can work their way up through the content- that's fine and quite reasonable.  I just hate to imagine that most or even a significant percentage of the game is out of bounds unless you are in the perfect group with the perfect 40 hours a week of play time.

P.S.: I'm the "dead weight" Paladin in Laoch's group- 10 years of playing mostly healing classes, and the first real melee class I play is "dead weight" just as I get him to level 80.  Whee!  

In the group you're in might recommend having a look at a heal spec, it's a bit of a sticky issue as you would be quite useful for AoE DPS in Befallen, for example, but I do know that a heal-specced pally can really contribute on the heal parse.  Not to the same extent as a 'real' healer class but still a meaningful contribution.

I wouldn't consider your group to be a massive problem, peopleare just looking at it and recoiling in horror at the thought of two tank classes, but there's a lot than can be done there.  I'd consider your group to be a pretty nice setup for the AoE heavy zones all around TSO.  I might suggest (assuming comparable gear) that the pally tanks with amends on a fully offensive zerker for zones like Cavern of the Afflicted, just cos the zerker can really have fun in that kind of situation.  Maybe the group is 'sub-optimal' but in every 100 groups you will have 99 that are 'sub-optimal'.

Laoch69 wrote:

Steelbadger.   You comment, is what I have come to expect from these boards...I was just waiting for you to say shut the hell up newb.  I guess you are saving that for the next post ?

I don't have a probem with dieing, but when you have a bit of a "walkthrough" printed out beside you, and you still get owned over and over, there may be a problem with SoE's "Vision" of what a group instance is about?

But I guess I should just suck it up and keep dieing?

Perhaps before you give advice, you should try guk out? Before you consider yourself an "expert".

I'm saving it up for later, when I need a really scolding put-down.

See, that's the only difference...  I don't mind dying over and over with a walkthrough in my now dismembered hand, remember how hard VoES was back in the day?  Remember how Nest of the Great Egg was hard and Chamberlin required a good group setup?  This period is always present when groups are getting splatted left-right and center because they do not know the encounter.  It will pass and we will move on to the calm 6 month period of boring farm runs for 60% of instances.  (Having a walkthrough is not the same as knowing an encounter).

I told you what I do.  I die, acknowledge it, try to learn from it and then try (and possibly die) again.

I never called myself an "expert" I said "I get owned on occasion too.  The difference between you and I is apparently not our success..."  now, maybe my English isn't up to scratch but it seems to me that I was saying I was in a similar situation to you.  I did not come charging in saying "Well my groups always clear every zone with no wipes avar so shut up noob" so I don't really understand why I warrent the "Yes but you're an elitist ubermonger" standard response.  I haven't tried Guk for 2 reasons; 1)  There's a lot of stuff and I don't spend that much time doing them and 2)  I'm leaving the harder zones for later.

I welcome death.  It means I don't know everything.  It means there is still more to learn.  It means that the game is still worth playing.  Why play a game where I can beat everything with ease?  Endlessly winning isn't fun, winning after putting in the effort is what is fun.