Geared characters for TSO

[bks6721]

Melli wrote:

bks6721 wrote:

 its a HEROIC dungeon ffs.. its not a raid position interview.    Why should my RAIDING ability be any consideration when it comes to running a group zone?  

MYTHICAL and BASIC minimum standard....   are we still talking about HEROIC zones?   Is a myth really required?  It sure shouldn't be.

Classifying all of the instances as heroic content without considering their tier isn't adequate though.  That's like comparing CoA to Maiden's.   There were a lot of people that had to gear up in RoK prior to being able to do Maiden's because it was a more difficult heroic dungeons.  Most T7 raiders were doing Maiden's right away.

This early in the expansion, mostly raiders are clearing the top tier instances and that's to be expected.  They have better gear and are use to dealing with scripted encounters.  Expecting to get a tier 3 group while still wearing pieces of MC gear is unrealistic unless you are really, really good at your class and everyone knows it.

Progression is about gearing up on the easier content in order to do the harder content.  You can't simply say "It's heroic so I should be able to do it" when it is tiered, progressive content.  Learn which instances are the easier ones and look for groups doing those.

it has been suggested that I start RoK teir 1 - 3 raiding to do TSO heroics.   When has raiding ever been a stepping stone to doing the same teir heroic dungeons.  It hasn't.   My players think it is.  It isn't.   I can do the zones (lower TSO heroics) in my current gear.   Too many people think I'm undergeared for it.  I'm not.   Being fully geared should be a BONUS not a minimum requirement.   You don't need VP gear for PR do you?  Then I shouldn't need PR gear for TSO heroics.

These heroic dungeons are basically RoK's version of T1-3 raiding.    Really shouldn't raid progression be done in raid zones?  My KoS heroic gear should be enough to progress into TSO heroics.   Why am I being told I need to raid some RoK if I want to progress into TSO heroics?   Surely the game doesn't require it, but the playerbase is.

[EasternKing]

sorry, i hate to break this to you, i have several fully decked out lvl 80 chars, and not one of the heroic zones in so far has been the least bit challenging to me, they have been easy and pretty boring truth being told, and thats going in with 6 people in the grp all decked out in t4+ raid gear+mythicals+full mastered.

so i really really FAIL to see how any zone requires raid gear, i tanked 90% of Guk : the Lower Corridor, we cleared everything upto the 2nd to last name where we stopped, the grp was me on Brigand+Temp+Wiz+Troub, thats right a zone thats supposedly one of the very hardest new zones, we did with 4 people 1 healer no dirge no mezzer no tank, thats what you can do to heroic content when your wearing the best raid gear around.

so i really really dont want to hear that raid gear is required for any of the new heroic zones, raid gear makes them absolute snooze fests.

they are all designed around people wearing solo/quested/crafted/6man heroic zone drops, i know this b/ocs i have had several arguments with zone designers, asking for a new zone like icydigs / nizara, and was told catergorically there will never EVER be heroic content added to eq2 designed around raiders. so far that has been stuck to, b/cos i havent seen 1 heroic zone yet that needs raid gear to succeed in.

[bks6721]

EasternKing wrote:

sorry, i hate to break this to you, i have several fully decked out lvl 80 chars, and not one of the heroic zones in so far has been the least bit challenging to me, they have been easy and pretty boring truth being told, and thats going in with 6 people in the grp all decked out in t4+ raid gear+mythicals+full mastered.

so i really really FAIL to see how any zone requires raid gear, i tanked 90% of Guk : the Lower Corridor, we cleared everything upto the 2nd to last name where we stopped, the grp was me on Brigand+Temp+Wiz+Troub, thats right a zone thats supposedly one of the very hardest new zones, we did with 4 people 1 healer no dirge no mezzer no tank, thats what you can do to heroic content when your wearing the best raid gear around.

so i really really dont want to hear that raid gear is required for any of the new heroic zones, raid gear makes them absolute snooze fests.

they are all designed around people wearing solo/quested/crafted/6man heroic zone drops, i know this b/ocs i have had several arguments with zone designers, asking for a new zone like icydigs / nizara, and was told catergorically there will never EVER be heroic content added to eq2 designed around raiders. so far that has been stuck to, b/cos i havent seen 1 heroic zone yet that needs raid gear to succeed in.

That IS my point.  The gear ISN"T required.  Why do so many players think it is?  If I had 1p for each time I was told I was undergeared I could buy my MYTHICAL.  I do understand that you need gear from easier TSO zones and Void gear to do the harder TSO zones.  RoK fabled isn't needed.  Too many people think it is.

I have not EVER said that everyone thinks this way.  Your gear, according to you, was overkill for the zones.  Way too many people want all their groups built the same way.

The raiding mindset, which is required for optimal raiding is creaping down to the easier stuff.   Running heroic content shouldn't require the perfection that raiding does.  I, or anyone else shouldn't have to be in the top 1% of our class to be considered "adequate" for running heroic content.  That should be reserved for raiding itself.  Too many people are beginning to require perfection for all content instead of just the elite content.  Not everyone, but far more than should be.  See what I'm saying?

I cannot remember that last group I did where a parse wasn't posted.  Why must we constantly judge eachothers performance?  As a healer I'd rather see people try to maintain proper agro position instead of trying to out parse eachother constantly.  Of course that rarely happens.  It may be wonderful in the raiding world to outparse eachother but in the PUG world if you let that tank keep agro my ungeared halfling will keep the tank alive.

[Melli]

bks6721 wrote:

Melli wrote:

bks6721 wrote:

 its a HEROIC dungeon ffs.. its not a raid position interview.    Why should my RAIDING ability be any consideration when it comes to running a group zone?  

MYTHICAL and BASIC minimum standard....   are we still talking about HEROIC zones?   Is a myth really required?  It sure shouldn't be.

Classifying all of the instances as heroic content without considering their tier isn't adequate though.  That's like comparing CoA to Maiden's.   There were a lot of people that had to gear up in RoK prior to being able to do Maiden's because it was a more difficult heroic dungeons.  Most T7 raiders were doing Maiden's right away.

This early in the expansion, mostly raiders are clearing the top tier instances and that's to be expected.  They have better gear and are use to dealing with scripted encounters.  Expecting to get a tier 3 group while still wearing pieces of MC gear is unrealistic unless you are really, really good at your class and everyone knows it.

Progression is about gearing up on the easier content in order to do the harder content.  You can't simply say "It's heroic so I should be able to do it" when it is tiered, progressive content.  Learn which instances are the easier ones and look for groups doing those.

it has been suggested that I start RoK teir 1 - 3 raiding to do TSO heroics.   When has raiding ever been a stepping stone to doing the same teir heroic dungeons.  It hasn't.   My players think it is.  It isn't.   I can do the zones (lower TSO heroics) in my current gear.   Too many people think I'm undergeared for it.  I'm not.   Being fully geared should be a BONUS not a minimum requirement.   You don't need VP gear for PR do you?  Then I shouldn't need PR gear for TSO heroics.

These heroic dungeons are basically RoK's version of T1-3 raiding.    Really shouldn't raid progression be done in raid zones?  My KoS heroic gear should be enough to progress into TSO heroics.   Why am I being told I need to raid some RoK if I want to progress into TSO heroics?   Surely the game doesn't require it, but the playerbase is.

Anyone that says you need raid gear for T1 or T2 TSO instances is being a [Removed for Content], plain and simple.  And I still find it very hard to believe that every group is telling you this.  T1 and T2 instances are easy - I've done them in some truly pathetic pugs (top tier dps classes parsing under 1K for goodness sake) with tanks that aren't even max level.

I would not want to do a T3 instance with the average PUG if the ones I've been unlucky to join up with are any indication of the average player - it has less to do with gear than with skill though.  The average player NEEDS to gear up in the easier instances because they don't have the skills.  I'm not saying non-raiders do not have the skill, just that having the gear makes an average player a little bit better than average.

It's called progression - IF you are raid geared, your progression takes place in raid zones, and the heroic content is easy from the start.  If you are not a raider, your progression is going to take place in the heroic zones.  Try finding groups for the easier instances and stop expected that you can do all the content without having to progress.  I'm not whining 'cause my raid can't clear the hardest raid zone a week after release FFS.

[Rijacki]

bks6721 wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

Do you need better gear to do the hardest instances?  Yes, but it's the gear you can obtain from doing the easier instances.  It doesn't require -any- raiding.

 It is not the "zones" that require the best gear.  It is the players making that demand.   I've grouped all of RoK and I have 3 peices of lvl 77 MC still, the rest is Legendary with a couple quest fabled.   This apparently is NOT GOOD ENOUGH for most people.   They expect to see a myth weapon or VP gear for HEROIC zones.    So who exactly is wanting the IWIN button in this case?

Exactly.

Your problem (and the problem of anyone complaining they're "required" to have raid gear) is with the players and NOT with the design of the game. 

Players are the ones who decide want to require a certain gear level to give a group invite.  It is NOT the game which stops you at the door if you don't have thus and so pieces of gear.

Players are the ones who complain they need thus and so pieces of gear (do nothing to get them) and pout and complain about everything being too hard if they don't have the gear bits they have no desire to obtain.

So, what can you do? simple, start your own groups and ignore those who demand a certain type of gear is required. You don't even need to join a guild to do it.

Will you succeed? If the players are competent, sure, you have as much chance at completing any of the dungeons as anyone else.

[Haapy]

bks6721 wrote:

EasternKing wrote:

sorry, i hate to break this to you, i have several fully decked out lvl 80 chars, and not one of the heroic zones in so far has been the least bit challenging to me, they have been easy and pretty boring truth being told, and thats going in with 6 people in the grp all decked out in t4+ raid gear+mythicals+full mastered.

so i really really FAIL to see how any zone requires raid gear, i tanked 90% of Guk : the Lower Corridor, we cleared everything upto the 2nd to last name where we stopped, the grp was me on Brigand+Temp+Wiz+Troub, thats right a zone thats supposedly one of the very hardest new zones, we did with 4 people 1 healer no dirge no mezzer no tank, thats what you can do to heroic content when your wearing the best raid gear around.

so i really really dont want to hear that raid gear is required for any of the new heroic zones, raid gear makes them absolute snooze fests.

they are all designed around people wearing solo/quested/crafted/6man heroic zone drops, i know this b/ocs i have had several arguments with zone designers, asking for a new zone like icydigs / nizara, and was told catergorically there will never EVER be heroic content added to eq2 designed around raiders. so far that has been stuck to, b/cos i havent seen 1 heroic zone yet that needs raid gear to succeed in.

That IS my point.  The gear ISN"T required.  Why do so many players think it is?  If I had 1p for each time I was told I was undergeared I could buy my MYTHICAL.  I do understand that you need gear from easier TSO zones and Void gear to do the harder TSO zones.  RoK fabled isn't needed.  Too many people think it is.

You have said that you are wearing KoS heroic gear. That is BEYOND undergeared. I am sorry, but yeah, in your case, everyone that has turned you down was right. Normally only tank needs a bare minimum of lvl 77 MC suit to get by in 4 easier zones, but KoS stuff? It does not matter what class you are, from a healer standpoint, a group is better off with an empty spot.

I have not EVER said that everyone thinks this way.  Your gear, according to you, was overkill for the zones.  Way too many people want all their groups built the same way.

The raiding mindset, which is required for optimal raiding is creaping down to the easier stuff.   Running heroic content shouldn't require the perfection that raiding does.  I, or anyone else shouldn't have to be in the top 1% of our class to be considered "adequate" for running heroic content.  That should be reserved for raiding itself.  Too many people are beginning to require perfection for all content instead of just the elite content.  Not everyone, but far more than should be.  See what I'm saying?

Yes, you want to auto-attack and afk autofollow people around through instances. Sorry, but basic competence and knowlege of the class SHOULD be a requirement to get any legendary gear out of any dungeon. If there is even a slightest possibility of fabled drop, then everyone in group should put at least some effort and followed some simple skill checks to deserve it. Perfection? Hardly. Just asking for people to show some curtesy to a fellow groupmates and do the job you were invited to do at the best of your ability.

I cannot remember that last group I did where a parse wasn't posted.  Why must we constantly judge eachothers performance?  As a healer I'd rather see people try to maintain proper agro position instead of trying to out parse eachother constantly.  Of course that rarely happens.  It may be wonderful in the raiding world to outparse eachother but in the PUG world if you let that tank keep agro my ungeared halfling will keep the tank alive.

How is keeping the tank alive relavant to others pulling aggro? Concentrate on tank first and foremost. If you can spare a heal to the aggro getters - throw them one. If you cannot - let them die. As long as tank stays up, you are golden. You are expected to keep  the rest of the group alive through AoEs, some scripts, some unavoidable frontals. But dont worry if someone is dying to their own stupidity.

I really do not see any elitism or requirements for grouping in TSO. Sorry, but my groups are usually 3-4 guildmates and 2 "others" and we'll take anyone lvl 78+ for anything from easy to medium depending on the group makeup. No one will get turned down based on the gear or even class, we just might do an easier instance rather than something really hard (except for KoS gear, yeah, that would get you shot down). I do not think I have seen anything about mythical requirements on my server in level chat. I can think of 3 of my guildmates that were getting pugs in TSO on a daily basis.

[Melli]

Wow I completely missed the KOS gear part - I must have automagically translated it into RoK gear instead. 

Each expansion builds on the last.  It's part of the progression of the game.  Progression isn't just about raiding and quite frankly, it has to be that way.  If they tuned TSO to what people were wearing in KoS which was two expansions ago, anyone with EoF or RoK gear would blow through the content without any challenge whatsoever.

You need to step back and think about it logically.  If you are expecting to do TSO 75+ instances in KoS gear, you're a fool.  It would be fine for a L50 to start gearing themselves up in TSO instances because they are scaled for L50 and what a L50 on average would be wearing, and there is a reason why not all instances scale down to L50.

I wouldn't group you if I noticed you were in KoS gear and I'll group just about anyone who hasn't already proven themselves a poor or unpleasant player.  You have unreasonable expectations if you think at L80 (which I will assume you are at since you said mythicals were an issue) that you can do it with gear from two expansions ago.

Maybe you should try mentoring down and doing some of the scaled instances with L60ish groups - or try progressing through the previous content to gear yourself up a bit. 

And just a suggestion as one healer to another - get ProfitUI if you at all can and use it.  It makes healing the rest of your group much easier because you can keep your target on the tank while doing so.  If DPS does not occasionally gank aggro, they are not trying hard enough and your job as a healer is to keep them alive unless doing so will cause you to lose the tank.

[Silverpaws]

Plain and simple:

I played 10 years; raiding fulltime endgame Everquest (until eq2 came out), and casual raiding EQ2 with alliances and our own guild.  I have grouped along side raiders, pugs, and guild groups.  I have been able to group due to my abilities to play the game.  I have been able to accomplish things because there was not an invisible bar to leap over.  It was.... progression....   I was able to get difficult quests done with pick up raids, and groups, and I was able to particpate in the lore and fun that EQ2 has(d) to offer.  I was able to fill in as a back up tank, or MT, or even a healer/dps.  I was able to do so many things because the the game required that I know how to play my class in conjuction with other classes for the best outcome.

The reason I quit?  I have never, until now, been asked for a resume of gear to do grouped instances.  And for those that think we are all crazy posting about this, trust me, it is happening. 

As I told a friend of mine:  I cannot justify trying to have fun with people who judge my abilities by how many raid dropped items I wear.  This is unacceptible as an expansion providing the most grouped zones since its game inception.  If you feel the need to blame the player base for this attitude, remember this:  They do not make the quest lines, zone difficutly, or loot drops.  This is fully and completly created (and changeable) by the devoplers.

5 expansions does not a quality game make.

And no, you cant have my stuff...

[Vortexelemental]

Just going to quote myself from my own topic

Vortexelemental@The Bazaar wrote:

Official Overall Position on Expansion: Rating 1/10 Complete Failure

We ran Miraguls: Scion of Ice last night, no we did not have issues on nameds, no we did not have issues with scripts. Trash mobs killed us, we never made it to named, we did a repair run came back tryed some more and gave up.

Group setup 77 berserker, 80 bruiser, 80 inquis, 74 fury, 80 necro and another 80 i can't really remember he was a dps though. I was tentatively named tank. I tried, and the bruiser pulled off me, because he had really great gear. So, we let him tank, i offtanked, he was dieing occassionally off just trash mobs, i would rescue off, and i would die instantly on rescue.

Meanwhile everyone is screaming get better crap. I did, i now have 54.2% Mit, and 52.9% avoid. Happy? i am also almost 78 despite numerous attempts at dieing.

Reasons for failing? We went to Sebilis last night, i wanted the Golden Leggings, we were going to kill iksar for reet and hit the banker, group setup, 71 fury, 73 fury, 77 berserker, 80 monk, 80 assassin, 76 wizard.

Now you are going to say oh no you couldnt do that with 2 furies that low, right? We had no issues whatsoever with healing we progressed at a good pace got a bunch of nameds and was near banker, the assassin had to leave though so now our dps was lacking. We got to banker and at 1% we had adds spawn behind us while we were all low on power. We died, because i had no power left to pull adds, we didn't mind i can always go again because it was tough but fun and doable.

Chance coincidence, but we had level 71, and 73 healers healing for level 79 mobs.

I have ran 12 TSO instances, i still have 2 shards.

I give up, if you don't understand you never will.

If THIS wasn't proof, i don't know what is.

ps. the 1 is for great solo content, the other negative 9 points are for buggy, improperly tested group content.

[Oh]

Denuve@Mistmoore wrote:

The reason I quit?  I have never, until now, been asked for a resume of gear to do grouped instances.  And for those that think we are all crazy posting about this, trust me, it is happening. 

IF someone is going to start asking for a resumee for me or any of my alts, I just polietly tell them I am no longer interested in the group. There are some groups that interest me and others that don't. Although this isn't an issue SoE can do anything about it is completely player driven.

As to your decision to quit only you can truely say if it is a good one or not. Considering your length of time playing this game inpartiqular, and considering your response to the question mostlikely it was a good decision. I wish you luck in your future journeys and games.

[Melli]

Denuve@Mistmoore wrote:

Plain and simple:

I played 10 years; raiding fulltime endgame Everquest (until eq2 came out), and caual raiding EQ2 with alliances and our own guild.  I have grouped along side raiders, pugs, and guild groups.  I have been able to group due to my abilities to play the game.  I have been able to accomplish things because there was not an invisible bar to leap over.  It was.... progression....   I was able to get difficult quests done with pick up raids, and groups, and I was able to particpate in the lore and fun that EQ2 has(d) to offer.  I was able to fill in as a back up tank, or MT, or even a healer/dps.  I was able to do so many things because the the game required that I know how to play my class in conjuction with other classes for the best outcome.

The reason I quit?  I have never, until now, been asked for a resume of gear to do grouped instances.  And for those that think we are all crazy posting about this, trust me, it is happening. 

As I told a friend of mine:  I cannot justify trying to have fun with people who judge my abilities by how many raid dropped items I wear.  This is unacceptible as an expansion providing the most grouped zones since its game inception.  If you feel the need to blame the player base for this attitude, remember this:  They do not make the quest lines, zone difficutly, or loot drops.  This is fully and completly created (and changeable) by the devoplers.

5 expansions does not a quality game make.

And no, you cant have my stuff...

I would expec t with a long history of grouping, raiding and being in a guild that you would have quite a few people that know your skills and would form groups with you because of that alone. Short of that, a friends list or an idea of how to form your own groups and be successful that way.

Personally, I've never been asked for a resume for any group at any time, ever.  Not even on my dusty old warden that retired the minute she hit 80 (and still doesn't have 140 AAs). 

This is entirely a player based attitude - the developers created good content.  There's some bugginess but overall, the zones are interesting and fun.  The solo quests are fun.  The shard system lets people who don't raid get some gear that is comparable to much of the VP gear us elitist raiders have been working on for months.  If players demand a certain level of gear, there isn't much the developers can do about that - if they waved a magic wand and made everyone equal (which is the only way to fix that problem) or made all group content so easy that any random group wearing any combination of gear could do it, why play?

[Melli]

Double post

[Kendricke]

Melli wrote:

Denuve@Mistmoore wrote:

Plain and simple:

I played 10 years; raiding fulltime endgame Everquest (until eq2 came out), and caual raiding EQ2 with alliances and our own guild.  I have grouped along side raiders, pugs, and guild groups.  I have been able to group due to my abilities to play the game.  I have been able to accomplish things because there was not an invisible bar to leap over.  It was.... progression....   I was able to get difficult quests done with pick up raids, and groups, and I was able to particpate in the lore and fun that EQ2 has(d) to offer.  I was able to fill in as a back up tank, or MT, or even a healer/dps.  I was able to do so many things because the the game required that I know how to play my class in conjuction with other classes for the best outcome.

The reason I quit?  I have never, until now, been asked for a resume of gear to do grouped instances.  And for those that think we are all crazy posting about this, trust me, it is happening. 

As I told a friend of mine:  I cannot justify trying to have fun with people who judge my abilities by how many raid dropped items I wear.  This is unacceptible as an expansion providing the most grouped zones since its game inception.  If you feel the need to blame the player base for this attitude, remember this:  They do not make the quest lines, zone difficutly, or loot drops.  This is fully and completly created (and changeable) by the devoplers.

5 expansions does not a quality game make.

And no, you cant have my stuff...

I would expec t with a long history of grouping, raiding and being in a guild that you would have quite a few people that know your skills and would form groups with you because of that alone. Short of that, a friends list or an idea of how to form your own groups and be successful that way.

Personally, I've never been asked for a resume for any group at any time, ever.  Not even on my dusty old warden that retired the minute she hit 80 (and still doesn't have 140 AAs). 

This is entirely a player based attitude - the developers created good content.  There's some bugginess but overall, the zones are interesting and fun.  The solo quests are fun.  The shard system lets people who don't raid get some gear that is comparable to much of the VP gear us elitist raiders have been working on for months.  If players demand a certain level of gear, there isn't much the developers can do about that - if they waved a magic wand and made everyone equal (which is the only way to fix that problem) or made all group content so easy that any random group wearing any combination of gear could do it, why play?

Melli is dead on here. 

In old Everquest, it was commonplace for groups to look for players who had 100+ AA, or 200+ AA, or even specific AA.  Does this mean that you "required" 200+ AA to run some dungeons?  No, but having 200+ achievements generally meant you'd put some time/effort into your character and that there was a better chance that you'd probably be better at playing your class.

If you have a good reputation as a quality player, then you shouldn't need to worry about random group invites anyway.  If you have a good reptuation as a quality player, you shouldn't need to worry about finding groups to begin with.  If you belong to a quality guild as well as having a good reputation as a quality player, there should be NO issues in finding groups.  To top all of that off, if you happen to be a quality fighter/tank, you shouldn't even need to worry about finding groups - you should be FORMING groups.

[revren]

Hey Hey

Why do you expect to be able to clear all the zones the first week??? While i think it is wrong that some one asks you if you have your mythical before you join it is just as stupid to assume you will be able to walk threw all of the Content the first day. When  People started doing maidens it was hard, people looked for specific class ect , however now the zone is easy and can be run threw.  Give it some time , maybe get to learn how the dungeons work.. This is not about raid gear this is abotu wanting every thing now.  Maybe just Maybe , you should start on the easy stuff and work your self up.  This expectaion is a joke. Please SOE give us more hard zones , where you have to think, find people that yo uwork well with , and have some feeling of accomplishment.

Welcome Home

Rev

[Bratface]

Kizee wrote:

I call bull on people JUST looking for raid geared people.

I have never run into that problem ever ever ever.

Oh really?

On my server it's so bad that raid guilds are selling spaces in groups for TSO dungeons, everyone wants a raid geared toon in their instance so now guilds are marketing themselves.

I'd even post [Removed for Content] but I can't figure out how to blur the name out of the toon selling the services. I fail at photoshopping =/

People want raiders in their instances and they will turn down anyone not very very well equipped, I am lucky in that I have never had to do a pug or anything like that, but for the people that do its not fun right now. They can't get in a group unless they are raid geared so they can't even get upgrades to have a chance at doing it without raiders.

But yeah, it happens...

[Kendricke]

Bratface wrote:

Kizee wrote:

I call bull on people JUST looking for raid geared people.

I have never run into that problem ever ever ever.

Oh really?

On my server it's so bad that raid guilds are selling spaces in groups for TSO dungeons, everyone wants a raid geared toon in their instance so now guilds are marketing themselves.

I'd even post [Removed for Content] but I can't figure out how to blur the name out of the toon selling the services. I fail at photoshopping =/

People want raiders in their instances and they will turn down anyone not very very well equipped, I am lucky in that I have never had to do a pug or anything like that, but for the people that do its not fun right now. They can't get in a group unless they are raid geared so they can't even get upgrades to have a chance at doing it without raiders.

But yeah, it happens...

Form.  Your.  Own.  Groups.

Problem solved.

[Killerbee3000]

Bratface wrote:

Oh really?

On my server it's so bad that raid guilds are selling spaces in groups for TSO dungeons,

And if there would be less than handful of people willing to pay they woudnt offer it, point is, if even one of them would go and say LFM for Deep Forge, could use some dps and a tank (feel free to replace zone name and classes with whatever) the others would go for the free option and then suddenly noone would try to sell group spots anymore.

Problem is that some players are simply not willing to risk things anymore, it was allready apparent in ROK where you could see PUG's insisting on having 2 healers for KC and not even willing to move to the zone with one healer, or groups refusing brawlers as tanks even for easy mode zones like COA.

[liveja]

Denuve@Mistmoore wrote:

When I lfg as a paladin with non-VP geared equipment, I was told, and I am telling the truth "you cant do this expansion without raid gear". 

I'm sorry, but whoever on Mistmoore told you THAT line of utter codswallop? Please PM me that idiots name, so I can get on the level chat to point fingers & laugh at the [Removed for Content].

[erin]

Bratface wrote:

People want raiders in their instances and they will turn down anyone not very very well equipped, I am lucky in that I have never had to do a pug or anything like that, but for the people that do its not fun right now. They can't get in a group unless they are raid geared so they can't even get upgrades to have a chance at doing it without raiders.

But yeah, it happens...

Yes, people want raiders in their instances.  But I have issues with your second statement.  Other than the tank, I've never seen soemone turned down due to equipment.  On the other hand, I'm not trying to do the toughest instances either.  Most groups are happy to get a healer, nobody has ever looked at my gear.  Same with my illusionist.  My tank?  Yeah well I'm not about to try the harder instances with a legendary/MC equipped tank, so its not going to come up.

[Giral]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Denuve@Mistmoore wrote:

When I lfg as a paladin with non-VP geared equipment, I was told, and I am telling the truth "you cant do this expansion without raid gear". 

I'm sorry, but whoever on Mistmoore told you THAT line of utter codswallop? Please PM me that idiots name, so I can get on the level chat to point fingers & laugh at the [Removed for Content].

and People said i couldn't tank Raids with an Sk , but playing ,raiding and MT and OT tanking with my Sk since release

oh wait you mean there are Morons in this world  that spew garbage ? who would have thunk it /ponder

anyway to repeat what has been said countless times

Make your own groups,

Join a guild that does alot of grouping

find other like minded guilds and create a private channel that you can build groups in together

constantly add nice, friendly ,helpfull people to your friends list and put notes next to there names like "normal playtimes,class,etc"

when looking for a group in level chat make it a point to state " NON-fabled or NON-Raid-geared extremely Great Healer (or tank,dps) LFG group "  if you got Cahonies, you know your skilled with your class alot more would be willing to invite you.

build a rep , i have seen many people in chat channel stick up for someone who has proved they are a great tank even tho not raid geared,  and likewise throw your voice out there if you see someone who did an exceptional job in a group with you "so and so is great healer,tank,etc,,"

also

Progression, Void shard loot = we have a year to do these group zones, the dev's Know these zones have to last the "Grouping" players for MONTHS, expansion just came out, so many raiders are slackin a bit, give it another week or so and they will be back to full time raiding , and just like rok and RE2,Veksar, your NON-Raiding Casual groups will eventualy clear every single group zone in the game, only differance in TSO is that you can buy some pretty Sweet Items/Gear with Void shards to help you Progress onward .

if anything i think the dev's have done a great job with the group game, there are all the rok zones+all the Tso zones , thats  27 Group zones you can do , there is now a HUGE grouping game at lvl 80,  the game isnt going anywhere, eventualy you will clear it all, but atleast there is some progression,and things to look forard to and Multiple zones to play in as you gear up .

anyway if your on Butcherblock, and need a Tank(Giralus) or Healer(Heracey) give me a shout anytime for a group

[LordPazuzu]

/1 [level 70-79] Forming group for Scion of Ice, need (DPS/Healer/Tank/Whatever), pst for invite!

There you go, problem solved.

[Noaani]

Random thoughts...

Bratface wrote:

I'd even post [Removed for Content] but I can't figure out how to blur the name out of the toon selling the services. I fail at photoshopping =/

 Use Microsoft Paint, brush tool, and smear a big black line over the name. t doesn't matter what it looks like, but if you do indeed have a pic of it, post it or don't bother talking about it.

Vortexelemental@The Bazaar wrote:

Group setup 77 berserker, 80 bruiser, 80 inquis, 74 fury, 80 necro and another 80 i can't really remember he was a dps though

...

We went to Sebilis last night, i wanted the Golden Leggings, we were going to kill iksar for reet and hit the banker, group setup, 71 fury, 73 fury, 77 berserker, 80 monk, 80 assassin, 76 wizard.

Not sure if you are aware of how this game works or not (actually, I am sure, you are not aware), but mobs in open dungeons are significantly easier than mobs in instances. This has always been the case, and will always continue to be the case. In an instance, the challange is the mobs, there is nothing else to worry about, and everything is under the collective control of your group. In open dungeons you have the added variable of other groups, the possibility of trains, and the possibility of others beating you to mobs.

Also, Sebilis is RoK content, Scion of Ice is TSO content. Although both may well be labeled as appropriate for level 80 characters fact that they are from different expansons means that the newer content needs to be harder. Since every expansion provides a means that players are more powerful, thus mobs need to be more powerful to compensate.

Lastly, a level 77 tank, in Scion of Ice, would have been tanking high yellow mobs, as opposed to blue - white in Sebilis.

These combined factors (mobs being harder in Scion due to zone type, mobs being harder in Scion due to the era in the game the content was released and mobs in Scion being harder due to their level), and you are supprised at the outcome?

Denuve@Mistmoore wrote:

If you feel the need to blame the player base for this attitude, remember this:  They do not make the quest lines, zone difficutly, or loot drops.  This is fully and completly created (and changeable) by the devoplers.

Your a paladin, and presumably you are going to be tanking instances. As a tank, your gear means as much as your skill at your class when it comes to harder mobs, against hard mobs, gear means more than player skill. In this game, you would not have run into this at all unless you were raiding, or were killing content that was a much higher level than you.

If the zones that the groups in question were running were easy, then it was probably simply a case of miss information on the part of someone in the group, if they were running any of the harder zones (any of the Guks, Necrotic, Outer Stronghold,Ravenscale, Kor-Sha or Palace), and you are not RoK raid geared or wearing some of the advanced shard armour gear, then they are perfectly valid in wanting a better geared tank.

bks6721 wrote:

That IS my point.  The gear ISN"T required.  Why do so many players think it is?  If I had 1p for each time I was told I was undergeared I could buy my MYTHICAL.  I do understand that you need gear from easier TSO zones and Void gear to do the harder TSO zones.  RoK fabled isn't needed.  Too many people think it is.

You are correct in that the top end TSO zones do not require RoK fabled to clear, and are more than do-able in the drops from earlier zones, and from shard merchant gear.

However, as of right now, no one will have enough of that gear to be able to do the harder zones if they did not also have RoK raid gear. While it is wrong to require raid gear for heroic instances in TSO, there simply has not yet been enough time to get the non raid loot to compensate.

It would be more appropriate to ask for players with 90% RoK raid and/or good TSO legendary/fabled. Since the latter is not yet possible, the former is what is being asked for when running hard zones.

Thunndar316 wrote:

Sometimes there are only 2-3 players on with a max of 10-15.  Hardly enough for a raid and we choose not to actvely recruit. 

And thus forfeit your right to complain.

You know what is needed in order to improve yourself and your guild, and you CHOSE to not do so. Arn't choices wonderful?

[Kordran]

erin wrote:

Yes, people want raiders in their instances.  But I have issues with your second statement.  Other than the tank, I've never seen soemone turned down due to equipment.

I don't think it's really so much the gear per se, unless (as you point out) it's the tank. People are using gear as a rough measuring stick for overall competence of the player by examining their toon. It's not a perfect means of determining player skill by any stretch of the imagination, but you generally know that someone with some fabled and their epic has spent more time developing their toon than someone walking around in full mastercrafted with some legendary jewelry. And someone who's full fabled with their mythical has usually spent more time again. Yes, it's possible that someone was carried through the raid zones. And it's also possible that you could have an excellent player who just hasn't had the time to gear up. But inspecting them really is the only visible criteria that's available to other players.

While the argument can be made, and I would agree to some extent, that it's the players not the game imposing this criteria, it's also true that the design encourages this. Before RoK, instance groups could pretty much take all comers. If you had duplicate classes and/or people in mediocre gear things wouldn't go as quickly, but the content could be completed. RoK introduced more group composition requirement for some instances; you really wanted specific classes to avoid frustration. TSO has expanded on that, not only requiring solid group composition, but a kind of core competency on the part of the players both in terms of general player skill (all basic stuff, but just autofollowing the tank and mashing buttons while watching the Mork & Mindy marathon on the SciFi channel won't work) and in terms of gear.

This isn't a bad thing in of itself. But it does mean that in PUGs the other players will want "evidence" that you're not a scrub, otherwise they're just wasting their time. What is there besides gear? And so people are doing what they can to avoid frustration and a high repair bill. You can hardly blame them for that.

Edit: As an aside, what I've also seen is players who are being kicked from groups in favor of better-geared replacements. Personally I've never really felt comfortable doing that -- I'd rather just disband and reform a new group than single out a particular player -- but it is happening. While I wouldn't say that it's common, anecdotally speaking, I see it more now than before TSO. And if one thing is going to drive people to cancel their subscriptions, it's probably having other people tell you that you're not good enough to play with them and be unceremoniously dumped out of groups.

[thajo]

If tanks and healers perform like some of the random DPS i have seen in forming groups, I'd be worried.  So whats the tank equivalent of the mage you pickup that does 1 - 1.5k dps?  ;O

[Kordran]

Dakkota@Unrest wrote:

If tanks and healers perform like some of the random DPS i have seen in forming groups, I'd be worried.  So whats the tank equivalent of the mage you pickup that does 1 - 1.5k dps?  ;O

If you're asking what to look for when you inspect them, self-buffed (out of group) if they have around 10K health (or less), mitigation and avoidance in the 40s (or worse) and/or overall have poor resists, then I'd give them a pass because that's fairly bottom-of-the-barrel.

[liveja]

I've inspected a few of my group mates in TSO instances, but not because I cared whether or not they had raid gear. Instead, I've just wanted to see how many of them have their mythical.

So far, in four TSO instance groups, I've only done one in which even one person had a mythical. The others, most of the group had their fabled epic ... but since that's single-groupable, it doesn't count as a "hardcore raider" weapon. Anyone who takes the time to group with others can obtain his/her fabled epic, among other things.

Personally, I *expect* that when a person gets to 80th level, he/she has some knowledge of what gear is worthwhile, how to obtain gear, & how to play his/her class. I don't expect anyone to have any fabled gear at all; just plain old ROK legendary is fine. & quite frankly, I'm not the least bit sympathetic to those who claim they can't even get a group for ROK legendary.

Some people think that belief makes me "scum", but I'm betting most people see it as common sense.

[Kordran]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

So far, in four TSO instance groups, I've only done one in which even one person had a mythical. The others, most of the group had their fabled epic ... but since that's single-groupable, it doesn't count as a "hardcore raider" weapon. Anyone who takes the time to group with others can obtain his/her fabled epic, among other things.

On the other hand, players without their fabled epic (with some exception, if they have another fabled weapon) can also be an indicator. Either they just hit level 80 recently, or they don't really take their character development seriously. Not having their mythical is one thing; they may be in a smaller causual guild that doesn't raid, or they haven't progressed to VP yet. But someone without their fabled, that says something entirely different.

If you can't be bothered to even run a heroic quest line to get a nice weapon for yourself, how concerned are you really about playing well?

[Bratface]

Kendricke wrote:

Bratface wrote:

Kizee wrote:

I call bull on people JUST looking for raid geared people.

I have never run into that problem ever ever ever.

Oh really?

On my server it's so bad that raid guilds are selling spaces in groups for TSO dungeons, everyone wants a raid geared toon in their instance so now guilds are marketing themselves.

I'd even post [Removed for Content] but I can't figure out how to blur the name out of the toon selling the services. I fail at photoshopping =/

People want raiders in their instances and they will turn down anyone not very very well equipped, I am lucky in that I have never had to do a pug or anything like that, but for the people that do its not fun right now. They can't get in a group unless they are raid geared so they can't even get upgrades to have a chance at doing it without raiders.

But yeah, it happens...

Form.  Your.  Own.  Groups.

Problem solved.

Did you bother to read what you were replying to? I have my own group, hence the reason for NEVER being in a pug.

So for you to tell me to form my own group is kind of, well, not smart.

[greenmantle]

Meridia@Lucan DLere wrote:

Kizee wrote:

I call bull on people JUST looking for raid geared people.

I have never run into that problem ever ever ever.

i myself was turned down for a group in re2 because i didnt have my mythical.

[Removed for Content] does having my mythical have anything to do with my job as an illusionist?

Kizee just because it doesnt happen to you doesnt mean it doesnt happen, i almost got kicked from a re2 group they asked" what are you an alt or some thing the groups a bit worried about your gear " mind you the brawler tanking was "in his DPS gear cause i just came from a raid "

[Anurra]

Kordran wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

So far, in four TSO instance groups, I've only done one in which even one person had a mythical. The others, most of the group had their fabled epic ... but since that's single-groupable, it doesn't count as a "hardcore raider" weapon. Anyone who takes the time to group with others can obtain his/her fabled epic, among other things.

On the other hand, players without their fabled epic (with some exception, if they have another fabled weapon) can also be an indicator. Either they just hit level 80 recently, or they don't really take their character development seriously. Not having their mythical is one thing; they may be in a smaller causual guild that doesn't raid, or they haven't progressed to VP yet. But someone without their fabled, that says something entirely different.

If you can't be bothered to even run a heroic quest line to get a nice weapon for yourself, how concerned are you really about playing well?

Just to come at you from a different angle:

My main was my paladin - was in a small causal guild and then moved to a larger one. When I joined the larger one they wanted a brigand so I switched mains and played my 80 brigand instead. With the release of TSO, I decided to play my paladin more because I wanted to help the guild gear up since we are short on a tanks at the moment for reasons that don't really matter to this post. I have not asked the guild to help me with my paladin's fabeled epic because I don't even have it on my brigand yet and that is not fair by any means. I have good legendary and some fabeled items from RoK. But I do not have my fabeled epic. I have 12.5k HP self buffed with 54%/55% mit/avoidance. When buffed in groups I can have upwards to 15.5k-16k HP with 60%/60% mit/avoidance. So there may be some people that have been put in a spot like I have been but I can't say how many.

I personally find these new easy instances a bit much. Maybe it is because SoE changed the way the game is to be played. I can understand that. I can also understand and AGREE with having zone progressions. I think it is great there is something out there for everyone. That is how it should be. My only gripe is this: when a zone has been marked as "easy" it in fact, may be very difficult. It can be difficult for several different reasons:

1. Playing with a PUG and the team work would not be very high. This hinders the group during scripted events.

2. Group make up. If you do not bring a lot og AoE DPS to say, Befallen, you'll be hurting. Sure, uber gear can help with this, but causals and small guilds do not have the luxury on this.

3. Gear on the players. If the players are causals and have not done as many instances as others, or are not in a raid guild, the gear may be not be as good as other groups. This would hinder the group here.

I feel that the easy instances in this expansion should not have the three points matter. I feel that the instances should be easy enough so a PUG of any make up of players (random people, random classes, sub par or high end gear, etc) can complete them. Then anything above easy should start to impose the restrictions above (ie: Need good AoE dps, or a chanter, etc). Some people make the argument that people should do RoK instances to gear up to TSO. I don't necessarily agree with that. I think it makes sense from a raid stand point because progression in raiding is very important. But for grouping, you shouldn't have to be forced to gear up in the previous expansion (if no level cap increase) before you can tackle it. That is why we supposedly have....EASY instances!!!

I guess what I'm trying to say is, that the easy instances and only the easy instances may be a bit too difficult for causals and small guilds. If their difficulty were toned down a bit, any one could get the void shards needed to progress to the Easy-Moderate, Moderate and Hard (maybe) zones. I feel that would be an acceptable form of progression. Most of the changes would have to be in form of monster and script tweaks. Such as, lower monster HP or if a named spawns an add every 10 seconds, change it to 20 seconds, etc. But that can be a whole other discussion thread.

Ok, ok, time to stop rambling.