Hard Caps, Soft Caps, And you

[victer]

This is a list that i have created for my guild forums for them to referance. I was just wondering if my information is correct or if i should add/take anything away.

Please help me verify this information as im not sure if anything has recently changed.

Diminishing Returns means that when you reach certain level of any skill, (mitigation, slashing, defense, etc...) you will start to get minimal benefits from raising its value. Soft Cap: referred to as the Break Even Point, is not an actual cap, but the value at which you start seeing less return from adding more points to a given stat. Hard Cap: The definite value at which you will no longer see a benefit from adding more points to a stat. Stats (str/agi/sta/int/wis) Hard Cap : [ 15 * level + 20 ] = 1220 at level 80. Soft Cap: approx 800 Mitigation (same as resists) Hard Cap: [ Level * 150 ] = 12000 at level 80 or 75%. Soft Cap: approx 4400 Skills (slash/peirce/def/parry/focus/ministration and so on) Hard Cap : [ 6.5 * Level ] = 520 Soft Cap: unknown Hate Hard Cap: -50% to +50% each (no soft cap) +Spell Damage / +Combat Art Damage / +Heals Hard Cap: 50% of damage/heal of the skill Critical Mitigation This has a base % dependent on your AGI. Hard Cap: 100%. Critical Mitigation applies to only TSO mobs. 100% Crit Mit will absorb all additional damage done from the mob criting an attack. Armor/Shields The level of your armor and shield compared to you makes a difference in how much mitigation% and block% you recieve from your items. For example when you are level 80 and you wear a level 80 item with 100 mitigation, it will give you more absorbing% then a level 10 item with 100 mitigation. Same goes with the protection on shield, a level 80 shield with 1000 protection will give more block% then a lvl 20 shield with 1000. Weapons Double Attack and Crits Hard Cap = 100% (no soft cap) Weapon Crit Calculation: [ Crit% * 1.09 [ max - min ] + max + min ] / delay Use /weaponstats to get the real numbers depending on your gear/current buffs. Haste/DPS mod Hard Cap: 200 points. The 200 points equates to 125%. Haste/DPS mod Soft Cap: approx 80 points. Generally speaking, 40% of the hard cap is roughly the break even point on most the diminishing returns graphs for resists, stats, and skills. Contested vs Uncontested (for skills/stats... not mobs) Contested means that your level is compared to the mobs level to calculate the outcome of the action. Uncontested means that it doesn't matter what your level is compared to the mobs level. The action will take place the same % of times regardless of level. There are only a few things that are Uncontested. These are a few that I know of.

1. Block% (+% Shield Effectivness works as a addition to Block% depending on the base protection of your shield)
2. Riposte% on items or AA
3. Parry% on items or AA (NOT +parry)

Generally if your item or AA has plus to a percentage of something then it is considered uncontested. For example: A chestpeice with +1% parry is MUCH better then a chestpeice with +10 parry. Pretty much everything else is contested against the mobs level. Thats why an orange mob is more dangerous then a yellow mob.

[feldon30]

Fantastic Writeup!

[Ama]

Victer@Oasis wrote:

Contested vs Uncontested (for skills/stats... not mobs) Contested means that your level is compared to the mobs level to calculate the outcome of the action. Uncontested means that it doesn't matter what your level is compared to the mobs level. The action will take place the same % of times regardless of level. There are only a few things that are Uncontested. These are a few that I know of.

1. Block% (+% Shield Effectivness works as a addition to Block% depending on the base protection of your shield)
2. Riposte% on items or AA
3. Parry% on items or AA (NOT +parry)

Generally if your item or AA has plus to a percentage of something then it is considered uncontested. For example: A chestpeice with +1% parry is MUCH better then a chestpeice with +10 parry. Pretty much everything else is contested against the mobs level. Thats why an orange mob is more dangerous then a yellow mob.

Deffinately like your write up there bud where it pretty much spells out what is contested and what is uncontested.  It will deffinately help out people and tell them they should aim for certain specifics.  The Bold statement is probably the best one I can think of in a situation. 

[Beggon]

Dimishing returns means that each additional unit added gives you less gain than the previous unit gave you.

[sliderhouserules]

Victer@Oasis wrote:

Diminishing Returns means that when you reach certain level of any skill, (mitigation, slashing, defense, etc...) you will start to get minimal benefits from raising its value. Soft Cap: referred to as the Break Even Point, is not an actual cap, but the value at which you start seeing less return from adding more points to a given stat.

A soft cap in a diminishing returns curve is a misnomer. There is no soft cap, there is no "point" where you start to see less returns, unless you consider 2 compared to 1. *Every* point you put into something on a diminishing returns curve will yield you less than the previous point you put into it.

If you do understand this concept, your writeup doesn't convey it.

[victer]

sliderhouserules wrote:

A soft cap in a diminishing returns curve is a misnomer. There is no soft cap, there is no "point" where you start to see less returns, unless you consider 2 compared to 1. *Every* point you put into something on a diminishing returns curve will yield you less than the previous point you put into it.

If you do understand this concept, your writeup doesn't convey it.

im horrible with words and is a big reason why i came here for help.

by mentioning some mysterious value called a "soft cap" i am trying to give them an idea of a good number to shoot for when the returns start being less desirable. Such as at 80 haste/dps mod your haste/dps is +~77%. Putting more in here you start seeing much worse returns because you have another 120 mod to get which will only give another 48% more.

I'm not trying to show people that i do or dont understand the actual math behind these mechanics, im just trying to make it understandable so people in my guild will gear themselves to the best potential.

If someone can come up with a better way to describe my opening sentances please help me out.

[feldon30]

sliderhouserules wrote:

A soft cap in a diminishing returns curve is a misnomer

To me, it means that the angle of curve (improvement, per point gained) drops below 45 degrees.

[TheSpin]

I could be wrong on this, but I think that melee crit% would actually fall into the contested area.  Melee priests with 100% crit don't always crit on orange mobs.

Double attack does fall into the  uncontested area I believe.

[hellfire]

TheSpin wrote:

I could be wrong on this, but I think that melee crit% would actually fall into the contested area.  Melee priests with 100% crit don't always crit on orange mobs.

Double attack does fall into the  uncontested area I believe.

spells are same way...  believe 112% crit would be 100 pct on hghest orange mob.

[feldon30]

How does SoE keep up with all of the borked math in EQ2? lol

[Pins]

feldon30 wrote:

How does SoE keep up with all of the borked math in EQ2? lol

Uhm, how is it "borked"?  It all makes perfect sense when you actually look at it all.

Also, there is no hard cap on Critical Mitigation.  You may well need 200-300 Critical Mitigation next expansion.

[Mogzilla]

Victer@Oasis wrote:

 

1. Block% (+% Shield Effectivness works as a addition to Block% depending on the base protection of your shield)
2. Riposte% on items or AA
3. Parry% on items or AA (NOT +parry)

Brawler defensive and mid stances give uncontested avoidence.

[Calain80]

Critical Mitigation does not work like it is described here: 10% Critical Mitigation reduce the Critical Multiplier by 0.1. PCs normally have an Critical Multiplier of 1.3. So 30% Critical Mitigation should be enough to completely mitigate a critical hit made by a player. (But there are some AA that increase the Multiplier in the Shadow tree so it is only partially right.) But we don't know how high the Crit Multiplier of raidmobs will be. It might be that 2.0 is the highest we will encounter. Then 100% will remove all criticals, but it can also be that 1.5 or even 3.0 is the highest we ill encounter. With the first 50% would be enough. For the second you would even need 200% Critical Mitigation. Soon we will see how much we really need.

[Mystfit]

Anyone know what the hardcap will be for heal crits? It's early, I amy ahve missed it ,but didn't see it in the above.

[Killerbee3000]

Pinski wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

How does SoE keep up with all of the borked math in EQ2? lol

Uhm, how is it "borked"?  It all makes perfect sense when you actually look at it all.

Also, there is no hard cap on Critical Mitigation.  You may well need 200-300 Critical Mitigation next expansion.

So is it level based then i.e. 100% is only 100% against white con mobs and you need more to make it 100% against higher con mobs or is it something different?

[feldon30]

Haste/DPS mod Hard Cap: 200 points. The 200 points equates to 125%.

believe 112% crit would be 100 pct on hghest orange mob.

Example A and B of how the math is borked. If you don't see it, then you must work for SoE. Anywho, you've distracted me with your post, so I shall respond...

Also, there is no hard cap on Critical Mitigation. You may well need 200-300 Critical Mitigation next expansion.

First, I'm gonna call it Critical Avoidance cause it's not Mitigation. You have a percent chance to reduce damage. It is not uncontested block, or a block of any type really. Anyway, considering Critical Avoidance is a percent chance, I'm not quite sure how you are going to get much over 100%, but I guess you're welcome to try. By the way, the Advanced Void Shard Armor sets come with about 15 points of Critical Avoidance. And apparently you get another 10-15 points if you have a high main stat (yes, this brings up the issue that -- according to SoE -- scouts should have high AGI ). Not sure how someone is gonna get over 100% Critical Avoidance unless SoE starts putting 15 and 20 points of Critical Avoidance on every piece of gear (highest I've seen so far is 4 points).

[Antryg Mistrose]

feldon30 wrote:

First, I'm gonna call it Critical Avoidance cause it's not Mitigation. You have a percent chance to reduce damage. It is not uncontested block, or a block of any type really. Anyway, considering Critical Avoidance is a percent chance, I'm not quite sure how you are going to get much over 100%, but I guess you're welcome to try.

Not having bothered to apply to beta this time I can't categorically say thats rubbish, but it does conflict with what the developers posted.  My understanding is that a mob's critical hit of  say 13000 (vs a normal hit of 10000) is from a 30% crit multiplier.  If you have say 10% critical mitigation then the hit drops back to 12000, as 10% of the critical part of the hit is negated.

From the original post, there are a couple of other items that I believe are wrong:

1. +heals/+spell/+CA - the overall effect IS a diminishing returns curve (piecewise linear approximation as each particular spell reaches its cap and stops improving).  Its NOT always 50% either, cleric reactives cap out lower, as do spells with a DoT or AOE component.
2. The soft cap for resists I'd put a lot higher than 4400 - 8k at least (vs raid mob AoEs).
3. "Uncontested" isn't  just about ignoring the mobs level, its simply whether the mob is even considered in your roll for the avoidance check.  ie Contested takes into account the mobs skills and possibly stats, in addition to level (and THOSE can be debuffed).
4. I agree with other posters - there is no "soft cap" on a smoothly curving diminishing returns curve.  Its subjective where you say the returns are no longer worth it, as it depends what tier of gear you have access too when pushing multiple stats/effects as high as possible.

[Lethe5683]

Going over the hard cap doesn't no longer have an effect but it has a negative effect.  They have a formula for diminishing returns but I'm guessing the problem is they don't have it set to stop at the hard cap so the formula starts calculating diminishing returns into the negative values.  I'm sure this happens for power or hp stats but I'm not sure if it also effects what that stat does otherwise such as if taking str over the hard cap would start decreasing melee damage.

[salle]

Victer@Oasis wrote:

There are only a few things that are Uncontested. These are a few that I know of.

1. Block% (+% Shield Effectivness works as a addition to Block% depending on the base protection of your shield)
2. Riposte% on items or AA
3. Parry% on items or AA (NOT +parry)
4. Dodge% on items or AA 

Fixed it for you. Dodge% and Parry% can also be found on infusions etc.

Also hate transfer is 50% to and 50% from as well.

[sliderhouserules]

Lethe5683 wrote:

Going over the hard cap doesn't no longer have an effect but it has a negative effect.  They have a formula for diminishing returns but I'm guessing the problem is they don't have it set to stop at the hard cap so the formula starts calculating diminishing returns into the negative values.  I'm sure this happens for power or hp stats but I'm not sure if it also effects what that stat does otherwise such as if taking str over the hard cap would start decreasing melee damage.

This is categorically a bug, and if it isn't in their queue to be fixed then they need to get it on the list. Not everything is affected. I think pinski who already posted in this thread is the one that made the thread pointing this out months ago, so he may have more details.

[LygerT]

Victer@Oasis wrote:

Armor/Shields The level of your armor and shield compared to you makes a difference in how much mitigation% and block% you recieve from your items. For example when you are level 80 and you wear a level 80 item with 100 mitigation, it will give you more absorbing% then a level 10 item with 100 mitigation. Same goes with the protection on shield, a level 80 shield with 1000 protection will give more block% then a lvl 20 shield with 1000.

stop confusing the brawlers.

[SkyBee]

Guys, stop speed reading. jeez, lol.

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

1. I agree with other posters - there is no "soft cap" on a smoothly curving diminishing returns curve.  Its subjective where you say the returns are no longer worth it, as it depends what tier of gear you have access too when pushing multiple stats/effects as high as possible.

Ugh, the OP stated the soft cap is "not an actually cap"; thus, the soft cap is open for interpretation. I much rather make decisions upon a reference point instead of making decisions upon vague declaratives such "where you say the returns are no longer worth it".

sliderhouserules wrote:

This is categorically a bug, and if it isn't in their queue to be fixed then they need to get it on the list. Not everything is affected. I think pinski who already posted in this thread is the one that made the thread pointing this out months ago, so he may have more details.

Sliders, thanks for not posting the hyperlink now i'm off read a bunch of BS for a hour or more just to find Pinski's formulation. Arrrghhh. now off searching we go. grrr.

lol. Anways.

Victor, good stuf and thanks for caring. Caring is sharing. Victor, wish more would follow your upstanding example of good character !!

[SkyBee]

Antryg Mistrose wrote:

feldon30 wrote:

1. +heals/+spell/+CA - the overall effect IS a diminishing returns curve (piecewise linear approximation as each particular spell reaches its cap and stops improving).  Its NOT always 50% either, cleric reactives cap out lower, as do spells with a DoT or AOE component.

What is it then since it's NOT always 50%?

Bah, Feldon, you type as if ya know more yet ya don't care sharing it so instead you care enough to point out the errors. Bah!!! Dang you for leaving us hangin. Daaannngg Yoouuu. lol

[Thunndar316]

Ugh.

This gives me a headache.  Why does the system have to be so over complicated?  It's totally unnecessary.

[SkyBee]

No joke, and to add to it all. The expansion just had to introduce yet another attribute called the Critical Mitigation. OMG. Now another attribute to think about. This is even worse since i've heard the critical mitigation attribute is only useful against the new expansion raid mobs.

[EasternKing]

+spell +ca +heal is not 50% of listed amount, its 50% + crit, so for example your Ca does 500-1000 damage min benefit is +250.  max benefit is, 50% of 1300 (maxhit+crit) for +650.

[krrr]

feldon30 wrote:

Haste/DPS mod Hard Cap: 200 points. The 200 points equates to 125%.

believe 112% crit would be 100 pct on hghest orange mob.

Example A and B of how the math is borked. If you don't see it, then you must work for SoE. Anywho, you've distracted me with your post, so I shall respond...

Also, there is no hard cap on Critical Mitigation. You may well need 200-300 Critical Mitigation next expansion.

First, I'm gonna call it Critical Avoidance cause it's not Mitigation. You have a percent chance to reduce damage. It is not uncontested block, or a block of any type really. Anyway, considering Critical Avoidance is a percent chance, I'm not quite sure how you are going to get much over 100%, but I guess you're welcome to try. By the way, the Advanced Void Shard Armor sets come with about 15 points of Critical Avoidance. And apparently you get another 10-15 points if you have a high main stat (yes, this brings up the issue that -- according to SoE -- scouts should have high AGI ). Not sure how someone is gonna get over 100% Critical Avoidance unless SoE starts putting 15 and 20 points of Critical Avoidance on every piece of gear (highest I've seen so far is 4 points).

1: it is not avoidance it is mitigation. you mitigate some (or all ) of critical damage bonus. (if mob got crit multiplier of 1.5, and you got 40 crit. miti., mob will hit you for 1.1x of normal damage on crits)

2: there is no %s for crit. miti. It is counted in points, each point mitigates 1% of crit. multiplier so it can go higher then 100.

3: if you look at raid sets they already got more crit. mit. if you look at some contested loot you'll see even more crit. miti.

[SkyBee]

Um, last i've heard avoidance and mitigation defined. Avoidance is when ya entirely negate damage thru block, parry, or dodge. Mitigations is when ya negate a portion absorbed damage. Pull your head of your bum and tell us how you define avoidance.

[EasternKing]

SkyBee wrote:

Um, last i've heard avoidance and mitigation defined. Avoidance is when ya entirely negate damage thru block, parry, or dodge. Mitigations is when ya negate a portion absorbed damage. Pull your head of your bum and tell us how you define avoidance.

Fyreflyte  Writes:

The way it is supposed to work, it is mitigation, not avoidance. If you feel it's bugged in some way, please stick in a bug report. I'll also refer Aeralik to this thread.

Aeralik Writes :

It's pretty simple.  If you have 30% critical mitigation then you would take the 1.3 normal critical multiplier down to a 1.0 multiplier which means you are negating the critical aspect of it.

If there is some specific aoe that is acting weird then post it but it actually does the mitigating part when its applying the damage to the target which is why the damage calculation order needed to be changed.

Fyreflyte  Writes:

Aeralik already covered all of this, but I figured I'd reiterate it. Critical mitigation only mitigates the "extra" damage the crit is doing. Excess mitigation will not cause crits to deal less damage than normal blows (that would be counter intuitive). Gear progression exists in the sense that harder mobs are going to have higher crit multipliers, requiring a greater amount of crit mitigation be worn to negate their extra damage.

hope that helps you understand and accept the fact that it is Critical Mitigation and not Avoidence.

[SkyBee]

Um, not for sure how ya are read'n my previous post there, but I was agreeing with ya's in how it is mitigation and not avoidance.

When Critical Mitigation would be at 100% (or whatever the max would be), then I would compare it to a critical hit Stoneskin. Generally, the Stoneskin effects explicitly state in the drescription that so and so damage is absorbed. Thus, when Critical Mitigation is maxed, then all critical hit damage is absorbed otherwise the damage is mitigated according to the Critical Mitigation %.

I swear. I hope folk get it now. All this has been reiterated in at least, i think, four differant variances.