Armourer reaction arts badly bugged

[Jrral]

Ohiv wrote:

Might i suggest a way to capture the +'s and -'s ever round to our chat log that in turn can be put to a log file. I "believe" that would have helped in identifying this.

Second this. Having the round results and the events that come up in the log along with the other messages would help with things like this. And to be honest it'd be interesting to parse the same way things like ACT parse combat logs, to get a definitive answer to "Is something I started doing helping or not?".

[tmg]

Ahhhh. TYVM.

[Kaldrin]

For the original topic of this thread, the reaction arts for my, now 56 armorer are still not creating positive results. From what I can tell any positive result just happens to be a roll that turns a positive result and has nothing to do with the reaction arts or counters. I tried keeping track of the events, but by the end of the 3rd writ I think I managed to get a negative result on most of the successful counters to events. Tonight was about the fourth time I've bugged this since it's been 'fixed'. Still nothing. Oh yeah, and Armorer's Insight didn't buff when I successfully countered that one too.

[Torri]

I think my Armorer ran into this same problem last night. There she is, hammering away at the forge when an event pops up. She takes the appropriate action to counter the event, the icon goes green and the sucessfully countered the event message pops up, but the numbers overhead are -55 + 40. It seemed to happen on about half the events that used the firey red icon. It didn't stop her from finishing her level 50 rush orders at 51 with time to spare, but it's pretty annoying, especially when I seem to get critical sucesses about 25% of the time when I'm NOT paying attention and don't properly counter things with my Tailor. To try and work around it I started using durability counters when that event icon popped up if I was close to the finish and I don't recall getting a negative number that way

[Rhouvus]

Just to make sure the voice of people gets heard:I have the same problem with my level 50 armorer. Rush orders have become a dangerous game.I /bug'ed it, too.

[Jrral]

I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?

[SilkenKidden]

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?

Thanks for tuning me in on what it means to "necro a thread."  Never knew that before.  I think it is better that you use an old thread, especially in a case like this where the problem was never resolved. 

I just outgrew my problems with rush orders.  My armorer is high enough now to finish the rush orders despite the bugs.  However, I'm not sure that seeing a red durability number is a bug when you have done a successful counter.  Not sure it isn't either.  A low number might be considered success and a high negative as failure.  In one of these armor threads, there is a good write-up on what to expect in the numbers. 

[Oh]

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?

Leveled my alchemist from 56-80 on writs this weekend didn't see a problem with it (surprizingly I see hickups from time to time), did 3 levels on my armorer today (ran out of parts what's new) and didn't see it either. >.< My armorer is level 65 now soo it might be the level range he's in. Now what I did see is when there was no event to be countered I sometimes got HUGE durability hits and sometimes when I am spaming durability (1, 2 and 3) I sometimes get diddly for durabilty a round. Can't say they are bugs thou. /shrug

[Lodrelhai]

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

I hate to necro this thread, but... it's baaaack! I'm crafting on my alchemist and notice that occasionally when I successfully counter an event I still get red numbers for durability that tick. Then I switched over to my armorer and bingo, almost every event shows a durability loss even when I successfully counter it (and yes, there are events where the countering art won't cost durability). I'd say my armorer sees it at least 3 events out of 4, which is a lot more often than my alchemist saw it.I've submitted /bugs on it. Anyone else seeing it again?

Negative durability can still happen with a successful round.  The basic results for success/failures, unaltered by any counters, are as followsCritical Failure: -100 durability, -50 progressFailure: -50 durability, 0 progressSuccess: -10 durability, 50 progressCritical Success: 0 durability, 100 progress.A successful counter means you are (or should be) guaranteed a success or crit success for the round.  However, unless the counter(s) you use add at least +10 durability, you may still get a durability hit.  And if the counter you use is the -durability/+progress one, that durability hit can be as much as -18 (depending on crafter class and level).  However, it should never be worse than that, so if you're getting -50 durability on a round where you successfully countered an event, that definitely needs to be /bug'd!

[Jrral]

Lodrelhai wrote:

A successful counter means you are (or should be) guaranteed a success or crit success for the round.  However, unless the counter(s) you use add at least +10 durability, you may still get a durability hit.

Then there's something seriously weird between my alchemist and my armorer. When my alchemist counters an event, I only occasionally get a durability loss and mostly the progress gain is  +100 before arts (I'm using +progress counters, and accounting for the -durability/+progress art). With my armorer I'm always ticking -10 or -50 durability on a successful counter before arts are factored in. And I don't think I'm getting a critical success that often on my alchemist to account for it. I may simply be confused here, but there's a big difference in behavior between the two.

[Calthine]

Something to remember is that successfully countering an event only guarantees that you start the round with a "normal" result of -10/+50.  There's still a bunch of stuff that can occur after that.(see this huge flow chart Domino gave me last Fan Faire.  Her detailed explanation of the tradeskill process can be found at http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides...html?guide=1057 - scroll down to Exactly how does the mechanics of item creation work?  Dang, I knew that'd come in handy one day.)

[Caet]

I just continued the thread on EQ2TC documenting another instance of this. I'm not certain that it's the same problem that I caught earlier, but the new version is quite real.http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq2/sh...55833#post55833

[Caethre]

OOC.

I have just seen this thread for the first time (because someone bumped it I guess).

At the time of writing this, Valerianna is currently a level 58 armourer.

At the time this thread was raised, I did not have an Armourer. However, I noticed that once Valerianna entered her 50s, successfully countering events whilst working on rush orders was not guaranteeing a successful round in the combine process, indeed, it was seemingly making no difference one way or the other to the chance of a failed round. To be honest, I do not know if this started at level 50 or before, I can only say I *noticed* it at this level range.

I /bugged this a couple of weeks back (l cannot recall when).

This is still an issue. I was making some combines tonight, this time not part of a rush order, and I am still getting rounds where an event appears, I counter it successfully, and it still results in a standard failed round.

Just posting to give feedback that this is still happening.

[Oakleafe]

Calthine wrote:

Something to remember is that successfully countering an event only guarantees that you start the round with a "normal" result of -10/+50. There's still a bunch of stuff that can occur after that.(see this huge flow chart Domino gave me last Fan Faire. Her detailed explanation of the tradeskill process can be found at http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides...html?guide=1057 - scroll down to Exactly how does the mechanics of item creation work? Dang, I knew that'd come in handy one day.)

Thanks for the link Calthine, but I'm afraid the point is that the "guarantees" bit is NOT working.From the linked explanation, I think one of the following two bits are failing to happen: "It then checks for a reaction event that guarantees success or failure.""If you were successful it will check if it was a critical success; if not it checks for critical failure."I can imagine that the latter sentence could be an IF-THEN-ELSE piece of code.  Or more accurately, that it was but the ELSE got lost and that piece of code is executing regardless.Kind of boggling that this bug has been going since February!

[Ghouti]

Hi Guys,

 regarding the topic of this thread, i read this thread a few months ago when i started a new armorer. And wanted to comment that the same problem happened to me too, once my armorer hit lvl 50. Before that time succesfully countering an event always lead to a positive result, but since lvl 50 it's random either positive or ... negative.

 Haven't seen any news about this, latest patch didnt fix it either. Any word about this problem ?

[SilkenKidden]

Oakleafe wrote:

Calthine wrote:

Something to remember is that successfully countering an event only guarantees that you start the round with a "normal" result of -10/+50. There's still a bunch of stuff that can occur after that.(see this huge flow chart Domino gave me last Fan Faire. Her detailed explanation of the tradeskill process can be found at http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/guides...html?guide=1057 - scroll down to Exactly how does the mechanics of item creation work? Dang, I knew that'd come in handy one day.)

Thanks for the link Calthine, but I'm afraid the point is that the "guarantees" bit is NOT working.From the linked explanation, I think one of the following two bits are failing to happen: "It then checks for a reaction event that guarantees success or failure.""If you were successful it will check if it was a critical success; if not it checks for critical failure."I can imagine that the latter sentence could be an IF-THEN-ELSE piece of code.  Or more accurately, that it was but the ELSE got lost and that piece of code is executing regardless.Kind of boggling that this bug has been going since February!

Sounds like you are a programmer, Oakleafe.  The process you described actually happened in many AS/400 COBOL programs when IBM added a new function "continue" as an enhancement for the old function "next sentence".  Both methods were left in the language, but "next sentence" was labeled obsolete. .  There was a tricky difference in the results when one was substituted for the other in a convoluted "nested if."  Unfortunately, not all programmers appreciated the ramifications and jumped in to simply replace the outmoded code with the new.   As a result code that had not been executed in years was now creating havoc.

Thank you, Calthine.  I downloaded that flow chart.  It is interesting.  However, I need to find a way to darken the ink.  Maybe Photoshop will do it.

[Oakleafe]

Ghouti wrote:

Hi Guys,

 regarding the topic of this thread, i read this thread a few months ago when i started a new armorer. And wanted to comment that the same problem happened to me too, once my armorer hit lvl 50. Before that time succesfully countering an event always lead to a positive result, but since lvl 50 it's random either positive or ... negative.

 Haven't seen any news about this, latest patch didnt fix it either. Any word about this problem ?

As far as I can tell the Devs and QA cannot replicate what we see and so don't really believe there is still an issue.  They did do a "fix" a while back but I don't believe that fix was for the problem as originally described.  It's been my personal opinion for some time that until someone captures the action, and posts a link to YouTube or whereever, that this issue will not be resolved.  I did change one of my characters to a newbie armourer to try and do this but with TSRs accusing me of "stuff", with the changes to crafted items that removed wanted gear and with the whole increased adventure-XP scenario I killed off my project.If any armourers who are still affected by this bug are willing to take the time to capture the crafting action so the Devs and QA can see exactly what is happening then I for one with laud you as a hero. P.S. Yeah Silken, I'm a programmer

[Whilhelmina]

I'm currently level 54 armorer and I never saw any problem at any tiers and was able to complete rush orders at each level. I'm not sure there is still a problem.

[Oakleafe]

Whilhelmina@Storms wrote:

I'm currently level 54 armorer and I never saw any problem at any tiers and was able to complete rush orders at each level. I'm not sure there is still a problem.

Why mention rush order completion?  That's just a potential by-product of the actual issue, and if you are paying attenbtion yopu can still complete rush orders anyway (unless very unlucky).If you are going to contribute at least say something like "... crafted for 2 hours and all reactions gave the appropriate success results ...", so that we can see that you understand the issue (as many have not).  A response along these lines will be better respected and will allow others, if they are still experiecing the issue, a chance to counter with similar details.Ghouti reports that there is still an issue so I'd suggest that it is still in existence.  Please remember (or at least note) that this is affected by the RNG, so it is likely that some players will be affected more than others (yeah, that does mean that I don't think the RNG is truly random).I still say that we need someone to capture a video of what happens if this is going to be addressed.  If there's no video then there's no proof (as a video is the only way to capture the numbers and the actions together).

[Bratface]

I agree that rush orders can still be done even with the bugged armorer reaction arts, I did it but it took longer than other classes (I have all 9 epic'd) and I could not multitask while doing it because it could go bad very quickly even when hitting every event properly. I had to keep on top of it every second or risk losing the combine or failing the writ. Eventually I was able to shave time off the writs, but that was only after she was much higher in level, before that it was a close call even with every skill boosting item you could put on her.I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they always reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.The event numbers +/- durability/progress at the end of a round should be put into a chat channel so it can be recoded and studied, as it is now we would have to video it to prove what is happening when it would be so much easier to prove whether it is broken or not by having those numbers feed into a chat channel.Actually I don't think I could record them since I have a ratonga armorer and she barely sees the numbers since they show at the tippy-top of the forge and she is so tiny. I wish they were character relative instead of being relative to the forge =/

[Ghouti]

Bratface wrote:

I agree that rush orders can still be done even with the bugged armorer reaction arts, I did it but it took longer than other classes (I have all 9 epic'd) and I could not multitask while doing it because it could go bad very quickly even when hitting every event properly. I had to keep on top of it every second or risk losing the combine or failing the writ. Eventually I was able to shave time off the writs, but that was only after she was much higher in level, before that it was a close call even with every skill boosting item you could put on her.I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they always reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.The event numbers +/- durability/progress at the end of a round should be put into a chat channel so it can be recoded and studied, as it is now we would have to video it to prove what is happening when it would be so much easier to prove whether it is broken or not by having those numbers feed into a chat channel.Actually I don't think I could record them since I have a ratonga armorer and she barely sees the numbers since they show at the tippy-top of the forge and she is so tiny. I wish they were character relative instead of being relative to the forge =/

After a few more days and few more lvls i cant conclude otherwise that it is bugged, seems to happen mostly with countering heat reactions. As for being able to prove it, video might indeed work but never done that, i was thinking of making screenshots with time being shown (in seconds) one showing you countered an reaction and the other the +/- durability/progress, but to get that time shown clearly any ideas how to do that ?

 Also what ive noticed compared to pre lvl 50, is that countering some reaction used to give me some power, and now it doesnt, which means i have much bigger power problems then before (from none to watch out during rush orders), anyone else notice this too ?

Despite all this i can still do rush orders, but where i used to have 4+ min left, now it's 2-3 min unless things really bum up at the end. Gonna send a /bug see if they might do something with it, perhaps if we all send one they might see its not just a one-person problem ?

[EQ2Magroo]

Not quite sure what's wrong with Armorer reaction arts, but I'm always either low or out of power on my Armorer when crafting. It been the same all the way from level 20 until level 50 where I'm currrently stalled I have a level 80 Woodworker, Provisioner, Carpenter, Alchemist and Jeweler and none of them have ever had a power problem at all.Very strange...

[Oh]

Adeyia@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Not quite sure what's wrong with Armorer reaction arts, but I'm always either low or out of power on my Armorer when crafting. It been the same all the way from level 20 until level 50 where I'm currrently stalled I have a level 80 Woodworker, Provisioner, Carpenter, Alchemist and Jeweler and none of them have ever had a power problem at all.Very strange...

The power issue is one I run across with a few different TS classes. Basically there are a few ww and sage off the top that when you succesfuly counter an art you will gain power. Alchemist get health (yea my monk leaves his haste buff up is how I found that one out). The way to really solve the lack of power while crafting is simple, craft nekid with good food then you won't have an issue with power. On my druid when doing rush order writs I have to do it nekid else I will blow through power really fast, my woodworker never has a power problem. The other alternative you could do is use 12 and 45 more then you use 3 and 6 since it's those two that actually use power. Me personally I'd just rather strip and use the full guantlet.

[Ghouti]

Well the thing that bothers me the most, is that im pretty confident that until lvl 50 i'd actually would gain power when countering certain reactions, i never even bothered looking at my power during those lvls as i never ran out, but at the moment im more focused on power during rush orders then on other things as i need to have plenty of reserve, i know you can craft neked but i never fancy that so i am indeed using 12 en 45 and every now and then 3 and 6 when power permits. But it just made me wonder might the gaining of power also have been lost along with always succes on countering reactions ?

[Calthine]

Something to remember is you got new arts at level 60, and I'll bet they use more power than your old ones.

[Oakleafe]

Bratface wrote:

I agree that rush orders can still be done even with the bugged armorer reaction arts, I did it but it took longer than other classes (I have all 9 epic'd) and I could not multitask while doing it because it could go bad very quickly even when hitting every event properly. I had to keep on top of it every second or risk losing the combine or failing the writ. Eventually I was able to shave time off the writs, but that was only after she was much higher in level, before that it was a close call even with every skill boosting item you could put on her.I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they always reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.The event numbers +/- durability/progress at the end of a round should be put into a chat channel so it can be recoded and studied, as it is now we would have to video it to prove what is happening when it would be so much easier to prove whether it is broken or not by having those numbers feed into a chat channel.Actually I don't think I could record them since I have a ratonga armorer and she barely sees the numbers since they show at the tippy-top of the forge and she is so tiny. I wish they were character relative instead of being relative to the forge =/

Mrs D Mother ma'am mentioned a similar issue to this (her issue including wings!).  The solution is to switch into (via the mouse scroll wheel) first person view and then look up.

[Terron]

Bratface wrote:

I find it very telling than when people ask in channel about why their correct reactions to events are giving them critical failures I ask if they are an armorer and they always reply that they are. This doesn't happen with other classes.

I haven't had a problem with my lowbee armourer, but I don't bother trying to counter events.

[Ghouti]

Hi Guys,last night i spent a few more hours tradeskilling and managed to reach lvl 60 (and later on 61), upon which i made some excavation hats (lvl 60 item as i got the quest at lvl 60), i then noticed something different compared to the previous lvls.

Upon countering an heat event it would refresh my mana (which is how its supposed to be or at least was before lvl 50), well after making 10 off those hats i decided to be sure and make a lvl 60 rush order, and again countering heat events resulted in refreshing my mana. As for that during those 16 items countering a heat event never failed.

After that i wanted to check up on the lvl 50 stuff, so i started two lvl 59 rush orders. And yup what do you guess ... countering a heat event dit not result in refreshing my mana as it did for lvl 60 items. I tried a few loose items between lvl 56 and 59 that i didnt get from rush order and same result. During all that time im pretty confident at least once or twice countering an event lead to a failure, but it wasnt often and not that noticable (could be due to the 1,1% success increase from hat or new skills).

 But this would conclude to me that making lvl 50 to 59 items is bugged, at the very least countering an heat event should be the same and refresh mana. And i have the feeling its probably related to the failure (as if it doesnt handle the countering correctly). Countering some of the events did heal me as they did for lvl 60+ so cant be sure if there are other events that are bugged but heat definitaly.

I sent a /bug report and hopefully QA can reproduce it, perhaps if you our fellow armorer could try this aswell, at whatever lvl you are make a few items and see if countering heat events refreshes your mana, and if you can make a few items between 50 and 59 and see if that still refreshed your mana.

Dunno much about coding but i have the feeling the problem is in the items and not in the armorer lvl / skills.

 Greetings Ghouti

[SilkenKidden]

Ghouti wrote:

Hi Guys,last night i spent a few more hours tradeskilling and managed to reach lvl 60 (and later on 61), upon which i made some excavation hats (lvl 60 item as i got the quest at lvl 60), i then noticed something different compared to the previous lvls.

Upon countering an heat event it would refresh my mana (which is how its supposed to be or at least was before lvl 50), well after making 10 off those hats i decided to be sure and make a lvl 60 rush order, and again countering heat events resulted in refreshing my mana. As for that during those 16 items countering a heat event never failed.

After that i wanted to check up on the lvl 50 stuff, so i started two lvl 59 rush orders. And yup what do you guess ... countering a heat event dit not result in refreshing my mana as it did for lvl 60 items. I tried a few loose items between lvl 56 and 59 that i didnt get from rush order and same result. During all that time im pretty confident at least once or twice countering an event lead to a failure, but it wasnt often and not that noticable (could be due to the 1,1% success increase from hat or new skills).

 But this would conclude to me that making lvl 50 to 59 items is bugged, at the very least countering an heat event should be the same and refresh mana. And i have the feeling its probably related to the failure (as if it doesnt handle the countering correctly). Countering some of the events did heal me as they did for lvl 60+ so cant be sure if there are other events that are bugged but heat definitaly.

I sent a /bug report and hopefully QA can reproduce it, perhaps if you our fellow armorer could try this aswell, at whatever lvl you are make a few items and see if countering heat events refreshes your mana, and if you can make a few items between 50 and 59 and see if that still refreshed your mana.

Dunno much about coding but i have the feeling the problem is in the items and not in the armorer lvl / skills.

 Greetings Ghouti

Good QA analysis.  Clear explanation.  I hope it gets some attention.

[Domino]

Oakleafe wrote:As far as I can tell the Devs and QA cannot replicate what we see and so don't really believe there is still an issue.  We believe you are seeing an issue, but believing that and reproducing it and locating the cause are different things! This is a very elusive occurrence, and this post alone shows not even every full-time armorer has seen it. I know QA have looked into it several times, and I'm certain they will continue to do so as time permits, however there are many other things that need testing more urgently (e.g. the entire upcoming expansion). Since this issue is not actually preventing anybody from levelling or progressing or making items, it's not going to get top priority over issues that ARE breaking the game for somebody. I'm sorry we don't have infinite time and resources to dedicate to tracking this down right now, but alas, with a finite number of staff and a finite amount of time, prioritizing is a fact of life. It certainly does not mean we aren't aware of it, and we absolutely do want to track it down when we can spend that time on it. Unfortunately there's a lot of other things we also need to track down and fix with a higher priority. (*mutters about the Senior Crafter Service quest, for example*)