Aggro bug, or which buff is causing me to get aggro on pulls?!?!

[SpineDoc]

I've been pulling my hair out over this lately, as I've been playing in a lot of groups and notice some odd behaviour, it finally [Removed for Content] me off enough earlier today due to a couple of deaths in HOF due to this behaviour.When the tank pulls I will wait until I see his first taunt before casting my first reactive, I do NOT precast (ahh the old pre LU13 days).  What happens maybe one in 10 pulls is that as the tank runs back towards the group with his pull the mob(s) will come directly to me and attack me with absolutely no provocation, no reactive heal, no damage done, just me sitting there waiting for the tank to make it back.I'm assuming it's maybe a buff on the tank.  I have redoubt, praetorate and benediction on the tank.  I'll usually save glory of combat for whoever is hitting the most like a swashie, but if there are no melee dps in the group then I will put it on the tank.It was suggested to me that maybe it was glory of combat, so I took it off the tank to experiment and I still get the random attacks on pulls, but they almost seemed lessened, although I didn't test it for too long.  The other culprit I am suspecting is one of the buffs that provide a damage absorb.On any account is anyone else seeing this?  Any comments or conclusions?

[Path]

Taunt resist.  Sometimes warden/fury razorcoat will cause it to go to the healers even when it lands.  I know sometimes when Im tanking and my taunt gets resisted the first person it goes to is the inquis/templar.More likely Taunt resisted.

[Tash 1]

Benediction.I usualy always have my group reactives going all the time. Helps me stay alive if the mobs charge me and I feel tanks are good enough to grabb the aggro back.Its truly very rare to grabb any adds due to the precast tbh and if its an issue just move out of range for the ractives while the Tank bodypulls and make sure he in range when he gats back. That way you dont have to spend all that time casting your grp reactives since its allready upp when tank gets back.

/Hugs Tash

[Antryg Mistrose]

I haven't died on the pull outside a PUG for a long time now, even when hammer pulling, and I normally precast both reactives and repent.That may be because the  2nd thing I cast on the mobs (mark is first) is Overconfidence, and I've got full points in Complacency and cast it often.If those fail, sometimes there's sometimes time enough for racial deagro, tinker deaggro or FDPuting off casting reactives until after the pull wastes precious time, and leaves the tank far less protected, so it really is a good thing to avoid.

[SpineDoc]

So it's a range issue, I'm too close to the tank when he pulls?  This would make sense as I like to melee, with my melee AA's and my plate armor even though I may not DPS too much, it's just plain fun.On the issue of precasting, I stopped playing not long after LU13 so got used to NOT precasting my reactive.  So it's a range issue as well?  If I precast a reactive the mob will ALWAYS go right for me, but you guys are saying if I'm out of range for the mob then it won't come after me if I precast a reactive?  I'll have to experiment with that, I certainly would like to precast if possible.

[Tash 1]

Well the most probably reason why you get aggro in about 10% of the case is that your stoneskin (Benediction) triggers before the Tank have build aggro. You don't see any heal msg for stoneskin.

The range suggestion where just for if you are worried that the trigger of the reactives can bring adds. If you are out of range the Reactives do not trigger and you don't get adds and no hate either. But that's just as I see it a last resort if the Tank really do not want any reactives.

I remember when the Social aggro where introduced and it was a pain for the Shamans and Clerics. But it seem that something has been tweaked so I am pretty sure that most are back to precasting as a norm. And as I and Antryg said templars do not normally get killed by that anymore.

I do not have the Overconfidence build but the tanks are fast enough to re gain aggro if I happened to get it and even if not the Plate make me able to take some pounding If I have to.

/Hugs Tash

[SpineDoc]

Thanks, I 'll have to play with that.  It had been my experience that if I precast a reactive the mob would always come straight for me if the tank was bodypulling.  This was with me inside the group fairly far away from where the tank was pulling.  For me to stand farther away just is not feasible in most dungeons where the mobs are tightly packed.I'll have to play with it a bit more though, I'm going to start precasting more from now on to see how it works.  I think I'm going to precast my single reactive then immediately cast my group reactive, then debuff, etc.

[Tylia]

The last time I was in Veksar I was precasting Repent on the tank and the mobs would run straight to me almost every pull until I quit precasting.  I thought at first maybe it was the grp reactive that was the cause so I stopped precasting that.  Once I stopped precasting anything I stopped pulling aggro.  I don't know what the deal was, but it was annoying.

[SpineDoc]

After playing with this for a good level I must say I'm quite confused at those of you precasting.  Clearly when you precast and the tank body pulls the mob comes straight for you.  I've reduced this issue in that in a heavy pulling group I'm keeping up my group reactive all the time, and if the tank is good he will peel the mob quickly so I only get hit once or twice at the most.  But it makes for a hairy time with an overpull.Yes I can make it work, but I can't see the benefit of precasting versus the risk.  In even the harder dungeons, with a tank 4-5 levels lower than me, with mobs yellow to the tank, just casting my reactive after he establishes hate is more than enough.I'll continue to play with it, and if the tank is good and peels quickly I will precast, but don't see it as a requirement, at least in group play.

[Kyom]

As far as I know, stoneskin doesn't trigger aggro. It doesn't count as a heal to start with.If my tank trains us somewhere, I don't get aggro if stoneskin is up and he gets beaten on.I hardly have problems with precasting but if you don't want to. daze the mobs on incoming and/or start the big direct heal while you see them coming. By the time they are closer the heal will land and the tank already got some aggro and you will heal pretty much after some of the first incoming damage.

[Enoa]

stoneskin doesnot give you hate.

To the OP.  your tanks have sucked.    I hardly ever get agro on the pull and I precast everything!   The only time i get in trouble is if we get out-of encounter adds and then usually a deagro will do to send it back to the tank.

If it's a consistent problem have the tank pre-cast intercede on the pull on you.   willsave you a hit at least.   Also if there are control effects on the tank he wont be able to snap agro back so keep him cured.   Also anticipate where the tank will pull to and stand there.   Do NOT run away.   If he doesn't have melee range on the mob he can't get agro back.

Oh yeah and dont group with SK's

[Graywindnz]

I have also noticed this happen, Our Temp would do nothing no stoneskin proc and after the Pally in grp pulls using a spell and landing 1 taunt the mob runs past him and wails on the poor temp and this happens alot. (also note the mystic in grp was pre warding as well)It was mostly happening in Veksar and sometimes in RE2

[Tylia]

I went to Veksar again and did not have any problems that time.  I had my grp reactive up and precast Repent before the pull each time.  I don't know if it was just a glitch that one time or what the deal was.  I'll have to go several more times to know if it was just a one time thing or if there is a continuing problem.

[SpineDoc]

You know the funny thing is I have a 70 guard and I rarely see a mob on a body pull go to the healer.  I'm not sure if they are precasting though, I don't think I've ever really taken note of precasting one way or the other as a tank.I hear you guys saying the tank sucks, but the issue is that the mobs go directly for me whether the tank sucks or is awesome.  If the tank is doing his job then he will peel if off immediately, but I still get one or 2 hits per mob, add that up on a group pull.  This of course doesn't even take into account a taunt resist, or a mob out of range of the taunt, taunts do have refresh times.So I'm still stuck with the question if precasting is worth it (disregarding the initial question that something still occasionally draws aggro on a pull WITHOUT precasting).  IMO in the harder groups I've been in precasting doesn't help too much, although with group reactives and a tank who quickly establishes aggro it's not a problem.  But it's not a problem to NOT precast either.  Sigh, but I'm still no closer to answering why I'm randomly getting agro on pulls when I'm not precasting.

[Tash 1]

Had decided to stay away from this thread but ah well.

Stoneskin and aggro. If ppl say it do not generate aggro I guess its not a problem. My own experience after doing some testing raiding pre EoF it turned out that with Stone skin up I would get aggro in about 10% of the cases and it would even draw social adds. This was a long time ago and I guess things might have changed and stoneskin do not generate aggro or never have. But feel free to try it out for yourself.

Precasting worth it or not? I guess its up to your own and the tanks play style tbh. I always precast and it works for me.

If the encounter is easy like any zone except RE2 and probably Veksar. (Haven't been there yet, have had other things to do :/ )I precast the group reactive and the go dps doing my worst to grab aggro from the tank and very rarely have a chance to do so. But if I manage all the joy for me.

If the Zone is hard I precast both my group and my single cause if I do not have both reactives up and running all the time its much harder to keep the group and tank alive. I try to never let my reactive be down and rather sacrifice some triggers renewing it to fast than risk to stand without them.

One reason to always precast the grp reactive is that you have better chance to survive if some mob decide to go for you than the tank anyway.

But a well I think only you can find a play style they fits you.

Good luck /Hugs Tash

[Meauvena]

Another Pre-Caster here...

Single, Group and Repent ... depending on the situation and not spec'd for lowering hate (what a useless ability).  I'm always next to the tank swinging away and rarely have aggro issues on the pull.  Have grouped with all the tank types and regularly debuff on pull, when clear of socials.

If you get hit ... Smack Them Back  You are in plate ... and if the tank can't take it back before you die ... Get a New Tank!

[Aquilist]

To the folks saying stoneskin does not give you agro, I will have to refute that. My main is a dirge and on about 10% of body pulls, I get the agro because Percussion of Stone popped on the MT on mob's first attack. The proc percentage on PoStone is 10%... Dirge's have no other agro generating buffs**, only PoStone.  Note: this doesn't explain the on-pull agro issues you're seeing as templar stoneskin is a much lower percentage proc than the agro issues seem to indicate.**buff songs are 0 agro now, thank gawd! In the early days (beta? can't recall), bards got perma-agro constantly when the MT body pulled outside of song range. The huge hate load bard's got from 5 songs taking effect when the puller came back into range was a healer's nightmare.

[Perrigrin]

I've noticed this as well, and I've both precasted, and not precasted. Before they changed it, precasting meant instant aggro to us Templars. I don't normally have group reactives running on pull however, but I think I may be spoiled with my guild's tanks, as my other party members very rarely get hit to need it. I have also noticed that if my single target reactive is STILL on the tank when he/she goes to pull the next mob, I will get aggro on incoming. I don't know how much of a difference that makes (I wouldn't think any), but I've PRE-casted the reactive before the pull and have gotten no aggro. Maybe the mobs don't like the previous pull's reactives, they want their own

[Tylia]

Zemi@Butcherblock wrote:

I've noticed this as well, and I've both precasted, and not precasted. Before they changed it, precasting meant instant aggro to us Templars. I don't normally have group reactives running on pull however, but I think I may be spoiled with my guild's tanks, as my other party members very rarely get hit to need it. I have also noticed that if my single target reactive is STILL on the tank when he/she goes to pull the next mob, I will get aggro on incoming. I don't know how much of a difference that makes (I wouldn't think any), but I've PRE-casted the reactive before the pull and have gotten no aggro. Maybe the mobs don't like the previous pull's reactives, they want their own

LOL  Finicky mobs!  Seriously though.. you might have something there.  Maybe that has been the cause with my aggro problem when I haven't been precasting.. reactives are still active at the time of the pull.

[SpineDoc]

Yes this is what I'm talking about.  If you precast you automatically get the pulls aggro on a body pull.  It's manageable either way though so seems like a personal choice.As for the other weird aggro so the consencus seems to be stoneskin?Zemi@Butcherblock wrote:

I've noticed this as well, and I've both precasted, and not precasted. Before they changed it, precasting meant instant aggro to us Templars. I don't normally have group reactives running on pull however, but I think I may be spoiled with my guild's tanks, as my other party members very rarely get hit to need it. I have also noticed that if my single target reactive is STILL on the tank when he/she goes to pull the next mob, I will get aggro on incoming. I don't know how much of a difference that makes (I wouldn't think any), but I've PRE-casted the reactive before the pull and have gotten no aggro. Maybe the mobs don't like the previous pull's reactives, they want their own

[toosexyforthis]

The aggro bug comes from the intercession buff. this buff is both time and hit dependant. If you have cast this buff and it is still on the tank when they commence a new body pull, you will pull aggro. (simple complacency will deagrro quick), or ensure that your tank waits until the intercession is gone (only 10 - 15 secs max) or simply do not cast your interecession towards the end of the fight.

Hope this helps

Toos

[Tash 1]

I do hope you are aware that you can cancel any left over reactives.../Tash

[Filroden]

Aquilistor wrote:

Note: this doesn't explain the on-pull agro issues you're seeing as templar stoneskin is a much lower percentage proc than the agro issues seem to indicate.

Templar stoneskin has the same/higher proc rate I think, especially if the templar has taken the blessings-line AA that enhances the proc rate. Mine, at Adept III, it at 11% I think (not in game atm so I cannot confirm). I think Master I is 12% fully enhanced.

[SpineDoc]

toosexyforthis wrote:

The aggro bug comes from the intercession buff. this buff is both time and hit dependant. If you have cast this buff and it is still on the tank when they commence a new body pull, you will pull aggro. (simple complacency will deagrro quick), or ensure that your tank waits until the intercession is gone (only 10 - 15 secs max) or simply do not cast your interecession towards the end of the fight.

Hope this helps

Toos

It's not intercession, at least the bug I am speaking of.  I realize intercession will get you INSTANT aggro on a body pull, but that is another matter entirely.  Seems to be the consencus is that stoneskin causes the occasional aggro, and it makes a lot of sense.  While I won't precast reactives, stoneskin on the other hand is worth the occasional aggro, it's just too nice of an effect.

[ParlMoebius]

This is actually the first I've ever heard people saying the stoneskin doesnt get aggro. 

My observation is that it does, though I've never even bothered to dig real deep on it, as it's always seemed a no brainer. 

I've just accepted it as a fact of templar life.  I wear plate, and I've got deaggro's on the ready.  Tanks need to be aware and ready.

I precast in the rare raid I participate in, and on really hard zones and/or mobs.  For the most part, it's not really necessary, but you have to make a judgement call based on your tanks skill, gear, attentiveness etc.