Fighter Class Changes, The Berserker

[Zhonata]

Aeralik wrote:

Sketchey@Blackburrow wrote:

There is an old saying that I think goes "With great buffage comes great nerfability"So I just hope the rest of the world could accept an SK being on par with a guardian...or that the powers that be let it stay that way after these adjustments roll in.  Because this is sounding pretty awesome so far.

Guardian will still be the better defensive tank after the changes its just that the others should be a lot closer than before.  Sk and Berserkers are the ones who are more aoe oriented though and should be similar in nature once the changes are all done.

Aeralik wrote:

Lets keep this thread on topic about shadowknights please.  If you have concerns about fighter balance in regards to a particular class please post it in the appropriate forum. 

Ok, so you said if we have any concerns about the fighter class balance in regards to out class particularly to make a thread, here it is.

So taking into consideration old world game play Zerker were always the AOE kings of this game. That was kinda of striped away from us by Paladins in KOS consideringing they have more AOE's on better cast timers and a Higher damage potential AOE than Destruction. We only just got this title back with our mythical. To be honest with you I have never pictured an SK as an AOE tank if anything I thought of them as the single target dps king or the other side of the coin to the Beserker. Currently the flips side of the coin is the Guardian which seriously is the major thorn in our classes side and considering they are supose to be king defensive tank majorly unblanced.

So how is it class defining and in the interest of balance in the game to make 2 classes, 3 really since the palidin is still consider number 2 for AOE DPS, have the same traits. So now we will have 3 tanks that specialize in AOE DPS? I mean the guardians already got our Auto Attack table, why should we be giving up the only thing we have any supremacy in when we just got it back. I can justify competing with shadowknight on a the parse and by all means they were in need of a boost, but to me it seems that they need to be taking the single target dps card from the guardian and not dipping into our bowl of pudding.

So you mind elaborating a bit on your comments perhaps explaining how exactly this is going to play out cause it just sounds to me like you are taking yet another attribute of the Zerker and parting it out to Quick Fix another Fighter class.

[Aull]

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Aeralik wrote:

Sketchey@Blackburrow wrote:

There is an old saying that I think goes "With great buffage comes great nerfability"So I just hope the rest of the world could accept an SK being on par with a guardian...or that the powers that be let it stay that way after these adjustments roll in.  Because this is sounding pretty awesome so far.

Guardian will still be the better defensive tank after the changes its just that the others should be a lot closer than before.  Sk and Berserkers are the ones who are more aoe oriented though and should be similar in nature once the changes are all done.

Aeralik wrote:

Lets keep this thread on topic about shadowknights please.  If you have concerns about fighter balance in regards to a particular class please post it in the appropriate forum. 

Ok, so you said if we have any concerns about the fighter class balance in regards to out class particularly to make a thread, here it is.

So taking into consideration old world game play Zerker were always the AOE kings of this game. That was kinda of striped away from us by Paladins in KOS consideringing they have more AOE's on better cast timers and a Higher damage potential AOE than Destruction. We only just got this title back with our mythical. To be honest with you I have never pictured an SK as an AOE tank if anything I thought of them as the single target dps king or the other side of the coin to the Beserker. Currently the flips side of the coin is the Guardian which seriously is the major thorn in our classes side and considering they are supose to be king defensive tank majorly unblanced.

So how is it class defining and in the interest of balance in the game to make 2 classes, 3 really since the palidin is still consider number 2 for AOE DPS, have the same traits. So now we will have 3 tanks that specialize in AOE DPS? I mean the guardians already got our Auto Attack table, why should we be giving up the only thing we have any supremacy in when we just got it back. I can justify competing with shadowknight on a the parse and by all means they were in need of a boost, but to me it seems that they need to be taking the single target dps card from the guardian and not dipping into our bowl of pudding.

So you mind elaborating a bit on your comments perhaps explaining how exactly this is going to play out cause it just sounds to me like you are taking yet another attribute of the Zerker and parting it out to Quick Fix another Fighter class.

I totally agree with you statement. Zerkers have not been the aoe kings that I was lead to believe for quite some time now. Aoe damage was one of the reasons I rolled a zerker to begin with. Both crusaders can aoe on a more consistant basis than a zerker can and with a fair consistancy can equal or surpass zerker aoe dps as well. Paladins to me are the aoe kings and have been for a while. Sk and zerkers were close before ROK in aoe damage output. What I feel is gonna happen now is that if zerkers and sk's will be more aoe oriented and similar then being able to distinguish or have class individuality will not exsist.

I still think that having six fighter classes is just to many to work with to have an actual class specialty or individuality. I always liked that certain classes were deemed better at certain situations than others. Anyway I will wait till expansion is released and see what happens.

I am glad to see that Aeralik is posting and that is good to see. At least having some idea is better than none at all.

[LygerT]

i'll let you guys in on a little secret, we're still the best AE DPS plate tank. if pallies are beating us on the parse then you have lopsided group makeup.

the only reason we're currently not seeing our potential is because of the lack of AE content, put a stack of mobs in front of us and we still compete with swashbucklers and warlocks, which pallies can come close but they still trail behind us, as well as SKs.

now onto the next point, guardian was the sole single target tank for, well, since as long as i can remember. SKs, pallies and zerks all have a handful of AE tools where guards have few, though they still manage alright if specced for it but AE aggro control is the other 3 tanks duties, not guardians. put 4 mobs in front of a guardian and stand next to him, you will see how they struggle to maintain aggro on multiple mobs compared to us.

last point, what more can we ask for? well, obviously we could ask for more survivability because we don't need more AE DPS, perhaps fixing some of our buffs so that they are considered buffs again and we were always fine. BUT we lacked purpose without AE content and guardians have our DPS because we share the same subclass traits, so what we need and i expect we will be seeing is more traits that will make us more tank like guardians as was mentioned some time ago. if they were to give us more dps, the min-maxers of the class will be pushing beyond T2 DPS while killing trivial mobs and we shouldn't be doing that. what the class needs is content where a raid or group will point to the berserker and say "i want you!', which is sort of how i see Runneyeye 2 with the few fun fights that seem to almost be tailored to suit us.

in closing, you can't ask for everything, yes we sorely lacked something in RoK which hopefully comes back to us in TSO but you can't be a superior to tank, have the best DPS and raid utility. even though HP regen is a joke, we still have decent group buffs, we still are the best DPS tank, we just were a bit shy in the tanking department and lacked AE content to give us something to do. so if we get more tanking ability and the other tanks are equals with us in different ways you shouldn't be jealous of them, pallies may have an easier time than us but we chose this class and knew it was a button mashing hack and slash class, i don't evny them for having to sit still to cast though as well as SKs who really needed the boost. don't get me wrong, we need some tweaks to bring us even as tanks but try not to go overboard and have real suggestions go unheard.

[Xalmat]

Well said Lyger.

[Aull]

I agree and very well stated Lyger.

[Zhonata]

We are the best AOE DPS class currently with our mythical we were not before mythical. Not to say that doesnt change with the up coming expantion again. Zerker have the Highest Damage potential out of any of the Fighter class IMO, but Monks still out dps us by a lot in single target fights. We do high end tier 2 dps in single target encounters - Monks can do mid range to high tier 1 dps.

If you remember back to DOF guardians had the suck dps they couldnt even solo for gods sake decently, up until they got our auto attack table they were never even consider close to dps, but they were still considered the better raid tank. As for guardians struggling to keep aoe aggro yes it is true they do not have the same AOE dps as we do, but as far as holding mobs they are just fine. Reinforcement + agilty line FTW, 40% chance to gain 1 hate postion on up to 4 mobs in front of them ever like what min and half. So again compared to us right now yeah we are better, but again they arnt that bad off with the current content. When you start to see more than 4 mob aoe encounters what they lack in AOE aggro will show, but then again out mythical only hits 4 mobs to so we will have to start acutally using our AOE attack, lowering our single target dps and possible loosing aggro on the main target. Bottum line guardian are the Kings of defensive tanking they should be at the opposite end of the DPS sepectrum than the offensive fighters.

I agree completly with what we as a class need and that is why I ask Aerlik to talk about what he is doing with our class. However I have never viewed Sk's Personally as AOE tanks and it just seems to me again that they are parting out more of our class traits to fix other classes.

[LygerT]

thats understandable and of course i hate to see some of our class traits turn to other classes BUT it seems to balance things out we will be in the end more like a guardian as a tank i would have to guess as to the hints being put out there. so for giving up our AE dps to other classes we will become more of an actual tank, being able to take hits better, giving raids more reason to use zerks as main tanks, is that so bad to look forward to?

guards can do alright on AE aggro with agility spec but they still have no control of when we peel a mob off when we want to by stacking our temp dps buffs and going to town, they even DPS decently on AE fights but they still can't hold aggro as well as some other classes can. sure reinforcements is up for 12 seconds every minute and a half but what about the other 1:18?

[DasanW]

Personally, from playing a Zerker from day 1 of the game, I can say that I would welcome any changes in regards to surviveability, and to bring us more into line with Guards.  I can see the area that could be a change, as Lyger stated, is in our buffs, to those with more defensive base since we can easily hit caps in our offensive stats. 

[Gisallo]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

thats understandable and of course i hate to see some of our class traits turn to other classes BUT it seems to balance things out we will be in the end more like a guardian as a tank i would have to guess as to the hints being put out there. so for giving up our AE dps to other classes we will become more of an actual tank, being able to take hits better, giving raids more reason to use zerks as main tanks, is that so bad to look forward to?

guards can do alright on AE aggro with agility spec but they still have no control of when we peel a mob off when we want to by stacking our temp dps buffs and going to town, they even DPS decently on AE fights but they still can't hold aggro as well as some other classes can. sure reinforcements is up for 12 seconds every minute and a half but what about the other 1:18?

I do have a problem with this though Lyger.  I am not someone really begging to be made an equal MT to a guard, just a more viable OT would be fine.  If I wanted to play a Guard I would betray and the main thing that makes us different than the Guard, beyond "color" abilities, other than surviveability is of AE dps.  Since they gave Guards our AA table and kept their surviveability, I think simply increasing our surviveability with little change to how we damage things would be more than acceptable (or give the guards back "their" AA table).  If we lose this in return for Surviveability we are not balancing out a dang thing, all we are doing is maintaining status quo balance wise while changing how the class is played.  In the end this is change only for changes sake and I would prefer not to change under those circumstances.

I really think to "balance" things in regards to us versus the guardian is to either A nerf the guardian, or B increase our surviveability with OUT altering our damage in either single target or AE encounters.

[LygerT]

i think you just mistook some of my statements. i don't foresee them giving all tanks equal traits and i'm sure we will still keep our AE DPS edge but still not quit be as durable of a tank as a guardian is. i never said i think we will lose our DPS to gain tanking ability, that is how some expansions work, you gain without being forced to give in return.

[Zhonata]

Its possible that Aeralik isnt done working with our class, but again was asking to see what we would be getting in general. Any chance for that?

[Bruener]

I think that the OP is taking what Aeralik said way out of context.  Aeralik said that SKs and Zerks were going to be the AE tanks...this does not mean that SKs will have the AE dps that a Bezerker does.  This is already somewhat the case with how the SK mythical was designed, where it increases hate to any engaged target.  Same with Death March which increases AE agro tremendously.  So yeah, SKs are going to see an increase to DPS some...but it is a long ways to go to get to Bezerker AE dps.

Just saying there is a HUGE difference between being king tank of AE DPS and being an AE tank.

[LygerT]

i don't think anyone but Aeralik knows what is going on with the new tank updates so far, i think he wants to roll them all out at the same time instead of having one side screaming that the other is overpowered now.

what would be so horrible about giving SKs the same amount of AE DPS that we have? just because guards got everything doesn't mean that we should remain so bitter that we would want to pin down other classes that were far worse off than we were for much longer. SK is the offensive crusader, and a harder one to play than zerker tbh(standing still to cast), i still can't see why anyone would be jealous if they would have to work harder to do the same AE DPS as us. we all are a bit worried that these tank tweaks will throw some further ahead than others but a wait and see approach is better than bickering about the possibilities.

[Endorplasmic]

Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote:

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

thats understandable and of course i hate to see some of our class traits turn to other classes BUT it seems to balance things out we will be in the end more like a guardian as a tank i would have to guess as to the hints being put out there. so for giving up our AE dps to other classes we will become more of an actual tank, being able to take hits better, giving raids more reason to use zerks as main tanks, is that so bad to look forward to?

guards can do alright on AE aggro with agility spec but they still have no control of when we peel a mob off when we want to by stacking our temp dps buffs and going to town, they even DPS decently on AE fights but they still can't hold aggro as well as some other classes can. sure reinforcements is up for 12 seconds every minute and a half but what about the other 1:18?

I do have a problem with this though Lyger.  I am not someone really begging to be made an equal MT to a guard, just a more viable OT would be fine.  If I wanted to play a Guard I would betray and the main thing that makes us different than the Guard, beyond "color" abilities, other than surviveability is of AE dps.  Since they gave Guards our AA table and kept their surviveability, I think simply increasing our surviveability with little change to how we damage things would be more than acceptable (or give the guards back "their" AA table).  If we lose this in return for Surviveability we are not balancing out a dang thing, all we are doing is maintaining status quo balance wise while changing how the class is played.  In the end this is change only for changes sake and I would prefer not to change under those circumstances.

I really think to "balance" things in regards to us versus the guardian is to either A nerf the guardian, or B increase our surviveability with OUT altering our damage in either single target or AE encounters.

I thought this post was kind of neat and shows a different insight into the game. I personally think through the use of AAs you should be able to spec if you want to put out more damage in a shorter amount of time, but may take a hit on surving (ie. snap up adds quick, the OT role) or take a hit on damage output and have more surviving traits (spec a MT).I have the pleasure to be able to play both the warriors and as far as damage output goes on single target, wow it's insanly close and on multiple adds if I'm not top 3 on the zerk then I'm doing something wrong *cough* SoH is so fun *cough* *cough* 10k parses over fights that are longer than 3 minutes *cough* .... Man I need some Fisherman's Friend for this cold. I will wait to see what comes of beta and how they've remixed the AA trees before thinking out anything else since it does seem that they are trying to level the playing field out a bit. I do hope that we see some more options for snap agro other than having our mythical with the garbage +5 hate thing on gibe. (don't get me wrong, love the gibe, just hate how it's even more situational now)

[Aeralik]

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Its possible that Aeralik isnt done working with our class, but again was asking to see what we would be getting in general. Any chance for that?

I would suggest signing up for the beta if you want an early preview of the changes. I can say however, that I know you guys really loved the regen stuff but alas it has been removed for other things. I know you guys will really hate that and I apologize but it was just far to overpowered.

[Gisallo]

Aeralik wrote:

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Its possible that Aeralik isnt done working with our class, but again was asking to see what we would be getting in general. Any chance for that?

I would suggest signing up for the beta if you want an early preview of the changes. I can say however, that I know you guys really loved the regen stuff but alas it has been removed for other things. I know you guys will really hate that and I apologize but it was just far to overpowered.

Oh god dude, I HATE it when you do this.  It either means you did get rid of regen and replaced it withsomething useful in more situations, or simply changed it to something other than regen but still a heal (my idea has always been keep the numbers the same but make it like a HoT so you can have it on a faster tick), or you have had a REAL bad day and want to stir the pot .

Well boys and girls hope to see more interesting posts in a week when I come back from Vegas.  Have fun. 

[Kaarim]

I think both fighters zerkers and shadowknights will be happier next expansion. Glad that you all are getting the tweaks/upgrades needed, zerkers are my second favorite tank besides SK but i'm biased of course! lol Lookin forward to a wave of aoe kings come backGoodluck zerkers!!

[Endorplasmic]

Aeralik wrote:

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Its possible that Aeralik isnt done working with our class, but again was asking to see what we would be getting in general. Any chance for that?

I would suggest signing up for the beta if you want an early preview of the changes. I can say however, that I know you guys really loved the regen stuff but alas it has been removed for other things. I know you guys will really hate that and I apologize but it was just far to overpowered.

You took away regen?!?! /ragequit /wristsSeriously, this is probably the best thing I've heard since they figured out a way to slice bread all at once.Also I've applied already for the beta, so maybe you can hack the Gibson and get me in on some of that I was in for RoK and with the help of a guildmate brought to light the whole adrenaline not working the entire time thing. That may or may not hurt my chances, but thought I'd give you a bit of history to help the cause.*rubs chin* without regen I wonder how our mythical changes then.... Interesting....

[LygerT]

i'm still waiting for my beta invite...

[Zhonata]

No health regen.... But... but..... However will I be able to stay alive now.... There goes our surviabilty.... WE ARE DOOMED !!!!

 P.S. Still waiting for beta Invite to

[Airbornee]

Waiting on beta invite as well... remember that you'll need some top end zerkers to test out some of those changes, and I'm one of 5-ish   I'm a zerker MT (everything up to and including Trakanon) as well if that helps my chances!

[Powers]

Aeralik wrote:

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Its possible that Aeralik isnt done working with our class, but again was asking to see what we would be getting in general. Any chance for that?

I would suggest signing up for the beta if you want an early preview of the changes. I can say however, that I know you guys really loved the regen stuff but alas it has been removed for other things. I know you guys will really hate that and I apologize but it was just far to overpowered.

Wait, what do you mean by "regen stuff"?  Are you removing the "Blood Rage" line?  Or the "Perseverance" Acheivement Ability?Powers  &8^]

[Xalmat]

Who's to say it's not both?

[LygerT]

well hopefully the tank changes offset that some, believe it or not, health regen does help a fair amount while soloing but not as much as it used to in previous expansion. i still notice it when it's not there though.

in raid/group though, it is complete and utter garbage, i think we all could agree on that.

[Powers]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

well hopefully the tank changes offset that some, believe it or not, health regen does help a fair amount while soloing but not as much as it used to in previous expansion. i still notice it when it's not there though.

in raid/group though, it is complete and utter garbage, i think we all could agree on that.

No way! I use those all the time.  I can't tell you how many times I've finished a fight with a sliver of health that wouldn't have been there without the regen.Powers  &8^]

[Airbornee]

I can't tell you how many times I've been hit by a raid mob for over 15k damage that the hp regen didn't help at all on.

 Edited to say that remember, if they change it its going to be to something that will help us in solo, group, AND raid.. so if you're serious about actually missing regen you'll either have something equivalent or better(hopefully )

[LygerT]

well yes that was my point, something that can absorb or avoid a few K damage while solo. i solo around KC sometimes for fun and without the regen sometimes i know i would faceplant, even sometimes with it the mobs get a string of hits or i get a string of misses and it doesn't matter either way.

[Powers]

OK, here's the truth: I have no idea what Aeralik's winky-smilie is supposed to indicate.  Is he joking about removing regen?  Or is he joking about us being upset about it?  Becuase I, for one, really enjoy having my already-high regen double when my health drops below 30%.  And that's not a joke or sarcasm.Powers  &8^]

[Zhonata]

Hmmm 13.5k health. So at 30% you have around 4k health. Raid mobs hit for 6k+ Minimum = Useless. Heroic Mobs can double attack in ROK easily for 30-40% of you life in one attack. So to put it activating at 30% is a joke it doesnt have time to take effect. Combine this with the fact you only recieve around 300 Health every 6 sec which mean the mobs has likely hits 2-3 times in the period.

Be glad it is going BYe bye.

[Elanjar]

Aeralik wrote:

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Its possible that Aeralik isnt done working with our class, but again was asking to see what we would be getting in general. Any chance for that?

I would suggest signing up for the beta if you want an early preview of the changes. I can say however, that I know you guys really loved the regen stuff but alas it has been removed for other things. I know you guys will really hate that and I apologize but it was just far to overpowered.

I'm going to assume this is not sarcasm and theres actually going to be something new to replace it which makes me wonder...Are they also going to be changing the Perserverance Line of our Zerker tree, as well as our mythical ability (the 300% hate part). Just curious, doubt he'll be back in the thread soon but something to ponder.